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AkronSteel
01-17-2010, 12:56 PM
Bears DE Adams dies at age 26
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ESPN.com news services

Chicago Bears defensive end Gaines Adams died Sunday morning after he was taken to a Greenwood, S.C., emergency room, the county coroner said.

Greenwood County Coroner James T. Coursey said Adams was taken to the emergency room at Self Regional Hospital, where he was pronounced dead at 9 a.m. ET Sunday morning.

An autopsy will be performed Sunday by the Anderson County forensic pathologist, Coursey said.

Adams, 26, listed at 6-foot-5 and 256 pounds, played in college at Clemson and was drafted by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers with the No. 4 overall pick in the 2007 NFL draft. He was traded to the Bears in October.

In 47 games over four seasons with the Bucs and Bears, Adams had 67 tackles, including 13.5 sacks.

Very Very Sad!!! :(

grotonsteel
01-17-2010, 01:24 PM
Whaaatttttttt.....this is just a sad news.... :(

RIP...Gaines.......

RuthlessBurgher
01-17-2010, 02:18 PM
Preliminary autopsy indicates that he died of cardiac arrest caused by an enlarged heart.

Awful news...

buckeyehoppy
01-17-2010, 02:43 PM
Wow! This sucks! RIP, for sure. Way too young to die.

costanza2k1
01-17-2010, 04:25 PM
Preliminary autopsy indicates that he died of cardiac arrest caused by an enlarged heart.

Awful news...


Very sad news...can't believe it. The only thing that puzzles me is with all of the checkups and physicals these guys go through how did they miss that??? He just signed with the Bears so how was this missed. I'm really not educated in these physicals but it bothers me.

feltdizz
01-17-2010, 04:37 PM
Preliminary autopsy indicates that he died of cardiac arrest caused by an enlarged heart.

Awful news...


Very sad news...can't believe it. The only thing that puzzles me is with all of the checkups and physicals these guys go through how did they miss that??? He just signed with the Bears so how was this missed. I'm really not educated in these physicals but it bothers me.

Do most athletes have enlarged hearts do to all the exercise?

MicroBioSteel
01-17-2010, 06:13 PM
Preliminary autopsy indicates that he died of cardiac arrest caused by an enlarged heart.

Awful news...


Very sad news...can't believe it. The only thing that puzzles me is with all of the checkups and physicals these guys go through how did they miss that??? He just signed with the Bears so how was this missed. I'm really not educated in these physicals but it bothers me.


You would be surprised how ancient "modern medicine" really is. The term modern medicine is just a marketing tool so that you and your insurance company feel that you got value for all that $$$. It really is a sham and a shame about Gaines. 26 was the best year of my life and for him it was his last. Very Very sad. RIP

Chadman
01-17-2010, 06:24 PM
Bloody Hell.

Too young by far.

ramblinjim
01-17-2010, 06:56 PM
Sad to see a young man pass away like that. I too wonder how you miss an enlarged heart?

Shawn
01-17-2010, 07:32 PM
Preliminary autopsy indicates that he died of cardiac arrest caused by an enlarged heart.

Awful news...


Very sad news...can't believe it. The only thing that puzzles me is with all of the checkups and physicals these guys go through how did they miss that??? He just signed with the Bears so how was this missed. I'm really not educated in these physicals but it bothers me.


You would be surprised how ancient "modern medicine" really is. The term modern medicine is just a marketing tool so that you and your insurance company feel that you got value for all that $$$. It really is a sham and a shame about Gaines. 26 was the best year of my life and for him it was his last. Very Very sad. RIP

I certainly wouldn't go that far. It's a shame to know people feel that way. With that said, I have to agree about the dismay people feel towards this tragedy. Unfortunately, they call hypertrophic cardiomyopathy the silent killer with good reason. Many people have no symptoms prior to collapse and death. The only way to find out if someone has this condition is to do a thorough cardiac work up. Unfortunately, these types of tests are pricey. And while some would like to blame the docs or the insurance companies this falls onto the NCAA and NFL shoulders. They choose not to do these tests on every athlete because they are not "cost effective".

I really feel for the family...may Gaines rest in peace.

Shawn
01-17-2010, 07:35 PM
Preliminary autopsy indicates that he died of cardiac arrest caused by an enlarged heart.

Awful news...


Very sad news...can't believe it. The only thing that puzzles me is with all of the checkups and physicals these guys go through how did they miss that??? He just signed with the Bears so how was this missed. I'm really not educated in these physicals but it bothers me.

Do most athletes have enlarged hearts do to all the exercise?

Yes, most have larger hearts due to exercise. But, few have hypertrophic cardiomyopathy which is congenital.

MicroBioSteel
01-17-2010, 08:29 PM
Preliminary autopsy indicates that he died of cardiac arrest caused by an enlarged heart.

Awful news...


Very sad news...can't believe it. The only thing that puzzles me is with all of the checkups and physicals these guys go through how did they miss that??? He just signed with the Bears so how was this missed. I'm really not educated in these physicals but it bothers me.


