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SanAntonioSteelerFan
01-11-2010, 07:18 PM
Their response is: because there was no twisting or turning of the head, it was not penalizable. Nothing to do with the 5yrd vs 15 yrd variety - that was thrown out last year. It's just that the NFL says grabbing the facemask isn't the penalty, it's twisting or pulling the head that is.

I'm at work, so I can't see the youtube, but ... wasn't Rodger's head turned by the defender?

I put this in its own thread, even though the topic is in another one, because I thought it was definitive enough that more people might read it this way. Mods, if wrong call on my part ... please merge!

Thanks -


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http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2010 ... k-penalty/ (http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/11/when-is-grabbing-the-facemask-not-a-facemask-penalty/)


The Fifth Down - The New York Times N.F.L. Blog
January 11, 2010, 4:07 pm
When Is Grabbing the Face Mask Not a Face-Mask Penalty?
By LYNN ZINSER
Rick Scuteri/Reuters The sight of Cardinals cornerback Michael Adams with a finger hooked on Green Bay quarterback Aaron Rodgers’s face mask on the final play of Sunday’s playoff game raised the question of why no penalty was called.

To some, the picture speaks 1,000 words and four of them are: the Packers were robbed. The image of Cardinals cornerback Michael Adams with his index finger hooked on Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers’s face mask was captured far and wide, sparking the question of whether it was a penalty and why it did not negate the fumble Adams caused. The question gets louder because the fumble Adams caused turned into the game-winning touchdown in overtime of the N.F.C. wild card playoff game when linebacker Karlos Dansby ran it into the end zone.

Here is the explanation from the N.F.L., which affirms the no call, courtesy of the spokesman Greg Aiello:

Rule Explanation from the final play of the Green Bay Packers-Arizona Cardinals game

A “face-mask” penalty is a judgment call that is not reviewable by replay.

Rule 12, Section 2, Article 5 of the NFL Rule Book (page 81) states that “no player shall twist, turn, or pull the face mask of an opponent in any direction.”

The Rule Book describes the penalty as follows:

“Penalty: For twisting, turning or pulling the mask: loss of 15 yards. A personal foul. The player may be disqualified if the action is judged by the official(s) to be of a flagrant nature.”

The Rule Book describes an approved ruling as it relates to face-mask penalties (page 81).

“A.R. 12.12 – Third-and-10 on A30. Runner A1 runs to the A33, where he is tackled by B1, who incidentally grasps A1’s face mask on the tackle, but it is not a twist, turn or pull. Ruling: A’s ball, fourth-and-seven, on A33. No foul.”

Aiello went on to explain that the rules changed before the 2008 season, getting rid of the five-yard penalty for an incidental grab of the face mask. Now, the grab has to reach the level of a 15-yard penalty for the officials to make a call.

For the Packers, the play fell in a pile of questionable calls in the game. One play before the fateful face-mask/fumble, Rodgers was on the receiving end of a helmet-to-helmet hit that was not called and on an earlier touchdown pass from Arizona’s Kurt Warner, receiver Larry Fitzgerald knocked down Packers cornerback Charles Woodson on the way to the end zone, but that was not called either.

Packers players were not up in arms about the final call as they reviewed the painful end to their season on Monday.

“You know what, that’s just how it goes,” linebacker Aaron Kampman said, according to the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel. “You can’t just say it was one play in the football game. There were a lot of plays in that football game and depending on this, that and the other thing, so…”

The Cardinals largely echoed that, although Coach Ken Whisenhunt did say he wished his team had won with a field goal in regulation — Neil Rackers missed a 34-yarder with 14 seconds left — because “it would have been a clearer victory for us.”

Whisenhunt said he was also glad Rodgers’s fumble did not hit the ground (it bounced off Rodgers’s leg before Dansby grabbed it), because that would have launched a debate about the dreaded “tuck rule,” made famous by the Patriots’ Tom Brady and the non-fumble in 2002. Whisenhunt said he believed the play could have been ruled no fumble if the ball had hit the ground.

“I think it could have been,” he said. “Do you rule that as an interception or a fumble? I’m glad it didn’t hit the ground because that erases any doubt about what it is.”

