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View Full Version : So to some here, it isnt about what they do on the field????



Dee Dub
03-02-2010, 03:13 PM
I cant believe what I am reading here on this forum. Knocking Joe Haden because he didnít run a fast 40, or Chad Jones because he only did 9 reps off 225, yet on the other hand praising Taylor Mays because he ran a blistering 40 at over 6 ft 3 and over 225?? I heard someone actually say Haden was overrated and they are using this 40 time to justify this claim? Wow!!

Funny that some of these same people who are now praising Mays for his sick 40 time were bashing him for not making a enough plays on the football field. Or at least because he didnít get many INTís his sophomore or Junior year.

I guess that is the era we are now in. Öwhere a players work outs are more important than what he actually did on a football field.

Wow!! :roll:

flippy
03-02-2010, 03:20 PM
We're Al Davis wannabees ;)

papillon
03-02-2010, 03:26 PM
We're Al Davis wannabees ;)

That's funny right there and I don't care who ya are.

Pappy

birtikidis
03-02-2010, 03:28 PM
I agree with Dee Dub, I'm more of a game film guy then a measurables guy.

Oviedo
03-02-2010, 03:29 PM
I cant believe what I am reading here on this forum. Knocking Joe Haden because he didnít run a fast 40, or Chad Jones because he only did 9 reps off 225, yet on the other hand praising Taylor Mays because he ran a blistering 40 at over 6 ft 3 and over 225?? I heard someone actually say Haden was overrated and they are using this 40 time to justify this claim? Wow!!

Funny that some of these same people who are now praising Mays for his sick 40 time were bashing him for not making a enough plays on the football field. Or at least because he didnít get many INTís his sophomore or Junior year.

I guess that is the era we are now in. Öwhere a players work outs are more important than what he actually did on a football field.

Wow!! :roll:


I'll take credit for saying that Haden is IMO overrated. I have watched a ton of UF games living here in FL. Watch how he played against teams like Alabama and then watch how he played against teams where the Gators jumped out to huge leads and their opponents were forced to pass on every play. It was easy for the gator's secondary in most of their games.

I never said Haden won't be a decent pro but I'll go on record as saying he won't be close to Rod Woodson, Asante Samuel or Darrell Revis.

SteelAbility
03-02-2010, 03:34 PM
I cant believe what I am reading here on this forum. Knocking Joe Haden because he didnít run a fast 40, or Chad Jones because he only did 9 reps off 225, yet on the other hand praising Taylor Mays because he ran a blistering 40 at over 6 ft 3 and over 225?? I heard someone actually say Haden was overrated and they are using this 40 time to justify this claim? Wow!!

Funny that some of these same people who are now praising Mays for his sick 40 time were bashing him for not making a enough plays on the football field. Or at least because he didnít get many INTís his sophomore or Junior year.

I guess that is the era we are now in. Öwhere a players work outs are more important than what he actually did on a football field.

Wow!! :roll:

You definitely have a point. However, neither are poor workout results (or strong workouts) to be overlooked. The workouts say something about the physicality of a player and that says something about their longevity. It doesn't say everything, but it can't be ignored.

As far as Chad Jones BP. He should be able to get 9 reps at 190 with no working out whatsoever. The dude is 221. C'mon man! I'm not a pro football player and I was able to get 10 touch-n-go reps at 180 at one point several years ago. The combine benching is watered down with all the bouncing at the bottom. Those 9 are really more like 6 or 7 (touch-n-go). That is BAD. That translates, eventually, into upper body injuries that gouge into playing time. He's playing now at the next level. He's going to have a difficult time shedding blocks when he's getting manhandled in the upper body.

Dee Dub
03-02-2010, 04:06 PM
I cant believe what I am reading here on this forum. Knocking Joe Haden because he didnít run a fast 40, or Chad Jones because he only did 9 reps off 225, yet on the other hand praising Taylor Mays because he ran a blistering 40 at over 6 ft 3 and over 225?? I heard someone actually say Haden was overrated and they are using this 40 time to justify this claim? Wow!!

Funny that some of these same people who are now praising Mays for his sick 40 time were bashing him for not making a enough plays on the football field. Or at least because he didnít get many INTís his sophomore or Junior year.

I guess that is the era we are now in. Öwhere a players work outs are more important than what he actually did on a football field.