You would be surprised how ancient "modern medicine" really is. The term modern medicine is just a marketing tool so that you and your insurance company feel that you got value for all that $$$. It really is a sham and a shame about Gaines. 26 was the best year of my life and for him it was his last. Very Very sad. RIP

I certainly wouldn't go that far. It's a shame to know people feel that way. With that said, I have to agree about the dismay people feel towards this tragedy. Unfortunately, they call hypertrophic cardiomyopathy the silent killer with good reason. Many people have no symptoms prior to collapse and death. The only way to find out if someone has this condition is to do a thorough cardiac work up. Unfortunately, these types of tests are pricey. And while some would like to blame the docs or the insurance companies this falls onto the NCAA and NFL shoulders. They choose not to do these tests on every athlete because they are not "cost effective".

I really feel for the family...may Gaines rest in peace.


I agree Shawn. This falls on then NFL. As for the modern medicine statement... I have a bias because I'm am a translational immunologist. I'm a proponent of 4P medicine, and while medicine is cutting edge in the fields of imaging we are woefully behind were we could be in terms of early diagnostics. We will get there though. We just need the key players to buy in.

Shawn
01-17-2010, 10:00 PM
Preliminary autopsy indicates that he died of cardiac arrest caused by an enlarged heart.

Awful news...


Very sad news...can't believe it. The only thing that puzzles me is with all of the checkups and physicals these guys go through how did they miss that??? He just signed with the Bears so how was this missed. I'm really not educated in these physicals but it bothers me.


You would be surprised how ancient "modern medicine" really is. The term modern medicine is just a marketing tool so that you and your insurance company feel that you got value for all that $$$. It really is a sham and a shame about Gaines. 26 was the best year of my life and for him it was his last. Very Very sad. RIP

I certainly wouldn't go that far. It's a shame to know people feel that way. With that said, I have to agree about the dismay people feel towards this tragedy. Unfortunately, they call hypertrophic cardiomyopathy the silent killer with good reason. Many people have no symptoms prior to collapse and death. The only way to find out if someone has this condition is to do a thorough cardiac work up. Unfortunately, these types of tests are pricey. And while some would like to blame the docs or the insurance companies this falls onto the NCAA and NFL shoulders. They choose not to do these tests on every athlete because they are not "cost effective".

I really feel for the family...may Gaines rest in peace.


I agree Shawn. This falls on then NFL. As for the modern medicine statement... I have a bias because I'm am a translational immunologist. I'm a proponent of 4P medicine, and while medicine is cutting edge in the fields of imaging we are woefully behind were we could be in terms of early diagnostics. We will get there though. We just need the key players to buy in.

Your field is certainly cutting edge...and where I believe medicine of the future is heading. With that said, I don't think "modern" medicine failed this guy. The lack of desire of the NCAA and the NFL to conduct specific testing is what failed this guy.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
01-17-2010, 10:34 PM
...


Very sad news...can't believe it. The only thing that puzzles me is with all of the checkups and physicals these guys go through how did they miss that??? He just signed with the Bears so how was this missed. I'm really not educated in these physicals but it bothers me.


You would be surprised how ancient "modern medicine" really is. The term modern medicine is just a marketing tool so that you and your insurance company feel that you got value for all that $$$. It really is a sham and a shame about Gaines. 26 was the best year of my life and for him it was his last. Very Very sad. RIP

I certainly wouldn't go that far. It's a shame to know people feel that way. With that said, I have to agree about the dismay people feel towards this tragedy. Unfortunately, they call hypertrophic cardiomyopathy the silent killer with good reason. Many people have no symptoms prior to collapse and death. The only way to find out if someone has this condition is to do a thorough cardiac work up. Unfortunately, these types of tests are pricey. And while some would like to blame the docs or the insurance companies this falls onto the NCAA and NFL shoulders. They choose not to do these tests on every athlete because they are not "cost effective".

I really feel for the family...may Gaines rest in peace.


I agree Shawn. This falls on then NFL. As for the modern medicine statement... I have a bias because I'm am a translational immunologist. I'm a proponent of 4P medicine, and while medicine is cutting edge in the fields of imaging we are woefully behind were we could be in terms of early diagnostics. We will get there though. We just need the key players to buy in.

Your field is certainly cutting edge...and where I believe medicine of the future is heading. With that said, I don't think "modern" medicine failed this guy. The lack of desire of the NCAA and the NFL to conduct specific testing is what failed this guy.

It is often not nearly as easy as you suggest to differentiate between an athlete's heart and a heart with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. Unless you happen to know what specific testing was done (or not done) on this specific player, and the results of those tests - saying the NCAA and NFL are somehow responsible for this player's death is fairly reckless, bordering on demagoguery or worse.

Shawn
01-17-2010, 10:47 PM
You saying that means you didn't read my original post or you just have a hard on for busting my balls. Do you remember the terms silent killer and thorough cardiac exam? There is usually reasonable suspicion through an indepth history, ekg and an echo. It certainly differentiates who needs more invasive or genetic studies. I do know the NFL does not regularly do echos on all it's players. Why don't they...and why do you believe these lives are not worth an echo? The NFL is big money...can't they give back by doing more extensive cardiac work ups on these guys? I would love for you to tell Adams family he wasn't worth an echo.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
01-17-2010, 11:04 PM
You saying that means you didn't read my original post or you just have a hard on for busting my balls. Do you remember the terms silent killer and thorough cardiac exam? There is usually reasonable suspicion through an indepth history, ekg and an echo. It certain differentiates who needs more invasive or genetic studies. I do know the NFL does not regularly do echos on all it's players. Why don't they...and why do you believe these lives are not worth an echo? The NFL is big money...can't they give back by doing more extensive cardiac work ups on these guys? I would love for you to tell Adams family he wasn't worth an echo.