Instead, all the doubt centered instead on the face mask grab and the penalty that wasn’t.
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Steel Life
01-11-2010, 07:30 PM
A damage-control rationalization...did anyone really think they'd own up to it?

NJ-STEELER
01-11-2010, 07:56 PM
if it happened before the fumble, i think GB has a legitamate beef.

he definately grabbed the mask... dont feel it effected the play much

SanAntonioSteelerFan
01-11-2010, 08:00 PM
if it happened before the fumble, i think GB has a legitamate beef.

he definately grabbed the mask... dont feel it effected the play much

THe only way it might have is if it somehow kept Rodgers from recovering the fumble. I didn't think that was the case, but it sucks that such a key game had to end like that.

fordfixer
01-11-2010, 08:32 PM
The face mask was after the fumble so would the ball be given back to Green Bay?

RuthlessBurgher
01-11-2010, 08:37 PM
The way that they've been calling it recently, it seems that any contact with the QB's head whatsoever (regardless of whether or not a facemask was twisted or pulled or whatever) seemed to be an automatic penalty against the defense. I'm not saying that I agree with this necessarily, but whatever way they choose to call it, they should be consistent with it.

Wolfhound45
01-11-2010, 08:44 PM
You make the call (because I could care less).

[youtube:13rreqsq]lZCbmc0IIM4[/youtube:13rreqsq]

Thanks to stlrzd for showing me that nifty trick.

Wolfhound45
01-11-2010, 08:53 PM
Another look...

http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_nfl_experts__19/ept_sports_nfl_experts-313581501-1263181137.jpg?ymSFDgCDMt2Sxpvt

These refs will never be accused of coddling the quarterback

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdo ... nfl,212716 (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/These-refs-will-never-be-accused-of-coddling-the;_ylt=Avs3mze1yI.z_C6m2LRO.JJDubYF?urn=nfl,2127 16)

Best blogger quote - Basically, the guy wasn't watching because it wasn't his job to watch. That's a great tip for all you young defensive players out there: After the quarterback fumbles, it's the ideal time to stab him with a sharpened toothbrush. No one's looking!

Another blogger said that the "tuck rule" should have been invoked! :shock:

stlrz d
01-11-2010, 10:40 PM
Leave the complaining about officiating to Ravens fans please.

Thank you...that is all. :)

papillon
01-11-2010, 10:41 PM
It should have been called whether it was before the fumble after the fumble or while Rodgers was on his way to the locker room. Any contact to the quarterback's face or head has been a penalty all year regardless of when it occurred during the play. That's Peirea trying to protect his guys again. The refereeing is bad and getting worse with each passing year. Not only is it bad, but, inconsistent as well.

Pappy

Wolfhound45
01-11-2010, 11:46 PM
It should have been called whether it was before the fumble after the fumble or while Rodgers was on his way to the locker room. Any contact to the quarterback's face or head has been a penalty all year regardless of when it occurred during the play. That's Peirea trying to protect his guys again. The refereeing is bad and getting worse with each passing year. Not only is it bad, but, inconsistent as well.

Pappy

Actually Pap, you make a great point. I really did not care (as noted earlier) because the Steelers are not in the playoffs. However, if that had happened to Ben on a play that ended a game, I must admit, I would be pretty ticked off. Pretty blatant that there was a foul. The only question (to me) is, is this a post-possession foul? I would have to think yes. Cardinals ball, fifteen yard penalty from the spot of the foul. Still in overtime.

RuthlessBurgher
01-12-2010, 11:16 AM
Another blogger said that the "tuck rule" should have been invoked! :shock:

The tuck rule wouldn't have mattered, since the ball never hit the ground. If they ruled that his arm was going forward when he was hit, they would have ruled it a pass instead of a fumble, but since Rodgers kicked the ball up in the air before it hit the turf, the only ramification that the tuck rule would have had would be that Dansby would have had an interception return for a TD instead of a fumble return for a TD. Either way, game over.

Jooser
01-12-2010, 11:31 AM
You can bet your sweet arse that Marcia Brady would've drawn a flag!

papillon
01-12-2010, 11:44 AM
It should have been called whether it was before the fumble after the fumble or while Rodgers was on his way to the locker room. Any contact to the quarterback's face or head has been a penalty all year regardless of when it occurred during the play. That's Peirea trying to protect his guys again. The refereeing is bad and getting worse with each passing year. Not only is it bad, but, inconsistent as well.

