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steelnavy
01-10-2010, 09:37 PM
After reading how if the “haters” want BA fired, then they should also demand Lebeau’s head because the defense played worse this year, I decided to do some simple stat crunching in order to compare apples to apples and see who the good, bad and ugly really was.

I looked at offensive and defensive production in terms of points scored versus points allowed since that ultimately decides the game. I also did the same thing with the average “points for” and “points against” for each Steeler opponent. I removed all points from interception returns, fumble returns and special team scores so that I could compare just offensive and defensive production.

This is what I found:

The first interesting thing I noted is that when taking into consideration only offensive scoring, the Steelers win/loss record is 10-5-1 for the season.

In comparing how the Steelers O and D performed against the average O and D performance of each opponent, the units fell out as follows over the sixteen game season:

Performance......... Off........ Def
Well Above Avg.... 2........... 5
Above Avg........... 5........... 4
Average.............. 4........... 3
Below Avg........... 2........... 2
Well Below Avg..... 3........... 2


Note- Metrics used: Average is within two points of opponent’s mean points for or against, above or below average is within 10 points of opponent avg, and well above or well below average is greater than ten points from the mean.

Now lets look at each game comparing offensive and defensive production only

Titans game (W 13-10)
PIT O 13.... Avg points scored against Titans 24.7
PIT D 10.... Avg points scored by Titans 20.4

Steelers defense saves the day versus woeful effort by the offense. Win because of the Defense.

Chicago game (L 17-14)
PIT O 14.... Avg points scored against Bears 23.5
PIT D 17.... Avg points scored by Bears 18.9

The D holds their own but Steelers lose due to well below avg performance by the O. Loss hangs on Offense.

Cincinnati game (L 23-20)
PIT O 20.... Avg points scored against Bungals 17.4
PIT D 17.... Avg points scored by Bungals 17.4

Both the D and O held their own, but the O gave up an INT for a TD to lose the game. Loss hangs on Offense.

San Diego game (W 38-28)
PIT O 38.... Avg points scored against SD 19.1
PIT D 21.... Avg points scored by SD 26.1

Both squads performed well (the O really kicked butt). Both sides earn the win.

Detroit game (W 28-20)
PIT O 28.... Avg points scored against Detroit 29.0
PIT D 13.... Avg points scored by Detroit 14.9

Both squads played about average but the O gave up 7 on an INT for a TD to make the game closer than it should have been. Both sides earn the win.

Cleveland game (W 27-14)
PIT O 27.... Avg points scored against Browns 21.8
PIT D 07.... Avg points scored by Browns 15.3

Both squads performed above average and both earn the win.

Minnesota (W 27-17)
PIT O 13.... Avg points scored against Vikings 17.7
PIT D 14.... Avg points scored by Vikings 28.1

D played well above average and O played below average. The D saved the day with two fumble recoveries for TDs. Win because of the Defense.

Denver (W 28-10)
PIT O 21.... Avg points scored against Broncs 18.1
PIT D 03.... Avg points scored by Broncs 18.8

D played well above average and the O played above average. Both earned the win.

Cincinnati (L 18-12)
PIT O 12.... Avg points scored against Bungles 17.4
PIT D 12.... Avg points scored by Bungles 17.4

O performed below average and D performed above average. The Offense and Special Teams earned this loss.

Kansas City (L24-27)
PIT O 24.... Avg points scored against KC 24.3
PIT D 20.... Avg points scored by KC 16.9

The O played average and the D played below average. Loss is pinned on the D and ST.

Baltimore (L 20-17)
PIT O 17.... Avg points scored against Ravens 15.4
PIT D 20.... Avg points scored by Ravens 30.3

While the D delivered a slightly above average performance, the average play of the O costs the game.

Raiders (L 27-24)
PIT O 24.... Avg points scored against Raiders 23.1
PIT D 27.... Avg points scored by Raiders 12.3

The O played average and the D played well below average. D responsible for the loss.

Cleveland (L 13-6)
PIT O 06.... Avg points scored against Browns 21.8
PIT D 13.... Avg points scored by Browns 15.3

The D performed above average and the O performed well below average. The O is responsible for this embarrassing loss.

Green Bay (W37-36)
PIT O 37.... Avg points scored against GB 17.3
PIT D 36.... Avg points scored by GB 26.9

O performed well above average and the D played well below average. O saved the day.

Baltimore (W23-20)
PIT O 23.... Avg points scored against Ravens 15.4
PIT D 20.... Avg points scored by Ravens 30.3

Both O and D performed above average. That and a little luck wins this one.

Miami (W 30-24)
PIT O 30.... Avg points scored against Dolphins 23.3
PIT D 24.... Avg points scored by Dolphins 20.9

O delivers above average performance and D is below average. O earns the win.


Looking at the Steeler’s nine wins, the D and O earned five wins as a team, and each earned two wins despite the poor performance of the other.

Looking at the Steelers seven losses, the D was directly responsible for two of them and the O was responsible for five.

In general, the D performed better than the O, and did it minus two star defensive players (Polamalu and Smith). If the Offense lost two of their brightest stars for the season, how good would have they been then?

Finally, I looked at scoring per Qtr:

...............1st Qtr...2nd Qtr...3rd Qtr...4th Qtr... OT
Offense......81.........119........61.........83.. ........3 347
Defense.....39..........61.........47.........121. ........6 274


The D was obviously poor in the 4th qtr. Other than that, they performed well.

The D has its worst year in awhile and it still had better stats than the O.

Understanding that the game is a lot more complicated than what is presented, the stats do provide a way to compare results of the two units.

feltdizz
01-10-2010, 10:24 PM
Wow... you remind me of the drug companies who do their own data (number crunching) to show their drug works.

The first Titans game.. is that the season avg point total or just the Collins avg for the first 6 losses? They switched QB's and went on a roll.. just sayin?

