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View Full Version : All this talk about Steelers being home for castoff players



SanAntonioSteelerFan
01-27-2010, 09:21 AM
I'm no expert at all in drafting and trading strategy, I need to say that first in case it's not obvious.

But, I've been feeling kind of :wft when I read posts about maybe we can pick up this CB because he's getting cut, or that O lineman because he's getting cut, etc. A fair amount of the times, the players being discussed aren't even starting on their teams, and they definitely have not been outstanding.

Our problems were pretty much because our starters couldn't compete well in the NFL. When I read about the possibility of replacing them with other mediocre-at-best players, I just cringe inside.

I understand we can only take what is available. But does anyone think there are other ways to get high quality players for our team? Would it be worth trading up and giving a lot of draft picks away in the draft? Should we shoot our whole wad for this upcoming season, put all our eggs in that basket so to speak?

In the NFL can teams make deals with players under contract, like in baseball - ... "we'll give you two first round picks and a 2nd round pick for Revis NOW", can that be done?

Thanks for listening and explaining!

stlrz d
01-27-2010, 09:28 AM
With a salary cap it's not possible to have "high quality" players at every spot. You have a few studs and then have to sprinkle "blue collar" guys into the mix.

It's all about finding those "bargain" guys who fit the system and contribute without breaking the bank so you can keep the "high quality" guys too.

Oviedo
01-27-2010, 09:29 AM
I'm no expert at all in drafting and trading strategy, I need to say that first in case it's not obvious.

But, I've been feeling kind of :wft when I read posts about maybe we can pick up this CB because he's getting cut, or that O lineman because he's getting cut, etc. A fair amount of the times, the players being discussed aren't even starting on their teams, and they definitely have not been outstanding.

Our problems were pretty much because our starters couldn't compete well in the NFL. When I read about the possibility of replacing them with other mediocre-at-best players, I just cringe inside.

I understand we can only take what is available. But does anyone think there are other ways to get high quality players for our team? Would it be worth trading up and giving a lot of draft picks away in the draft? Should we shoot our whole wad for this upcoming season, put all our eggs in that basket so to speak?

In the NFL can teams make deals with players under contract, like in baseball - ... "we'll give you two first round picks and a 2nd round pick for Revis NOW", can that be done?

Thanks for listening and explaining!

Every off season, it is an false hope of people who think buying someone elses cast offs will help you. Any decent player is automatically unaffordable and the only teams that can afford them are the crap teams with lots of cap space because they have gutted their rosters, e.g. Tampa Bay, Cleveland, Buffalo.

We should not go out of our normal way of doing business this off season because the consequences could hurt us for years. Draft and develop players, keep your best for their second contract and then let them go. That is the process.

What is hurting the process is that we don't seem to be able to develop players in a timely manner on the defensive side of the football. That is on LeBeau to fix or he needs to move on. If as Ike Taylor says the defensive playbook is twice the size of the offensive playbook that is plain ridiculous and the the only people we are outsmarting is ourselves.

Jooser
01-27-2010, 11:30 AM
I guess I'd have to give props to Cowher on this issue. He understood the philosophy that the Rooneys work under. He developed his young players and had them waiting in the wings when the stars moved on for their big payday. He only occasionally made a splash in the free agent market, but when he did, he made it count...i.e. Bettis and Greene. James Harrison is a great example of developing a player to replace a star. Again, BC did understand the process. Mike's only been around a few seasons so we'll just wait and see if he catches on. I think that this off season will be very telling.

Oviedo
01-27-2010, 12:15 PM
I guess I'd have to give props to Cowher on this issue. He understood the philosophy that the Rooneys work under. He developed his young players and had them waiting in the wings when the stars moved on for their big payday. He only occasionally made a splash in the free agent market, but when he did, he made it count...i.e. Bettis and Greene. James Harrison is a great example of developing a player to replace a star. Again, BC did understand the process. Mike's only been around a few seasons so we'll just wait and see if he catches on. I think that this off season will be very telling.

I have to disagree that Cowher did a good job developing young players. He left Tomlin with a mess on the OL and the DL with little to no depth. Same for the DB position. For LBs he let Vrabel leave and kept Haggens and kept Harrison as a back up forever while Haggens played.

