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View Full Version : BA is not the problem and should return



feltdizz
12-29-2009, 02:24 PM
After some thought... I guess I am still a BA apologist...LOL!!!
Here's why:

- we put up points and TOP is pretty good.
- we have had leads in 12 of 15 games in the fourth quarter and the D has blown 5 of those games.
- while numbers are for fantasy games the stats are damn good and we were winning most of our games until the stank D or ST's blew it.
- how many points does BA have to put up to win games now? is it really his fault we can't keep a 10 point lead more than 1 minute?

Now I hate the empty backfield sack formation and the shotgun on 3rd down...
But the guy has kept us in a ton of games without key players and a young and often hurt OL

half of Bens success is his sandlot style.. So what does it matter if we have better situational play calling? Half the time it's dirt in the grass and when t doesn't work and some people blame Ben we get the "Ben is Ben". I don't think a few more runs or effiency in the redzone can correct the real problem this year.... The stinking D!!!

The D is so bad this year it shows all of our weaknesses. Ben is great but if he has an off game and throws an INT or we have a fumble the D would be good for a stop or would get us the ball back. Our D won. a ton of games last year or gave Ben extra chances to put points on the board. We also need to stop acting like more points would win games this year.. It just gave more chances for the D to suck.

At first I was pizzed at Ben for throwing out stats with our record being so bad... But if our D stepped up just one time in the fourth quarter in a few games against the worst teams in football we are 11-3 and the board is happy.

Imagine what we would be right now if BA was as bad as they say he is on here... With our greal legendary DC's execution we would be 4-11. Sarcasm people... but the way people ignore our D and blame the OC for our woes is classic lazy board chatter.

Djfan
12-29-2009, 02:30 PM
Fix the D and BA is still lame. How about the great redzone offense we have?

He sucks. He might not go, but if I were the decision maker he would.

cruzer8
12-29-2009, 02:59 PM
Where's the stat for situational play calling?

That's what so many of us seem to be concerned with. He just doesn't seem to understand that. Add in the empty backfield and and "for sale" signs planted in his front yard are completely justified in my opinion.

Shawn
12-29-2009, 03:09 PM
I went through some of the stats of our QB, RB and 3 WRs...not to mention our TE. They are an elite group. I'm not sure how anyone could argue against that. We have a franchise QB...a guy I wouldn't give up for anyone. We have 3 good-great WRs. Ward is still playing top notch ball, Holmes is clipping off 15+ per catch and our rookie is looking great at 18+ ypc. Mendenhall has stepped up and proven he is a great RB...4.6 ypc is better than every running back in the top 5 other than Johnson. Miller is always solid. As a group...they are well rounded and terrific. The OL gets way too much heat...overall they have played better than average this year despite what some think.

Even with all of this we continue to stuggle in the red zone. We continue to be predictable. We continue to leave points on the field...game in and game out. BAs play calling is horrific at best. We have a good O despite BA...not because of BA.

Oviedo
12-29-2009, 03:10 PM
BA has done what he needed to do...transition this offense ionto one that can match the other elite teams in the league. He has probably taken this as far as he can and a fresh perspective coming in to fine tune it would not be a bad thing. The obvious wildcard is the relationship that he and Ben have. That alone might save his job.

SteelCrazy
12-29-2009, 03:38 PM
We'll see how good Arians is with the all the offers that come pouring in for a Head Coaching position. With a talent like this, what team could go wrong?

feltdizz
12-29-2009, 03:41 PM
Fix the D and BA is still lame. How about the great redzone offense we have?

He sucks. He might not go, but if I were the decision maker he would.

I would love better red zone efficiency... But what good is 10 more points a game if the D can't stop KC? Mendenhall dropped a perfect TD pass... it's football and the players had to execute too. Ben takes a few sacks or misses on a throw high... It happens.

Again I ask... If we scored 2 TD's instead of kicking field goals last game we score 8 more points... We still have to kick off and our D still has to stop the ther team. everyone who screams for more points act like the other team will call the exact same plays. They will adjust too you know...

If our D was playing at a high rate or at a decent level then you BA bashers would have a point. However the D is so bad and the 4th qtr point level is so high by other teams it's crazy to suggest more points would fix our team.

msp26505
12-29-2009, 03:49 PM
Even with all of this we continue to stuggle in the red zone. We continue to be predictable. We continue to leave points on the field...game in and game out. BAs play calling is horrific at best. We have a good O despite BA...not because of BA.