The Chicago game... did you take into account Cutler's INT total of 26.. and I remember having the lead in that game even with 2 FG misses.

The first Cincy game.. we were a Sweed drop from going up 27-9.. so you are correct, the O failed. Thank goodness we were smart enough to bench Sweed and find out Wallace was a gem. Adjusting is a great thing.

I'm not going to go through each game.. I watched them.. I know the O can improve...
but like we saw tonight.. if the D can't stop anyone it doesn't matter how much you score.

steelnavy
01-10-2010, 11:03 PM
Wow... you remind me of the drug companies who do their own data (number crunching) to show their drug works.

The first Titans game.. is that the season avg point total or just the Collins avg for the first 6 losses? They switched QB's and went on a roll.. just sayin?

The Chicago game... did you take into account Cutler's INT total of 26.. and I remember having the lead in that game even with 2 FG misses.

The first Cincy game.. we were a Sweed drop from going up 27-9.. so you are correct, the O failed. Thank goodness we were smart enough to bench Sweed and find out Wallace was a gem. Adjusting is a great thing.

I'm not going to go through each game.. I watched them.. I know the O can improve...
but like we saw tonight.. if the D can't stop anyone it doesn't matter how much you score.

Seriously, I try to find a common place to debate from and you cry about it. I didn't cherry pick any stats. Yes there are a million variables, but this is a fair place to start from.

Go ahead and run away because all you and Burgh ever do is avoid answering/deflecting valid points about Arians' poor performance by crying that its all the Defense's fault. I laid out the facts. Disprove them, point out their weaknesses, make a good counterpoint or go home and play with your dolls.

Talk about picking your own stats to make a point; all you and Burgh ever bring up is our thousand yard receivers and RB. Big whoopty. Show me the correlation between that and success versus 3rd down and redzone efficiency (which the Steelers sucked at). Anytime something concrete comes up, you run for the hiils yelling "Defense sucks." Again, learn how to debate, which means actually responding to valid points that oppose your point of view.

BTW, seems to me that when the team goes into the second half with a big lead, that BOTH units had to play well to get us there, and if we lose a 10-20 point lead, then both units had to play poorly to get the team into that position. So what you are basically saying is that if the Steelers go into halftime up on the other team, say 14 to nothing, then the O and D did their jobs, and if the O doesnt score any more points in the second half and the D allows 14, then now its the D's fault? That is assinine. O needs to keep scoring. Look at their 3rd quarter production - major drop off.

I am not blaming everything on the O, but Arians is no genius and there is a lot better talent out there. BTW II, did you notice how the Ravens turned into an offensive machine since they hired Cam Cameron, WHO IS KNOWN AS AN OFFENSIVE GENIUS? Funny how that works...

SidSmythe
01-10-2010, 11:19 PM
Wow... you remind me of the drug companies who do their own data (number crunching) to show their drug works.



HeHe!!

feltdizz
01-10-2010, 11:48 PM
Wow... you remind me of the drug companies who do their own data (number crunching) to show their drug works.

The first Titans game.. is that the season avg point total or just the Collins avg for the first 6 losses? They switched QB's and went on a roll.. just sayin?

The Chicago game... did you take into account Cutler's INT total of 26.. and I remember having the lead in that game even with 2 FG misses.

The first Cincy game.. we were a Sweed drop from going up 27-9.. so you are correct, the O failed. Thank goodness we were smart enough to bench Sweed and find out Wallace was a gem. Adjusting is a great thing.

I'm not going to go through each game.. I watched them.. I know the O can improve...
but like we saw tonight.. if the D can't stop anyone it doesn't matter how much you score.

Seriously, I try to find a common place to debate from and you cry about it. I didn't cherry pick any stats. Yes there are a million variables, but this is a fair place to start from.

Go ahead and run away because all you and Burgh ever do is avoid answering/deflecting valid points about Arians' poor performance by crying that its all the Defense's fault. I laid out the facts. Disprove them, point out their weaknesses, make a good counterpoint or go home and play with your dolls.

Talk about picking your own stats to make a point; all you and Burgh ever bring up is our thousand yard receivers and RB. Big whoopty. Show me the correlation between that and success versus 3rd down and redzone efficiency (which the Steelers sucked at). Anytime something concrete comes up, you run for the hiils yelling "Defense sucks." Again, learn how to debate, which means actually responding to valid points that oppose your point of view.

BTW, seems to me that when the team goes into the second half with a big lead, that BOTH units had to play well to get us there, and if we lose a 10-20 point lead, then both units had to play poorly to get the team into that position. So what you are basically saying is that if the Steelers go into halftime up on the other team, say 14 to nothing, then the O and D did their jobs, and if the O doesnt score any more points in the second half and the D allows 14, then now its the D's fault? That is assinine. O needs to keep scoring. Look at their 3rd quarter production - major drop off.

I am not blaming everything on the O, but Arians is no genius and there is a lot better talent out there. BTW II, did you notice how the Ravens turned into an offensive machine since they hired Cam Cameron, WHO IS KNOWN AS AN OFFENSIVE GENIUS? Funny how that works...

The Ravens are not an offensive machine? When? See how great D and turnovers make an OC look like a genius? They had 17 to 20 points off of turnovers.. TURNOVERS!!! Remember those?

SteelAbility
01-11-2010, 10:14 AM
Wow... you remind me of the drug companies who do their own data (number crunching) to show their drug works.

The first Titans game.. is that the season avg point total or just the Collins avg for the first 6 losses? They switched QB's and went on a roll.. just sayin?

The Chicago game... did you take into account Cutler's INT total of 26.. and I remember having the lead in that game even with 2 FG misses.

The first Cincy game.. we were a Sweed drop from going up 27-9.. so you are correct, the O failed. Thank goodness we were smart enough to bench Sweed and find out Wallace was a gem. Adjusting is a great thing.

