Taylor Mays - how fast did he really run?

[hawaiiansteel]

NFLN video shows Mays beating Holliday

Posted by Mike Florio on March 2, 2010 8:29 PM ET


The controversy regarding the "official" 40-yard times from the Scouting Combine has gotten only more interesting, thanks to NFL Network's brilliant creation of a simultaneous comparison of video of the fastest players who ran in Indianapolis.

Return specialist Trindon Holliday officially ran a 4.34. USC defensive back Taylor Mays officially ran a 4.43.

And the video shows Mays beating Holliday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDhYKZHKh4Q


Speaking of Mays' official time, our pal Rich Eisen of NFL Network said after presenting the comparison, "It has to be flawed."

So how does this happen? Damned if we know, but the same sense of urgency that the powers-that-be applied to the Wonderlic procedures after word leaked four years ago of Vince Young's single-digit result should be applied to improving the timing system of the 40-yard dash.

Universities throughout the country put on track meets during which times are accurately measured. Why not use the same level of precision when giving players a chance to make the kind of impression that will help determine when they get drafted and, in turn, how much they get paid?

The problem likely traces in part to the fact that the timing commences not upon the firing of a gun but on the first motion of the player. So the easy fix is to make this faux track meet more like a real track meet, and to tie the timing to the gun or the whistle or whatever.

[calmkiller]

Not only him but everyone else at the combine? The system they currently use is clearly flawed.

[anger 82&95]

On ESPN radio this morning the announcers were shrieking about Mays running a 4.2 plus change in the forty… Then, it morphed into a high 4.4. Incidentally, I’m still waiting to hear how Joe Haden, who has basically run a 4.4 forty since birth, managed to run a 4.7. Great system they there at the combine this year.

[RuthlessBurgher]

40 times are relevant for Al Davis and Al Davis only. All the rest of the savvy personnel guys use the combine to interview guys first and foremost and do medical checks. There are some agility drills that can give an idea about how guys are able to change direction, which has some correlation to skills that most players need, but straight line speed coming out of a sprinter's stance is essentially pointless, since no one ever needs to do that in an actual game situation. It is the most overrated aspect of the combine by far.

Even if Taylor Mays did run a 4.2 something and Joe Haden did run a 4.7 something, I would still draft Haden if both were available when we picked. The tapes show that one guy can cover and make plays on the ball, while the other guy is a big hitter who lacks ball skills. I'll take the guy that can cover and make plays on the ball when the pads are on in an actual game over a guy who can run fast in a straight line in his underwear.

The game tapes matter a great deal. The 40 times matter very little to anyone except for Al Davis and people on message boards that blow things out of proportion. The best part about the 40 yard dash is that it artificially elevates inferior players ahead of us, thereby dropping better football players into our lap.

Have you ever heard about dominant 40 times for guys like Troy, Ben, Heath, Santonio, etc.? No...the track stars got drafted ahead of them and many of them were busts, but it allowed those football players to fall into a range where we could get the best player for us, even if he did not flash blazing speed at the combine. I think Colbert's excellent run in the first round has been helped out by other stupid GM's who get easily seduced by artificial numbers.

[steelblood]

40 times are relevant for Al Davis and Al Davis only. All the rest of the savvy personnel guys use the combine to interview guys first and foremost and do medical checks. There are some agility drills that can give an idea about how guys are able to change direction, which has some correlation to skills that most players need, but straight line speed coming out of a sprinter's stance is essentially pointless, since no one ever needs to do that in an actual game situation. It is the most overrated aspect of the combine by far.

Even if Taylor Mays did run a 4.2 something and Joe Haden did run a 4.7 something, I would still draft Haden if both were available when we picked. The tapes show that one guy can cover and make plays on the ball, while the other guy is a big hitter who lacks ball skills. I'll take the guy that can cover and make plays on the ball when the pads are on in an actual game over a guy who can run fast in a straight line in his underwear.

The game tapes matter a great deal. The 40 times matter very little to anyone except for Al Davis and people on message boards that blow things out of proportion. The best part about the 40 yard dash is that it artificially elevates inferior players ahead of us, thereby dropping better football players into our lap.

Have you ever heard about dominant 40 times for guys like Troy, Ben, Heath, Santonio, etc.? No...the track stars got drafted ahead of them and many of them were busts, but it allowed those football players to fall into a range where we could get the best player for us, even if he did not flash blazing speed at the combine. I think Colbert's excellent run in the first round has been helped out by other stupid GM's who get easily seduced by artificial numbers.


I would generally agree. But, when every team has one or two coaches or scouts timing the 10 yard split and the forty itself, it is difficult to argue that it really doesn't matter to anyone but Al Davis.