Hey, brain surgeon, read my post. I said: 1) it's often not easy to tell an athlete's heart from a hypertrophic cardiomyopathy heart, and 2) your blaming the NCAA and NFL (did I leave anyone out?) without knowing what testing this guy had, or the results of any of those tests, is reckless and reeks of demagoguery.

Do you know if this athlete got an echo?
Do you know what the echo showed?

If the answer to either question is no, how in the world do you justify blaming the NCAA/NFL for his death?

Finally - who said this guy, or anyone else, isn't worth an echo? You accuse me of saying that, when I didn't. That's not just wrong, but it's also unsurprising, considering this post of yours where you blame the NCAA/NFL for this guys death without a shred of evidence (maybe he had an echo, and it was negative, uhhh, right? ... but you know for sure they were responsible for his death :Bow ), and of course your typical posting history.

You really have a great responsibility to speak responsibly on medical matters, some people on this forum know you are a physician, they tend to trust what you write just because of your profession.

Hope that helps! :lol:

Shawn
01-17-2010, 11:20 PM
You saying that means you didn't read my original post or you just have a hard on for busting my balls. Do you remember the terms silent killer and thorough cardiac exam? There is usually reasonable suspicion through an indepth history, ekg and an echo. It certain differentiates who needs more invasive or genetic studies. I do know the NFL does not regularly do echos on all it's players. Why don't they...and why do you believe these lives are not worth an echo? The NFL is big money...can't they give back by doing more extensive cardiac work ups on these guys? I would love for you to tell Adams family he wasn't worth an echo.

Hey, brain surgeon, read my post. I said: 1) it's often not easy to tell an athlete's heart from a hypertrophic cardiomyopathy heart, and 2) your blaming the NCAA and NFL (did I leave anyone out?) without knowing what testing this guy had, or the results of any of those tests, is reckless and reeks of demagoguery.

Do you know if this athlete got an echo?
Do you know what the echo showed?

If the answer to either question is no, how in the world do you justify blaming the NCAA/NFL for his death?

Finally - who said this guy, or anyone else, isn't worth an echo? You accuse me of saying that, when I didn't. That's not just wrong, but it's also unsurprising, considering this post of yours where you blame the NCAA/NFL for this guys death without a shred of evidence (maybe he had an echo, and it was negative, uhhh, right? ... but you know for sure they were responsible for his death :Bow ), and of course your typical posting history.

You really have a great responsibility to speak responsibly on medical matters, some people on this forum know you are a physician, they tend to trust what you write just because of your profession.

Hope that helps! :lol:


No, need to name call young man. Just settle down...you get a bit hyper when it comes to me. So, you are guessing about things you know nothing about? Just a question...why should we accept your medical expertise? What medical training do you have?

Next...I am saying I KNOW the NFL does not do ECHOs on their players unless they have been pre-screened to need one. Unless, he was pre-screened to need one...he didn't get one. If he had gotten one...he wouldn't have been playing in the NFL...that simple. That's how I know. I also KNOW from experience...and working in the field...of um medicine that doing echos on every player would increase the NFL's ability to find these players.

Here...I found a real simple site for you to bone up on your hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.
http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/tc/h ... SS_BLOGGER (http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/tc/hypertrophic-cardiomyopathy-exams-and-tests?src=RSS_BLOGGER)

As for you not caring about Adams family...well it's either that or you are ignorant. If he had an echo...they would have been suspicious enough to do a more thorough work up. In your medical opinion can he have hypertrophic cardiomyopathy with a normal echo? If so...show me the proof. Can you find a case of a man 20+ years old with a normal echo who had HCM? If not...were you ignorant or insensitive?

a little you should know about echo and HCM
Important echocardiographic features include mitral regurgiation and LVOTO. The ejection fraction (EF) is high to normal, except in late decompensated stage. Small left ventricular (LV) cavity and left atrial enlargement are other features.

Septal thickness is often 4-6 mm more than normal. Asymmetric septal hypertrophy with absolute thickness more than 15 mm, septal / posterior wall (PW) ratio > 1.3 in normotensives and > 1.5 in hypertensives are some of the features. Rarely normal septal thickness can occur in genotype +ve cases, especially in cardiac troponin T mutations. Normal echo earlier in life can occur in cardiac myosin binding protein C mutation, which mandates repeat echo evaluation after five years. Apical hypertrophy can produce an ace of spades configuration of the LV cavity.

While assessing the severity of HCM, maximal wall thickness in multiple segments, length of septal hypertrophy, extension to apical segments and involvement of papillary muscles anterior displacement / direct insertion into mitral valve have all to be looked into.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
01-18-2010, 12:05 AM
You saying that means you didn't read my original post or you just have a hard on for busting my balls. Do you remember the terms silent killer and thorough cardiac exam? There is usually reasonable suspicion through an indepth history, ekg and an echo. It certain differentiates who needs more invasive or genetic studies. I do know the NFL does not regularly do echos on all it's players. Why don't they...and why do you believe these lives are not worth an echo? The NFL is big money...can't they give back by doing more extensive cardiac work ups on these guys? I would love for you to tell Adams family he wasn't worth an echo.