Agree completely.

We have the tools (with the possible exception of OL)...just not the brains at OC to be a good offense.

RuthlessBurgher
12-29-2009, 03:52 PM
Even with all of this we continue to stuggle in the red zone. We continue to be predictable. We continue to leave points on the field...game in and game out. BAs play calling is horrific at best. We have a good O despite BA...not because of BA.

Agree completely.

We have the tools (with the possible exception of OL)...just not the brains at OC to be a good offense.

Oh, come on now. I think we can all agree that we have a tool at O.C. as well. :lol:

feltdizz
12-29-2009, 03:56 PM
We'll see how good Arians is with the all the offers that come pouring in for a Head Coaching position. With a talent like this, what team could go wrong?

how good can any OC be if the D is giving up 3 TD's to the Raiders in the 4th qtr?
how good can any OC look if KC marches on you? If the Lions carve up the D to tie the game?

Jeez... It's like the stat about our D blowing 5 leads doesn't exist. What games are you watching?
..and if I'm an owner I wouldn't be too quick to hire an OC who has Ben, Brady, Peyton or Brees... My thinking is the best QB's in football will make them look like geniuses... The best OC's are the ones who make lemonade out of lemons.

i doubt McDaniels is the HC in Denver if he didn't work magic with Cassel. Whiz looks great... With Warner... but we have yet to see if he can work magic with Leinart.

feltdizz
12-29-2009, 04:06 PM
Even with all of this we continue to stuggle in the red zone. We continue to be predictable. We continue to leave points on the field...game in and game out. BAs play calling is horrific at best. We have a good O despite BA...not because of BA.

Agree completely.

We have the tools (with the possible exception of OL)...just not the brains at OC to be a good offense.

Oh, come on now. I think we can all agree that we have a tool at O.C. as well. :lol:
All BA jokes aside... Do you truly believe a better OC would win more games with our ST's and D play this year?

I seriously doubt it... The other teams we envy this year are stopping teams on D. However the Saints are looking like the aint's now that they need a win and the Colts look like the Rams without Peyton the other day.

We don't blame St Lebeau... we can't blame Ben... Can't blame the OL or the drops or lack of excution... Yet we can always blame the BA. What a joke.

I don't like everything about are offense but I wish we demanded a fraction of what we expect from BA when the D takes the field in the fourth with a lead.

We weren't blowing teams out a few years ago... We just had a D that played defense late in games. We also had the best pulling guard and a RB who was 300 pounds but light on his feet. Lol

msp26505
12-29-2009, 04:06 PM
We'll see how good Arians is with the all the offers that come pouring in for a Head Coaching position. With a talent like this, what team could go wrong?

how good can any OC be if the D is giving up 3 TD's to the Raiders in the 4th qtr?
how good can any OC look if KC marches on you? If the Lions carve up the D to tie the game?

Jeez... It's like the stat about our D blowing 5 leads doesn't exist. What games are you watching?
..and if I'm an owner I wouldn't be too quick to hire an OC who has Ben, Brady, Peyton or Brees... My thinking is the best QB's in football will make them look like geniuses... The best OC's are the ones who make lemonade out of lemons.

i doubt McDaniels is the HC in Denver if he didn't work magic with Cassel. Whiz looks great... With Warner... but we have yet to see if he can work magic with Leinart.

I think we all agree that the D has been the MAIN problem.

But most Steeler fans probably also understand that big stats and quick strike capability, while fun at times, are not as efficient as balance and clock control in maintaining leads and winning consistently.

If it weren't for this quick-strike O, we would have been unable to come back a couple of times this year. However, if the O were more consistently able to milk clock, teams would not have had the chances to come back that we saw, either.

I would love to have THIS offense with a few additions:

-More commitment to the run more of the time, including a fullback...especially when they have the lead.
-Better OL play overall (though they have shown improvement this year, they are middle of the pack at best).
-Better situational play calling.

Iron Shiek
12-29-2009, 04:10 PM
We'll see how good Arians is with the all the offers that come pouring in for a Head Coaching position. With a talent like this, what team could go wrong?

how good can any OC be if the D is giving up 3 TD's to the Raiders in the 4th qtr?
how good can any OC look if KC marches on you? If the Lions carve up the D to tie the game?