I'm not going to go through each game.. I watched them.. I know the O can improve...
but like we saw tonight.. if the D can't stop anyone it doesn't matter how much you score.

When you look at averages over large numbers things "come out in the wash." The larger the numbers, the more accurately things come out in the wash.

You are pointing to exception cases and missing the whole point. By actually looking at the opponents and their O/D performance, you establish a baseline for comparison instead of blanket "the O isn't getting it done" or "the D can't stop anyone" statements.

Blame belongs on both O and D. The D was handicapped by loss of Troy and A. Smith. The O received some boosts in personnel. Somehow you ignore this because "football is all about adjustments." The quality of personnel only allow your adjustments to be so effective.

Consider last night's game. AZ over GB.

feltdizz
01-11-2010, 10:24 AM
You guys can crunch all the numbers you want... You can keep handicapping our D while boosting up our O personnel. Do whatever you need to make you feel BA is an idiot and responsible for most losses and global warming. Just remember other teams lose key pieces too and no one uses that as an excuse when we beat teams. I could understand the BA hate in 2008 but not last year. Sorry to disagree with you guys on this... Keep up the great research though, maybe Tomlin or Ben will come around on this BA debacle. But... maybe Tomlin and Ben understand the D was handicapped like you said and expect the D to play up to par next year..

Slapstick
01-11-2010, 10:55 AM
In the Cincy game, you can look at the Sweed drop...or the KO return and pick 6 for a TD...

Also, I have difficulty blaming the offense for 5 losses when the Steelers led going into the 4th quarter...

SteelAbility
01-11-2010, 12:22 PM
In the Cincy game, you can look at the Sweed drop...or the KO return and pick 6 for a TD...

Also, I have difficulty blaming the offense for 5 losses when the Steelers led going into the 4th quarter...

Those were two different games. Sweed's drop was in the 1st game, which also had a pick6 thrown by Ben. The majority of the attention was on the fact that D couldn't get a stop at the end. Without EITHER of those two O mistakes, the D getting a stop at the end would have been irrelevant. Both O and D were to blame. But the O much more so. Although, to be fair the O didn't let down on Sweed's drop due to play-calling. That was just a major brain fart by Sweed. Just picked a really bad time/place for that. Oh, yeah, the O could have closed out at the end with one first down. But conservative play-calling came to the rescue of the Bengals there.

The KO return happened in the 2nd game.

feltdizz
01-11-2010, 12:46 PM
In the Cincy game, you can look at the Sweed drop...or the KO return and pick 6 for a TD...

Also, I have difficulty blaming the offense for 5 losses when the Steelers led going into the 4th quarter...

Those were two different games. Sweed's drop was in the 1st game, which also had a pick6 thrown by Ben. The majority of the attention was on the fact that D couldn't get a stop at the end. Without EITHER of those two O mistakes, the D getting a stop at the end would have been irrelevant. Both O and D were to blame. But the O much more so. Although, to be fair the O didn't let down on Sweed's drop due to play-calling. That was just a major brain fart by Sweed. Just picked a really bad time/place for that. Oh, yeah, the O could have closed out at the end with one first down. But conservative play-calling came to the rescue of the Bengals there.

The KO return happened in the 2nd game.

IF Sweed doesn't drop.. IF Ben doesn't throw the Pick 6... it doesn't change the fact we WERE winning this games before the last drive. The games were not perfect on all 3 sides of the ball in damn near every game.... but we still had the leads in these games late in the 4th.

Sweed didn't just have a brain fart either.. he has yet to catch a wide open TD pass...
I'm glad we benched him.

What if Sweed makes the TD catch, we give up a KR... still lose in the fourth and Mike Wallace never gets the chance to shine? So many what if's...

feltdizz
01-11-2010, 12:49 PM
In the Cincy game, you can look at the Sweed drop...or the KO return and pick 6 for a TD...

Also, I have difficulty blaming the offense for 5 losses when the Steelers led going into the 4th quarter...

Like I just wrote.. it's easy to go back after the game is over and you know what the final score is...

I doubt anyone points to game changing drops when we win... look at Mendenhall, he dropped a perfect TD pass... but no one is saying that "lost the game" because we won.

I think..LOL!!!

JTP53609
01-11-2010, 01:20 PM
im sorry, but in games where your saying the defense was average or above average is not very accurate....
the viking game you say they played above average, well they gave up a ton of yards with the soft coverage and were fortunate to get 2 bounces their way....
the first cincy game the bengals convert 2 fourth downs on the final drive all the way down the field to score the game winning touchdown
the bears game the defense let them go down the field and win the game with a last second FG, cutler looked like peyton manning
the chief game we give up back to back big plays in regulation and allow them to go down the field and win in OT
the ravens, 3rd and 22,...enough said,
raiders, they choke at the end
packers they are downright horrible, its a miracle they only gave up 35...

the defense was terrible, and i dont want to be the I told you so guy, but this summer I kept telling my dad and buddies that I did not like the way our defense looked towards the end of the year, i thought the titans and cardinals exposed something...

feltdizz
01-11-2010, 01:30 PM
im sorry, but in games where your saying the defense was average or above average is not very accurate....
the viking game you say they played outstanding, well they gave up a ton of yards with the soft coverage and were fortunate to get 2 bounces their way....
the first cincy game the bengals convert 2 fourth downs on the final drive all the way down the field to score the game winning touchdown
the bears game the defense let them go down the field and win the game with a last second FG, cutler looked like peyton manning
the chief game we give up back to back big plays in regulation and allow them to go down the field and win in OT
the ravens, 3rd and 22,...enough said,
raiders, they choke at the end
packers they are downright horrible, its a miracle they only gave up 35...

the defense was terrible, and i dont want to be the I told you so guy, but this summer I kept telling my dad and buddies that I did not like the way our defense looked towards the end of the year, i thought the titans and cardinals exposed something...

