PDA

View Full Version : Ben not a Red Zone QB



NorthCoast
01-05-2010, 12:25 AM
Taking a look at Ben's career QB rating stats for 1st-4th down and goal he looks to be wildly inconsistent:

* Passing
*Situation G * QBRat Comp Att Pct Yds Y/G Y/A TD Int
*1st & Goal 32* 63.4 13 27 48.1 78 N/A 2.9 11 2
*2nd & Goal 43* 106.1 33 53 62.3 141 N/A 2.7 23 0
*3rd & Goal 39* 77.1 21 40 52.5 106 N/A 2.7 14 2
*4th & Goal 5 * 109.7 2 3 66.7 2 N/A 0.7 2 0

With a compressed field, the QB must read pre-snap and make quick decisions with the ball. This obviously is not Ben's style. We desperately need to develop the run game in this area of the field.

stlrz d
01-05-2010, 12:33 AM
You spend way too much time looking at numbers man. You're trying to quantify things that just aren't that simply quantified.

Captain Lemming
01-05-2010, 01:47 AM
You spend way too much time looking at numbers man. You're trying to quantify things that just aren't that simply quantified.

If you are honest, you gotta admit that at least 42.3 percent of what he said makes sense.

Scarletfire1970
01-05-2010, 06:41 AM
It is always very difficult to score in the red zone. Particularly when you don't have a strong running game.

msp26505
01-05-2010, 09:05 AM
I don't think it's too much to ask to expect your $100 million QB to identify problems within his game and attempt to make improvements in that area.

Everybody in every profession does it.

If Ben (and our OC, BA or otherwise) can improve this area, this offense can be truly scary with the talent already in place.

stlrz d
01-05-2010, 09:57 AM
I don't think it's too much to ask to expect your $100 million QB to identify problems within his game and attempt to make improvements in that area.

Everybody in every profession does it.

If Ben (and our OC, BA or otherwise) can improve this area, this offense can be truly scary with the talent already in place.

So what you're telling me is that those numbers are indicative of Ben and only Ben?

Dropped passes don't factor in? Passes thrown away? Tipped passes? WR is open but an O lineman misses a block, disrupting the play? Etc, etc, etc?

Ben isn't Bugs Bunny...he's not throwing it to himself.

That's why you can't just throw crap like that out there and say, "Ben is not a RZ QB". It's a team game.

steelblood
01-05-2010, 11:09 AM
I don't think it's too much to ask to expect your $100 million QB to identify problems within his game and attempt to make improvements in that area.

Everybody in every profession does it.

If Ben (and our OC, BA or otherwise) can improve this area, this offense can be truly scary with the talent already in place.

So what you're telling me is that those numbers are indicative of Ben and only Ben?

Dropped passes don't factor in? Passes thrown away? Tipped passes? WR is open but an O lineman misses a block, disrupting the play? Etc, etc, etc?

Ben isn't Bugs Bunny...he's not throwing it to himself.

That's why you can't just throw crap like that out there and say, "Ben is not a RZ QB". It's a team game.

The entire offense needs to improve in the red zone. With the way they are capable of moving the ball, they should be scoring more points. Ben takes to many sacks, there is no real fullback or effective short yardage package, the playcalling is poor, dropped passes, etc. Red zone offense should be priority #1 in the offseason. All of these need to improve and perhaps we need to add a player or two that will make us a better running team.

feltdizz
01-05-2010, 11:23 AM
I don't think it's too much to ask to expect your $100 million QB to identify problems within his game and attempt to make improvements in that area.

Everybody in every profession does it.

If Ben (and our OC, BA or otherwise) can improve this area, this offense can be truly scary with the talent already in place.

So what you're telling me is that those numbers are indicative of Ben and only Ben?

Dropped passes don't factor in? Passes thrown away? Tipped passes? WR is open but an O lineman misses a block, disrupting the play? Etc, etc, etc?

Ben isn't Bugs Bunny...he's not throwing it to himself.

That's why you can't just throw crap like that out there and say, "Ben is not a RZ QB". It's a team game.

