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Slapstick
01-04-2010, 02:27 AM
Tomlin is an advocate of continuity on his team. The Steelers were not a bad team this year, they just, as Tomlin said, failed to make plays at critical points in those losses while their opponents did...

It's obvious that some changes MUST be made...the challenge is balancing necessary changes with maintaining some level of continuity....

Personnel: I don't think that Hampton or Clark are back next year. It's just a gut feeling. Nor do I believe that Willie Parker will be with the team. I hope he is, but I doubt it. Tyrone Carter will most likely be gone, IMO. Beyond that, most of the team will remain intact. I think the real turnover will be within the coaching staff...

Coaches: I think Arians is gone. Where there's smoke, there's fire. Both Jay Glazer and Adam Schefter reported that Arians will be gone. I think the chances are very good that this happens. With Arians gone, Zierlein will go as well. Ben has been sacked too many times. Bob Ligashesky? Bye-bye. Ray Horton? I'd watch my back if I were Ray.

Dick LeBeau?

Man, he's the youngest looking septuagenarian I've ever seen. But he claimed that as long as the defense was playing well, he'd stay. Well, guess what?

Maybe Ken Anderson will be promoted to OC. I'd be okay with that. Why does it matter who allows Ben to call the plays?

I'd like to see Jeremy Bates be hired to coach QBs. Jay Cutler loved him in Denver. Having a QB coach like that might soften the blow of losing Arians. Bates is currently with USC, who endured their worst season since Pete Carroll's first. Perhaps working with Tomlin (again) and a two-time SB winning QB would be enough to lure him to Pittsburgh.

Right now, I don't have any definite ideas about an O-Line coach, but I know what would be a dream come true: Supposedly, Jim Zorn will be axed this week. If Tomlin could get Pittsburgh native Joe Bugel to take over the O-Line, it would make a world of difference, IMO.

With those three, the offense would take a decidedly "West Coast" look, which might not be a bad thing. Anderson ran the earliest version of the WCO as a player under Bill Walsh and then coached it under Bruce Coslet. Bates worked for Shanahan in Denver. Bugel has drawn up blocking schemes for Jim Zorn's WCO for the last few years. I'm not saying that they would run a pure "Mike Holmgren" version, but it would be adapted to the Steelers. Why not? Ben is already recording 500 yard passing games...

I don't know if LeBeau will fully retire, but he may take a step back and be a Special Assistant like he was in Buffalo back in 2003. In 2003, LeBeau was a young man of 66 and he wanted to call the defense himself. Now, older, wiser and carrying two SB rings AND an almost certain HoF induction, he may able to step back.

If that's the case, then Keith Butler is the logical choice to replace him. I would have no problem with this.

Then, you would need a new linebackers coach. If Jack Del Rio is shown the door in Jacksonville (also a very distinct possibility) Mark Duffner would be available. Duffner worked for LeBeau in Cincy, first as LB coach and then as DC. Supposedly, back in 2000 when LeBeau was hired as coach of the Bengals, Mike Brown first offered the job to Duffner who declined out of respect for LeBeau.

If Ray Horton goes, I'd like to see Perry Fewell hired to coach DBs. I don't think that he's HC material at this time, but he's worked under both Lovie Smith (in Chicago) and Dom Capers (in Jacksonville), so he's familiar with what DBs need to do in a "Tampa-2" and in a Zone Blitz scheme. He has a very similar background to Tomlin, in fact.

Hiring these two might make it easier to transition to a 4-3 or a hybrid defense...Duffner was there when LeBeau switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4 in Cincinnati. Fewell was in Jacksonville when Capers ran his 3-4/4-3 hybrid D that led the league and the Jags went 14-2.

Special Teams?

I'd love to see Bobby April, the best in the business IMO, return to Pittsburgh. He's got a gift.

It's all just wishful thinking at this point....

Crap! This ended up being long! Well, we have a long offseason with lots of time to read, eh?

SteelAbility
01-04-2010, 08:06 AM
ReTOOLing the Steelers? There were certainly some guys playing like tools during that 5-game losing streak. How about overhaul or rehashing? We don't need another tooling. :P

Oviedo
01-04-2010, 08:59 AM
The biggest thing that will determine who goes and who stays will be whether Tomlin takes this window of opportunity to switch to the 4-3 defense. With the total collapse of the defense this season this is the window of opportunity he would need. There will never be a better time and it best fits the players we have.

IMO we will switch so this is how it falls out:

Players leaving: Hampton, Clark and Tyrone Carter. The Steelers will try to keep both Jeff Reed and Wille Parker but at the price the team wants. They will not getting into bidding competition for either. Parker had better pay close attention to what happened with Derrick Ward last year. There is little to no free agent market for RBs, particularly one over 30 with a recent history of injuries. Ward is a much better and younger RB than Parker. FWP should do the right thing and sign for a discount just like Bettis.