Hey, brain surgeon, read my post. I said: 1) it's often not easy to tell an athlete's heart from a hypertrophic cardiomyopathy heart, and 2) your blaming the NCAA and NFL (did I leave anyone out?) without knowing what testing this guy had, or the results of any of those tests, is reckless and reeks of demagoguery.

Do you know if this athlete got an echo?
Do you know what the echo showed?

If the answer to either question is no, how in the world do you justify blaming the NCAA/NFL for his death?

Finally - who said this guy, or anyone else, isn't worth an echo? You accuse me of saying that, when I didn't. That's not just wrong, but it's also unsurprising, considering this post of yours where you blame the NCAA/NFL for this guys death without a shred of evidence (maybe he had an echo, and it was negative, uhhh, right? ... but you know for sure they were responsible for his death :Bow ), and of course your typical posting history.

You really have a great responsibility to speak responsibly on medical matters, some people on this forum know you are a physician, they tend to trust what you write just because of your profession.

Hope that helps! :lol:


No, need to name call young man. Just settle down...you get a bit hyper when it comes to me. So, you are guessing about things you know nothing about? Just a question... why should we accept your medical expertise? What medical training do you have?

Next...I am saying I KNOW the NFL does not do ECHOs on their players unless they have been pre-screened to need one. Unless, he was pre-screened to need one...he didn't get one. If he had gotten one...he wouldn't have been playing in the NFL...that simple. That's how I know. I also KNOW from experience...and working in the field...of um medicine that doing echos on every player would increase the NFL's ability to find these players.

Here...I found a real simple site for you to bone up on your hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.
http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/tc/h ... SS_BLOGGER (http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/tc/hypertrophic-cardiomyopathy-exams-and-tests?src=RSS_BLOGGER)

As for you not caring about Adams family...well it's either that or you are ignorant. If he had an echo...they would have been suspicious enough to do a more thorough work up. In your medical opinion can he have hypertrophic cardiomyopathy with a normal echo? If so...show me the proof. If not...were you ignorant or insensitive?

a little you should know about echo and HCM
Important echocardiographic features include mitral regurgiation and LVOTO. The ejection fraction (EF) is high to normal, except in late decompensated stage. Small left ventricular (LV) cavity and left atrial enlargement are other features.

Septal thickness is often 4-6 mm more than normal. Asymmetric septal hypertrophy with absolute thickness more than 15 mm, septal / posterior wall (PW) ratio > 1.3 in normotensives and > 1.5 in hypertensives are some of the features. Rarely normal septal thickness can occur in genotype +ve cases, especially in cardiac troponin T mutations. Normal echo earlier in life can occur in cardiac myosin binding protein C mutation, which mandates repeat echo evaluation after five years. Apical hypertrophy can produce an ace of spades configuration of the LV cavity.

While assessing the severity of HCM, maximal wall thickness in multiple segments, length of septal hypertrophy, extension to apical segments and involvement of papillary muscles anterior displacement / direct insertion into mitral valve have all to be looked into.

Nice try setting up straw men to try to pivot away from the issue I'm bringing up. You don't have to have a medical degree or be a rocket scientist to see that for you to blame the NCAA and NFL for his death sounds pretty reckless, since you don't know this patient's medical history. I'm hoping you don't treat your patients that way, jumping to conclusions without knowing the medical history. All your cut and paste of cardiology articles doesn't change the fact that you are blaming the NCAA and NFL for this player's death without knowing a thing about his personal medical history.

Or do you? Being in the medical field, do you have remote access to his medical chart from the ER where he died? Have you seen the chart? So you somehow KNOW that he did not have an echo, and you KNOW it wasn't read as "enlarged, but normal for an athlete's heart, not hypertrophic cardiomyopathy - OK to play sports"? If not, respect for the family would probably include not spreading unsubstantiated rumors about how he died, or that the NCAA and NFL are responsible for his death. Dontcha think?

Edited addendum: Oh, sorry, I forgot to add - it's neither (I'm referring to your first sentence at the top of this post), I just remember you as the guy who abused his moderator position on this board, and deleted my posts, and posts of other people you didn't like, and who was personally responsible for people leaving this board. And then when you had the chance to apologize to the board this week, instead you said something like I should consider myself lucky that you didn't ban me because you didn't like me. :lol: Hope that helps! :lol:

Shawn
01-18-2010, 12:49 AM
You saying that means you didn't read my original post or you just have a hard on for busting my balls. Do you remember the terms silent killer and thorough cardiac exam? There is usually reasonable suspicion through an indepth history, ekg and an echo. It certain differentiates who needs more invasive or genetic studies. I do know the NFL does not regularly do echos on all it's players. Why don't they...and why do you believe these lives are not worth an echo? The NFL is big money...can't they give back by doing more extensive cardiac work ups on these guys? I would love for you to tell Adams family he wasn't worth an echo.