On the defensive side of the ball LeBeau probably gets lots of the blame but I don't think Cowher and his staff were good at developing young players at all.

feltdizz
01-27-2010, 01:12 PM
I guess I'd have to give props to Cowher on this issue. He understood the philosophy that the Rooneys work under. He developed his young players and had them waiting in the wings when the stars moved on for their big payday. He only occasionally made a splash in the free agent market, but when he did, he made it count...i.e. Bettis and Greene. James Harrison is a great example of developing a player to replace a star. Again, BC did understand the process. Mike's only been around a few seasons so we'll just wait and see if he catches on. I think that this off season will be very telling.

I have to disagree that Cowher did a good job developing young players. He left Tomlin with a mess on the OL and the DL with little to no depth. Same for the DB position. For LBs he let Vrabel leave and kept Haggens and kept Harrison as a back up forever while Haggens played.

On the defensive side of the ball LeBeau probably gets lots of the blame but I don't think Cowher and his staff were good at developing young players at all.

Vrabel showed nothing as a Steeler IMO. Sometimes a player fits better on another team. Vrabel was really good at blitzing, maybe a little too good...

We missed on Vrabel, it happens.

RuthlessBurgher
01-27-2010, 01:15 PM
Is it even possible to be too good at blitzing?

Mister Pittsburgh
01-27-2010, 01:18 PM
With a salary cap it's not possible to have "high quality" players at every spot. You have a few studs and then have to sprinkle "blue collar" guys into the mix.

It's all about finding those "bargain" guys who fit the system and contribute without breaking the bank so you can keep the "high quality" guys too.

This is why I think that Colbert needs to draft better. Can't have as many complete failure picks. Also need to develop young players and play them sooner so they aren't just starting to play and their contract is up a year or two later. Need more out of them sooner.

feltdizz
01-27-2010, 01:22 PM
Is it even possible to be too good at blitzing?

we are talking about the cheats..
:wink:

RuthlessBurgher
01-27-2010, 01:27 PM
Every team has numerous failure picks every year. Look at New England (widely considered to be a good drafting team) over the past few seasons (too early to evaluate the most recent draft definitively):

2008 - New England Patriots
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 10 Jerod Mayo ILB Tennessee
2 62 Terrence Wheatley CB Colorado
3 78 Shawn Crable OLB Michigan
3 94 Kevin O'Connell QB San Diego State
4 129 Jonathan Wilhite CB Auburn
5 153 Matt Slater WR UCLA
6 197 Bo Ruud LB Nebraska

2007 - New England Patriots
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 24 Brandon Meriweather DB Miami (Fla.)
4 127 Kareem Brown DT Miami (Fla.)
5 171 Clint Oldenburg T Colorado State
6 180 Justin Rogers LB Southern Methodist
6 202 Mike Richardson DB Notre Dame
6 208 Justise Hairston RB Central Connecticut State
6 209 Corey Hilliard OT Oklahoma State
7 211 Oscar Lua LB USC
7 247 Mike Elgin G Iowa

2006 - New England Patriots
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 21 Laurence Maroney RB Minnesota
2 36 Chad Jackson WR Florida
3 86 David Thomas TE Texas
4 106 Garrett Mills RB Tulsa
4 118 Stephen Gostkowski K Memphis
5 136 Ryan O'Callaghan T California
6 191 Jeremy Mincey LB Florida
6 205 Dan Stevenson G Notre Dame
6 206 Le Kevin Smith DT Nebraska
7 229 Willie Andrews CB Baylor

Other than Mayo and the kicker Gostkowski, who has really lived up to their billing in those 3 drafts? Maroney is disappointing for a first rounder. Meriweather is okay. It's just a whole lot of "blah" with numerous complete failure picks. We aren't the only one not nailing all of our draft picks.

feltdizz
01-27-2010, 01:31 PM
We will develop the talent we already have. We got caught out there when Troy was hurt and it was also Gay's first year. I think Burnett and Lewis improve and we adjust our D to fit them. Is Mundy a bust?

RuthlessBurgher
01-27-2010, 01:35 PM
Is Mundy a bust?

Mundy was a 6th round pick. He's about what you would expect him to be (solely there for depth purposes...if he has to be a regular starter, something likely went wrong elsewhere).