The entire offense needs to improve in the red zone. With the way they are capable of moving the ball, they should be scoring more points. Ben takes to many sacks, there is no real fullback or effective short yardage package, the playcalling is poor, dropped passes, etc. Red zone offense should be priority #1 in the offseason. All of these need to improve and perhaps we need to add a player or two that will make us a better running team.

Ben does take too many sacks in the red zone...
but most of our problems in the red zone come down to execution and penalties..


but we all know the red zone is not why we lost games this year.

steelblood
01-05-2010, 11:30 AM
I don't think it's too much to ask to expect your $100 million QB to identify problems within his game and attempt to make improvements in that area.

Everybody in every profession does it.

If Ben (and our OC, BA or otherwise) can improve this area, this offense can be truly scary with the talent already in place.

So what you're telling me is that those numbers are indicative of Ben and only Ben?

Dropped passes don't factor in? Passes thrown away? Tipped passes? WR is open but an O lineman misses a block, disrupting the play? Etc, etc, etc?

Ben isn't Bugs Bunny...he's not throwing it to himself.

That's why you can't just throw crap like that out there and say, "Ben is not a RZ QB". It's a team game.

The entire offense needs to improve in the red zone. With the way they are capable of moving the ball, they should be scoring more points. Ben takes to many sacks, there is no real fullback or effective short yardage package, the playcalling is poor, dropped passes, etc. Red zone offense should be priority #1 in the offseason. All of these need to improve and perhaps we need to add a player or two that will make us a better running team.

Ben does take too many sacks in the red zone...
but most of our problems in the red zone come down to execution and penalties..


but we all know the red zone is not why we lost games this year.

Really? I can think of 3 games that we could have won with better red zone efficiency.

It may not be the main reason. But, it is certainly one of them.

Steeler Mafia
01-05-2010, 11:31 AM
I don't think it's too much to ask to expect your $100 million QB to identify problems within his game and attempt to make improvements in that area.

Everybody in every profession does it.

If Ben (and our OC, BA or otherwise) can improve this area, this offense can be truly scary with the talent already in place.

So what you're telling me is that those numbers are indicative of Ben and only Ben?

Dropped passes don't factor in? Passes thrown away? Tipped passes? WR is open but an O lineman misses a block, disrupting the play? Etc, etc, etc?

Ben isn't Bugs Bunny...he's not throwing it to himself.

That's why you can't just throw crap like that out there and say, "Ben is not a RZ QB". It's a team game.

The entire offense needs to improve in the red zone. With the way they are capable of moving the ball, they should be scoring more points. Ben takes to many sacks, there is no real fullback or effective short yardage package, the playcalling is poor, dropped passes, etc. Red zone offense should be priority #1 in the offseason. All of these need to improve and perhaps we need to add a player or two that will make us a better running team.

Ben does take too many sacks in the red zone...
but most of our problems in the red zone come down to execution and penalties..


but we all know the red zone is not why we lost games this year.

Not so fast my friend. Most of our problems in the red zone we due to poor playcalling and no run game, and Arians trademark. (Anyone remember the empty sets) Yes, we lost games do to pathetic ST play and the defense unable to hold a 3 or 10 point lead. However, there were way too many points left on the field this year. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense. It doesn't help much when that offense sputters when it gets inside the 20s.

RuthlessBurgher
01-05-2010, 11:33 AM
Ben has thrown a few nice passes in the Red Zone where only his receiver could get them. :wink:

http://freddiebell.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/santonio_holmes2009-winning-td-super-bowl-43-med-wide.jpg

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/getty/2009/09000d5d815216e6_gallery_600.jpg

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=media%2Fapphoto%2F5f041c65-2ff8-4ea1-8c59-23ed3932c067.jpg&w=512&h=398

Steeler Mafia
01-05-2010, 11:40 AM
Ben has thrown a few nice passes in the Red Zone where only his receiver could get them. :wink:

http://freddiebell.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/santonio_holmes2009-winning-td-super-bowl-43-med-wide.jpg

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/getty/2009/09000d5d815216e6_gallery_600.jpg

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=media%2Fapphoto%2F5f041c65-2ff8-4ea1-8c59-23ed3932c067.jpg&w=512&h=398

The pass to Wallace was actually outside of the red zone by only a few yards I believe. Someone will have to check me on that, but I thought it was something like a 27 yard pass. I will give him the one to Heath last Sunday. however, even if the one to Wallace was inside the redzone, that makes what, two successful attempts out of how many this year? Not enough!