Hey, brain surgeon, read my post. I said: 1) it's often not easy to tell an athlete's heart from a hypertrophic cardiomyopathy heart, and 2) your blaming the NCAA and NFL (did I leave anyone out?) without knowing what testing this guy had, or the results of any of those tests, is reckless and reeks of demagoguery.

Do you know if this athlete got an echo?
Do you know what the echo showed?

If the answer to either question is no, how in the world do you justify blaming the NCAA/NFL for his death?

Finally - who said this guy, or anyone else, isn't worth an echo? You accuse me of saying that, when I didn't. That's not just wrong, but it's also unsurprising, considering this post of yours where you blame the NCAA/NFL for this guys death without a shred of evidence (maybe he had an echo, and it was negative, uhhh, right? ... but you know for sure they were responsible for his death :Bow ), and of course your typical posting history.

You really have a great responsibility to speak responsibly on medical matters, some people on this forum know you are a physician, they tend to trust what you write just because of your profession.

Hope that helps! :lol:


No, need to name call young man. Just settle down...you get a bit hyper when it comes to me. So, you are guessing about things you know nothing about? Just a question... why should we accept your medical expertise? What medical training do you have?

Next...I am saying I KNOW the NFL does not do ECHOs on their players unless they have been pre-screened to need one. Unless, he was pre-screened to need one...he didn't get one. If he had gotten one...he wouldn't have been playing in the NFL...that simple. That's how I know. I also KNOW from experience...and working in the field...of um medicine that doing echos on every player would increase the NFL's ability to find these players.

Here...I found a real simple site for you to bone up on your hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.
http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/tc/h ... SS_BLOGGER (http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/tc/hypertrophic-cardiomyopathy-exams-and-tests?src=RSS_BLOGGER)

As for you not caring about Adams family...well it's either that or you are ignorant. If he had an echo...they would have been suspicious enough to do a more thorough work up. In your medical opinion can he have hypertrophic cardiomyopathy with a normal echo? If so...show me the proof. If not...were you ignorant or insensitive?

a little you should know about echo and HCM
Important echocardiographic features include mitral regurgiation and LVOTO. The ejection fraction (EF) is high to normal, except in late decompensated stage. Small left ventricular (LV) cavity and left atrial enlargement are other features.

Septal thickness is often 4-6 mm more than normal. Asymmetric septal hypertrophy with absolute thickness more than 15 mm, septal / posterior wall (PW) ratio > 1.3 in normotensives and > 1.5 in hypertensives are some of the features. Rarely normal septal thickness can occur in genotype +ve cases, especially in cardiac troponin T mutations. Normal echo earlier in life can occur in cardiac myosin binding protein C mutation, which mandates repeat echo evaluation after five years. Apical hypertrophy can produce an ace of spades configuration of the LV cavity.

While assessing the severity of HCM, maximal wall thickness in multiple segments, length of septal hypertrophy, extension to apical segments and involvement of papillary muscles anterior displacement / direct insertion into mitral valve have all to be looked into.

Nice try setting up straw men to try to pivot away from the issue I'm bringing up. You don't have to have a medical degree or be a rocket scientist to see that for you to blame the NCAA and NFL for his death sounds pretty reckless, without knowing this patient's medical history. I'm hoping you don't treat your patients that way, jumping to conclusions without knowing the medical history. All your cut and paste of cardiology articles doesn't change the fact that you are blaming the NCAA and NFL for this player's death without knowing a thing about his personal medical history.

Or do you? Being in the medical field, do you have remote access to his medical chart from the ER where he died? Have you seen the chart? So you somehow KNOW that he did not have an echo, and you KNOW it wasn't read as "enlarged, but normal for an athlete's heart, not hypertrophic cardiomyopathy - OK to play sports"? If not, respect for the family would probably include not spreading unsubstantiated rumors about how he died, or that the NCAA and NFL are responsible for his death. Dontcha think?

Wow...you are a spin doctor. I don't need to know the guy's medical history to know he died of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. I also know the NFL's policy on screening individuals...and that is what I call reckless.

Lets go over what I know and my logic...for the last time (if you don't get it you just don't)
1) The NFL DOES NOT do echos on every player unless they are deemed "high risk".
2) I know he didn't get an echo because he is dead...clear enough? Yes, the echo will be different in just an enlarged heart and HCM.
3) From preliminary reports it was from hypertrophic cardiomyopathy...dead, hypertrophic cardiomyopathy=didn't get an echo. With a thorough history, physical exam, ekg, and echo in a 20 yo+ there should be a 100% success rate in finding HCM. It will have to be confirmed with more invasive studies...but it won't be missed. If he got these tests he would not be dead. I don't need a chart in front of me to be able to come to correct conclusions by logical deduction and medical expertise.
4) If the NFL had the ability to screen him adequately and chose not to...which obviously they did not (or again he wouldn't be dead) then were they responsible? The NFL didn't create his heart but they certainly didn't use the testing and the evidence to keep him from playing. I will let the court of public opinion decide that. I personally believe the NFL owes it to all players to do extensive cardiac work ups on all players...which includes an echo.

As for a straw man argument...well that would be valid if you hadn't misrepresented yourself as knowing something about the NFL policies and HCM. You said he could have had a negative echo and initial screening right? That's incorrect. So, I think my argument was valid and directed appropriately.