Pappy

Actually Pap, you make a great point. I really did not care (as noted earlier) because the Steelers are not in the playoffs. However, if that had happened to Ben on a play that ended a game, I must admit, I would be pretty ticked off. Pretty blatant that there was a foul. The only question (to me) is, is this a post-possession foul? I would have to think yes. Cardinals ball, fifteen yard penalty from the spot of the foul. Still in overtime.

I'm with ya, I don't have a dog in the fight, but the officiating in the NFL continues to regress every year. I will never make the excuse that the Steelers lost a game due to officiating, however, poor officiating does ruin the game and that's the part that bothers me, because, I enjoy watching football games.

Pappy

steelsun7
01-12-2010, 11:44 AM
It should have been called whether it was before the fumble after the fumble or while Rodgers was on his way to the locker room. Any contact to the quarterback's face or head has been a penalty all year regardless of when it occurred during the play. That's Peirea trying to protect his guys again. The refereeing is bad and getting worse with each passing year. Not only is it bad, but, inconsistent as well.

Pappy

Actually Pap, you make a great point. I really did not care (as noted earlier) because the Steelers are not in the playoffs. However, if that had happened to Ben on a play that ended a game, I must admit, I would be pretty ticked off. Pretty blatant that there was a foul. The only question (to me) is, is this a post-possession foul? I would have to think yes. Cardinals ball, fifteen yard penalty from the spot of the foul. Still in overtime.

Wolf, I believe since the ball had not changed possession before the facemask it still would have been GB ball

papillon
01-12-2010, 12:26 PM
It should have been called whether it was before the fumble after the fumble or while Rodgers was on his way to the locker room. Any contact to the quarterback's face or head has been a penalty all year regardless of when it occurred during the play. That's Peirea trying to protect his guys again. The refereeing is bad and getting worse with each passing year. Not only is it bad, but, inconsistent as well.

Pappy

Actually Pap, you make a great point. I really did not care (as noted earlier) because the Steelers are not in the playoffs. However, if that had happened to Ben on a play that ended a game, I must admit, I would be pretty ticked off. Pretty blatant that there was a foul. The only question (to me) is, is this a post-possession foul? I would have to think yes. Cardinals ball, fifteen yard penalty from the spot of the foul. Still in overtime.

Wolf, I believe since the ball had not changed possession before the facemask it still would have been GB ball

Even if it was post possession the game would not have ended and Green Bay would have still had a chance to play and win after the mistake. But, inconsistency in officiating didn't even give the Packers a chance.

Pappy

Mister Pittsburgh
01-12-2010, 01:55 PM
Should have definatley been a helmet to helmet hit on the play before the final play. Dude pretty much ran in and head butted Rodgers with no flag drawn for it.

SteelerNation1
01-12-2010, 03:14 PM
Should have definatley been a helmet to helmet hit on the play before the final play. Dude pretty much ran in and head butted Rodgers with no flag drawn for it.
That's what I was going to say. The only QB that DOESN'T get that call is Ben, and Rodgers apparently.

proudpittsburgher
01-12-2010, 03:38 PM
At the very worst for GB, arizona gets the ball, but a 15 yard penalty from the spot of the recovery. At least Green Bay has a chance to do something about it, albeit an unlikely chance, btu a chance nonetheless. That whole, "didn't grasp or pull the facemask down" crap is just that, crap. That's why they got rid of the five yard penalty. Any contact with the facemask is a penalty.

feltdizz
01-12-2010, 03:43 PM
Should have definatley been a helmet to helmet hit on the play before the final play. Dude pretty much ran in and head butted Rodgers with no flag drawn for it.
That's what I was going to say. The only QB that DOESN'T get that call is Ben, and Rodgers apparently.
Maybe it's because they are in the 50 sack club. When have 50 sacks refs tend to overlook a few hits. LOL.

I didn't even see the facemask until I saw the ESPN photo. It was pretty bang bang IMO. Now the previous play.. that was blatant head to head and should have been called. I'm happy with the outcome because it shuts up the overtime rule change crowd.