SteelAbility
01-05-2010, 11:44 AM
Wrong. BA is not a good RZ OC. :stirpot :moon

Jooser
01-05-2010, 11:50 AM
I don't think it's too much to ask to expect your $100 million QB to identify problems within his game and attempt to make improvements in that area.

Everybody in every profession does it.

If Ben (and our OC, BA or otherwise) can improve this area, this offense can be truly scary with the talent already in place.

So what you're telling me is that those numbers are indicative of Ben and only Ben?

Dropped passes don't factor in? Passes thrown away? Tipped passes? WR is open but an O lineman misses a block, disrupting the play? Etc, etc, etc?

Ben isn't Bugs Bunny...he's not throwing it to himself.

That's why you can't just throw crap like that out there and say, "Ben is not a RZ QB". It's a team game.

......or, how about we generally (about 90% of the time), let RM run the ball right into the freaking teeth of the defense. Mendy has demonstrated that he can outrun and break tackles, but WTF is this always up the gut crap! It's like BA wants the run game to fail so that he can call a pass play! :HeadBanger Dammit man!

feltdizz
01-05-2010, 11:53 AM
[quote=msp26505]I don't think it's too much to ask to expect your $100 million QB to identify problems within his game and attempt to make improvements in that area.

Everybody in every profession does it.

If Ben (and our OC, BA or otherwise) can improve this area, this offense can be truly scary with the talent already in place.

So what you're telling me is that those numbers are indicative of Ben and only Ben?

Dropped passes don't factor in? Passes thrown away? Tipped passes? WR is open but an O lineman misses a block, disrupting the play? Etc, etc, etc?

Ben isn't Bugs Bunny...he's not throwing it to himself.

That's why you can't just throw crap like that out there and say, "Ben is not a RZ QB". It's a team game.

The entire offense needs to improve in the red zone. With the way they are capable of moving the ball, they should be scoring more points. Ben takes to many sacks, there is no real fullback or effective short yardage package, the playcalling is poor, dropped passes, etc. Red zone offense should be priority #1 in the offseason. All of these need to improve and perhaps we need to add a player or two that will make us a better running team.

Ben does take too many sacks in the red zone...
but most of our problems in the red zone come down to execution and penalties..


but we all know the red zone is not why we lost games this year.

Not so fast my friend. Most of our problems in the red zone we due to poor playcalling and no run game, and Arians trademark. (Anyone remember the empty sets) Yes, we lost games do to pathetic ST play and the defense unable to hold a 3 or 10 point lead. However, there were way too many points left on the field this year. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense. It doesn't help much when that offense sputters when it gets inside the 20s.[/quote:7cha44ge]

sorry buddy but our O could never score enough points to protect a lead with the D this year. you could change the 3 or 10 to 14 or 21...once the fourth quarter started all bets were off.

We were up 17 points against Miami and people still say our O failed because they went 3 and out on one series and Miami put up 14 in 3 minutes. Regardless.. it's 17 freaking points.. luckily they got the TO's we seldom saw this year.


now take that

Steeler Mafia
01-05-2010, 12:15 PM
[quote="stlrz d":drcdt1h2]
So what you're telling me is that those numbers are indicative of Ben and only Ben?

Dropped passes don't factor in? Passes thrown away? Tipped passes? WR is open but an O lineman misses a block, disrupting the play? Etc, etc, etc?

Ben isn't Bugs Bunny...he's not throwing it to himself.

That's why you can't just throw crap like that out there and say, "Ben is not a RZ QB". It's a team game.

The entire offense needs to improve in the red zone. With the way they are capable of moving the ball, they should be scoring more points. Ben takes to many sacks, there is no real fullback or effective short yardage package, the playcalling is poor, dropped passes, etc. Red zone offense should be priority #1 in the offseason. All of these need to improve and perhaps we need to add a player or two that will make us a better running team.