It's scary what is perceived as decent D these days.

I'd take a William Gay INT in preseason over a FB on our roster...LOL!!!

Joking..

kinda...

Mister Pittsburgh
01-11-2010, 01:50 PM
Nice work on the number crunching. Good effort.

Problem is, Steelers fans are accustomed to having a mediocre offense so they cut the offense slack when there is a bad performance or bad season. They are also accustomed to having a very dominant defense, so any year they are having a tough time, everything can be placed on them. Two Pro Bowlers injured, big deal, should still be dominant.

JTP53609
01-11-2010, 01:53 PM
I just look at it simple, if the Defense gives up under 300 yds of total defense than it is above average, if they give up over 400 yds than it is below average, if they give up more than 400 yds than they are bad....
lack of turnovers and bad tackling also show off bad defenses..
and allowing a team to drive down the field to win the game on a final possession makes a defense look horrible... (chicago, cincy, chiefs, ravens, raiders)..

that is what does it for me, once twice i understand losing at the end, (last year the giants and colts beat us on their last drive), but this year we lost 5 games when we had the lead and our defense was on the field for the end of the game...sure the offense was erratic at times and they looked really good but then really bad, but even when we thought our Defense looked good (minnesota), we still got our butts kicked and got 2 lucky breaks our way......

Mister Pittsburgh
01-11-2010, 02:04 PM
To be a totally healthy, intact, supposedly high powered offense...and to go into Cleveland and kick 2 FG on the worst defense in the league, to me is unexcused. I cannot and will not get over that. The defense was missing two pro bowlers most the year. What was the offense missing?

SteelAbility
01-11-2010, 02:20 PM
In the Cincy game, you can look at the Sweed drop...or the KO return and pick 6 for a TD...

Also, I have difficulty blaming the offense for 5 losses when the Steelers led going into the 4th quarter...

Those were two different games. Sweed's drop was in the 1st game, which also had a pick6 thrown by Ben. The majority of the attention was on the fact that D couldn't get a stop at the end. Without EITHER of those two O mistakes, the D getting a stop at the end would have been irrelevant. Both O and D were to blame. But the O much more so. Although, to be fair the O didn't let down on Sweed's drop due to play-calling. That was just a major brain fart by Sweed. Just picked a really bad time/place for that. Oh, yeah, the O could have closed out at the end with one first down. But conservative play-calling came to the rescue of the Bengals there.

The KO return happened in the 2nd game.

IF Sweed doesn't drop.. IF Ben doesn't throw the Pick 6... it doesn't change the fact we WERE winning this games before the last drive. The games were not perfect on all 3 sides of the ball in damn near every game.... but we still had the leads in these games late in the 4th.

Sweed didn't just have a brain fart either.. he has yet to catch a wide open TD pass...
I'm glad we benched him.

What if Sweed makes the TD catch, we give up a KR... still lose in the fourth and Mike Wallace never gets the chance to shine? So many what if's...

Ok, I had decided to give up on this debate, since both dead horses have been firmly embedded in the ground now. But are you hearing yourself? You are correct. It made no difference insofar as "having the lead." But it made all the difference insofar as "having an INSURMOUNTABLE lead" or a "two-score" or "three-score" lead. Geez. By this logic there is no distinction between a one point lead and 50 point lead. A lead is a lead is a lead, right?

You can view it two ways. The offense gave us a lead. Or you can view it as the offense left us in a position where we could lose (when it otherwise should not have been).

Furthermore, it could be argued that the points left on the table by the O and/or just given to the other team (pick6) forced the D to have to play hard at the end with the associated risk of injury affecting subsequent game performance.

Like I said, both are to blame. In that game, the O had way more blame, IMO.

SteelAbility
01-11-2010, 02:25 PM
To be a totally healthy, intact, supposedly high powered offense...and to go into Cleveland and kick 2 FG on the worst defense in the league, to me is unexcused. I cannot and will not get over that. The defense was missing two pro bowlers most the year. What was the offense missing?

Well stated. These two irrefutable points seem to just wash under the dam.

ikestops85
01-11-2010, 02:42 PM
First of all kudos to steelnavy for putting the data together. I think we all know it's not the end all, be all of the discussion but it is a good starting point. Here are a few of my observations on the subject.

1) The offense was inconsistent
2) The defense was inconsistent
3) The offense struggled in the red zone
4) The defense couldn't stop Sister Mary's of the Poor in crunch time
5) The defense couldn't get many 3 and outs so the offense always had to drive the length of the field to score a TD
6) The kick coverage team couldn't tackle anybody so the opposing offense always had a short field to drive for a TD.

I don't know what plays Arians called so it's real hard to evaluate him as a coordinator. The instance that makes me doubt Arians ability is the Cleveland game where we threw so many passes in a game where we should have been running. That game shows me he has a hard time adapting to different situations.

I don't know the defensive calls either so for that reason I can't evaluate LeBeau but here is something that bothers me about some of his calls.

In the Miami game the Dolphins had a 3rd and 3. When they line up they have a receiver wide to the left and a slot guy to the left. Ike is lined up over the receiver 10 freakin yards back and NOBODY within camera shot is lined up over the slot guy.

At the snap the receiver runs deep down the sideline and Ike goes with him. The slot guy runs a 5 yard out and is wide open (Harrison runs to that area after the snap but isn't even close). Luckily Pat White short arms it so it is incomplete and 2 seconds later Carter (I think) comes running into the picture shaking his fist and clapping like he did something to break up the play.

So my question is why are we running a defensive set that most NFL QBs will get a 1st down against almost all the time? This same type of situation seemed to have been repeated many times throughout the year.