I know you don't like me here. That's ok. But, I would suggest taking a deep breath, counting to 10 and ask yourself...is it worth getting all worked up over a message board?

Come on man.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
01-18-2010, 12:52 AM
You saying that means you didn't read my original post or you just have a hard on for busting my balls. Do you remember the terms silent killer and thorough cardiac exam? There is usually reasonable suspicion through an indepth history, ekg and an echo. It certain differentiates who needs more invasive or genetic studies. I do know the NFL does not regularly do echos on all it's players. Why don't they...and why do you believe these lives are not worth an echo? The NFL is big money...can't they give back by doing more extensive cardiac work ups on these guys? I would love for you to tell Adams family he wasn't worth an echo.

Hey, brain surgeon, read my post. I said: 1) it's often not easy to tell an athlete's heart from a hypertrophic cardiomyopathy heart, and 2) your blaming the NCAA and NFL (did I leave anyone out?) without knowing what testing this guy had, or the results of any of those tests, is reckless and reeks of demagoguery.

Do you know if this athlete got an echo?
Do you know what the echo showed?

If the answer to either question is no, how in the world do you justify blaming the NCAA/NFL for his death?

Finally - who said this guy, or anyone else, isn't worth an echo? You accuse me of saying that, when I didn't. That's not just wrong, but it's also unsurprising, considering this post of yours where you blame the NCAA/NFL for this guys death without a shred of evidence (maybe he had an echo, and it was negative, uhhh, right? ... but you know for sure they were responsible for his death :Bow ), and of course your typical posting history.

You really have a great responsibility to speak responsibly on medical matters, some people on this forum know you are a physician, they tend to trust what you write just because of your profession.

Hope that helps! :lol:


No, need to name call young man. Just settle down...you get a bit hyper when it comes to me. So, you are guessing about things you know nothing about? Just a question... why should we accept your medical expertise? What medical training do you have?

Next...I am saying I KNOW the NFL does not do ECHOs on their players unless they have been pre-screened to need one. Unless, he was pre-screened to need one...he didn't get one. If he had gotten one...he wouldn't have been playing in the NFL...that simple. That's how I know. I also KNOW from experience...and working in the field...of um medicine that doing echos on every player would increase the NFL's ability to find these players.

Here...I found a real simple site for you to bone up on your hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.
http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/tc/h ... SS_BLOGGER (http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/tc/hypertrophic-cardiomyopathy-exams-and-tests?src=RSS_BLOGGER)

As for you not caring about Adams family...well it's either that or you are ignorant. If he had an echo...they would have been suspicious enough to do a more thorough work up. In your medical opinion can he have hypertrophic cardiomyopathy with a normal echo? If so...show me the proof. If not...were you ignorant or insensitive?

a little you should know about echo and HCM
Important echocardiographic features include mitral regurgiation and LVOTO. The ejection fraction (EF) is high to normal, except in late decompensated stage. Small left ventricular (LV) cavity and left atrial enlargement are other features.

Septal thickness is often 4-6 mm more than normal. Asymmetric septal hypertrophy with absolute thickness more than 15 mm, septal / posterior wall (PW) ratio > 1.3 in normotensives and > 1.5 in hypertensives are some of the features. Rarely normal septal thickness can occur in genotype +ve cases, especially in cardiac troponin T mutations. Normal echo earlier in life can occur in cardiac myosin binding protein C mutation, which mandates repeat echo evaluation after five years. Apical hypertrophy can produce an ace of spades configuration of the LV cavity.

While assessing the severity of HCM, maximal wall thickness in multiple segments, length of septal hypertrophy, extension to apical segments and involvement of papillary muscles anterior displacement / direct insertion into mitral valve have all to be looked into.

Nice try setting up straw men to try to pivot away from the issue I'm bringing up. You don't have to have a medical degree or be a rocket scientist to see that for you to blame the NCAA and NFL for his death sounds pretty reckless, without knowing this patient's medical history. I'm hoping you don't treat your patients that way, jumping to conclusions without knowing the medical history. All your cut and paste of cardiology articles doesn't change the fact that you are blaming the NCAA and NFL for this player's death without knowing a thing about his personal medical history.

Or do you? Being in the medical field, do you have remote access to his medical chart from the ER where he died? Have you seen the chart? So you somehow KNOW that he did not have an echo, and you KNOW it wasn't read as "enlarged, but normal for an athlete's heart, not hypertrophic cardiomyopathy - OK to play sports"? If not, respect for the family would probably include not spreading unsubstantiated rumors about how he died, or that the NCAA and NFL are responsible for his death. Dontcha think?

Wow...you are a spin doctor. I don't need to know the guy's medical history to know he died of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. I also know the NFL's policy on screening individuals...and that is what I call reckless.