Coaches: Arians has taken the offense as far as he can. He should go. With him should go Coach Z. LeBeau should enjoy his HoF induction and also move on and as mentioned stay on as a consultant. Ligashevsky should also go because special teams have been inconsistent. I'd like to see Bobby April too but if Cowher is coaching that is where he is likely to go. Blowing up a coaching staff like this has risks but remember Tomlin inherited these guys and this will be his opportunity to get "his guys" in. It may take a year to get everyone on the same page but we need to consider a step back to take two steps forward.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
01-04-2010, 09:37 AM
As far as coaching staff, I would like to see a new ST coach and OL coach. I hope DL retires a Steeler. I would be willing to give him one more year if they give him some new blood to work with. As far as Arians, I could see him staying another year. I really think he needs an assistant who might be a young QB coach or WR coach. An example would be WR coach from the Saints, Curtis Johnson. I'm not sure if they could talk to him if the Steelers offer was AOC or possibly an AHC but something or someone of that nature. Two things accomplished with a move like this. Getting an individual in here who could help Arians develop talent and evolve the passing game. Arians has a good mind for the vertical attack but as we have seen the intermediate passing game is just starting to come along. The Steelers O struggled when the defense would try to take away the vertical game. Safeties high and man underneath is not a favorable defense to go vertical on. It took Arains too long to adjust but a fresh set of eyes could accelerate the process. The other thing this would accomplish is ease in transition if necessary. Having a guy in here to learn the system in place and add on is always a good thing. Changing OC is never an easy process on the team or the QB in general. If Arians needs to be replaced after next year the AOC can make the easy transition.

As far as the players...It is really simple. I know everyone is eyeing the OL as a big target. There are pieces that need to be put in place but don't forget the left side of the OL is set. A C is needed for the future, maybe near future. I don't know if that guy is currently in the system. Urbik could be a possibilty at C or G depending how the Steelers feel. The rest would hinge on what they do with Colon. If anything, this will be addressed through the draft. I just don't expect it to be in the first 2 rounds unless Colon walks. If it is an uncapped year, I do belive Colon will not be an unrestricted FA because qualifications change. OL changes hinge on what happens to Colon.

I could see a RB being drafted in the mid to late rounds if Parker doesn't return. Most other offensive postions are set. I could also see a vet QB being brought in.

I would franchise Hampton this year. What the Steelers do with Clark could have an impact on the draft. I would like to see him back for the right price. Franchising Hampton would allow the Steelers time to develop an early pick. This team also needs help in the secondary. Early & often in the draft. At least a possible starting CB & a S. Farrior's replacement has to be drafted in the first 3 rounds. Replacing him is coming sooner than later. We should also see an OLB taken in the mid to late rounds. Bruce Davis set us back a bit at OLB depth. It would not surprise me to see a DT, CB, ILB taken with the first three picks (In any order).

One thing I think we will see is one or two FA signings. It is about that time where we will see the Steelers make that "Farrior" or "Hartings" type of signing. They need some upgrades quickly and this might be the right time to do it. If it is an uncapped year, the Steelers will be a team that can bring someone in, in a non replacement signing. The heard is thinned out by the new rules but some good players on bad teams might not want to stick around another year for 2011 free agency. Some of the big spenders or more appealing teams could be eliminated if they go further into the playoffs. The uncapped year could really have an impact on several aspects of the entire league. Such as trades, draft day trades, and teams who are normally quiet in FA having an opportunity to get a quality player looking for a new start. This will be an interesting off season to say the least.

Chadman
01-04-2010, 09:42 AM
Any interest in bringing in Joey Porter to REPLACE Farrior at ILB?


Just throwing it out there....

Oviedo
01-04-2010, 09:48 AM
As far as coaching staff, I would like to see a new ST coach and OL coach. I hope DL retires a Steeler. I would be willing to give him one more year if they give him some new blood to work with. As far as Arians, I could see him staying another year. I really think he needs an assistant who might be a young QB coach or WR coach. An example would be WR coach from the Saints, Curtis Johnson. I'm not sure if they could talk to him if the Steelers offer was AOC or possibly an AHC but something or someone of that nature. Two things accomplished with a move like this. Getting an individual in here who could help Arians develop talent and evolve the passing game. Arians has a good mind for the vertical attack but as we have seen the intermediate passing game is just starting to come along. The Steelers O struggled when the defense would try to take away the vertical game. Safeties high and man underneath is not a favorable defense to go vertical on. It took Arains too long to adjust but a fresh set of eyes could accelerate the process. The other thing this would accomplish is ease in transition if necessary. Having a guy in here to learn the system in place and add on is always a good thing. Changing OC is never an easy process on the team or the QB in general. If Arians needs to be replaced after next year the AOC can make the easy transition.

As far as the players...It is really simple. I know everyone is eyeing the OL as a big target. There are pieces that need to be put in place but don't forget the left side of the OL is set. A C is needed for the future, maybe near future. I don't know if that guy is currently in the system. Urbik could be a possibilty at C or G depending how the Steelers feel. The rest would hinge on what they do with Colon. If anything, this will be addressed through the draft. I just don't expect it to be in the first 2 rounds unless Colon walks. If it is an uncapped year, I do belive Colon will not be an unrestricted FA because qualifications change. OL changes hinge on what happens to Colon.

I could see a RB being drafted in the mid to late rounds if Parker doesn't return. Most other offensive postions are set. I could also see a vet QB being brought in.

I would franchise Hampton this year. What the Steelers do with Clark could have an impact on the draft. I would like to see him back for the right price. Franchising Hampton would allow the Steelers time to develop an early pick. This team also needs help in the secondary. Early & often in the draft. At least a possible starting CB & a S. Farrior's replacement has to be drafted in the first 3 rounds. Replacing him is coming sooner than later. We should also see an OLB taken in the mid to late rounds. Bruce Davis set us back a bit at OLB depth. It would not surprise me to see a DT, CB, ILB taken with the first three picks (In any order).