Jeez... It's like the stat about our D blowing 5 leads doesn't exist. What games are you watching?
..and if I'm an owner I wouldn't be too quick to hire an OC who has Ben, Brady, Peyton or Brees... My thinking is the best QB's in football will make them look like geniuses... The best OC's are the ones who make lemonade out of lemons.

i doubt McDaniels is the HC in Denver if he didn't work magic with Cassel. Whiz looks great... With Warner... but we have yet to see if he can work magic with Leinart.

I think we all agree that the D has been the MAIN problem.

But most Steeler fans probably also understand that big stats and quick strike capability, while fun at times, are not as efficient as balance and clock control in maintaining leads and winning consistently.

If it weren't for this quick-strike O, we would have been unable to come back a couple of times this year. However, if the O were more consistently able to milk clock, teams would not have had the chances to come back that we saw, either.

I would love to have THIS offense with a few additions:

-More commitment to the run more of the time, including a fullback...especially when they have the lead.
-Better OL play overall (though they have shown improvement this year, they are middle of the pack at best).
-Better situational play calling.

However when this happens, people kill BA for turtle ball. Everyone wants different things from the offense, I just want someone who knows what to do when the situation commands some flexibility. I don't think BA has that quality.

And I definitely agree the defense has royally screwed us all season.

feltdizz
12-29-2009, 04:21 PM
MSP... I agree... I would love to run the ball more.. but it doesn't matter this hear cause our D stinks and as we have seen... regardless of TOP if the other team gets a kickoff and/or 3 plays they can score on us this year. Weare actually defending an onside kick with a 2 point lead. If that doesn't convince the bad word LeBeau apologist nothing will.

With a D I agree with all points you stated but I have to add... when exactly is the situational play calling better or worse if you have a QB who is obviously better or prefers sandlot ball.

Ben is 60% sandlot, hold the ball make something happen, so that leaves 40% and half the time those plays work. So people are bashing 20% IMO... Pretty low if you ask me. We all scream what the hell on some play calls but when they work people say "all Ben baby" amd when they don't work we scream BA sucks.

Iron Shiek
12-29-2009, 04:24 PM
I always applaud BA when a nice quick slant is run.

No, literally. I stand up in my living room and give him an ovation.

RuthlessBurgher
12-29-2009, 04:27 PM
Even with all of this we continue to stuggle in the red zone. We continue to be predictable. We continue to leave points on the field...game in and game out. BAs play calling is horrific at best. We have a good O despite BA...not because of BA.

Agree completely.

We have the tools (with the possible exception of OL)...just not the brains at OC to be a good offense.

Oh, come on now. I think we can all agree that we have a tool at O.C. as well. :lol:
All BA jokes aside... Do you truly believe a better OC would win more games with our ST's and D play this year?

I seriously doubt it... The other teams we envy this year are stopping teams on D. However the Saints are looking like the aint's now that they need a win and the Colts look like the Rams without Peyton the other day.

We don't blame St Lebeau... we can't blame Ben... Can't blame the OL or the drops or lack of excution... Yet we can always blame the BA. What a joke.

I don't like everything about are offense but I wish we demanded a fraction of what we expect from BA when the D takes the field in the fourth with a lead.

We weren't blowing teams out a few years ago... We just had a D that played defense late in games. We also had the best pulling guard and a RB who was 300 pounds but light on his feet. Lol

Poor special teams play cost us games this year.
Poor defensive play cost us games this year.
Poor offensive play cost us games this year.
They are all culpable.

It seemed like when one phase started to play well, the other phases started lagging behind. We still have not seen a single game in which all 3 phases played well in the same game.

If the special teams hadn't allowed so many returns for TD's (or if Skippy could kick a FG in Soldier Field), we'd have more wins.

If the defense didn't blow leads in the 4th quarter against teams like K.C. or Oakland, we'd have more wins.

If the offense didn't call twice as many pass plays on a cold, windy day in Cleveland, or if we called more plays that suited our 3rd string QB's strengths in Baltimore, we'd have more wins.

The offense has been able to amass some impressive offensive statistics that mean nothing when they don't result in wins. In our losses, we scored only 14 against Chicago, 20 and 12 against Cincinnati, 24 against Kansas City, 17 against Baltimore, 24 against Oakland, and 6 against Cleveland. Points matter most, and the points we scored in those games were not enough to win.