Wow!! :roll:


I'll take credit for saying that Haden is IMO overrated. I have watched a ton of UF games living here in FL. Watch how he played against teams like Alabama and then watch how he played against teams where the Gators jumped out to huge leads and their opponents were forced to pass on every play. It was easy for the gator's secondary in most of their games.

I never said Haden won't be a decent pro but I'll go on record as saying he won't be close to Rod Woodson, Asante Samuel or Darrell Revis.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhh...I dont think anyone is saying he is Woodson, Samuel, or Revis. What is being said is that he is considered the best CB in this dradft. Nothing more...nothing less.

Saying he is overrrated is saying that isnt true. Do you not consider him to be the best or one of the best CB's in this draft?

Dee Dub
03-02-2010, 04:15 PM
.....as far as Chad Jones BP. He should be able to get 9 reps at 190 with no working out whatsoever. The dude is 221. C'mon man! I'm not a pro football player and I was able to get 10 touch-n-go reps at 180 at one point several years ago. The combine benching is watered down with all the bouncing at the bottom. Those 9 are really more like 6 or 7 (touch-n-go). That is BAD. That translates, eventually, into upper body injuries that gouge into playing time. He's playing now at the next level. He's going to have a difficult time shedding blocks when he's getting manhandled in the upper body.

Chad Jones also played baseball. One of his throws from the outfield was clocked at 95 miles an hour. He has also pitched for LSU. There could be a very good reason why he isnt upper body strong. :idea:

Lebsteel
03-02-2010, 04:27 PM
.....as far as Chad Jones BP. He should be able to get 9 reps at 190 with no working out whatsoever. The dude is 221. C'mon man! I'm not a pro football player and I was able to get 10 touch-n-go reps at 180 at one point several years ago. The combine benching is watered down with all the bouncing at the bottom. Those 9 are really more like 6 or 7 (touch-n-go). That is BAD. That translates, eventually, into upper body injuries that gouge into playing time. He's playing now at the next level. He's going to have a difficult time shedding blocks when he's getting manhandled in the upper body.

Chad Jones also played baseball. One of his throws from the outfield was clocked at 95 miles an hour. He has also pitched for LSU. There could be a very good reason why he isnt upper body strong. :idea:
Absolutely makes no sense to me Dub. I don't think there is a direct correlation there at all. Jones has not played baseball (pitcher) since June 2009. He has had plenty of time since then to work on his bench press. It is a test. He possibly didn't study very hard for that test. It is not like we are saying he should have got 20 reps. I HOPE that was not his best effort and that he has a minor pec/shoulder issue or just felt a tweek and stopped OR maybe it was all a ruse so he would drop into our lap in Rd. 2. :wink: I'd be OK with that............... as long as he got a little stronger in his upper body.

SteelAbility
03-02-2010, 04:49 PM
.....as far as Chad Jones BP. He should be able to get 9 reps at 190 with no working out whatsoever. The dude is 221. C'mon man! I'm not a pro football player and I was able to get 10 touch-n-go reps at 180 at one point several years ago. The combine benching is watered down with all the bouncing at the bottom. Those 9 are really more like 6 or 7 (touch-n-go). That is BAD. That translates, eventually, into upper body injuries that gouge into playing time. He's playing now at the next level. He's going to have a difficult time shedding blocks when he's getting manhandled in the upper body.

Chad Jones also played baseball. One of his throws from the outfield was clocked at 95 miles an hour. He has also pitched for LSU. There could be a very good reason why he isnt upper body strong. :idea:

Could be. What if it isn't? The point is the idea of gamble and risk are now up in the air.

SteelAbility
03-02-2010, 04:55 PM
As (the beloved) John Madden once said ...

"It's not about how much you can bench press or how fast you can run. It's ... it's ... it's ... about 'How do you play FOOTBALL?'" :P

NJ-STEELER
03-02-2010, 05:11 PM
.....as far as Chad Jones BP. He should be able to get 9 reps at 190 with no working out whatsoever. The dude is 221. C'mon man! I'm not a pro football player and I was able to get 10 touch-n-go reps at 180 at one point several years ago. The combine benching is watered down with all the bouncing at the bottom. Those 9 are really more like 6 or 7 (touch-n-go). That is BAD. That translates, eventually, into upper body injuries that gouge into playing time. He's playing now at the next level. He's going to have a difficult time shedding blocks when he's getting manhandled in the upper body.