One thing I think we will see is one or two FA signings. It is about that time where we will see the Steelers make that "Farrior" or "Hartings" type of signing. They need some upgrades quickly and this might be the right time to do it. If it is an uncapped year, the Steelers will be a team that can bring someone in, in a non replacement signing. The heard is thinned out by the new rules but some good players on bad teams might not want to stick around another year for 2011 free agency. Some of the big spenders or more appealing teams could be eliminated if they go further into the playoffs. The uncapped year could really have an impact on several aspects of the entire league. Such as trades, draft day trades, and teams who are normally quiet in FA having an opportunity to get a quality player looking for a new start. This will be an interesting off season to say the least.

If FWP does not return I could see going for a RB very early in the draft.

Not sure franchising Hampton will be a good idea. He has clearly made it known he doesn't want to tagged and in the past he has shown a less than stellar level of motivation when he was under a contract he wanted. he could create another Faneca situation if tagged. The NT dilemma is a major issue on this defense so just switch to the 4-3 and eliminate the issue in the near and long term.

stlrz d
01-04-2010, 09:50 AM
Any interest in bringing in Joey Porter to REPLACE Farrior at ILB?


Just throwing it out there....

Peezy's never been a real stout guy against the run.

He'd be a good situational pass rusher for someone...but not us.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
01-04-2010, 10:25 AM
As far as coaching staff, I would like to see a new ST coach and OL coach. I hope DL retires a Steeler. I would be willing to give him one more year if they give him some new blood to work with. As far as Arians, I could see him staying another year. I really think he needs an assistant who might be a young QB coach or WR coach. An example would be WR coach from the Saints, Curtis Johnson. I'm not sure if they could talk to him if the Steelers offer was AOC or possibly an AHC but something or someone of that nature. Two things accomplished with a move like this. Getting an individual in here who could help Arians develop talent and evolve the passing game. Arians has a good mind for the vertical attack but as we have seen the intermediate passing game is just starting to come along. The Steelers O struggled when the defense would try to take away the vertical game. Safeties high and man underneath is not a favorable defense to go vertical on. It took Arains too long to adjust but a fresh set of eyes could accelerate the process. The other thing this would accomplish is ease in transition if necessary. Having a guy in here to learn the system in place and add on is always a good thing. Changing OC is never an easy process on the team or the QB in general. If Arians needs to be replaced after next year the AOC can make the easy transition.

As far as the players...It is really simple. I know everyone is eyeing the OL as a big target. There are pieces that need to be put in place but don't forget the left side of the OL is set. A C is needed for the future, maybe near future. I don't know if that guy is currently in the system. Urbik could be a possibilty at C or G depending how the Steelers feel. The rest would hinge on what they do with Colon. If anything, this will be addressed through the draft. I just don't expect it to be in the first 2 rounds unless Colon walks. If it is an uncapped year, I do belive Colon will not be an unrestricted FA because qualifications change. OL changes hinge on what happens to Colon.

I could see a RB being drafted in the mid to late rounds if Parker doesn't return. Most other offensive postions are set. I could also see a vet QB being brought in.

I would franchise Hampton this year. What the Steelers do with Clark could have an impact on the draft. I would like to see him back for the right price. Franchising Hampton would allow the Steelers time to develop an early pick. This team also needs help in the secondary. Early & often in the draft. At least a possible starting CB & a S. Farrior's replacement has to be drafted in the first 3 rounds. Replacing him is coming sooner than later. We should also see an OLB taken in the mid to late rounds. Bruce Davis set us back a bit at OLB depth. It would not surprise me to see a DT, CB, ILB taken with the first three picks (In any order).

One thing I think we will see is one or two FA signings. It is about that time where we will see the Steelers make that "Farrior" or "Hartings" type of signing. They need some upgrades quickly and this might be the right time to do it. If it is an uncapped year, the Steelers will be a team that can bring someone in, in a non replacement signing. The heard is thinned out by the new rules but some good players on bad teams might not want to stick around another year for 2011 free agency. Some of the big spenders or more appealing teams could be eliminated if they go further into the playoffs. The uncapped year could really have an impact on several aspects of the entire league. Such as trades, draft day trades, and teams who are normally quiet in FA having an opportunity to get a quality player looking for a new start. This will be an interesting off season to say the least.

If FWP does not return I could see going for a RB very early in the draft.

Not sure franchising Hampton will be a good idea. He has clearly made it known he doesn't want to tagged and in the past he has shown a less than stellar level of motivation when he was under a contract he wanted. he could create another Faneca situation if tagged. The NT dilemma is a major issue on this defense so just switch to the 4-3 and eliminate the issue in the near and long term.

I really don't think it matters what Hampton wants. No player wants to be tagged but it is the teams decision. He will be paid his worth. Gives the Steelers some insurance heading into the draft. I don't think he is in any postion to under perform for a DL lineman over 30 looking for a big contract if he plays his franchise tag out.

I could see them drafting a RB if Parker leaves. Unless they have another "Mendenhall" situation in the draft...I think the Steelers board will have other players rated higher that fills more needs.

Going to the 4-3 only creates more issues. We do not have 4-3 personnell. You could try Smith inside but after this injury who knows. I think you take a great player and make him an average player with this move. Still need another DT. Hood & Harris are not inside players on this level right now. Hood "might" get there but I don't see it happening by next year. Farrior is no MLB at this point in his carrer for the 4-3. Woodley can play DE, I have confidence in that. Keisel might be able to handle the RDE but he would really be average at best. He doesn't have the pass rush skill to be a 4-3 DE. Timmons could play LB in the 4-3. Might be able to play all positions and excel at it. The biggest problem would be Harrison. Where do you put him? He can't play with his hand on the ground in a 4-3. He would be OK there in passing situations. He would just disappear at RDE in a 4-3 in base. You take a probowl player out of his strongest spot and line him up off the LOS. Make him run sideline to sideline. Not a good fit for him at all. This team needs a player overhaul to go to the 4-3.