[Lebsteel]

40 times are relevant for Al Davis and Al Davis only. All the rest of the savvy personnel guys use the combine to interview guys first and foremost and do medical checks. There are some agility drills that can give an idea about how guys are able to change direction, which has some correlation to skills that most players need, but straight line speed coming out of a sprinter's stance is essentially pointless, since no one ever needs to do that in an actual game situation. It is the most overrated aspect of the combine by far.

Even if Taylor Mays did run a 4.2 something and Joe Haden did run a 4.7 something, I would still draft Haden if both were available when we picked. The tapes show that one guy can cover and make plays on the ball, while the other guy is a big hitter who lacks ball skills. I'll take the guy that can cover and make plays on the ball when the pads are on in an actual game over a guy who can run fast in a straight line in his underwear.

The game tapes matter a great deal. The 40 times matter very little to anyone except for Al Davis and people on message boards that blow things out of proportion. The best part about the 40 yard dash is that it artificially elevates inferior players ahead of us, thereby dropping better football players into our lap.

Have you ever heard about dominant 40 times for guys like Troy, Ben, Heath, Santonio, etc.? No...the track stars got drafted ahead of them and many of them were busts, but it allowed those football players to fall into a range where we could get the best player for us, even if he did not flash blazing speed at the combine. I think Colbert's excellent run in the first round has been helped out by other stupid GM's who get easily seduced by artificial numbers.
Ruthless, do you still want Micah Johnson and Myron Rolle in your mock draft? They had extremely slow 40 times! :lol: :wink:

[JUST-PLAIN-NASTY]

Guys...NFL Network made a mistake. Holliday had on Gold shoes on for his first run. See below. Unless Holliday changed his shoes for his second run, that isn't him. I think it is Dickerson.

Holliday
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSxNbRqqSgQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDhYKZHKh4Q

[JUST-PLAIN-NASTY]

The flaw is...I believe the "electronic time" at the combine is actually started by a human hand on first movement. Then it picks up 10-20-40 and registers. The teams go by hand held times anyway. Apples for Apples. Because many players don't run at the combine or are even invited. They run at their prodays. Most players are smart because they run on faster tracks on their proday than Indy. It is more important how they play in pads than run in shorts.

[ANPSTEEL]

40 times are relevant for Al Davis and Al Davis only. All the rest of the savvy personnel guys use the combine to interview guys first and foremost and do medical checks. There are some agility drills that can give an idea about how guys are able to change direction, which has some correlation to skills that most players need, but straight line speed coming out of a sprinter's stance is essentially pointless, since no one ever needs to do that in an actual game situation. It is the most overrated aspect of the combine by far.

Even if Taylor Mays did run a 4.2 something and Joe Haden did run a 4.7 something, I would still draft Haden if both were available when we picked. The tapes show that one guy can cover and make plays on the ball, while the other guy is a big hitter who lacks ball skills. I'll take the guy that can cover and make plays on the ball when the pads are on in an actual game over a guy who can run fast in a straight line in his underwear.

The game tapes matter a great deal. The 40 times matter very little to anyone except for Al Davis and people on message boards that blow things out of proportion. The best part about the 40 yard dash is that it artificially elevates inferior players ahead of us, thereby dropping better football players into our lap.

Have you ever heard about dominant 40 times for guys like Troy, Ben, Heath, Santonio, etc.? No...the track stars got drafted ahead of them and many of them were busts, but it allowed those football players to fall into a range where we could get the best player for us, even if he did not flash blazing speed at the combine. I think Colbert's excellent run in the first round has been helped out by other stupid GM's who get easily seduced by artificial numbers.

While there are certainly varying degrees of weight placed upon a 40 time- (frequently based upon player position), I believe, actual speed is critical to almost every scout.

Not just the 40 time but the intervals as well. (not reflecting on shuttle/cone drills etc...)

as example.
If Taylor Mays truly runs in the high 4.2s- I am certain a bunch of scouts are looking at him- thinking: Maybe we can coach him to play SS.

But- if he runs a 4.5- well then, you are looking at a guy who is going to be playing OLB in a couple seasons. (which is where I think he is going to end up anyway. He'll put on 15-20+ lbs and be a 4-3 OLB.)

[Dee Dub]

That was so bunk. There is no way Mays ran a 4.43. In fact we know he was below 4.34. And that my friends is freakish. Now if teams and so-called experts would realize this guys is best coming forward and that is just as important to a team as it is for a player who can go backwards out of a back peddle and be able to change directions in and out of cuts/breaks.

Why on God's green earth do they ever ask these safeties to get low, back peddle, turn and go at the combine/work outs when 80% of their game is actually moving forward? :roll:

Asking a Taylor Mays to start crouched over and back peddle is really not all that important. He will hardly ever have to do that while playing his position.

[Lebsteel]

Guys...NFL Network made a mistake. Holliday had on Gold shoes on for his first run. See below. Unless Holliday changed his shoes for his second run, that isn't him. I think it is Dickerson.