Lets go over what I know and my logic...for the last time (if you don't get it you just don't)
1) The NFL DOES NOT do echos on every player unless they are deemed "high risk".
2) I know he didn't get an echo because he is dead...clear enough?
3) From preliminary reports it was from hypertrophic cardiomyopathy...dead, hypertrophic cardiomyopathy=didn't get an echo. With a thorough history, physical exam, ekg, and echo in a 20 yo+ there should be a 100% success rate in finding HCM. It will have to be confirmed with more invasive studies...but it won't be missed. If he got these tests he would not be dead. I don't need a chart in front of me to be able to come to correct conclusions by logical deduction and medical expertise.
4) If the NFL had the ability to screen him adequately and chose not to...which obviously they did not (or again he wouldn't be dead) then were they responsible? The NFL didn't create his heart but they certainly didn't use the testing and the evidence to keep him from playing. I will let the court of public opinion decide that. I personally believe the NFL owes it to all players to do extensive cardiac work ups on all players...which includes an echo.

As for a straw man argument...well that would be valid if you hadn't misrepresented yourself as knowing something about the NFL policies and HCM. You said he could have had a negative echo and initial screening right? That's incorrect. So, I think my argument was valid and directed appropriately.

I know you don't like me here. That's ok. But, I would suggest taking a deep breath, counting to 10 and ask yourself...is it worth getting all worked up over a message board?

Come on man.

Any chance of your showing a little remorse for your abuse of power when you were trusted with being a moderator here, deleting posts of people you didn't like/agree with and the like?

Shawn
01-18-2010, 01:02 AM
You are funny. You bite off a little more than you can chew then go back to some old axes to grind with me? Typical. I'll tell you what...I'll make a deal with you. Admit that you are ignorant and I'll let you know why a few members were banned from PS. They were all with cause. You seem to be bent on knowing the reasons. Do we have a deal?

Shawn
01-18-2010, 01:05 AM
PS-And yes I have some remorse over how I handled certain situations. No matter how right I believed I was...John owns this board. His opinion was the only one that really mattered in the decision making process of who to keep and who not to keep from the Trib. Live and learn I suppose. I don't claim to be perfect. I do wish I would have banned you however. :)

SanAntonioSteelerFan
01-18-2010, 01:31 AM
You are funny. You bite off a little more than you can chew then go back to some old axes to grind with me? Typical. I'll tell you what...I'll make a deal with you. Admit that you are ignorant and I'll let you know why a few members were banned from PS. They were all with cause. You seem to be bent on knowing the reasons. Do we have a deal?


PS-And yes I have some remorse over how I handled certain situations. No matter how right I believed I was...John owns this board. His opinion was the only one that really mattered in the decision making process of who to keep and who not to keep from the Trib. Live and learn I suppose. I don't claim to be perfect. I do wish I would have banned you however. :)

I'm responding to what I thought was a sincere attempt by you to set things right ("Come on man ..."). If it makes you more comfortable to think I wrote that because bit off a little more than I can chew, go right ahead.

And if it makes you feel better to think I'm ignorant, hey go with it.

But all I was asking for was your apology to the board for abusing the trust they had in you as moderator (including me), deleting posts of people just because you didn't like them or agree with them. Until you do, you're right - I'm not happy with you on this board. In hindsight, I should have known :HeadBanger , if you were the kind of person who believes in apologies (to others :D ), you would have made them to the board as soon as YOU were unbanned and allowed back on the board (or did you sneak back in without checking with the moderators/owner of the board?).

I have no desire to know why someone or other was banned. I'm not talking about people you banned. I'm talking about people that got so disgusted with you that they voluntarily left. Hope that helps :lol:

Now here's an alternative to the deal you offered. I WILL admit I am ignorant. And you WILL apologize to the board for abusing the trust we had in you as moderator by deleting posts simply because you were unhappy with the posters or disagreed with what they said.

Deal?

Shawn
01-18-2010, 01:53 AM
You are funny. You bite off a little more than you can chew then go back to some old axes to grind with me? Typical. I'll tell you what...I'll make a deal with you. Admit that you are ignorant and I'll let you know why a few members were banned from PS. They were all with cause. You seem to be bent on knowing the reasons. Do we have a deal?


PS-And yes I have some remorse over how I handled certain situations. No matter how right I believed I was...John owns this board. His opinion was the only one that really mattered in the decision making process of who to keep and who not to keep from the Trib. Live and learn I suppose. I don't claim to be perfect. I do wish I would have banned you however. :)

I'm responding to what I thought was a sincere attempt by you to set things right ("Come on man ..."). If it makes you more comfortable to think I wrote that because bit off a little more than I can chew, go right ahead.

And if it makes you feel better to think I'm ignorant, hey go with it.

But all I was asking for was your apology to the board for abusing the trust they had in you as moderator (including me), deleting posts of people just because you didn't like them or agree with them. Until you do, you're right - I'm not happy with you on this board. In hindsight, I should have known :HeadBanger , if you were the kind of person who believes in apologies (to others :D ), you would have made them to the board as soon as YOU were unbanned and allowed back on the board (or did you sneak back in without checking with the moderators/owner of the board?).

I have no desire to know why someone or other was banned. I'm not talking about people you banned. I'm talking about people that got so disgusted with you that they voluntarily left. Hope that helps :lol:

Now here's an alternative to the deal you offered. I WILL admit I am ignorant. And you WILL apologize to the board for abusing the trust we had in you as moderator by deleting posts simply because you were unhappy with the posters or disagreed with what they said.

Deal?

