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View Full Version : Grading out Ziggy....



SMASHMOUTHFOOTBALL
01-18-2010, 03:35 PM
I'm glad we drafted a DL this year but like most of you I don't yet have a feel how Ziggy will fare in the NFL. Have you all seen anything in the guy. I know its early but he was a 1st rounder. Seems to be we drafted a servicable starter, maybe an above avg guy who does his job but not a lot of splash plays and never makes the pro-bowl.
Can this guy be a pro-bowler?

flippy
01-18-2010, 03:46 PM
My biggest beef with Dick Lebeau's defense is that rookies don't come in and contribute because it's too complex. Let's simplify this thing for the young guys and get them on the field and producing quicker.

Ziggy's gonna be alright, but it's tough to judge at this point. I expect he'll eventually start playing faster and that's when we'll know what we've got.

Shoe
01-18-2010, 03:53 PM
I think you hit the mark on the guy. I think he'll "just" end up being a solid team guy...
I don't see a lot to get EXCITED(!) about, but I don't dislke the pick, nor the player, nor his season really (didn't expect much from him this year).

To compare him... maybe like a Keith Willis... or Gerald Williams... or a poorman's Aaron Smith.

AkronSteel
01-18-2010, 04:08 PM
I would take another Keith Willis if that's what Ziggy ends up becoming!!! I would take that in a second. Willis was good when he was on the field!!! Gerald Williams wasn't too shabby in his day either!!! I think Ziggy started to make some splash plays at the end of the year. He had a sack and forced fumble against the Ratbirds and then a fumble recovery against the Dolphins to end the game. I think as the season wore on he started to get a better feel for the defense and things started to slow down for him. I do know one thing, the guy can get after the QB. I like the pick and will expect a big step forward for him this upcoming year to the point where he may actually take Brett Keisel's job.

Just my :2c

Shoe
01-18-2010, 04:15 PM
I would take another Keith Willis if that's what Ziggy ends up becoming!!! I would take that in a second. Willis was good when he was on the field!!! Gerald Williams wasn't too shabby in his day either!!! I think Ziggy started to make some splash plays at the end of the year. He had a sack and forced fumble against the Ratbirds and then a fumble recovery against the Dolphins to end the game. I think as the season wore on he started to get a better feel for the defense and things started to slow down for him. I do know one thing, the guy can get after the QB. I like the pick and will expect a big step forward for him this upcoming year to the point where he may actually take Brett Keisel's job.

Just my :2c

I would too. Both of those guys were solid veteran types. Keisel is another one. I think Ziggy will be in line with those guys. None of those guys made the Pro Bowl so far as I can recall... but all are/were nice complementary figures on the team. Nothing wrong with that at all.

SteelHead
01-18-2010, 04:31 PM
I have a feeling Ziggy will sneak up on us with a really good year next season.

For the guy's size he moves remarkably well. Take a look at the combine numbers , nobody with his size was putting up his type of numbers.

From what I read his responsibilities in college were limited to a 1 gap penetrator so in turn his learning curve in Lebeaus defense was steep. That being said as he learns more his athletic ability and fantastic motor will be able to show through on game days.

I have faith in the kid purely because of his attitude , work ethic and backround.

He's gonna be a big contributor for us for years , not get much press or hype but will do his job and do it very well. This pick reminds me of Heath in 2005.

Shawn
01-18-2010, 04:47 PM
I think it's unfair to evaluate him at this point. I was however encouraged by his play late in the season. Probowler? That's anyone's guess but I don't believe he will be a bust.

NJ-STEELER
01-18-2010, 05:36 PM
i would guess most teams picking at 32 dont see much of any contributions from their 1st rders

Sugar
01-18-2010, 05:40 PM
i would guess most teams picking at 32 dont see much of any contributions from their 1st rders

:Agree

Especially 1st rounders who weren't even picked to start. Remember, at the beginning of the season we were only replacing two starters from one of the most dominant D's in recent memory and neither of them were on the line.

Iron Shiek
01-18-2010, 06:00 PM
2008 - P Merling, MIA
2007 - Anthony Gonzalez, IND
2006 - Kiwanuka, NYG
2005 - L. Mankins, NE
2004 - Ben Watson, NE
2003 - T Brayton, OAK (Nnamdi picked 31st by OAK as well...)
2002 - Patrick Ramsey Wash (OUCH!)
2001 - Drew Brees, SD (nice)
2000 - Trung Candidate, STL (haha)


Looking at the last decade, most guys drafted in spot 32 weren't really huge contributors right away. Some did end up being solid (Kiwanuka/Mankins). Only Brees was the truly great find in that spot.

papillon
01-18-2010, 07:55 PM
I'm glad we drafted a DL this year but like most of you I don't yet have a feel how Ziggy will fare in the NFL. Have you all seen anything in the guy. I know its early but he was a 1st rounder. Seems to be we drafted a serviceable starter, maybe an above avg guy who does his job but not a lot of splash plays and never makes the pro-bowl.
Can this guy be a pro-bowler?