Our other 6th round pick that year, Mike Humpal, was a bust.

ikestops85
01-27-2010, 01:37 PM
Every team has numerous failure picks every year. Look at New England (widely considered to be a good drafting team) over the past few seasons (too early to evaluate the most recent draft definitively):

2008 - New England Patriots
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 10 Jerod Mayo ILB Tennessee
2 62 Terrence Wheatley CB Colorado
3 78 Shawn Crable OLB Michigan
3 94 Kevin O'Connell QB San Diego State
4 129 Jonathan Wilhite CB Auburn
5 153 Matt Slater WR UCLA
6 197 Bo Ruud LB Nebraska

2007 - New England Patriots
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 24 Brandon Meriweather DB Miami (Fla.)
4 127 Kareem Brown DT Miami (Fla.)
5 171 Clint Oldenburg T Colorado State
6 180 Justin Rogers LB Southern Methodist
6 202 Mike Richardson DB Notre Dame
6 208 Justise Hairston RB Central Connecticut State
6 209 Corey Hilliard OT Oklahoma State
7 211 Oscar Lua LB USC
7 247 Mike Elgin G Iowa

2006 - New England Patriots
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 21 Laurence Maroney RB Minnesota
2 36 Chad Jackson WR Florida
3 86 David Thomas TE Texas
4 106 Garrett Mills RB Tulsa
4 118 Stephen Gostkowski K Memphis
5 136 Ryan O'Callaghan T California
6 191 Jeremy Mincey LB Florida
6 205 Dan Stevenson G Notre Dame
6 206 Le Kevin Smith DT Nebraska
7 229 Willie Andrews CB Baylor

Other than Mayo and the kicker Gostkowski, who has really lived up to their billing in those 3 drafts? Maroney is disappointing for a first rounder. Meriweather is okay. It's just a whole lot of "blah" with numerous complete failure picks. We aren't the only one not nailing all of our draft picks.

I agree ... and if you go to the *'s board you will find many of them aren't sold on Mayo. He evidently makes a lot of mistakes and is injury prone. Of course he might just be their version of Timmons :stirpot :lol:

Mister Pittsburgh
01-27-2010, 01:57 PM
Every team has numerous failure picks every year. Look at New England (widely considered to be a good drafting team) over the past few seasons (too early to evaluate the most recent draft definitively):

2008 - New England Patriots
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 10 Jerod Mayo ILB Tennessee
2 62 Terrence Wheatley CB Colorado
3 78 Shawn Crable OLB Michigan
3 94 Kevin O'Connell QB San Diego State
4 129 Jonathan Wilhite CB Auburn
5 153 Matt Slater WR UCLA
6 197 Bo Ruud LB Nebraska

2007 - New England Patriots
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 24 Brandon Meriweather DB Miami (Fla.)
4 127 Kareem Brown DT Miami (Fla.)
5 171 Clint Oldenburg T Colorado State
6 180 Justin Rogers LB Southern Methodist
6 202 Mike Richardson DB Notre Dame
6 208 Justise Hairston RB Central Connecticut State
6 209 Corey Hilliard OT Oklahoma State
7 211 Oscar Lua LB USC
7 247 Mike Elgin G Iowa

2006 - New England Patriots
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 21 Laurence Maroney RB Minnesota
2 36 Chad Jackson WR Florida
3 86 David Thomas TE Texas
4 106 Garrett Mills RB Tulsa
4 118 Stephen Gostkowski K Memphis
5 136 Ryan O'Callaghan T California
6 191 Jeremy Mincey LB Florida
6 205 Dan Stevenson G Notre Dame
6 206 Le Kevin Smith DT Nebraska
7 229 Willie Andrews CB Baylor

Other than Mayo and the kicker Gostkowski, who has really lived up to their billing in those 3 drafts? Maroney is disappointing for a first rounder. Meriweather is okay. It's just a whole lot of "blah" with numerous complete failure picks. We aren't the only one not nailing all of our draft picks.

The Patriots are yearly players in the free agent market. The Steelers on the other hand, are not. Half the Patriots team were acquired via free agency. So if the Steelers want to continue to not ad via free agency (other than your token 1 player an offseason) then they better draft better.