I think Arians is the coordinator most under fire because he doesn't have the track record that LeBeau has. Coordinators are in a chess match with the opposition and sometimes they guess right and sometimes they don't. LeBeau has been much more successful than most but Arians has never been known to put together a high octane offense.

grotonsteel
01-11-2010, 02:58 PM
After reading how if the “haters” want BA fired, then they should also demand Lebeau’s head because the defense played worse this year, I decided to do some simple stat crunching in order to compare apples to apples and see who the good, bad and ugly really was.

I looked at offensive and defensive production in terms of points scored versus points allowed since that ultimately decides the game. I also did the same thing with the average “points for” and “points against” for each Steeler opponent. I removed all points from interception returns, fumble returns and special team scores so that I could compare just offensive and defensive production.

This is what I found:

The first interesting thing I noted is that when taking into consideration only offensive scoring, the Steelers win/loss record is 10-5-1 for the season.

In comparing how the Steelers O and D performed against the average O and D performance of each opponent, the units fell out as follows over the sixteen game season:

Performance......... Off........ Def
Well Above Avg.... 2........... 5
Above Avg........... 5........... 4
Average.............. 4........... 3
Below Avg........... 2........... 2
Well Below Avg..... 3........... 2


Note- Metrics used: Average is within two points of opponent’s mean points for or against, above or below average is within 10 points of opponent avg, and well above or well below average is greater than ten points from the mean.

Now lets look at each game comparing offensive and defensive production only

Titans game (W 13-10)
PIT O 13.... Avg points scored against Titans 24.7
PIT D 10.... Avg points scored by Titans 20.4

Steelers defense saves the day versus woeful effort by the offense. Win because of the Defense.

Chicago game (L 17-14)
PIT O 14.... Avg points scored against Bears 23.5
PIT D 17.... Avg points scored by Bears 18.9

The D holds their own but Steelers lose due to well below avg performance by the O. Loss hangs on Offense.

Cincinnati game (L 23-20)
PIT O 20.... Avg points scored against Bungals 17.4
PIT D 17.... Avg points scored by Bungals 17.4

Both the D and O held their own, but the O gave up an INT for a TD to lose the game. Loss hangs on Offense.

San Diego game (W 38-28)
PIT O 38.... Avg points scored against SD 19.1
PIT D 21.... Avg points scored by SD 26.1

Both squads performed well (the O really kicked butt). Both sides earn the win.

Detroit game (W 28-20)
PIT O 28.... Avg points scored against Detroit 29.0
PIT D 13.... Avg points scored by Detroit 14.9

Both squads played about average but the O gave up 7 on an INT for a TD to make the game closer than it should have been. Both sides earn the win.

Cleveland game (W 27-14)
PIT O 27.... Avg points scored against Browns 21.8
PIT D 07.... Avg points scored by Browns 15.3

Both squads performed above average and both earn the win.

Minnesota (W 27-17)
PIT O 13.... Avg points scored against Vikings 17.7
PIT D 14.... Avg points scored by Vikings 28.1

D played well above average and O played below average. The D saved the day with two fumble recoveries for TDs. Win because of the Defense.

Denver (W 28-10)
PIT O 21.... Avg points scored against Broncs 18.1
PIT D 03.... Avg points scored by Broncs 18.8

D played well above average and the O played above average. Both earned the win.

Cincinnati (L 18-12)
PIT O 12.... Avg points scored against Bungles 17.4
PIT D 12.... Avg points scored by Bungles 17.4

O performed below average and D performed above average. The Offense and Special Teams earned this loss.

Kansas City (L24-27)
PIT O 24.... Avg points scored against KC 24.3
PIT D 20.... Avg points scored by KC 16.9

The O played average and the D played below average. Loss is pinned on the D and ST.

Baltimore (L 20-17)
PIT O 17.... Avg points scored against Ravens 15.4
PIT D 20.... Avg points scored by Ravens 30.3

While the D delivered a slightly above average performance, the average play of the O costs the game.

Raiders (L 27-24)
PIT O 24.... Avg points scored against Raiders 23.1
PIT D 27.... Avg points scored by Raiders 12.3

The O played average and the D played well below average. D responsible for the loss.

Cleveland (L 13-6)
PIT O 06.... Avg points scored against Browns 21.8
PIT D 13.... Avg points scored by Browns 15.3

The D performed above average and the O performed well below average. The O is responsible for this embarrassing loss.

Green Bay (W37-36)
PIT O 37.... Avg points scored against GB 17.3
PIT D 36.... Avg points scored by GB 26.9

O performed well above average and the D played well below average. O saved the day.

Baltimore (W23-20)
PIT O 23.... Avg points scored against Ravens 15.4
PIT D 20.... Avg points scored by Ravens 30.3

Both O and D performed above average. That and a little luck wins this one.

Miami (W 30-24)
PIT O 30.... Avg points scored against Dolphins 23.3
PIT D 24.... Avg points scored by Dolphins 20.9

O delivers above average performance and D is below average. O earns the win.


Looking at the Steeler’s nine wins, the D and O earned five wins as a team, and each earned two wins despite the poor performance of the other.

Looking at the Steelers seven losses, the D was directly responsible for two of them and the O was responsible for five.

In general, the D performed better than the O, and did it minus two star defensive players (Polamalu and Smith). If the Offense lost two of their brightest stars for the season, how good would have they been then?

Finally, I looked at scoring per Qtr:

...............1st Qtr...2nd Qtr...3rd Qtr...4th Qtr... OT
Offense......81.........119........61.........83.. ........3 347
Defense.....39..........61.........47.........121. ........6 274


The D was obviously poor in the 4th qtr. Other than that, they performed well.

The D has its worst year in awhile and it still had better stats than the O.

Understanding that the game is a lot more complicated than what is presented, the stats do provide a way to compare results of the two units.

Nice Stats....

But i have just one question for you...
Do you think Steelers win a game this season if Big Ben throws for 34 yards and 1 INT???