Ben does take too many sacks in the red zone...
but most of our problems in the red zone come down to execution and penalties..


but we all know the red zone is not why we lost games this year.

Not so fast my friend. Most of our problems in the red zone we due to poor playcalling and no run game, and Arians trademark. (Anyone remember the empty sets) Yes, we lost games do to pathetic ST play and the defense unable to hold a 3 or 10 point lead. However, there were way too many points left on the field this year. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense. It doesn't help much when that offense sputters when it gets inside the 20s.

sorry buddy but our O could never score enough points to protect a lead with the D this year. you could change the 3 or 10 to 14 or 21...once the fourth quarter started all bets were off.

We were up 17 points against Miami and people still say our O failed because they went 3 and out on one series and Miami put up 14 in 3 minutes. Regardless.. it's 17 freaking points.. luckily they got the TO's we seldom saw this year.


now take that[/quote:drcdt1h2]

OK...I will. The Miami game is a bad example becase they are a descent team. Not a great team, but a descent one. However, how many points did we leave on the field in the Oakland game, or the Cleveland Game, or the KC game. Are you telling me that these bottom feeder teams could have powered their way back into the game and recover a 21+ point deficit? I don't think so. Now granted, our D made Miami's 3rd string QB look like the second coming of Dan Marino with some of those passes. But you have to admit, in every game we played, the offense would start out looking dominant and would then go dormant like Bermuda Grass in the winter time. The Defense.....they were much more like a tall fescue. :)

feltdizz
01-05-2010, 12:49 PM
sorry buddy but our O could never score enough points to protect a lead with the D this year. you could change the 3 or 10 to 14 or 21...once the fourth quarter started all bets were off.

We were up 17 points against Miami and people still say our O failed because they went 3 and out on one series and Miami put up 14 in 3 minutes. Regardless.. it's 17 freaking points.. luckily they got the TO's we seldom saw this year.


now take that

OK...I will. The Miami game is a bad example becase they are a descent team. Not a great team, but a descent one. However, how many points did we leave on the field in the Oakland game, or the Cleveland Game, or the KC game. Are you telling me that these bottom feeder teams could have powered their way back into the game and recover a 21+ point deficit? I don't think so. Now granted, our D made Miami's 3rd string QB look like the second coming of Dan Marino with some of those passes. But you have to admit, in every game we played, the offense would start out looking dominant and would then go dormant like Bermuda Grass in the winter time. The Defense.....they were much more like a tall fescue. :)

Mafia... please ignore the "now take that" I was going to add that on to the end of a sentence, ..now take that stat and.. but I thought I erased it.

Oakland has a good D.. the O though??? and we kept scoring TD's in the Oakland game but the Raiders kept marching right back down...

KC.. we gave up a ST's TD and Ben had issues in the red.. I think Heath also had an inexcusable drop for an INT... all that and we still had a chance to win... but the 4th quarter D gave up crucial plays to another sub par offensive team.

24 or 27 points is more then enough to beat KC.

Offensive rankings
KC is 25th and scored 20 second half points
Oakland is 31th and scored 21 points in the 4th

I'll take leads and an offense having a hard time adjusting with the lead over a D who can't stop the Bears making a 3rd & 18, the Chiefs turned a 3rd & 26, the Raiders 3rd & 25 & even the Browns made a 3rd &18, Miami turning a 2nd 20 and Baltimore having 3rd and 20 and getting 60 yards the next 2 plays.

NWNewell
01-05-2010, 01:24 PM
OK...I will. The Miami game is a bad example becase they are a descent team. Not a great team, but a descent one. However, how many points did we leave on the field in the Oakland game, or the Cleveland Game, or the KC game. Are you telling me that these bottom feeder teams could have powered their way back into the game and recover a 21+ point deficit? I don't think so. Now granted, our D made Miami's 3rd string QB look like the second coming of Dan Marino with some of those passes. But you have to admit, in every game we played, the offense would start out looking dominant and would then go dormant like Bermuda Grass in the winter time. The Defense.....they were much more like a tall fescue. :)

This is why it's call a team sport, ladies. Total production from all phases for 60 minutes has to exceed the other teams production.