RuthlessBurgher
01-27-2010, 02:09 PM
We've drafted well enough to win 2 Super Bowls this past decade without being big-time players in free agency. The way some people describe our front office (I recall hearing the "Brain Fart Trust" nickname being bandied about on numerous occassion), you'd think that we were fans of the Rams, Lions, Browns, Raiders, etc.

Oviedo
01-27-2010, 02:31 PM
Every team has numerous failure picks every year. Look at New England (widely considered to be a good drafting team) over the past few seasons (too early to evaluate the most recent draft definitively):

2008 - New England Patriots
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 10 Jerod Mayo ILB Tennessee
2 62 Terrence Wheatley CB Colorado
3 78 Shawn Crable OLB Michigan
3 94 Kevin O'Connell QB San Diego State
4 129 Jonathan Wilhite CB Auburn
5 153 Matt Slater WR UCLA
6 197 Bo Ruud LB Nebraska

2007 - New England Patriots
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 24 Brandon Meriweather DB Miami (Fla.)
4 127 Kareem Brown DT Miami (Fla.)
5 171 Clint Oldenburg T Colorado State
6 180 Justin Rogers LB Southern Methodist
6 202 Mike Richardson DB Notre Dame
6 208 Justise Hairston RB Central Connecticut State
6 209 Corey Hilliard OT Oklahoma State
7 211 Oscar Lua LB USC
7 247 Mike Elgin G Iowa

2006 - New England Patriots
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 21 Laurence Maroney RB Minnesota
2 36 Chad Jackson WR Florida
3 86 David Thomas TE Texas
4 106 Garrett Mills RB Tulsa
4 118 Stephen Gostkowski K Memphis
5 136 Ryan O'Callaghan T California
6 191 Jeremy Mincey LB Florida
6 205 Dan Stevenson G Notre Dame
6 206 Le Kevin Smith DT Nebraska
7 229 Willie Andrews CB Baylor

Other than Mayo and the kicker Gostkowski, who has really lived up to their billing in those 3 drafts? Maroney is disappointing for a first rounder. Meriweather is okay. It's just a whole lot of "blah" with numerous complete failure picks. We aren't the only one not nailing all of our draft picks.

I agree ... and if you go to the *'s board you will find many of them aren't sold on Mayo. He evidently makes a lot of mistakes and is injury prone. Of course he might just be their version of Timmons :stirpot :lol:

But they weren't drafted by Colbert and Tomlin therefore every other teams drafts are loaded with stars and we just can't seem to get it right. At least that is the view of "experts" who routinely criticize both because we don't bring in two future All pros every year.

cruzer8
01-27-2010, 02:56 PM
I guess I'd have to give props to Cowher on this issue. He understood the philosophy that the Rooneys work under. He developed his young players and had them waiting in the wings when the stars moved on for their big payday. He only occasionally made a splash in the free agent market, but when he did, he made it count...i.e. Bettis and Greene. James Harrison is a great example of developing a player to replace a star. Again, BC did understand the process. Mike's only been around a few seasons so we'll just wait and see if he catches on. I think that this off season will be very telling.

Bettis was a draft day trade.

feltdizz
01-27-2010, 02:57 PM
I want SB's and All Pro drafts picks every year! :stirpot

RuthlessBurgher
01-27-2010, 10:02 PM
I want SB's and All Pro drafts picks every year! :stirpot

Why can't every year be like 1974? Start the year off with a draft featuring multiple Hall of Famers and end it with a Super Bowl victory (plus, it helps that I was conceived right around the start of the 1974 football season). :mrgreen:

stlrz d
01-27-2010, 10:06 PM
I want SB's and All Pro drafts picks every year! :stirpot

Why can't every year be like 1974? Start the year off with a draft featuring multiple Hall of Famers and end it with a Super Bowl victory (plus, it helps that I was conceived right around the start of the 1974 football season). :mrgreen:

Mom & Pops celebrating that 30-0 drubbing of the Baltimore Colts? :D

feltdizz
01-27-2010, 10:44 PM
I want SB's and All Pro drafts picks every year! :stirpot

Why can't every year be like 1974? Start the year off with a draft featuring multiple Hall of Famers and end it with a Super Bowl victory (plus, it helps that I was conceived right around the start of the 1974 football season). :mrgreen:

January of 73