RuthlessBurgher
01-12-2010, 03:49 PM
Should have definatley been a helmet to helmet hit on the play before the final play. Dude pretty much ran in and head butted Rodgers with no flag drawn for it.
That's what I was going to say. The only QB that DOESN'T get that call is Ben, and Rodgers apparently.
Maybe it's because they are in the 50 sack club. When have 50 sacks refs tend to overlook a few hits. LOL.

I didn't even see the facemask until I saw the ESPN photo. It was pretty bang bang IMO. Now the previous play.. that was blatant head to head and should have been called. I'm happy with the outcome because it shuts up the overtime rule change crowd.

I think they should change the overtime rules.

Didn't work. :mrgreen:

stlrz d
01-12-2010, 10:18 PM
At the very worst for GB, arizona gets the ball, but a 15 yard penalty from the spot of the recovery. At least Green Bay has a chance to do something about it, albeit an unlikely chance, btu a chance nonetheless. That whole, "didn't grasp or pull the facemask down" crap is just that, crap. That's why they got rid of the five yard penalty. Any contact with the facemask is a penalty.

Actually that's not true. They got rid of the 5 yard penalty because it was too subjective. Now they are all 15 yards, but there must be a "grasp, pull and/or twist" to draw the flag.

So how about that horse collar penalty that was called on AZ when the Packers player wasn't actually pulled down by the collar? That gave the Packers another 15 yards and I believe they ended up scoring on that drive, thanks in part to that extra 15 yards.

Where's the outrage?

Like I said, leave the whining and crying about officiating to the Ravens fans...it's their niche...and their Nietzsche. :D

(Nietzsche questioned the value of objectivity and truth) :P

stlrz d
01-12-2010, 10:39 PM
Heh...Greg Jennings was just touched down by contact from an AZ DB but they missed it. Jennings ran the ball all the way to the 3 YL and two plays later scored a TD with a one handed grab.

Damn officials!!! :lol:

fordfixer
01-12-2010, 11:21 PM
Heh...Greg Jennings was just touched down by contact from an AZ DB but they missed it. Jennings ran the ball all the way to the 3 YL and two plays later scored a TD with a one handed grab.

Damn officials!!! :lol:


Hmmm you a Ravens fan now? :lol: :lol:

proudpittsburgher
01-13-2010, 07:31 AM
So how about that horse collar penalty that was called on AZ when the Packers player wasn't actually pulled down by the collar? That gave the Packers another 15 yards and I believe they ended up scoring on that drive, thanks in part to that extra 15 yards.

Where's the outrage?

Certainly not going to lose any sleep over this . . . but the outrage over this call was that it ended the game. The facemask should have been called and given the cardinals the ball 15 yards from the spot fo the foul. Ariz would have still likely won the game, but that is a hell of a way for a season to go down.

stlrz d
01-13-2010, 09:40 AM
So how about that horse collar penalty that was called on AZ when the Packers player wasn't actually pulled down by the collar? That gave the Packers another 15 yards and I believe they ended up scoring on that drive, thanks in part to that extra 15 yards.

Where's the outrage?

Certainly not going to lose any sleep over this . . . but the outrage over this call was that it ended the game. The facemask should have been called and given the cardinals the ball 15 yards from the spot fo the foul. Ariz would have still likely won the game, but that is a hell of a way for a season to go down.

If the Packers hadn't scored on that drive with the HC penalty the game may have never gone to OT and may not have ended the way it did. ;) :P

Calls are made and calls are missed. That's the way it goes.

JAR
01-13-2010, 10:04 AM
I wonder if the Cards fans are whining about the officiating in that game like they were the SB last year? :)

SanAntonioSteelerFan
01-13-2010, 10:22 AM
At the very worst for GB, arizona gets the ball, but a 15 yard penalty from the spot of the recovery. At least Green Bay has a chance to do something about it, albeit an unlikely chance, btu a chance nonetheless. That whole, "didn't grasp or pull the facemask down" crap is just that, crap. That's why they got rid of the five yard penalty. Any contact with the facemask is a penalty.

Actually that's not true. They got rid of the 5 yard penalty because it was too subjective. Now they are all 15 yards, but there must be a "grasp, pull and/or twist" to draw the flag.

So how about that horse collar penalty that was called on AZ when the Packers player wasn't actually pulled down by the collar? That gave the Packers another 15 yards and I believe they ended up scoring on that drive, thanks in part to that extra 15 yards.