Holliday
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSxNbRqqSgQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDhYKZHKh4Q
But, Dickerson ran a 4.40, so Mays was faster than that, but who cares, right? :wink:

[ikestops85]

40 times are relevant for Al Davis and Al Davis only. All the rest of the savvy personnel guys use the combine to interview guys first and foremost and do medical checks. There are some agility drills that can give an idea about how guys are able to change direction, which has some correlation to skills that most players need, but straight line speed coming out of a sprinter's stance is essentially pointless, since no one ever needs to do that in an actual game situation. It is the most overrated aspect of the combine by far.

Even if Taylor Mays did run a 4.2 something and Joe Haden did run a 4.7 something, I would still draft Haden if both were available when we picked. The tapes show that one guy can cover and make plays on the ball, while the other guy is a big hitter who lacks ball skills. I'll take the guy that can cover and make plays on the ball when the pads are on in an actual game over a guy who can run fast in a straight line in his underwear.

The game tapes matter a great deal. The 40 times matter very little to anyone except for Al Davis and people on message boards that blow things out of proportion. The best part about the 40 yard dash is that it artificially elevates inferior players ahead of us, thereby dropping better football players into our lap.

Have you ever heard about dominant 40 times for guys like Troy, Ben, Heath, Santonio, etc.? No...the track stars got drafted ahead of them and many of them were busts, but it allowed those football players to fall into a range where we could get the best player for us, even if he did not flash blazing speed at the combine. I think Colbert's excellent run in the first round has been helped out by other stupid GM's who get easily seduced by artificial numbers.

Bravo ... that's what I've been saying. I don't think you should ever move a guy up your draft board because he runs a fast 40. I think that the 40 time should only drop you DOWN the draft board if you are freakishly slow.

Other than that only use the 40 times as a tie-breaker.

[JUST-PLAIN-NASTY]

Guys...NFL Network made a mistake. Holliday had on Gold shoes on for his first run. See below. Unless Holliday changed his shoes for his second run, that isn't him. I think it is Dickerson.

Holliday
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSxNbRqqSgQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDhYKZHKh4Q
But, Dickerson ran a 4.40, so Mays was faster than that, but who cares, right? :wink:

It would have been nice to see Holliday & Ford run together. Like I said, even with the "electronic" time there is room for human error. But who is to say the NFL Network Sim Cam is accurate. We are talking about tenths of a second here. It is flawed...the finish was Ford(4.28), Mays(4.43), Best(4.35), Dickerson(4.40), & Chaney(4.54). Looks more like Mays ran the 4.35 and Best ran the 4.43. That's why everyone in the building has a hand held.

[Dee Dub]

I say 4.31. Yep that's what I am going with. Look at the simulcam yourself. Ford is at 4.28 and Holiday is at 4.34 and that is .06 apart. Mays is nearly right in between so I would add .03 to his time from Ford's and that comes out to 4.31...blazing.

http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/03/02/did- ... or00000002 (http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/03/02/did-the-nfl-screw-up-taylor-mays-time/?ncid=txtlnkusspor00000002)

[SteelerOfDeVille]

Have you ever heard about dominant 40 times for guys like Troy, Ben, Heath, Santonio, etc.?
while i I get your point... HOWEVER... yes... both Troy and 'Tonio were had "track speed" in their respective years due their 4.3's in the 40... in fact, i was thinking troy had a 4.2's unoficially as well

[JUST-PLAIN-NASTY]

I say 4.31. Yep that's what I am going with. Look at the simulcam yourself. Ford is at 4.28 and Holiday is at 4.34 and that is .06 apart. Mays is nearly right in between so I would add .03 to his time from Ford's and that comes out to 4.31...blazing.

http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/03/02/did- ... or00000002 (http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/03/02/did-the-nfl-screw-up-taylor-mays-time/?ncid=txtlnkusspor00000002)

As we already stated...That isn't Holliday...He isn't in the video. That is Dickerson and Best behind Mays. Holliday wore yellow shoes on his 4.34 run. The link is above. I would agree, however, it looks like a 4.3 time.

[Dee Dub]

[quote="Dee Dub":2mpwvsh3]I say 4.31. Yep that's what I am going with. Look at the simulcam yourself. Ford is at 4.28 and Holiday is at 4.34 and that is .06 apart. Mays is nearly right in between so I would add .03 to his time from Ford's and that comes out to 4.31...blazing.

http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/03/02/did- ... or00000002 (http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/03/02/did-the-nfl-screw-up-taylor-mays-time/?ncid=txtlnkusspor00000002)

As we already stated...That isn't Holliday...He isn't in the video. That is Dickerson and Best behind Mays. Holliday wore yellow shoes on his 4.34 run. The link is above. I would agree, however, it looks like a 4.3 time.[/quote:2mpwvsh3]

Your're right..plus Holliday wore black...

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-combine/0 ... at-combine (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-combine/09000d5d816a08b5/Specialist-at-combine)