SteelAbility
01-04-2010, 10:43 AM
Any interest in bringing in Joey Porter to REPLACE Farrior at ILB?


Just throwing it out there....

Not worth the price tag, unless he drops his price waaaayyy down, which seems very unlikely.

papillon
01-04-2010, 10:54 AM
Going to the 4-3 only creates more issues. We do not have 4-3 personnell. You could try Smith inside but after this injury who knows. I think you take a great player and make him an average player with this move. Still need another DT. Hood & Harris are not inside players on this level right now. Hood "might" get there but I don't see it happening by next year. Farrior is no MLB at this point in his carrer for the 4-3. Woodley can play DE, I have confidence in that. Keisel might be able to handle the RDE but he would really be average at best. He doesn't have the pass rush skill to be a 4-3 DE. Timmons could play LB in the 4-3. Might be able to play all positions and excel at it. The biggest problem would be Harrison. Where do you put him? He can't play with his hand on the ground in a 4-3. He would be OK there in passing situations. He would just disappear at RDE in a 4-3 in base. You take a probowl player out of his strongest spot and line him up off the LOS. Make him run sideline to sideline. Not a good fit for him at all. This team needs a player overhaul to go to the 4-3.

Thank you for explaining what I believed, but not knowledgeable enough to explain. :Bow

Pappy

flippy
01-04-2010, 11:58 AM
Fix the pass rush.

I really think it's that simple. Ben can overcome all of our shortcomings on O and a great pass rush can cover all of our shortcomings on defense. Everything else is icing on the cake.

Fix the pass rush and we're back in the SuperBowl.

Oviedo
01-04-2010, 12:20 PM
Fix the pass rush.

I really think it's that simple. Ben can overcome all of our shortcomings on O and a great pass rush can cover all of our shortcomings on defense. Everything else is icing on the cake.

Fix the pass rush and we're back in the SuperBowl.

Not sure how much you can fix it when 330lbs OTs are allowed by the league to hold and mug your 250lb OLBs. As long as holding is not going to be called pass rushing 3-4 OLBs are going to be put at a disadvantage.

feltdizz
01-04-2010, 01:32 PM
Fix the pass rush.

I really think it's that simple. Ben can overcome all of our shortcomings on O and a great pass rush can cover all of our shortcomings on defense. Everything else is icing on the cake.

Fix the pass rush and we're back in the SuperBowl.

Not sure how much you can fix it when 330lbs OTs are allowed by the league to hold and mug your 250lb OLBs. As long as holding is not going to be called pass rushing 3-4 OLBs are going to be put at a disadvantage.

James Harrison needs to work on an inside move.. the outside speed rush is not getting recognized as a hold, he needs to adjust. He did have 10 sacks this year.. last year was a once in a lifetime year.

SteelAbility
01-04-2010, 01:34 PM
Fix the pass rush.

I really think it's that simple. Ben can overcome all of our shortcomings on O and a great pass rush can cover all of our shortcomings on defense. Everything else is icing on the cake.

Fix the pass rush and we're back in the SuperBowl.

Not sure how much you can fix it when 330lbs OTs are allowed by the league to hold and mug your 250lb OLBs. As long as holding is not going to be called pass rushing 3-4 OLBs are going to be put at a disadvantage.

James Harrison needs to work on an inside move.. the outside speed rush is not getting recognized as a hold, he needs to adjust. He did have 10 sacks this year.. last year was a once in a lifetime year.

Absolutely agreed. The inside move will make the OL have to be honest with their feet and open up more opp's for the outside move to be effective.

Slapstick
01-04-2010, 01:45 PM
IF the Steelers decided to move to a 4-3, Harrison would be the best fit, in my mind, at SLB...

He's the Steelers best tackler and tougher than hell against the run...

That is a spot that also lends itself to some pass rushing opportunities...

Given the fact that Harrison is like a Romulan cloaking device for offensive holding, perhaps putting him in a position where he won't be held constantly yet still rush the passer (albeit less frequently) would work out for him...

Oviedo
01-04-2010, 01:52 PM
IF the Steelers decided to move to a 4-3, Harrison would be the best fit, in my mind, at SLB...

He's the Steelers best tackler and tougher than hell against the run...

That is a spot that also lends itself to some pass rushing opportunities...

Given the fact that Harrison is like a Romulan cloaking device for offensive holding, perhaps putting him in a position where he won't be held constantly yet still rush the passer (albeit less frequently) would work out for him...

That's my thoughts on the subject.

Slapstick
01-04-2010, 02:03 PM
Going to the 4-3 only creates more issues. We do not have 4-3 personnell. You could try Smith inside but after this injury who knows. I think you take a great player and make him an average player with this move. Still need another DT. Hood & Harris are not inside players on this level right now. Hood "might" get there but I don't see it happening by next year. Farrior is no MLB at this point in his carrer for the 4-3. Woodley can play DE, I have confidence in that. Keisel might be able to handle the RDE but he would really be average at best. He doesn't have the pass rush skill to be a 4-3 DE. Timmons could play LB in the 4-3. Might be able to play all positions and excel at it. The biggest problem would be Harrison. Where do you put him? He can't play with his hand on the ground in a 4-3. He would be OK there in passing situations. He would just disappear at RDE in a 4-3 in base. You take a probowl player out of his strongest spot and line him up off the LOS. Make him run sideline to sideline. Not a good fit for him at all. This team needs a player overhaul to go to the 4-3.