Steelers D is incapable of getting turnovers. DBs outright suck. Ike taylor at best is No.2 CB. Steelers D play 10 yard cushion and prevent D.

Aaron Smith will be a year older next season. I won't be surprised if he retires.

Only player who can make things happen is Troy.

Get ready to see some mediocre Steelers D next season. Just hope that Offense clicks in 2010 else next year could be worse.

Steelers in 2010 can go as far as Big Ben takes them.

feltdizz
01-11-2010, 03:23 PM
Look at Aaron Rodgers yesterday.. dude played out of his mind and still couldn't win because his D couldn't stop any pass plays. I think GB runs a 3-4 and although their DB's can catch we see without pressure they are toast.

I don't think it mattered how many points we scored last season, we weren't winning games if we didn't have the ball last... and expecting our O to score mega points AND grind out games is too much to ask for.

I bet Whiz wanted to grind out the GB game but looking at his DB's I bet he figured the risk of a short gain and FG try vs. his D was too much so he went pass happy too.

BURGH86STEEL
01-11-2010, 03:24 PM
The TEAMS fault.

feltdizz
01-11-2010, 03:30 PM
To be a totally healthy, intact, supposedly high powered offense...and to go into Cleveland and kick 2 FG on the worst defense in the league, to me is unexcused. I cannot and will not get over that. The defense was missing two pro bowlers most the year. What was the offense missing?

You guys keep bringing up the Browns game.. how about the Offense had no confidence in the D due to the last 4 crushing defeats and said screw the D, lets stay warm?

I'm being sarcastic but seriously... if you can't get over the 5th straight loss on a Thursday night but you can get over Cutler, Cassell, Gradowski, Palmer and Flacco looking like freaking Joe Montana that is on you.

The same people said the Eagles game was the last straw.. it's one game out of 16. BA stunk... so what.. I have seen Peyton, Brady, Romo and McNabb's offensive get crushed too in one game.

feltdizz
01-11-2010, 03:40 PM
Ok, I had decided to give up on this debate, since both dead horses have been firmly embedded in the ground now. But are you hearing yourself? You are correct. It made no difference insofar as "having the lead." But it made all the difference insofar as "having an INSURMOUNTABLE lead" or a "two-score" or "three-score" lead. Geez. By this logic there is no distinction between a one point lead and 50 point lead. A lead is a lead is a lead, right?

You can view it two ways. The offense gave us a lead. Or you can view it as the offense left us in a position where we could lose (when it otherwise should not have been).

Furthermore, it could be argued that the points left on the table by the O and/or just given to the other team (pick6) forced the D to have to play hard at the end with the associated risk of injury affecting subsequent game performance.

Like I said, both are to blame. In that game, the O had way more blame, IMO.

When the Offense doesn't score more points then the other team then they have left you in a position to lose...

I understand what you are saying but you are really giving the D a long leash. We all recognize the D was below average due to Troy and Smith's absence... but we weren't asking for amazing Troy defense either, just your basic fundamental "closer then 10 yards defense" we are used to seeing 2nd stringers make.

you make it sound like the D is short bus, special needs, from a third world country weak.... I wish they played hard. Look at the Miami ending, they can play tough football when they focus and stop yapping at the other team.

steelnavy
01-11-2010, 09:49 PM
im sorry, but in games where your saying the defense was average or above average is not very accurate....
the viking game you say they played above average, well they gave up a ton of yards with the soft coverage and were fortunate to get 2 bounces their way....
the first cincy game the bengals convert 2 fourth downs on the final drive all the way down the field to score the game winning touchdown
the bears game the defense let them go down the field and win the game with a last second FG, cutler looked like peyton manning
the chief game we give up back to back big plays in regulation and allow them to go down the field and win in OT
the ravens, 3rd and 22,...enough said,
raiders, they choke at the end
packers they are downright horrible, its a miracle they only gave up 35...

the defense was terrible, and i dont want to be the I told you so guy, but this summer I kept telling my dad and buddies that I did not like the way our defense looked towards the end of the year, i thought the titans and cardinals exposed something...

When you describe the D as terrible, can you please quantify? And if you had to rank their performance, where would they fall out against the other 31 teams? Given, they are terrible compared to last year WHEN THEY ROCKED, but how many teams do you think would LOVE to have their Ds perform as good as ours? (probably a lot).

They didnt suck; they just weren't as good as usual.

Herewegosteelers!
01-11-2010, 10:33 PM
To be a totally healthy, intact, supposedly high powered offense...and to go into Cleveland and kick 2 FG on the worst defense in the league, to me is unexcused. I cannot and will not get over that. The defense was missing two pro bowlers most the year. What was the offense missing?

Well stated. These two irrefutable points seem to just wash under the dam.


The D losing Troy and Aaron Smith is just like the offense losing Ben and someone like Starks (who would actually be tough to replace)

papillon
01-11-2010, 11:01 PM
The TEAMS fault.

:Bow :Bow :Bow :Bow

But, everyone has an axe to grind with Arians or Lebeau, so, one person ahs to take the heat. This version of the Pittsburgh Steelers was inconsistent all year. If the defense played well, the offense sucked and vice versa. The special teams even had moments when they were good.

I do have to admit I enjoyed the way they finished the year with a three game win streak even knowing that they probably weren't going to make the playoffs.

After watching the games yesterday the Steelers would have done well in any of matchups with any of those teams. There were flaws all around. Brady was bad and the defense for NE gave up big plays on the ground.

Flacco stunk plain and simple.

Carson Palmer is only a shell of what he was a few years ago and that wasn't great by any stretch.

The Jets played well, but the Bengals didn't really mount much of a challenge. The Jets would have been the toughest opponent yesterday and I believe the Steelers could beat them.