Aaron Smith has made one pro bowl in his career. Is he valuable to the Steelers? The Steelers need Ziggy to be Aaron Smith if they stay in the 3-4. No one except other teams offensive coordinators and Steeler fans will know how good Smith has been; I hope for Ziggy to be the same.

Pappy

papillon
01-18-2010, 07:58 PM
I think you hit the mark on the guy. I think he'll "just" end up being a solid team guy...
I don't see a lot to get EXCITED(!) about, but I don't dislke the pick, nor the player, nor his season really (didn't expect much from him this year).

To compare him... maybe like a Keith Willis... or Gerald Williams... or a poorman's Aaron Smith.

Does Aaron Smith excite you with his play? If yes, you realize that he's been to exactly one pro-bowl. Defensive ends in the 3-4 are the most under appreciated players on the field, except by their defensive coordinators.

Pappy

Oviedo
01-18-2010, 08:06 PM
My biggest beef with bad word Lebeau's defense is that rookies don't come in and contribute because it's too complex. Let's simplify this thing for the young guys and get them on the field and producing quicker.

Ziggy's gonna be alright, but it's tough to judge at this point. I expect he'll eventually start playing faster and that's when we'll know what we've got.

Don't question a genius. St LeBeau will have this all fixed next year.

There is no need to expect rookies to actually play in our defense. They might make a mistake and give up 4th Qtr leads. :?

Chadman
01-18-2010, 08:09 PM
I think you hit the mark on the guy. I think he'll "just" end up being a solid team guy...
I don't see a lot to get EXCITED(!) about, but I don't dislke the pick, nor the player, nor his season really (didn't expect much from him this year).

To compare him... maybe like a Keith Willis... or Gerald Williams... or a poorman's Aaron Smith.

Does Aaron Smith excite you with his play? If yes, you realize that he's been to exactly one pro-bowl. Defensive ends in the 3-4 are the most under appreciated players on the field, except by their defensive coordinators.

Pappy

No Pap, the NT is the most under appreciated 3-4 defender..

papillon
01-18-2010, 08:12 PM
I think you hit the mark on the guy. I think he'll "just" end up being a solid team guy...
I don't see a lot to get EXCITED(!) about, but I don't dislke the pick, nor the player, nor his season really (didn't expect much from him this year).

To compare him... maybe like a Keith Willis... or Gerald Williams... or a poorman's Aaron Smith.

Does Aaron Smith excite you with his play? If yes, you realize that he's been to exactly one pro-bowl. Defensive ends in the 3-4 are the most under appreciated players on the field, except by their defensive coordinators.

Pappy

No Pap, the NT is the most under appreciated 3-4 defender..

I don't think so, because, NTs actually make the pro bowl. Richard Seymour is the 3-4 DE that I can think of right off hand that has been to a pro bowl. I'm sure there are more, but I'm not smart enough nor enterprising enough to go and see how many 3-4 DEs make the pro bowl. The fact that Aaron Smith has only been to one tells me that not many make it, otherwise he would have multiple pro bowls on his resume.

Pappy

Chadman
01-18-2010, 08:14 PM
I think you hit the mark on the guy. I think he'll "just" end up being a solid team guy...
I don't see a lot to get EXCITED(!) about, but I don't dislke the pick, nor the player, nor his season really (didn't expect much from him this year).

To compare him... maybe like a Keith Willis... or Gerald Williams... or a poorman's Aaron Smith.

Does Aaron Smith excite you with his play? If yes, you realize that he's been to exactly one pro-bowl. Defensive ends in the 3-4 are the most under appreciated players on the field, except by their defensive coordinators.

Pappy

No Pap, the NT is the most under appreciated 3-4 defender..

I don't think so, because, NTs actually make the pro bowl. Richard Seymour is the 3-4 DE that I can think of right off hand that has been to a pro bowl. I'm sure there are more, but I'm not smart enough nor enterprising enough to go and see how many 3-4 DEs make the pro bowl. The fact that Aaron Smith has only been to one tells me that not many make it, otherwise he would have multiple pro bowls on his resume.