It's not rocket science and can be twisted any way you want. But simply put both offense and defensive overall production this year was simply a bit better than average this year, making the total team accomplishments, only a bit better than average. The bit better than average 9-7 record and missing the playoffs.

One or the other, preferably both, has to pick up to get the total team production back to playoff caliber.

NorthCoast
01-05-2010, 01:55 PM
I don't think it's too much to ask to expect your $100 million QB to identify problems within his game and attempt to make improvements in that area.

Everybody in every profession does it.

If Ben (and our OC, BA or otherwise) can improve this area, this offense can be truly scary with the talent already in place.

So what you're telling me is that those numbers are indicative of Ben and only Ben?

Dropped passes don't factor in? Passes thrown away? Tipped passes? WR is open but an O lineman misses a block, disrupting the play? Etc, etc, etc?

Ben isn't Bugs Bunny...he's not throwing it to himself.

That's why you can't just throw crap like that out there and say, "Ben is not a RZ QB". It's a team game.

I knew this argument was coming. I disagree. I chose career stats, not single game or season. Over 4 yrs time and the hundreds of plays the things you suggest should balance out. The one constant is the QB. Are you suggesting a team with two MVP WRs, a pro-bowl TE are the cause of Ben's problems?

I took a look at the Rivers, Mannings, Warners and they are all consistent (with a 10 pt spread) in the red zone.

Face it, Ben's game has weaknesses that can be greatly help by a stronger running game. He is not a timing passer (at least does it grudgingly).

feltdizz
01-05-2010, 01:57 PM
I don't think it's too much to ask to expect your $100 million QB to identify problems within his game and attempt to make improvements in that area.

Everybody in every profession does it.

If Ben (and our OC, BA or otherwise) can improve this area, this offense can be truly scary with the talent already in place.

So what you're telling me is that those numbers are indicative of Ben and only Ben?

Dropped passes don't factor in? Passes thrown away? Tipped passes? WR is open but an O lineman misses a block, disrupting the play? Etc, etc, etc?

Ben isn't Bugs Bunny...he's not throwing it to himself.

That's why you can't just throw crap like that out there and say, "Ben is not a RZ QB". It's a team game.

I knew this argument was coming. I disagree. I chose career stats, not single game or season. Over 4 yrs time and the hundreds of plays the things you suggest should balance out. The one constant is the QB. Are you suggesting a team with two MVP WRs, a pro-bowl TE are the cause of Ben's problems?

I took a look at the Rivers, Mannings, Warners and they are all consistent (with a 10 pt spread) in the red zone.

Face it, Ben's game has weaknesses that can be greatly help by a stronger running game. He is not a timing passer (at least does it grudgingly).

stop throwing crap out here :stirpot

Steeler Mafia
01-05-2010, 02:14 PM
OK...I will. The Miami game is a bad example becase they are a descent team. Not a great team, but a descent one. However, how many points did we leave on the field in the Oakland game, or the Cleveland Game, or the KC game. Are you telling me that these bottom feeder teams could have powered their way back into the game and recover a 21+ point deficit? I don't think so. Now granted, our D made Miami's 3rd string QB look like the second coming of Dan Marino with some of those passes. But you have to admit, in every game we played, the offense would start out looking dominant and would then go dormant like Bermuda Grass in the winter time. The Defense.....they were much more like a tall fescue. :)

This is why it's call a team sport, ladies. Total production from all phases for 60 minutes has to exceed the other teams production.

It's not rocket science and can be twisted any way you want. But simply put both offense and defensive overall production this year was simply a bit better than average this year, making the total team accomplishments, only a bit better than average. The bit better than average 9-7 record and missing the playoffs.

One or the other, preferably not both, has to pick up to get the total team production back to playoff caliber.

What are you babbling about? :stirpot

Steeler Mafia
01-05-2010, 02:27 PM
sorry buddy but our O could never score enough points to protect a lead with the D this year. you could change the 3 or 10 to 14 or 21...once the fourth quarter started all bets were off.