Pappy

feltdizz
01-12-2010, 12:35 AM
im sorry, but in games where your saying the defense was average or above average is not very accurate....
the viking game you say they played above average, well they gave up a ton of yards with the soft coverage and were fortunate to get 2 bounces their way....
the first cincy game the bengals convert 2 fourth downs on the final drive all the way down the field to score the game winning touchdown
the bears game the defense let them go down the field and win the game with a last second FG, cutler looked like peyton manning
the chief game we give up back to back big plays in regulation and allow them to go down the field and win in OT
the ravens, 3rd and 22,...enough said,
raiders, they choke at the end
packers they are downright horrible, its a miracle they only gave up 35...

the defense was terrible, and i dont want to be the I told you so guy, but this summer I kept telling my dad and buddies that I did not like the way our defense looked towards the end of the year, i thought the titans and cardinals exposed something...

When you describe the D as terrible, can you please quantify? And if you had to rank their performance, where would they fall out against the other 31 teams? Given, they are terrible compared to last year WHEN THEY ROCKED, but how many teams do you think would LOVE to have their Ds perform as good as ours? (probably a lot).

They didnt suck; they just weren't as good as usual.
Our D stank when we needed them in the 4th. I don't know why you need numbers to support this. I'm getting the feeling you don't watch the games... our O stank at times thins year too.. and special teams stank a ton.

When you look back over the years our D this year had to be the worst Steeler D in the last 20 years. I don't need stats for that either. No plays when we needed them and the pass D was turrible. I can think of about 30 teams who's D I would take over ours in the 4th quarter. Seriously.. They were that bad.

SteelTorch
01-12-2010, 12:43 AM
I noticed that the most common tactic BA defenders use is to bring up something else - defense, special teams, etc. They can't defend BA based on his accomplishments alone, except for yards, which are a flashy bling bling stat, nothing more. They don't mean much in the outcome of the game.

feltdizz
01-12-2010, 03:04 AM
I noticed that the most common tactic BA defenders use is to bring up something else - defense, special teams, etc. They can't defend BA based on his accomplishments alone, except for yards, which are a flashy bling bling stat, nothing more. They don't mean much in the outcome of the game.

When we bring up the implosion of Sweed and the emergence of Wallace people wave it off.... BA could have stuck with Sweed.

If we bring up the 2008 SB win and countless injuries on offense and a patchwork young OL they get the "in spite of BA" bull....

When we bring up the great game BA called that put Dixon in the endzone vs. the Rats on their field we get excuses...

When we bring up all the leads in the fourth quarter we hear about how they weren't large enough leads...

It's kinda weird to ask people not to bring up stats when discussing an OC... what should we bring up? His looks? We have won 34 games, including a last second SB victory on a TD pass...all in 3 years.

:wft do you want to hear? Oh.. I know.. how bad he is and how we would have won 3 SB's with any other OC... like Dallas' OC or NO's OC.. or SD's OC... how about the Texans? Please enlighten us on who will take Ben to the promise land.

You guys are like children in a car... are we there yet.. are we there yet! :wft
Stop trying to get everyone on the BA sucks bandwagon. Either accept it or find a new team or OC to slobber over until he leaves. Preferably one of the greats who can't win a SB yet is seen as a genius for his....stats? hmmm.. :roll:

It's one thing to b!tch.. but to b!tch and moan?

BURGH86STEEL
01-12-2010, 08:41 AM
The TEAMS fault.

:Bow :Bow :Bow :Bow

But, everyone has an axe to grind with Arians or Lebeau, so, one person ahs to take the heat. This version of the Pittsburgh Steelers was inconsistent all year. If the defense played well, the offense sucked and vice versa. The special teams even had moments when they were good.

I do have to admit I enjoyed the way they finished the year with a three game win streak even knowing that they probably weren't going to make the playoffs.

After watching the games yesterday the Steelers would have done well in any of matchups with any of those teams. There were flaws all around. Brady was bad and the defense for NE gave up big plays on the ground.

Flacco stunk plain and simple.

Carson Palmer is only a shell of what he was a few years ago and that wasn't great by any stretch.

The Jets played well, but the Bengals didn't really mount much of a challenge. The Jets would have been the toughest opponent yesterday and I believe the Steelers could beat them.

Pappy

I agree. Teams that have QB's like Ben, Manning, ect and a defense that can play like the Jets will be in most games.

steelblood
01-12-2010, 09:19 AM
It is very important to assign blame to only one unit because....?

SteelTorch
01-12-2010, 01:15 PM
When we bring up the implosion of Sweed and the emergence of Wallace people wave it off.... BA could have stuck with Sweed.

If we bring up the 2008 SB win and countless injuries on offense and a patchwork young OL they get the "in spite of BA" bull....

When we bring up the great game BA called that put Dixon in the endzone vs. the Rats on their field we get excuses...

When we bring up all the leads in the fourth quarter we hear about how they weren't large enough leads...

It's kinda weird to ask people not to bring up stats when discussing an OC... what should we bring up? His looks? We have won 34 games, including a last second SB victory on a TD pass...all in 3 years.

:wft do you want to hear? Oh.. I know.. how bad he is and how we would have won 3 SB's with any other OC... like Dallas' OC or NO's OC.. or SD's OC... how about the Texans? Please enlighten us on who will take Ben to the promise land.

You guys are like children in a car... are we there yet.. are we there yet! :wft
Stop trying to get everyone on the BA sucks bandwagon. Either accept it or find a new team or OC to slobber over until he leaves. Preferably one of the greats who can't win a SB yet is seen as a genius for his....stats? hmmm.. :roll:

It's one thing to b!tch.. but to b!tch and moan?
You make it sound like all those wins and the Lombardi trophy were because of BA. No. The only reason we had those wins for the longest time was because we had the defense to bail us out, until last season, as well as Big Ben's knack for big plays. Even in 2009, the offense still had significant problems. Oh, Ben passed for 4,000 yards. Yay. :roll:

Oh sure, Arians has called some good games. But even a broken clock is right twice a day. Having a few good games called doesn't make up for the fact that he outright stinks most of the time. Need I remind you Arians couldn't put up more than 6 points against Cleveland this season. CLEVELAND. And what about his loss to Jacksonville that bumped us out of the 07 playoffs? Or his Pathetic loss to Philadelphia? Or how we only mustered 17 points in regulation against KC? Where are your excuses for that? Where is your Arians praise for that?