What's the worst that could happen with a 4-3? The Steelers might lose five games in a row? Three of those to the league's bottom dwellers?

I think Keisel would work out well as a 4-3 DE, IMO...

Especially in a Tampa-2, the DEs need to be athletic and relentless...Keisel is both...

flippy
01-04-2010, 02:31 PM
I don't care if we go with 2 Dlineman or 4. Just get some big athletic guys like Woodley and Smith/Keisel and let them attack.

And let's try Timmons more on the outside as a pass rusher. For as much talk as there is about Harrison getting doubled and triple teamed, I see him getting held all the time by just one guy and teams are using multiple blockers on Woodley because he's becoming the better player.

Timmons has freakish quickness. That's a weapon off the edge that I want to see us use more.

As well as Harrison played last year, he's got 1 move and didn't play the run that well this year. All the big runs seem to go his way.

papillon
01-04-2010, 02:33 PM
Going to the 4-3 only creates more issues. We do not have 4-3 personnell. You could try Smith inside but after this injury who knows. I think you take a great player and make him an average player with this move. Still need another DT. Hood & Harris are not inside players on this level right now. Hood "might" get there but I don't see it happening by next year. Farrior is no MLB at this point in his carrer for the 4-3. Woodley can play DE, I have confidence in that. Keisel might be able to handle the RDE but he would really be average at best. He doesn't have the pass rush skill to be a 4-3 DE. Timmons could play LB in the 4-3. Might be able to play all positions and excel at it. The biggest problem would be Harrison. Where do you put him? He can't play with his hand on the ground in a 4-3. He would be OK there in passing situations. He would just disappear at RDE in a 4-3 in base. You take a probowl player out of his strongest spot and line him up off the LOS. Make him run sideline to sideline. Not a good fit for him at all. This team needs a player overhaul to go to the 4-3.

What's the worst that could happen with a 4-3? The Steelers might lose five games in a row? Three of those to the league's bottom dwellers?

I think Keisel would work out well as a 4-3 DE, IMO...

Especially in a Tampa-2, the DEs need to be athletic and relentless...Keisel is both...

I'll give you relentless on Kiesel, but not athletic. Thinking of Dwight White, LC Greenwood, Ed "Too Tall" Jones, Charles Haley, etc then you're talking athletic. Kiesel would be an average DE in the 4-3; he doesn't pass rush very well, but he is relentless and would get some sacks.

Pappy

NW Steeler
01-04-2010, 03:58 PM
Timmons has freakish quickness. That's a weapon off the edge that I want to see us use more.
.

Timmons looked like he was shot out of a cannon yesterday when he came untouched up the middle and floored White. Granted, he wasn't blocked, but I don't think I've seen a LB shoot a gap that fast.

Slapstick
01-04-2010, 04:31 PM
I'll give you relentless on Kiesel, but not athletic. Thinking of Dwight White, LC Greenwood, Ed "Too Tall" Jones, Charles Haley, etc then you're talking athletic. Kiesel would be an average DE in the 4-3; he doesn't pass rush very well, but he is relentless and would get some sacks.

Pappy

IMO, Keisel is possibly too good of an athlete to be plugging gaps in a 3-4...he is tall and rangy and runs REALLY well for a 6'5", 290lb man...he also has a penchant for knocking down passes at the LOS (15 in his four years as a starter) which can only be a good thing for a DE...the Steelers actually worked him out at OLB at times...

I think he would perform better than many think...

papillon
01-04-2010, 04:42 PM
I'll give you relentless on Kiesel, but not athletic. Thinking of Dwight White, LC Greenwood, Ed "Too Tall" Jones, Charles Haley, etc then you're talking athletic. Kiesel would be an average DE in the 4-3; he doesn't pass rush very well, but he is relentless and would get some sacks.

Pappy

IMO, Keisel is possibly too good of an athlete to be plugging gaps in a 3-4...he is tall and rangy and runs REALLY well for a 6'5", 290lb man...he also has a penchant for knocking down passes at the LOS (15 in his four years as a starter) which can only be a good thing for a DE...the Steelers actually worked him out at OLB at times...

I think he would perform better than many think...

The OLB experiment was short lived. He does knock down a lot of passes to be sure and he may surpeise many as 4-3 DE, but I wouldn't want to have to count on it.

Pappy

grotonsteel
01-04-2010, 05:02 PM
Going to the 4-3 only creates more issues. We do not have 4-3 personnell. You could try Smith inside but after this injury who knows. I think you take a great player and make him an average player with this move. Still need another DT. Hood & Harris are not inside players on this level right now. Hood "might" get there but I don't see it happening by next year. Farrior is no MLB at this point in his carrer for the 4-3. Woodley can play DE, I have confidence in that. Keisel might be able to handle the RDE but he would really be average at best. He doesn't have the pass rush skill to be a 4-3 DE. Timmons could play LB in the 4-3. Might be able to play all positions and excel at it. The biggest problem would be Harrison. Where do you put him? He can't play with his hand on the ground in a 4-3. He would be OK there in passing situations. He would just disappear at RDE in a 4-3 in base. You take a probowl player out of his strongest spot and line him up off the LOS. Make him run sideline to sideline. Not a good fit for him at all. This team needs a player overhaul to go to the 4-3.

What's the worst that could happen with a 4-3? The Steelers might lose five games in a row? Three of those to the league's bottom dwellers?

I think Keisel would work out well as a 4-3 DE, IMO...

Especially in a Tampa-2, the DEs need to be athletic and relentless...Keisel is both...


