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Chadman
01-12-2010, 06:35 PM
Morning all.

Chadman just read an article about the Redskins O-Line & Mike Shanahan's use of the Zone Blocking Syatem. At one point it details the requirements of a good ZB O-Lineman- wanted your thoughts on if this fits the Steelers O-Lineman..

"The other difference -- the MAIN difference, probably -- is the personnel that's used. According to Redskins Examiner Mark Newgent's excellent explication of Shanahan's zone blocking, this system is ideal for linemen who fit the following categories.

Quick, even at the cost of size.
Disciplined, even if the assignment seems pointless.
Consistent, not giving visual cues to the defender as to their initial intention.
Smart, able to keep up with defensive shifts before the snap."

So- what do you think? Is this the Steelers OL to you? Starks, Colon, Kemoeatu, Hartwig, Essex, Stapleton, Urbik, Legursky, Hills? Quick? Disciplined? Consistent? Smart?

Any wonder Ben gets sacked so often?

Here's the whole article if you are interested- http://blog.redskins.com/2010/01/11/mon ... -blocking/ (http://blog.redskins.com/2010/01/11/monday-january-11-probably-time-to-brush-up-on-zone-blocking/)

Chadman's take- if the Steelers want to stick with Zone Blocking, they need some new personell.

Might be better to go back to Man Blocking with these guys though.

Mister Pittsburgh
01-12-2010, 07:38 PM
I think your assessment is correct. Closest two we have to fitting into that type of scheme are Kemo & Legursky probably. Legursky runs in the 4.8 range for the 40.

Chadman
01-12-2010, 07:45 PM
I think your assessment is correct. Closest two we have to fitting into that type of scheme are Kemo & Legursky probably. Legursky runs in the 4.8 range for the 40.

Probably add Stapleton to that- he played ZB extensively at Rutgers.

Chadman
01-12-2010, 07:46 PM
That being said, Chadman still thinks going back to smash 'em up Man Blocking might better suit this OL's talents.

feltdizz
01-12-2010, 08:30 PM
Our OL is slow and huge... I think Denver had lean blockers who weren't big at all, they cut blocked too.

Chadman
01-12-2010, 08:32 PM
Our OL is slow and huge... I think Denver had lean blockers who weren't big at all, they cut blocked too.

Agreed...but what does that say about the Steelers trying to use Zone Blocking & giving up 50+ sacks 2 years in a row?

RussBII
01-12-2010, 08:46 PM
Our OL is slow and huge... I think Denver had lean blockers who weren't big at all, they cut blocked too.

Agreed...but what does that say about the Steelers trying to use Zone Blocking & giving up 50+ sacks 2 years in a row?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Zone Block was primarily a run game thing...

Or am I just bass ackwards here?

winwithd
01-12-2010, 08:49 PM
Does it say that BA doesn't know how to utilize the talent he has to work with?
Maybe the line's blocking scheme isn't his choice to make, I don't know. But it falls along the same lines as not throwing to your 6'7" TE or 6'4" receiver in the red zone. Or not having any roll outs or run options for a QB with incredible speed and quickness.

Chadman
01-13-2010, 12:23 AM
Larry Z was hired & it was his wish to install zone blocking. Pretty sure arians gets a pass on this one- Tomlin might not, however..

feltdizz
01-13-2010, 03:13 AM
Does it say that BA doesn't know how to utilize the talent he has to work with?
Maybe the line's blocking scheme isn't his choice to make, I don't know. But it falls along the same lines as not throwing to your 6'7" TE or 6'4" receiver in the red zone. Or not having any roll outs or run options for a QB with incredible speed and quickness.

I thought we threw to Miller a ton this year.. "compared to most Steeler years." Miller dropped a few more then usually, which is not much, but he also had an incredible grab in the Miami game. I think Ben throws to Miller at a decent clip overall.

If you are talking about Dennis Dixon then I need only remind you of Pat White.. Dixon was all we had and we used him perfectly. No one expected it to be that close.
If you are talking about Ben in regards to speed then I'll stop here.

Jooser
01-13-2010, 09:24 AM
This line is indeed ill-fitted for the zone blocking scheme. Also, in the ZB running scheme, you use a lot of cut back type running plays. Mendy had a lot of success when he made the first guy miss and reversed track a bit. With the size of this unit and no indication yet there will be any personnel changes, we should indeed find us a good "man -up" blocking type of coach to fix this unit. We're on the same page Chadman.

steelsnis
01-13-2010, 10:13 AM
I think the whole "zone blocking scheme" is a bit overblown. Did you watch the Ravens game this weekend? Ray Rice went 81 yards on a play that utilized zone-blocking. They replayed it over and over and the analyst mentioned more than once how well that play was zone blocked.