Regardless of what you may think, BA's offense has consistently underperformed in every year he's been here, and cost us several games. Ben was already an effective QB before Arians' arrival. He doesn't owe any of his success to Arians. The only reason Arians isn't out of a job now is because the players themselves have made him look good at times.

And honestly, screw you. I'll criticize the team or Arians if I want to. Don't tell me I should root for a different team just because I'm not satisfied with your beloved OC. Kindly go screw yourself. :moon

feltdizz
01-12-2010, 01:28 PM
I'm not a BA fan... I'm a Steeler fan. I just think it makes zero sense to keep complaining about BA...
Here's a thought on the Ben was already great theory... Ben likes BA. Holmes said he likes BA. Tomlin retained him. I find it funny how everyone who wants BA to hit the road talks about Ben like he is stuck with BA.

Go ahead and bang your head against the BA wall... even the guy who said he was going to count the days to BA getting on with his lifes work gave up 6 days in.

BURGH86STEEL
01-12-2010, 03:30 PM
It is very important to assign blame to only one unit because....?

fail to realize it is a team sport.

feltdizz
01-12-2010, 04:03 PM
When we bring up the implosion of Sweed and the emergence of Wallace people wave it off.... BA could have stuck with Sweed.

If we bring up the 2008 SB win and countless injuries on offense and a patchwork young OL they get the "in spite of BA" bull....

When we bring up the great game BA called that put Dixon in the endzone vs. the Rats on their field we get excuses...

When we bring up all the leads in the fourth quarter we hear about how they weren't large enough leads...

It's kinda weird to ask people not to bring up stats when discussing an OC... what should we bring up? His looks? We have won 34 games, including a last second SB victory on a TD pass...all in 3 years.

:wft do you want to hear? Oh.. I know.. how bad he is and how we would have won 3 SB's with any other OC... like Dallas' OC or NO's OC.. or SD's OC... how about the Texans? Please enlighten us on who will take Ben to the promise land.

You guys are like children in a car... are we there yet.. are we there yet! :wft
Stop trying to get everyone on the BA sucks bandwagon. Either accept it or find a new team or OC to slobber over until he leaves. Preferably one of the greats who can't win a SB yet is seen as a genius for his....stats? hmmm.. :roll:

It's one thing to b!tch.. but to b!tch and moan?
You make it sound like all those wins and the Lombardi trophy were because of BA. No. The only reason we had those wins for the longest time was because we had the defense to bail us out, until last season, as well as Big Ben's knack for big plays. Even in 2009, the offense still had significant problems. Oh, Ben passed for 4,000 yards. Yay. :roll:

Oh sure, Arians has called some good games. But even a broken clock is right twice a day. Having a few good games called doesn't make up for the fact that he outright stinks most of the time. Need I remind you Arians couldn't put up more than 6 points against Cleveland this season. CLEVELAND. And what about his loss to Jacksonville that bumped us out of the 07 playoffs? Or his Pathetic loss to Philadelphia? Or how we only mustered 17 points in regulation against KC? Where are your excuses for that? Where is your Arians praise for that?

Regardless of what you may think, BA's offense has consistently underperformed in every year he's been here, and cost us several games. Ben was already an effective QB before Arians' arrival. He doesn't owe any of his success to Arians. The only reason Arians isn't out of a job now is because the players themselves have made him look good at times.

And honestly, screw you. I'll criticize the team or Arians if I want to. Don't tell me I should root for a different team just because I'm not satisfied with your beloved OC. Kindly go screw yourself. :moon
You make it sound like BA wasn't responsible for any success, just failure.
Are you really going to bring up the Jacksonville game? We marched right down the field with scripted plays and the ST's gave it right back. Ben had 3 first half INT's... Najeh Davenport was our RB and we still had the lead late. Guess who missed another easy tackle late in the game? Tyrone freaking Carter!

Not blaming Carter for the loss but I find it hilarious you would bring up Tomlins first year and BA's first year as proof of failure. That season was successful in the grand scheme of things. Most fans understand playoff wins are hard to come by although Steeler fans think it is written in scripture.

You also do a good job of pointing out 2 terrible losses in 3 years... clearly it is a sign all is lost. Like you said.. even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Steeler Mafia
01-12-2010, 04:56 PM
WHO CARES!

It doesn't matter at this point who was to blame or whose fault it is. What's done is done. All that we should be talking about at this point is what areas does this team need to address in the offseason and move on.

feltdizz
01-12-2010, 05:40 PM
WHO CARES!

It doesn't matter at this point who was to blame or whose fault it is. What's done is done. All that we should be talking about at this point is what areas does this team need to address in the offseason and move on.


OC fool!!!

Steeler Mafia
01-12-2010, 05:56 PM
WHO CARES!

It doesn't matter at this point who was to blame or whose fault it is. What's done is done. All that we should be talking about at this point is what areas does this team need to address in the offseason and move on.


OC fool!!!

:lol: Apparently that isn't happening (as much as I would like it to)

Moving on!

SteelTorch
01-12-2010, 09:26 PM
WHO CARES!

It doesn't matter at this point who was to blame or whose fault it is. What's done is done. All that we should be talking about at this point is what areas does this team need to address in the offseason and move on.
I'm not saying Arians alone is to blame. I'm just pointing out to the BA apologists the futility of their ways. :P

As for the second part, that's technically what we're doing. :moon