And you know I am incapable of putting BA jokes aside...we don't need an OC that is able to make lemonade out of lemons. We need one that is able to make lemonade out of water, sugar, and Country Time Lemonade mix.

feltdizz
12-29-2009, 04:27 PM
However when this happens, people kill BA for turtle ball. Everyone wants different things from the offense, I just want someone who knows what to do when the situation commands some flexibility. I don't think BA has that quality.

Besides the empty backfield set and shotgun on 3rd and 1... I don't understand some of the quality needed because like you said... When it doesn't work BA is bashed but when it works it's in spite of BA. If our D was playing decent I could see the frustration but this year people are focusing on BA because it hurts to blame a legendary DC.

Iron Shiek
12-29-2009, 04:35 PM
However when this happens, people kill BA for turtle ball. Everyone wants different things from the offense, I just want someone who knows what to do when the situation commands some flexibility. I don't think BA has that quality.

Besides the empty backfield set and shotgun on 3rd and 1... I don't understand some of the quality needed because like you said... When it doesn't work BA is bashed but when it works it's in spite of BA. If our D was playing decent I could see the frustration but this year people are focusing on BA because it hurts to blame a legendary DC.

Its not just that though felt...I saw someone else mention the "delivery" of some plays in a different thread (forgive me I can't remember who the poster was). That makes a huge difference when we do go to "turtle" ball/run the clock out mode, not doing the same hand off to Ben's right side and it goes straight up the middle. Mixing in tosses, or misdirection counters would go a long way to faking defenses out. How about that play where Hines or Randle el went in motion and it was always a threat to be a hand off to them but then it was a toss out the other way, or sometimes they did give it to the WR, or sometimes they faked and screened the other way. I know it was different OC, but we have a lot of weapons on the offense. Have an imagination and use them for pete sakes.

feltdizz
12-29-2009, 04:44 PM
When you score over 20 points against KC and Oakland you should win. End of discussion on those 2 games.. lol

I guess a better question or point is this... After 15 games... Or after the 7 losses... Who's heads are hanging the lowest after them. Besides the Browns and the second Cincy game I think ts all on the D. We lost 5 games where the other team had to march the lentgh of the field and the D never showed up. That isn't situational play calling that's Defense. I also blame Sweed for that damn drop but honestly...

We weren't getting marched on by offensive juggernauts either.

feltdizz
12-29-2009, 04:54 PM
However when this happens, people kill BA for turtle ball. Everyone wants different things from the offense, I just want someone who knows what to do when the situation commands some flexibility. I don't think BA has that quality.

Besides the empty backfield set and shotgun on 3rd and 1... I don't understand some of the quality needed because like you said... When it doesn't work BA is bashed but when it works it's in spite of BA. If our D was playing decent I could see the frustration but this year people are focusing on BA because it hurts to blame a legendary DC.

Its not just that though felt...I saw someone else mention the "delivery" of some plays in a different thread (forgive me I can't remember who the poster was). That makes a huge difference when we do go to "turtle" ball/run the clock out mode, not doing the same hand off to Ben's right side and it goes straight up the middle. Mixing in tosses, or misdirection counters would go a long way to faking defenses out. How about that play where Hines or Randle el went in motion and it was always a threat to be a hand off to them but then it was a toss out the other way, or sometimes they did give it to the WR, or sometimes they faked and screened the other way. I know it was different OC, but we have a lot of weapons on the offense. Have an imagination and use them for pete sakes.

ok... So we mix in those plays... How does that help our bunk azzz D? While those plays were mor creative we also had a D who made plays and stopped teams who were terrible on offense.

We were never a high scoring team and we always kicked FG's with Cowher but our D kept us in games and gave the O more chances to score. I would love to score every time we have the ball and to also see a FB but we have a 100 million dollar QB and he gets what he wants and its time
to stop focusing on the offense. I wish we/tomlin and everyone else would focus on the damn D and stop complaining about more fire power when the D is getting blown to pieces.

We don't need more ammo we need more armour. What good is more bullets if you are standing out in the open without a bulletproof vest?