The Ravens line is gigantic too, no?

steelblood
01-13-2010, 10:41 AM
It was once explained to me that there are two different zone blocking styles. One uses more fluid, smaller athletes. The other depends on larger blockers.

Still, our best running plays are mostly the ones that have been in the playbook forever (since before Zierlin or Arians).

Oviedo
01-13-2010, 10:59 AM
I think Coach Z came here with the intent to implement ZBS which can be effective for both running and passing. His downfall was that the schemes he employed were never able to establish a consistent level of dominance in either the running game or the passing game. IMO that is what ultimately cost him his job. Tomlin essentially gave him the time and the results never came.

I do agree that with the OL we have a more smashmouth approach may be warranted. Except for Hartwig and Colon I don't think any of our starting 5 OL fit the characteristics that typically define a good ZBS lineman.

I woulkd l,ove to hear that Joe Bugel was getting considered for the OL coach job. The guy is very good at what he does but he is also in the LeBeau age group where he may want to ratchet it back unlike LeBeau. Tomlin may also want someone who could be a longer term solution for stability at that position.

steelblood
01-13-2010, 11:25 AM
I think Coach Z came here with the intent to implement ZBS which can be effective for both running and passing. His downfall was that the schemes he employed were never able to establish a consistent level of dominance in either the running game or the passing game. IMO that is what ultimately cost him his job. Tomlin essentially gave him the time and the results never came.

I do agree that with the OL we have a more smashmouth approach may be warranted. Except for Hartwig and Colon I don't think any of our starting 5 OL fit the characteristics that typically define a good ZBS lineman.

I woulkd l,ove to hear that Joe Bugel was getting considered for the OL coach job. The guy is very good at what he does but he is also in the LeBeau age group where he may want to ratchet it back unlike LeBeau. Tomlin may also want someone who could be a longer term solution for stability at that position.

I thought Bugel retired.

Oviedo
01-13-2010, 11:49 AM
I think Coach Z came here with the intent to implement ZBS which can be effective for both running and passing. His downfall was that the schemes he employed were never able to establish a consistent level of dominance in either the running game or the passing game. IMO that is what ultimately cost him his job. Tomlin essentially gave him the time and the results never came.

I do agree that with the OL we have a more smashmouth approach may be warranted. Except for Hartwig and Colon I don't think any of our starting 5 OL fit the characteristics that typically define a good ZBS lineman.

I woulkd l,ove to hear that Joe Bugel was getting considered for the OL coach job. The guy is very good at what he does but he is also in the LeBeau age group where he may want to ratchet it back unlike LeBeau. Tomlin may also want someone who could be a longer term solution for stability at that position.

I thought Bugel retired.

I haven't seen anything about that. He was active as the Redskins OL coach last season. However he is 69 so that may have happened after Zorn got fired.

But what does retired really mean to any of these guys when someone brings dollars their way.

steelblood
01-13-2010, 12:11 PM
I think Coach Z came here with the intent to implement ZBS which can be effective for both running and passing. His downfall was that the schemes he employed were never able to establish a consistent level of dominance in either the running game or the passing game. IMO that is what ultimately cost him his job. Tomlin essentially gave him the time and the results never came.

I do agree that with the OL we have a more smashmouth approach may be warranted. Except for Hartwig and Colon I don't think any of our starting 5 OL fit the characteristics that typically define a good ZBS lineman.

I woulkd l,ove to hear that Joe Bugel was getting considered for the OL coach job. The guy is very good at what he does but he is also in the LeBeau age group where he may want to ratchet it back unlike LeBeau. Tomlin may also want someone who could be a longer term solution for stability at that position.

I thought Bugel retired.

I haven't seen anything about that. He was active as the Redskins OL coach last season. However he is 69 so that may have happened after Zorn got fired.

But what does retired really mean to any of these guys when someone brings dollars their way.

I think the retirement was recent.

Mister Pittsburgh
01-13-2010, 12:45 PM
Does it say that BA doesn't know how to utilize the talent he has to work with?
Maybe the line's blocking scheme isn't his choice to make, I don't know. But it falls along the same lines as not throwing to your 6'7" TE or 6'4" receiver in the red zone. Or not having any roll outs or run options for a QB with incredible speed and quickness.