Well said.... :Clap

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
01-04-2010, 10:28 PM
IF the Steelers decided to move to a 4-3, Harrison would be the best fit, in my mind, at SLB...

He's the Steelers best tackler and tougher than hell against the run...

That is a spot that also lends itself to some pass rushing opportunities...

Given the fact that Harrison is like a Romulan cloaking device for offensive holding, perhaps putting him in a position where he won't be held constantly yet still rush the passer (albeit less frequently) would work out for him...

I would agree with that. He won't fit at DE and he doesn't have the quicknes to cover from the backside. That probably would be the best fit for him in a 4-3. I just don't think he is an impact player from that position. Harrisons strength is his leverage and strength engaging bigger OL on the edge. Put him in space to shed...I think he would just be a solid player.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
01-04-2010, 10:34 PM
Going to the 4-3 only creates more issues. We do not have 4-3 personnell. You could try Smith inside but after this injury who knows. I think you take a great player and make him an average player with this move. Still need another DT. Hood & Harris are not inside players on this level right now. Hood "might" get there but I don't see it happening by next year. Farrior is no MLB at this point in his carrer for the 4-3. Woodley can play DE, I have confidence in that. Keisel might be able to handle the RDE but he would really be average at best. He doesn't have the pass rush skill to be a 4-3 DE. Timmons could play LB in the 4-3. Might be able to play all positions and excel at it. The biggest problem would be Harrison. Where do you put him? He can't play with his hand on the ground in a 4-3. He would be OK there in passing situations. He would just disappear at RDE in a 4-3 in base. You take a probowl player out of his strongest spot and line him up off the LOS. Make him run sideline to sideline. Not a good fit for him at all. This team needs a player overhaul to go to the 4-3.

What's the worst that could happen with a 4-3? The Steelers might lose five games in a row? Three of those to the league's bottom dwellers?

I think Keisel would work out well as a 4-3 DE, IMO...

Especially in a Tampa-2, the DEs need to be athletic and relentless...Keisel is both...

Going to a 4-3 doesn't fix the secondary. Keisel doesn't play fast. He plays upright at times and that gets him stoned at the line. Keisel is a very good football player in the support role, which is what 3-4 DL are. Asking him to be a 4-3 DE is asking him to contribute something he hasn't shown in his years in the NFL. He doesn't get to the QB. I would actually say Keisel would be a back-up 4-3 DE on many teams. So that wouldn't help us in my opinion.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
01-04-2010, 10:43 PM
I'll give you relentless on Kiesel, but not athletic. Thinking of Dwight White, LC Greenwood, Ed "Too Tall" Jones, Charles Haley, etc then you're talking athletic. Kiesel would be an average DE in the 4-3; he doesn't pass rush very well, but he is relentless and would get some sacks.

Pappy

IMO, Keisel is possibly too good of an athlete to be plugging gaps in a 3-4...he is tall and rangy and runs REALLY well for a 6'5", 290lb man...he also has a penchant for knocking down passes at the LOS (15 in his four years as a starter) which can only be a good thing for a DE...the Steelers actually worked him out at OLB at times...

I think he would perform better than many think...

We heard Keisel is a great athlete through his whole career...But he doesn't play fast on the field. He moved well on STs early in his career when he was in the 270's. He moves well for a big man and he is a heady player. As far as knocking down passes...I will say this. Probably not the best stat you want to bring to the front. My coaches always would say, "If you can't get to the QB...Put your hands up and knock down the pass." Being a 6'5" DE in a 3-4 makes you a hard obstacle to throw over. Put a 6'5" DE on the edge in a 4-3...Those won't come so frequently.

steelblood
01-04-2010, 11:56 PM
The biggest thing that will determine who goes and who stays will be whether Tomlin takes this window of opportunity to switch to the 4-3 defense. With the total collapse of the defense this season this is the window of opportunity he would need. There will never be a better time and it best fits the players we have.

IMO we will switch so this is how it falls out:

Players leaving: Hampton, Clark and Tyrone Carter. The Steelers will try to keep both Jeff Reed and Wille Parker but at the price the team wants. They will not getting into bidding competition for either. Parker had better pay close attention to what happened with Derrick Ward last year. There is little to no free agent market for RBs, particularly one over 30 with a recent history of injuries. Ward is a much better and younger RB than Parker. FWP should do the right thing and sign for a discount just like Bettis.

Coaches: Arians has taken the offense as far as he can. He should go. With him should go Coach Z. LeBeau should enjoy his HoF induction and also move on and as mentioned stay on as a consultant. Ligashevsky should also go because special teams have been inconsistent. I'd like to see Bobby April too but if Cowher is coaching that is where he is likely to go. Blowing up a coaching staff like this has risks but remember Tomlin inherited these guys and this will be his opportunity to get "his guys" in. It may take a year to get everyone on the same page but we need to consider a step back to take two steps forward.

Coach Z and Ligashevsky were his guys. Those were his two biggest additions. I like Tomlin, but I'm not sure I like his guys.

The 4-3 thing is a possibility, but I don't see it happening. One big reason is Harrison. He is really best suited as a 3-4 OLB. His talents would be wasted as a 4-3 LB. He is too small for 4-3 DE (unless we use him as a 4-3 backer on 1st and 2nd down and then turn him into a nickel pass rushing DE).

skyhawk
01-05-2010, 12:24 AM
No way this team goes to a 4-3. It's not the scheme its the players. Mainly those in the backfield. Changing the pass rush a little bit will help.

Better conditioning is they real key imo. The D is out of gas in the 4th Q. It's shows badly at the end of games. No team is perfect. I fully expect the D coming out next year playing much better and being able to play 60 minutes again, and not just 45.