Chad Jones also played baseball. One of his throws from the outfield was clocked at 95 miles an hour. He has also pitched for LSU. There could be a very good reason why he isnt upper body strong. :idea:

back up QB?


the 9 reps is a definate red flag, you do need strenght to bring down some of these guys

hopefully he shows better on his pro day


I think the steeler FO puts more emphasis on game tape then combine numbers

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
03-02-2010, 05:20 PM
Just makes you go back to the game tapes and look. Have to put Haden up against players now who ran fast or had good cone times. Wait for his pro-day and re-evaluate.

Steel Life
03-02-2010, 05:21 PM
I see Dub's point, but the fact is there is more than enough evidence to support both evaluation methods. Tons of wildly successful players that have come from big-time programs or smaller schools where they dominated their competition have been complete flops in the pros, whereas some nobodies in college - whether in big or small schools - continue to be the backbone of the league, filling out rosters & in some cases becoming Pro-Bowlers & Hall of Famers. Scheme, the players around you, level of competition...luck, these all factor in how players are perceived & it's up to the scouts & coaches to take in all the information to determine who's really worth the money. Success in the NFL is earned & you don't get it automatically..not by being from a big-time program, not by being an All-American, not by being a 1st Round Pick, not by being a Heisman winner - only by being better than the other guy on the roster. And as with every year, there will be a bunch of low-round guys who beat out or last longer than the 1st round or "name" guys

Look at our team's history for reference...
HOFers & Others -
Stallworth...Alabama A&M, 4th Rnd.
Jack Lambert...Kent St., 2nd Rnd.
Donnie Shell...S. Carolina St., UDFA
Mike Webster...Wisconsin, 5th Rnd.
Mel Blount...Southern, 3rd Rnd.
Rocky Blier...ND, 16th Rnd.
Greg Lloyd...Ft. Valley St., 6th Rnd.

Current -
Aaron Smith...N. Colorado, 4th Rnd.
Silverback...Kent St., UDFA
Wille Parker...UNC, UDFA
Ryan Clark...LSU, UDFA
Ike Taylor...Louisiana-Lafayette, 4th Rnd.
Jeff Reed...UNC, UDFA

hawaiiansteel
03-02-2010, 05:30 PM
I agree with Dee Dub, I'm more of a game film guy then a measurables guy.



i think all of these things are just pieces of a puzzle you are trying to put together. when making an educated guess it is best to try and have as much information as possible.

the NFL Combine allows you to see the players side by side, get their measurables, interview them and get medical information...all useful bits of information.

but when it's all said and done, the game film is the most important tie-breaker.
can the guy play the game of football?

feltdizz
03-02-2010, 05:39 PM
A player shouldn't jump from round to round based on a few test...

But I also think a lot of game film is bunk. Like someone pointed out.. if your team is up 20 and you know the other team is pressed for points it's easier to jump routes or get after the QB.

In the SEC you have to watch game film of DB's covering WR's but you cannot use their INT's as proof of ball hawking skills.. the QB play in the SEC was a joke..

playing Alabama only showcases tackling skills..

I don't think it's wise to say bust because of a bench press or a 40 time.

Chadman
03-02-2010, 06:15 PM
All have decent arguments on this topic.

Here's the thing- most teams (read MOST- ie, not the Raiders) will have a pretty in depth scouting report on the players they look at from game film, or actual eyeballing of players at gametime.

So they go to the combine with players ranked according to what they've seen on the field.

Where the combine comes in handy is when 1, 2 or more players are ranked kinda equally- say all the FS's the Steelers looked at had mid 1st to mid 2nd round grades. The combine tests can then be used to refine your search- perhaps they had Mays, Nate Allen & Earl Thomas ranked equally- with Mays showing such amazing numbers at the combine, perhaps he moves up to the top of that 3 man grouping now.

It was said earlier that the combine tests shouldn't move a player up & down rounds, which is true to a point. It can certainly move players up & down 1 or even 2 rounds, depending on the value of the position- for example, the #1 FB might test similar to the #2 FB, but #1 can go in Round 3, but #2 go in Round 6, because of the value of the position. But generally, combine results will factor in when a few players are grouped together on most draft boards. The OT's in this draft are probably the best example- there are what? 5 possible 1st round OT's, with great debate over their rankings. Chances are, the combine will dictate which OT goes 1st, all the way through to 5th.


Keep in mind also, teams look for different things at the combine- it's not always 'who is faster' that dictates #1 on value boards. Don't dismiss other tests, and INTERVIEWS.