I thought we threw to Miller a ton this year.. "compared to most Steeler years." Miller dropped a few more then usually, which is not much, but he also had an incredible grab in the Miami game. I think Ben throws to Miller at a decent clip overall.

If you are talking about Dennis Dixon then I need only remind you of Pat White.. Dixon was all we had and we used him perfectly. No one expected it to be that close.
If you are talking about Ben in regards to speed then I'll stop here.

He is talking about Spaeth, and I agree with him. 6'7" 270lbs. Was a 'pass catching TE out of Minnesota'....yet we ask him to strictly block. I am sure Heath is covered a lot as Ben goes to him a lot. Just like Wallace was open cause Holmes & Hines are covered a lot, Spaeth should also be able to sneak out once in a while.

feltdizz
01-13-2010, 02:04 PM
Does it say that BA doesn't know how to utilize the talent he has to work with?
Maybe the line's blocking scheme isn't his choice to make, I don't know. But it falls along the same lines as not throwing to your 6'7" TE or 6'4" receiver in the red zone. Or not having any roll outs or run options for a QB with incredible speed and quickness.

I thought we threw to Miller a ton this year.. "compared to most Steeler years." Miller dropped a few more then usually, which is not much, but he also had an incredible grab in the Miami game. I think Ben throws to Miller at a decent clip overall.

If you are talking about Dennis Dixon then I need only remind you of Pat White.. Dixon was all we had and we used him perfectly. No one expected it to be that close.
If you are talking about Ben in regards to speed then I'll stop here.

He is talking about Spaeth, and I agree with him. 6'7" 270lbs. Was a 'pass catching TE out of Minnesota'....yet we ask him to strictly block. I am sure Heath is covered a lot as Ben goes to him a lot. Just like Wallace was open cause Holmes & Hines are covered a lot, Spaeth should also be able to sneak out once in a while.
Sorry, I don't know our players bodies that well... :D
He filled in nice for Heath a few years back. Is it against the law to release 2 TE's?
and Spaeth's blocking is the weakest part of his game IMO.

Mister Pittsburgh
01-13-2010, 02:42 PM
Does it say that BA doesn't know how to utilize the talent he has to work with?
Maybe the line's blocking scheme isn't his choice to make, I don't know. But it falls along the same lines as not throwing to your 6'7" TE or 6'4" receiver in the red zone. Or not having any roll outs or run options for a QB with incredible speed and quickness.

I thought we threw to Miller a ton this year.. "compared to most Steeler years." Miller dropped a few more then usually, which is not much, but he also had an incredible grab in the Miami game. I think Ben throws to Miller at a decent clip overall.

If you are talking about Dennis Dixon then I need only remind you of Pat White.. Dixon was all we had and we used him perfectly. No one expected it to be that close.
If you are talking about Ben in regards to speed then I'll stop here.

He is talking about Spaeth, and I agree with him. 6'7" 270lbs. Was a 'pass catching TE out of Minnesota'....yet we ask him to strictly block. I am sure Heath is covered a lot as Ben goes to him a lot. Just like Wallace was open cause Holmes & Hines are covered a lot, Spaeth should also be able to sneak out once in a while.
Sorry, I don't know our players bodies that well... :D
He filled in nice for Heath a few years back. Is it against the law to release 2 TE's?
and Spaeth's blocking is the weakest part of his game IMO.

This is part of my problem with BA. They want a big target so they draft Sweed, and yet he is never in there inside the 20's and how much bigger can you get than 6'7"? Spaeth has shown he can catch when thrown to. Our secondary was abused by large TE's in the redzone in the past....this year specifically (Finley-Heap), when matched up with smaller CB's.

Slapstick
01-13-2010, 02:49 PM
I think the retirement was recent.

Really recent. Like earlier today.

Bugel is only 70. LeBeau thinks Bugel is a wuss for retiring so early.

pfelix73
01-13-2010, 04:30 PM
I'm getting tired of repeating things.... We don't always zone block. And every team from pee wee to high school to college to NFL zone blocks whether you know it or not.

It's actually pretty easy to do and any OLman can do it. All it is- is when a OL peels off a double team to pick up a LB. It's done all the time in every game. In fact, you can use a zone scheme on a trap, etc. This scenario would be an interior zone (G/C)

Example of one of the Steelers plays- Kemo pulls to the right to trap and the C and RG will implement a zone blocking scheme on the NG (if it's a 3-4) and then Essex would just peel off the block to pick up the LB. That's all it is.

And yes, it's just for run blocking like someone else mentioned. You can theroetically use a bit of zone for pass-blocking. I can see that- if that's what you want to call it- a zone....