The mental and physical tiring was evident after the Super Bowl. Call it a SB hangover, I call it lack of conditioning. No player will admit it, but I see it in every 4th Q.

skyhawk
01-05-2010, 12:25 AM
Timmons has freakish quickness. That's a weapon off the edge that I want to see us use more.
.

Timmons looked like he was shot out of a cannon yesterday when he came untouched up the middle and floored White. Granted, he wasn't blocked, but I don't think I've seen a LB shoot a gap that fast.

I was thinking the same thing. But memory reminded me of another #94- Chad Brown in his early days. Freakish athlete.

stlrz d
01-05-2010, 12:35 AM
No way this team goes to a 4-3. It's not the scheme its the players. Mainly those in the backfield. Changing the pass rush a little bit will help.

Better conditioning is they real key imo. The D is out of gas in the 4th Q. It's shows badly at the end of games. No team is perfect. I fully expect the D coming out next year playing much better and being able to play 60 minutes again, and not just 45.

The mental and physical tiring was evident after the Super Bowl. Call it a SB hangover, I call it lack of conditioning. No player will admit it, but I see it in every 4th Q.

No amount of conditioning in the world is going to help a D that deals with a sustained drive, the O goes 3 and out (courtesy of 3 passes out of the empty backfield) and then finds themselves right back on the field a few short minutes later.

skyhawk
01-05-2010, 12:53 AM
No way this team goes to a 4-3. It's not the scheme its the players. Mainly those in the backfield. Changing the pass rush a little bit will help.

Better conditioning is they real key imo. The D is out of gas in the 4th Q. It's shows badly at the end of games. No team is perfect. I fully expect the D coming out next year playing much better and being able to play 60 minutes again, and not just 45.

The mental and physical tiring was evident after the Super Bowl. Call it a SB hangover, I call it lack of conditioning. No player will admit it, but I see it in every 4th Q.

No amount of conditioning in the world is going to help a D that deals with a sustained drive, the O goes 3 and out (courtesy of 3 passes out of the empty backfield) and then finds themselves right back on the field a few short minutes later.

In theory it would difficult. But it's not like the team's TOP was low (32min/game).

And the O had plenty of long drives this season with scores, only to have the D go out and not make a stop and give up a quick TD, especially in the 4th Q.

So I don't buy that.

Oviedo
01-05-2010, 08:53 AM
No way this team goes to a 4-3. It's not the scheme its the players. Mainly those in the backfield. Changing the pass rush a little bit will help.

Better conditioning is they real key imo. The D is out of gas in the 4th Q. It's shows badly at the end of games. No team is perfect. I fully expect the D coming out next year playing much better and being able to play 60 minutes again, and not just 45.

The mental and physical tiring was evident after the Super Bowl. Call it a SB hangover, I call it lack of conditioning. No player will admit it, but I see it in every 4th Q.

No amount of conditioning in the world is going to help a D that deals with a sustained drive, the O goes 3 and out (courtesy of 3 passes out of the empty backfield) and then finds themselves right back on the field a few short minutes later.

The defenses inability to get turnovers and repeatedly letting teams convert third downs is why they were on the field for extended periods of time. It wasn't the fault of the offense.

Everyone is going to have to face the possibility that last season and this season is as good as you are going to get out of James Harrison. The league is not going to enforce holding penalties, i.e. no sacks in last 6 games! If the key to our defense for the next couple of years is a 31+ year old Harrison manhandling 330lb OTs then this defense won't get better. That means the most important thing you need out of the 3-4 defense---pressure on the QB--isn't going to be there. Yes Woodley had a great finish but he will start to get held and it will be ignored too. His success was teams trying to have a RB or TE block him. That won't happen next year.

The inability to sack the QB or force QB into bad throws is why this defense failed. For all the Timmons critics if not for his sacks from the inside LB position this season would have been even worse. He added a dimension we never had there before.

stlrz d
01-05-2010, 09:50 AM
No way this team goes to a 4-3. It's not the scheme its the players. Mainly those in the backfield. Changing the pass rush a little bit will help.

Better conditioning is they real key imo. The D is out of gas in the 4th Q. It's shows badly at the end of games. No team is perfect. I fully expect the D coming out next year playing much better and being able to play 60 minutes again, and not just 45.

The mental and physical tiring was evident after the Super Bowl. Call it a SB hangover, I call it lack of conditioning. No player will admit it, but I see it in every 4th Q.

No amount of conditioning in the world is going to help a D that deals with a sustained drive, the O goes 3 and out (courtesy of 3 passes out of the empty backfield) and then finds themselves right back on the field a few short minutes later.

In theory it would difficult. But it's not like the team's TOP was low (32min/game).

And the O had plenty of long drives this season with scores, only to have the D go out and not make a stop and give up a quick TD, especially in the 4th Q.

So I don't buy that.

It's already been pointed out how ToP is skewed with this team. When we have the ball for 2 mins, give up a return TD, have the ball for another minute and give it up again that skews the ToP and also has the D out there sucking wind again instead of regrouping on the sideline.

Start buyin' it because it's true.

Ovie - I know the inability to stop teams on 3rd downs and the inability to create TOs was a problem. I was pointing out that conditioning wasn't the issue. That's a silly notion and simply a rationalization...a way to "put a finger" on something and wrap up the package with a neat little bow. These guys are highly conditioned, world class athletes. Conditioning wasn't the issue. There were plenty of issues all the way around (O, D and ST) but conditioning wasn't one of them.

feltdizz
01-05-2010, 12:24 PM
It's already been pointed out how ToP is skewed with this team. When we have the ball for 2 mins, give up a return TD, have the ball for another minute and give it up again that skews the ToP and also has the D out there sucking wind again instead of regrouping on the sideline.