Pappy

Could be wrong Pap, but the Pro Bowl is a popularity event full of guys that make 'splash plays'. That's probably why 4-3 DE's get in ahead of 3-4 DE's.

But in Chadman's opinion, teams that switch to a 3-4 nearly ALWAYS make the mistake of not adding a dominant NT. They may get more official publicity, but they are still way too undervalued.

papillon
01-18-2010, 08:20 PM
I think you hit the mark on the guy. I think he'll "just" end up being a solid team guy...
I don't see a lot to get EXCITED(!) about, but I don't dislke the pick, nor the player, nor his season really (didn't expect much from him this year).

To compare him... maybe like a Keith Willis... or Gerald Williams... or a poorman's Aaron Smith.

Does Aaron Smith excite you with his play? If yes, you realize that he's been to exactly one pro-bowl. Defensive ends in the 3-4 are the most under appreciated players on the field, except by their defensive coordinators.

Pappy

No Pap, the NT is the most under appreciated 3-4 defender..

I don't think so, because, NTs actually make the pro bowl. Richard Seymour is the 3-4 DE that I can think of right off hand that has been to a pro bowl. I'm sure there are more, but I'm not smart enough nor enterprising enough to go and see how many 3-4 DEs make the pro bowl. The fact that Aaron Smith has only been to one tells me that not many make it, otherwise he would have multiple pro bowls on his resume.

Pappy

Could be wrong Pap, but the Pro Bowl is a popularity event full of guys that make 'splash plays'. That's probably why 4-3 DE's get in ahead of 3-4 DE's.

But in Chadman's opinion, teams that switch to a 3-4 nearly ALWAYS make the mistake of not adding a dominant NT. They may get more official publicity, but they are still way too undervalued.

I'm not astute enough when it comes to football Xs and Os to make that determination. But, it seems the Steelers rushing defense has survived without Casey in the lineup and using a career backup (Hoke) at the position. Then Smith went down late a couple years ago and the Steelers began giving away rushing yards like they were penny candy and then were one and done in the playoffs.

It could be a coincidence and other factors play into these things, but, it was rather eye opening in 2007. Even this year, without Smith the Steelers did well against the run, but no team actually abandoned the run because it was futile. Maybe, it was Smith or maybe it was missing bith Troy and Smith, but teams still certainly tried to run the ball on the Steelers this year and had some success, regardless of what the stats say about their rank in rushing defense.

Pappy

jj28west
01-18-2010, 09:18 PM
I would love to see him on the goal line as a lead blocker or extra tight end. Who knows, there was a nicely executed RB screen sighting on the last game of the season and a play
that tried to get Logan in space towards the end of the year.

Ziggy seems to have that quick powerful burst thats not common for a guy his size.

Steel Life
01-18-2010, 10:16 PM
I think Ziggy would be more of a factor if we played the 3-4 as more of a penetrating style. After all if Jay Ratliff can make it to the Pro=Bowl as a NT why couldn't Ziggy...or Sonny?

NorthCoast
01-18-2010, 11:07 PM
I think you hit the mark on the guy. I think he'll "just" end up being a solid team guy...
I don't see a lot to get EXCITED(!) about, but I don't dislke the pick, nor the player, nor his season really (didn't expect much from him this year).

To compare him... maybe like a Keith Willis... or Gerald Williams... or a poorman's Aaron Smith.

Does Aaron Smith excite you with his play? If yes, you realize that he's been to exactly one pro-bowl. Defensive ends in the 3-4 are the most under appreciated players on the field, except by their defensive coordinators.

Pappy

I agree Pap. Who was it that said 'Aaron Smith gets blocked maybe 5 times in a season.'? In our scheme, that is the highest praise you can get.

Ziggy did enough with his chances that we should see him much more next year. He stills needs work in the run defense and seemed to get pushed around a little. But with more experience I think he will be fine.

birtikidis
01-18-2010, 11:23 PM
NT is probably the most important part of a 3-4 but not hte most underappreciated. Casey has made a few pro bowls same with Seymour. DE is probably as important as NT though. You HAVE to have at least 2 guys on the DL that can demand double teams so that the lb'ers can make plays.
and they guy that I think ziggy will become is Ray Seals. unless we don't end up with a good nose tackle to replace Casey.

steelblood
01-19-2010, 08:53 AM
My biggest beef with bad word Lebeau's defense is that rookies don't come in and contribute because it's too complex. Let's simplify this thing for the young guys and get them on the field and producing quicker.