We were up 17 points against Miami and people still say our O failed because they went 3 and out on one series and Miami put up 14 in 3 minutes. Regardless.. it's 17 freaking points.. luckily they got the TO's we seldom saw this year.


now take that

OK...I will. The Miami game is a bad example becase they are a descent team. Not a great team, but a descent one. However, how many points did we leave on the field in the Oakland game, or the Cleveland Game, or the KC game. Are you telling me that these bottom feeder teams could have powered their way back into the game and recover a 21+ point deficit? I don't think so. Now granted, our D made Miami's 3rd string QB look like the second coming of Dan Marino with some of those passes. But you have to admit, in every game we played, the offense would start out looking dominant and would then go dormant like Bermuda Grass in the winter time. The Defense.....they were much more like a tall fescue. :)

Mafia... please ignore the "now take that" I was going to add that on to the end of a sentence, ..now take that stat and.. but I thought I erased it.

Oakland has a good D.. the O though??? and we kept scoring TD's in the Oakland game but the Raiders kept marching right back down...

KC.. we gave up a ST's TD and Ben had issues in the red.. I think Heath also had an inexcusable drop for an INT... all that and we still had a chance to win... but the 4th quarter D gave up crucial plays to another sub par offensive team.

24 or 27 points is more then enough to beat KC.

Offensive rankings
KC is 25th and scored 20 second half points
Oakland is 31th and scored 21 points in the 4th

I'll take leads and an offense having a hard time adjusting with the lead over a D who can't stop the Bears making a 3rd & 18, the Chiefs turned a 3rd & 26, the Raiders 3rd & 25 & even the Browns made a 3rd &18, Miami turning a 2nd 20 and Baltimore having 3rd and 20 and getting 60 yards the next 2 plays.

No problem Felt. I was doing my best Lee Corso impersonation with the "Not so Fast my friend" remark. I thought you were playing the part of Kirk Herbstreet.

Now, while I agree that 27 points should be enough to beat both KC and Oakland, we still could of had much more, especially against those two teams. We played down to our competitioin this year. In those two games we could have easily put up 40 points and put the game so far out of reach that any thought of a comeback would have been useless.

The D gave up a lot of points in the final quarters and we all now see that we are not a deep team in the secondary or on the line. However, unlike the the offense, I believe the probelms on D was not schematic but more of personnel and their "me first" mind set rather than "for the team"

In an article in the Post Gazette I read today, I found this which goes along with what I have said about or D this year.

"I think there are going to be a lot of changes, I really do," Harrison said. "It's going to be a little of both. We'll see."

But Harrison, one of two Steelers named last week to the AFC Pro Bowl team, intimated that there needs to be another change next season, as well -- in the attitude of some players. He said the Steelers appeared more interested in personal goals than team goals this season.

"I think at times we played as a team and, at times, we played as individuals," he said. "Sometimes it may have seemed that some individual things were more important than actually the whole concept of the team."

SteelAbility
01-05-2010, 05:02 PM
You know, it's really impossible to divorce analysis of your O from your D (and vice-versa). There's a debate raging over which is more of a cause. There is cause and effect working in both directions. I do think that the O has under-produced more relative to its potential. Our D produced much closer to its no-Troy and no-Aaron Smith potential.

skyhawk
01-05-2010, 05:29 PM
If this team repairs its underaverage offensive line, it goes to the SB next year.

feltdizz
01-05-2010, 06:15 PM
You know, it's really impossible to divorce analysis of your O from your D (and vice-versa). There's a debate raging over which is more of a cause. There is cause and effect working in both directions. I do think that the O has under-produced more relative to its potential. Our D produced much closer to its no-Troy and no-Aaron Smith potential.

for 3 quarters.. but in the 4th our D went to places I never thought possible

stlrz d
01-05-2010, 08:57 PM
I don't think it's too much to ask to expect your $100 million QB to identify problems within his game and attempt to make improvements in that area.

Everybody in every profession does it.

If Ben (and our OC, BA or otherwise) can improve this area, this offense can be truly scary with the talent already in place.

So what you're telling me is that those numbers are indicative of Ben and only Ben?

Dropped passes don't factor in? Passes thrown away? Tipped passes? WR is open but an O lineman misses a block, disrupting the play? Etc, etc, etc?