Start buyin' it because it's true.

Ovie - I know the inability to stop teams on 3rd downs and the inability to create TOs was a problem. I was pointing out that conditioning wasn't the issue. That's a silly notion and simply a rationalization...a way to "put a finger" on something and wrap up the package with a neat little bow. These guys are highly conditioned, world class athletes. Conditioning wasn't the issue. There were plenty of issues all the way around (O, D and ST) but conditioning wasn't one of them.

umm... doesn't the return TD give the D more time on the sideline to suck oxygen? The return TD's hurt the O much more then the D because they have to go right back out there...

hmmm???

regardless it doesn't hurt the D in the fourth quarter.. you cannot skew 32 minutes of average TOP.

papillon
01-05-2010, 01:20 PM
Steeler fans are so accustomed to the defense bailing out the Steelers that they simply can't wrap their hands around the fact that this year's defense could not play a complete game. Even in a few of the games that they won the defense played poorly, Green Bay and San Diego for sure.

Other offensive coordinators weren't waiting until the 4th quarter to try and make a comeback against the Steelers veteran defenders showed their age and were a step slower than in the first three quarters. They weren't able to get off blocks as well and anything else that goes along with fatigue and age.

Pappy

feltdizz
01-05-2010, 01:44 PM
Steeler fans are so accustomed to the defense bailing out the Steelers that they simply can't wrap their hands around the fact that this year's defense could not play a complete game. Even in a few of the games that they won the defense played poorly, Green Bay and San Diego for sure.

Other offensive coordinators weren't waiting until the 4th quarter to try and make a comeback against the Steelers veteran defenders showed their age and were a step slower than in the first three quarters. They weren't able to get off blocks as well and anything else that goes along with fatigue and age.

Pappy

They blame Timmons...
Logans lack of KR's for TD's...
Jeff Reeds tackling...
BA's everything...

like you said.. even when we won it was a battle. The onside kick should have been the most obvious though..

stlrz d
01-05-2010, 09:02 PM
It's already been pointed out how ToP is skewed with this team. When we have the ball for 2 mins, give up a return TD, have the ball for another minute and give it up again that skews the ToP and also has the D out there sucking wind again instead of regrouping on the sideline.

Start buyin' it because it's true.

Ovie - I know the inability to stop teams on 3rd downs and the inability to create TOs was a problem. I was pointing out that conditioning wasn't the issue. That's a silly notion and simply a rationalization...a way to "put a finger" on something and wrap up the package with a neat little bow. These guys are highly conditioned, world class athletes. Conditioning wasn't the issue. There were plenty of issues all the way around (O, D and ST) but conditioning wasn't one of them.

umm... doesn't the return TD give the D more time on the sideline to suck oxygen? The return TD's hurt the O much more then the D because they have to go right back out there...

hmmm???

regardless it doesn't hurt the D in the fourth quarter.. you cannot skew 32 minutes of average TOP.

Since you missed part of what I typed, here it is again...with the part you missed made obvious for you.

When we have the ball for 2 mins, give up a return TD, have the ball for another minute and give it up again

And it's a well known fact that it's easier to press and uptempo on offense than defense. It's easier to act than to react. O linemen like to keep going, D linemen like to slow things down. Getting the O on the field asap is a good thing, not a bad thing.

feltdizz
01-05-2010, 09:55 PM
[quote="stlrz d":1zuuiq9g]

It's already been pointed out how ToP is skewed with this team. When we have the ball for 2 mins, give up a return TD, have the ball for another minute and give it up again that skews the ToP and also has the D out there sucking wind again instead of regrouping on the sideline.

Start buyin' it because it's true.

Ovie - I know the inability to stop teams on 3rd downs and the inability to create TOs was a problem. I was pointing out that conditioning wasn't the issue. That's a silly notion and simply a rationalization...a way to "put a finger" on something and wrap up the package with a neat little bow. These guys are highly conditioned, world class athletes. Conditioning wasn't the issue. There were plenty of issues all the way around (O, D and ST) but conditioning wasn't one of them.

umm... doesn't the return TD give the D more time on the sideline to suck oxygen? The return TD's hurt the O much more then the D because they have to go right back out there...

hmmm???

regardless it doesn't hurt the D in the fourth quarter.. you cannot skew 32 minutes of average TOP.

Since you missed part of what I typed, here it is again...with the part you missed made obvious for you.

When we have the ball for 2 mins, give up a return TD, have the ball for another minute and give it up again

And it's a well known fact that it's easier to press and uptempo on offense than defense. It's easier to act than to react. O linemen like to keep going, D linemen like to slow things down. Getting the O on the field asap is a good thing, not a bad thing.[/quote:1zuuiq9g]

3-2=1 extra minute of chill time for the D if the other team scores... how does that have the D sucking wind? Wouldn't 2 minutes and kick coverage or punt coverage mean even less time to rest amd sucking more wind? Just sayin.. I see how the TOP is in our favor but yu linked it to the D sucking wind...

OL like to keep going? Right after scoring they go to rest then have to get right back up? I don't think that is good... Our guys are huge...

stlrz d
01-05-2010, 10:05 PM
You're absolutely right. Whatever was I thinking?

:roll:

feltdizz
01-05-2010, 10:16 PM
You're absolutely right. Whatever was I thinking?

:roll:

I don't know? That's why I asked...