Where's the outrage?

Like I said, leave the whining and crying about officiating to the Ravens fans...it's their niche...and their Nietzsche. :D

(Nietzsche questioned the value of objectivity and truth) :P

Did he really? Yikes, so how does he propose getting through life without a valid values system ('cause it doesn't help to have one if you can't use it as a metric, does it?). Oh well, I guess I'll just be a Steeler fan and forget about it.

BTW, d, that was one of the best lines I've read in this forum or elsewhere - Ravens fans with their absence of objectivity ... have their Niche .. in Nietzsche... :Bow :Bow Can you work Ray Nietchscke into that somehow :lol: :lol:

RuthlessBurgher
01-13-2010, 02:43 PM
At the very worst for GB, arizona gets the ball, but a 15 yard penalty from the spot of the recovery. At least Green Bay has a chance to do something about it, albeit an unlikely chance, btu a chance nonetheless. That whole, "didn't grasp or pull the facemask down" crap is just that, crap. That's why they got rid of the five yard penalty. Any contact with the facemask is a penalty.

Actually that's not true. They got rid of the 5 yard penalty because it was too subjective. Now they are all 15 yards, but there must be a "grasp, pull and/or twist" to draw the flag.

So how about that horse collar penalty that was called on AZ when the Packers player wasn't actually pulled down by the collar? That gave the Packers another 15 yards and I believe they ended up scoring on that drive, thanks in part to that extra 15 yards.

Where's the outrage?

Like I said, leave the whining and crying about officiating to the Ravens fans...it's their niche...and their Nietzsche. :D

(Nietzsche questioned the value of objectivity and truth) :P

"He who would learn to fly one day must first learn to stand and walk. One cannot fly into flying. That is not mine. That is Nietzsche's." :wink:

The most philosophical that Ray Nitschke got was saying things like "Packer fans are nuts, man." :lol:

California-Steel
01-13-2010, 03:21 PM
OK let’s say that it is not a face mask penalty, it still should have been a "Hands to the Face" call. I thought you could not touch the QB on the head at all. Plus any hand on the face mask will at least draw a Hands to the Face call.

But like someone already said, “Who Cares”!

ghettoscott
01-13-2010, 06:08 PM
You can bet your sweet arse that Marcia Brady would've drawn a flag!

^ :Agree $$$

stlrz d
01-13-2010, 10:05 PM
At the very worst for GB, arizona gets the ball, but a 15 yard penalty from the spot of the recovery. At least Green Bay has a chance to do something about it, albeit an unlikely chance, btu a chance nonetheless. That whole, "didn't grasp or pull the facemask down" crap is just that, crap. That's why they got rid of the five yard penalty. Any contact with the facemask is a penalty.

Actually that's not true. They got rid of the 5 yard penalty because it was too subjective. Now they are all 15 yards, but there must be a "grasp, pull and/or twist" to draw the flag.

So how about that horse collar penalty that was called on AZ when the Packers player wasn't actually pulled down by the collar? That gave the Packers another 15 yards and I believe they ended up scoring on that drive, thanks in part to that extra 15 yards.

Where's the outrage?

Like I said, leave the whining and crying about officiating to the Ravens fans...it's their niche...and their Nietzsche. :D

(Nietzsche questioned the value of objectivity and truth) :P

Did he really? Yikes, so how does he propose getting through life without a valid values system ('cause it doesn't help to have one if you can't use it as a metric, does it?). Oh well, I guess I'll just be a Steeler fan and forget about it.

BTW, d, that was one of the best lines I've read in this forum or elsewhere - Ravens fans with their absence of objectivity ... have their Niche .. in Nietzsche... :Bow :Bow Can you work Ray Nietchscke into that somehow :lol: :lol:

Thanks man. I know it sounds dumb but I was pretty proud of myself for making that connection. :D

As for Ray Nitshcke, the only thing I really recall of him is commercials he used to do for the Oldsmobile dealership in Green Bay. He would be standing next to the front driver side fender and growl the line, "I like the front wheel drive" while "picking up" the front of the car by said fender.

Not sure how to relate that to Ravens fans other than maybe they should all be run over by an Oldsmobile driven by the corpse of Ray Nitschke? :D :D :D