Ziggy's gonna be alright, but it's tough to judge at this point. I expect he'll eventually start playing faster and that's when we'll know what we've got.

Don't question a genius. St LeBeau will have this all fixed next year.

There is no need to expect rookies to actually play in our defense. They might make a mistake and give up 4th Qtr leads. :?

The Dead Horse's family is crying for mercy.

Oviedo
01-19-2010, 09:37 AM
My biggest beef with bad word Lebeau's defense is that rookies don't come in and contribute because it's too complex. Let's simplify this thing for the young guys and get them on the field and producing quicker.

Ziggy's gonna be alright, but it's tough to judge at this point. I expect he'll eventually start playing faster and that's when we'll know what we've got.

Don't question a genius. St LeBeau will have this all fixed next year.

There is no need to expect rookies to actually play in our defense. They might make a mistake and give up 4th Qtr leads. :?

The Dead Horse's family is crying for mercy.

It takes a lot of work to turn a raw animal skin into fine leather :D

phillyesq
01-19-2010, 11:23 AM
Ziggy grades out as incomplete at this point, but I liked what I saw from him this year. He seems to have pretty good athleticism and he seemed to get better as the year went on.

Next year, I'd like to see him given more opportunities to contribute on third down. The Steelers pass rush has always been built around the edge rushers. If he can generate pressure up the middle, the edge rushers could be a lot more dangerous. I look forward to him continuing to grow and becoming a bigger part of the D.

NW Steeler
01-19-2010, 12:12 PM
The very fact that he contributed ANYTHING as a rookie in LeBeau's scheme is very promising. I think that he is going to be a player.

Slapstick
01-19-2010, 01:56 PM
There are three "must have" positions in a 3-4 D...

NT
OLB (Pass Rusher)
CB (Good Cover Corner)

That's just to compete...

If you have an elite DE and the best strong safety in the history of the game, you can be much better than competitive...

ikestops85
01-19-2010, 04:57 PM
I think it's funny that people actually believe that the reason rookies don't play on our defense is because it's too complicated for them. We have had rookies play and play well for our defense. Kendrel Bell sound familiar?

The reason it doesn't happen often is we generally don't have a glaring weakness in our defense where a rookie is going to come in and outplay the vet for a starting position.

That goes for all teams that are strong on a particular side of the ball. How many rookies have come out of training camp and started on the Colts offense? I'll bet you can't name too many that didn't have to do with injuries to the starter.

I'm sure if we draft a corner who shows he can blanket our receivers in camp and the other teams receivers in pre-season he will get a chance to start no matter how complicated our defense supposedly is.

cruzer8
01-19-2010, 06:16 PM
I think it's funny that people actually believe that the reason rookies don't play on our defense is because it's too complicated for them. We have had rookies play and play well for our defense. Kendrel Bell sound familiar?

The reason it doesn't happen often is we generally don't have a glaring weakness in our defense where a rookie is going to come in and outplay the vet for a starting position.

That goes for all teams that are strong on a particular side of the ball. How many rookies have come out of training camp and started on the Colts offense? I'll bet you can't name too many that didn't have to do with injuries to the starter.

I'm sure if we draft a corner who shows he can blanket our receivers in camp and the other teams receivers in pre-season he will get a chance to start no matter how complicated our defense supposedly is.

:Clap

Shawn
01-19-2010, 06:32 PM
I think it's funny that people actually believe that the reason rookies don't play on our defense is because it's too complicated for them. We have had rookies play and play well for our defense. Kendrel Bell sound familiar?

The reason it doesn't happen often is we generally don't have a glaring weakness in our defense where a rookie is going to come in and outplay the vet for a starting position.

That goes for all teams that are strong on a particular side of the ball. How many rookies have come out of training camp and started on the Colts offense? I'll bet you can't name too many that didn't have to do with injuries to the starter.

I'm sure if we draft a corner who shows he can blanket our receivers in camp and the other teams receivers in pre-season he will get a chance to start no matter how complicated our defense supposedly is.

I don't know if you recall but Bell had significantly dumbed down assignments. I remember and article saying that he was responsible to stop the run or rush the passer. Bell was also a freak...what a waste of unreal talent. I can't think of another rookie who was significant playing time. It's certainly not common.

feltdizz
01-19-2010, 06:41 PM
I think it's funny that people actually believe that the reason rookies don't play on our defense is because it's too complicated for them. We have had rookies play and play well for our defense. Kendrel Bell sound familiar?