Ben isn't Bugs Bunny...he's not throwing it to himself.

That's why you can't just throw crap like that out there and say, "Ben is not a RZ QB". It's a team game.

I knew this argument was coming. I disagree. I chose career stats, not single game or season. Over 4 yrs time and the hundreds of plays the things you suggest should balance out. The one constant is the QB. Are you suggesting a team with two MVP WRs, a pro-bowl TE are the cause of Ben's problems?

I took a look at the Rivers, Mannings, Warners and they are all consistent (with a 10 pt spread) in the red zone.

Face it, Ben's game has weaknesses that can be greatly help by a stronger running game. He is not a timing passer (at least does it grudgingly).

There's the key word right there. Should. There are far too many variables to look at the numbers and say that "Ben is not a RZ QB".

I'm not saying that he's perfect. I'm not saying that he's bad.

What I'm saying is that you should trust your eyeballs and what you see in a game...not numbers on a page. Those numbers can mean anything. I can take those same numbers, look at the other personnel on the field and twist it to say something like "when X lineman is in/out of the game we are inconsistent in the RZ" too. And that would be every bit as "credible" as what you posted.

NorthCoast
01-05-2010, 09:40 PM
I will make a few more points and then shut up about it. If you ask me to accept the premise that the 'bad' numbers are due to drops, bad luck, etc. then I think you need to accept the counter argument that the 'good' numbers are equally influenced by 'lucky' plays, etc. You can't make the argument one-sided. That is why I say given the number of data points the values gravitate to the mean (a little mathematics for you).

I was actually waiting for someone to post about the curiously low QB ratings for 1st and 3rd down, but curiously high ratings for 2nd and 4th down. It not only is influenced by the QB but more importantly it may be influenced by the playcalling. Do we follow some pattern? Passes to the TE on 1st & goal, and passes to a WR on 3rd & goal? How is Ben able to achieve >100 ratings for two downs but is mediocre for the other two downs? I am wondering if there is a propensity to run certain plays in certain situations....this is another sign of playcalling, gameplanning deficiency. The other thing is if we cannot run in the redzone, it effectively cuts the playbook in half (or in BA's case 60/40). These arguments I can accept as explanation.

stlrz d
01-05-2010, 10:03 PM
All I'm saying is with 22 dudes on the field, 11 on one side and 11 on the other, there aren't any numbers that will convince me it falls mainly on just one of those 22.

Peace. :)

feltdizz
01-05-2010, 10:11 PM
When talking redzone and QB you have 10 players to blame and the OC..

Since we all know we pass all the time most of the blame and praise will go to Ben...

This year with low numbers he gets the blame... another year if the numbers are up he gets the praise...

He is the QB..

NorthCoast
01-05-2010, 10:23 PM
When talking redzone and QB you have 10 players to blame and the OC..

Since we all know we pass all the time most of the blame and praise will go to Ben...

This year with low numbers he gets the blame... another year if the numbers are up he gets the praise...

He is the QB..

Again, these situational stats are average ratings by down over 5 yrs of play! not just this season. There have been two HCs and two OCs in this timeframe. But it has been all Ben at QB.

OK, I will move on now.

thanks for listening.....

stlrz d
01-05-2010, 10:29 PM
When talking redzone and QB you have 10 players to blame and the OC..

Since we all know we pass all the time most of the blame and praise will go to Ben...

This year with low numbers he gets the blame... another year if the numbers are up he gets the praise...

He is the QB..

Again, these situational stats are average ratings by down over 5 yrs of play! not just this season. There have been two HCs and two OCs in this timeframe. But it has been all Ben at QB.

OK, I will move on now.

thanks for listening.....

That's fine...but there are still far too many other variables.

That's all I've been sayin'.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
01-06-2010, 01:48 AM
My gut feeling is that Ben has a harder time than other elite QBs (P Manning, Brady*) in knowing where he needs to throw the ball before it is snapped. I think he's just not as smart as those guys in reading where the D is lining up, and what that will mean 1.1 seconds after the snap.

And that's not as important on your own 20 as in the RZ, IMO, so I agree with the posted subject of this thread. I do expect him to get better at it though!