None of that is true...and I won't continue defending myself. If you don't like me or my moderatorship...tough cookies. Jhansle knows I'm here. Complain to him. No one wants to read your drama. Stick with football.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
01-18-2010, 02:19 AM
You are funny. You bite off a little more than you can chew then go back to some old axes to grind with me? Typical. I'll tell you what...I'll make a deal with you. Admit that you are ignorant and I'll let you know why a few members were banned from PS. They were all with cause. You seem to be bent on knowing the reasons. Do we have a deal?


PS-And yes I have some remorse over how I handled certain situations. No matter how right I believed I was...John owns this board. His opinion was the only one that really mattered in the decision making process of who to keep and who not to keep from the Trib. Live and learn I suppose. I don't claim to be perfect. I do wish I would have banned you however. :)

I'm responding to what I thought was a sincere attempt by you to set things right ("Come on man ..."). If it makes you more comfortable to think I wrote that because bit off a little more than I can chew, go right ahead.

And if it makes you feel better to think I'm ignorant, hey go with it.

But all I was asking for was your apology to the board for abusing the trust they had in you as moderator (including me), deleting posts of people just because you didn't like them or agree with them. Until you do, you're right - I'm not happy with you on this board. In hindsight, I should have known :HeadBanger , if you were the kind of person who believes in apologies (to others :D ), you would have made them to the board as soon as YOU were unbanned and allowed back on the board (or did you sneak back in without checking with the moderators/owner of the board?).

I have no desire to know why someone or other was banned. I'm not talking about people you banned. I'm talking about people that got so disgusted with you that they voluntarily left. Hope that helps :lol:

Now here's an alternative to the deal you offered. I WILL admit I am ignorant. And you WILL apologize to the board for abusing the trust we had in you as moderator by deleting posts simply because you were unhappy with the posters or disagreed with what they said.

Deal?

None of that is true...and I won't continue defending myself. If you don't like me or my moderatorship...tough cookies. Jhansle knows I'm here. Complain to him. No one wants to read your drama. Stick with football.

I guess that means, "No deal"?

No problem, the facts speak for themselves.

BTW - I kept forgetting to ask you about something you mentioned in another thread, that after you were banned here as "ShawnMedGuy", you ran a board with 200 members. Was that a Steelers board? I'd love to go check it out, and maybe some others would also - which one was it?

Shawn
01-18-2010, 02:22 AM
You are funny. You bite off a little more than you can chew then go back to some old axes to grind with me? Typical. I'll tell you what...I'll make a deal with you. Admit that you are ignorant and I'll let you know why a few members were banned from PS. They were all with cause. You seem to be bent on knowing the reasons. Do we have a deal?


PS-And yes I have some remorse over how I handled certain situations. No matter how right I believed I was...John owns this board. His opinion was the only one that really mattered in the decision making process of who to keep and who not to keep from the Trib. Live and learn I suppose. I don't claim to be perfect. I do wish I would have banned you however. :)

I'm responding to what I thought was a sincere attempt by you to set things right ("Come on man ..."). If it makes you more comfortable to think I wrote that because bit off a little more than I can chew, go right ahead.

And if it makes you feel better to think I'm ignorant, hey go with it.

But all I was asking for was your apology to the board for abusing the trust they had in you as moderator (including me), deleting posts of people just because you didn't like them or agree with them. Until you do, you're right - I'm not happy with you on this board. In hindsight, I should have known :HeadBanger , if you were the kind of person who believes in apologies (to others :D ), you would have made them to the board as soon as YOU were unbanned and allowed back on the board (or did you sneak back in without checking with the moderators/owner of the board?).

I have no desire to know why someone or other was banned. I'm not talking about people you banned. I'm talking about people that got so disgusted with you that they voluntarily left. Hope that helps :lol:

Now here's an alternative to the deal you offered. I WILL admit I am ignorant. And you WILL apologize to the board for abusing the trust we had in you as moderator by deleting posts simply because you were unhappy with the posters or disagreed with what they said.

Deal?

None of that is true...and I won't continue defending myself. If you don't like me or my moderatorship...tough cookies. Jhansle knows I'm here. Complain to him. No one wants to read your drama. Stick with football.

I guess that means, "No deal"?

No problem, the facts speak for themselves.

BTW - I kept forgetting to ask you about something you mentioned in another thread, that after you were banned here as "ShawnMedGuy", you ran a board with 200 members. Was that a Steelers board? I'd love to go check it out, and maybe some others would also - which one was it?

:roll: And you call me abusive to members. Pot call kettle...wow.

Shawn
01-18-2010, 02:24 AM
Out of curiosity...do you remember which post of yours I deleted? What was the subject?

feltdizz
01-18-2010, 02:27 AM
Does this really need to go down in a RIP thread? Talk about disrespectful...

Shawn
01-18-2010, 02:29 AM
Does this really need to go down in a RIP thread? Talk about disrespectful...

I agree. And I apologize for my part in it.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
01-18-2010, 02:34 AM
Does this really need to go down in a RIP thread? Talk about disrespectful...

I agree. And I apologize for my part in it.


OK, dizz, you get the Nobel Peace Prize, or at least the Planet Peace Prize. No disrespect intended, and I'm sorry for doing this on this thread also.