The reason it doesn't happen often is we generally don't have a glaring weakness in our defense where a rookie is going to come in and outplay the vet for a starting position.

That goes for all teams that are strong on a particular side of the ball. How many rookies have come out of training camp and started on the Colts offense? I'll bet you can't name too many that didn't have to do with injuries to the starter.

I'm sure if we draft a corner who shows he can blanket our receivers in camp and the other teams receivers in pre-season he will get a chance to start no matter how complicated our defense supposedly is.

:Clap

Kendrall Bell had one assignment.. BLITZ... he never learned the defense and this is why he was traded. James Harrison could've had the same assignment and played on day one. We paid the price for rushing Bell..

He was trash in KC too... pure trash. Sorry Bell, but I watched Tiki run right by you on a highlight breaking 7 tackles and you never touched him...and you were right next to him!

Let me add... using Kendrall Bell as proof is not good at all. All these years and he is the best we can come up with?

feltdizz
01-19-2010, 06:51 PM
I'm not astute enough when it comes to football Xs and Os to make that determination. But, it seems the Steelers rushing defense has survived without Casey in the lineup and using a career backup (Hoke) at the position. Then Smith went down late a couple years ago and the Steelers began giving away rushing yards like they were penny candy and then were one and done in the playoffs.

It could be a coincidence and other factors play into these things, but, it was rather eye opening in 2007. Even this year, without Smith the Steelers did well against the run, but no team actually abandoned the run because it was futile. Maybe, it was Smith or maybe it was missing bith Troy and Smith, but teams still certainly tried to run the ball on the Steelers this year and had some success, regardless of what the stats say about their rank in rushing defense.

Pappy


It's easier pulling a guard to a weak side to expose a missing DE???

NJ-STEELER
01-19-2010, 07:17 PM
didn't hampton start right away?

RuthlessBurgher
01-19-2010, 07:52 PM
didn't hampton start right away?

Kimo started the first 5 games of the '01 season on the nose, then he moved over to DE and they inserted Casey as the stater at NT for the final 11 games of his rookie season.

AkronSteel
01-19-2010, 10:54 PM
didn't hampton start right away?

Kimo started the first 5 games of the '01 season on the nose, then he moved over to DE and they inserted Casey as the stater at NT for the final 11 games of his rookie season.

I believe Kendric Clancy started those early games at the nose but Casey was playing just as much as him!!! i will have to look at the tapes but I think it was Clancy!!!

RuthlessBurgher
01-20-2010, 03:18 PM
didn't hampton start right away?

Kimo started the first 5 games of the '01 season on the nose, then he moved over to DE and they inserted Casey as the stater at NT for the final 11 games of his rookie season.

I believe Kendric Clancy started those early games at the nose but Casey was playing just as much as him!!! i will have to look at the tapes but I think it was Clancy!!!

Could be...I just remember bringing Kimo in from Cincy and he was an underwhelming NT, then we drafted Casey and Kimo was a much better 3-4 DE for us. Perhaps it was the year before Casey was drafted that Kimo was our NT and not the first 5 games that season.

ikestops85
01-20-2010, 06:55 PM
I think it's funny that people actually believe that the reason rookies don't play on our defense is because it's too complicated for them. We have had rookies play and play well for our defense. Kendrel Bell sound familiar?

The reason it doesn't happen often is we generally don't have a glaring weakness in our defense where a rookie is going to come in and outplay the vet for a starting position.

That goes for all teams that are strong on a particular side of the ball. How many rookies have come out of training camp and started on the Colts offense? I'll bet you can't name too many that didn't have to do with injuries to the starter.

I'm sure if we draft a corner who shows he can blanket our receivers in camp and the other teams receivers in pre-season he will get a chance to start no matter how complicated our defense supposedly is.

:Clap

Kendrall Bell had one assignment.. BLITZ... he never learned the defense and this is why he was traded. James Harrison could've had the same assignment and played on day one. We paid the price for rushing Bell..

He was trash in KC too... pure trash. Sorry Bell, but I watched Tiki run right by you on a highlight breaking 7 tackles and you never touched him...and you were right next to him!

Let me add... using Kendrall Bell as proof is not good at all. All these years and he is the best we can come up with?

I don't think you are getting the point. Bell was better than any other player we could put on the field in that position so he started so why isn't he a good example. Let's flip this around. How about you name me a team that has an excellent defense and drafts a player who immediately starts? That list isn't going to be very long.

What steeler rookies have we had that you think would have started if our defense was "dumbed down"?