Iron Shiek
12-29-2009, 05:09 PM
However when this happens, people kill BA for turtle ball. Everyone wants different things from the offense, I just want someone who knows what to do when the situation commands some flexibility. I don't think BA has that quality.

Besides the empty backfield set and shotgun on 3rd and 1... I don't understand some of the quality needed because like you said... When it doesn't work BA is bashed but when it works it's in spite of BA. If our D was playing decent I could see the frustration but this year people are focusing on BA because it hurts to blame a legendary DC.

Its not just that though felt...I saw someone else mention the "delivery" of some plays in a different thread (forgive me I can't remember who the poster was). That makes a huge difference when we do go to "turtle" ball/run the clock out mode, not doing the same hand off to Ben's right side and it goes straight up the middle. Mixing in tosses, or misdirection counters would go a long way to faking defenses out. How about that play where Hines or Randle el went in motion and it was always a threat to be a hand off to them but then it was a toss out the other way, or sometimes they did give it to the WR, or sometimes they faked and screened the other way. I know it was different OC, but we have a lot of weapons on the offense. Have an imagination and use them for pete sakes.

ok... So we mix in those plays... How does that help our bunk azzz D? While those plays were mor creative we also had a D who made plays and stopped teams who were terrible on offense.

We were never a high scoring team and we always kicked FG's with Cowher but our D kept us in games and gave the O more chances to score. I would love to score every time we have the ball and to also see a FB but we have a 100 million dollar QB and he gets what he wants and its time
to stop focusing on the offense. I wish we/tomlin and everyone else would focus on the damn D and stop complaining about more fire power when the D is getting blown to pieces.

We don't need more ammo we need more armour. What good is more bullets if you are standing out in the open without a bulletproof vest?

I get you man. I don't think there is any one answer for this, like Ruthless outlined. And I've already agreed with you that the defense has sucked all year. Going forward though, personnel/scheme decisions will ultimately help the D, personnel is already there for the O. Scheme for the O concerns me. I am highly skeptical that we can continue this pace that the offense is on without re-calibrating a bit on the scheme side. And I don't see BA doing that. I think Oviedo is the one that says BA took us about as far as we can go on O. I tend to agree with that thinking. I don't think it gets any better than this and it would be stretch for anyone to believe that we can top this, let alone out do it (and that is not even taking into account our poor red zone "strategy/execution").

RuthlessBurgher
12-29-2009, 05:13 PM
However when this happens, people kill BA for turtle ball. Everyone wants different things from the offense, I just want someone who knows what to do when the situation commands some flexibility. I don't think BA has that quality.

Besides the empty backfield set and shotgun on 3rd and 1... I don't understand some of the quality needed because like you said... When it doesn't work BA is bashed but when it works it's in spite of BA. If our D was playing decent I could see the frustration but this year people are focusing on BA because it hurts to blame a legendary DC.

Its not just that though felt...I saw someone else mention the "delivery" of some plays in a different thread (forgive me I can't remember who the poster was). That makes a huge difference when we do go to "turtle" ball/run the clock out mode, not doing the same hand off to Ben's right side and it goes straight up the middle. Mixing in tosses, or misdirection counters would go a long way to faking defenses out. How about that play where Hines or Randle el went in motion and it was always a threat to be a hand off to them but then it was a toss out the other way, or sometimes they did give it to the WR, or sometimes they faked and screened the other way. I know it was different OC, but we have a lot of weapons on the offense. Have an imagination and use them for pete sakes.

ok... So we mix in those plays... How does that help our bunk azzz D? While those plays were mor creative we also had a D who made plays and stopped teams who were terrible on offense.

We were never a high scoring team and we always kicked FG's with Cowher but our D kept us in games and gave the O more chances to score. I would love to score every time we have the ball and to also see a FB but we have a 100 million dollar QB and he gets what he wants and its time
to stop focusing on the offense. I wish we/tomlin and everyone else would focus on the damn D and stop complaining about more fire power when the D is getting blown to pieces.

We don't need more ammo we need more armour. What good is more bullets if you are standing out in the open without a bulletproof vest?

Well, the 338 points that we have scored is 13th in the league.

The 300 points that have been scored against us is tied for 12th in the league.

And we should also consider that an abnormally high percentage of those 300 points given up were not given up by our defense...returns for TD's on kickoffs, punts, interceptions, and fumbles are figured in to that total.

No one is excusing the defense here. No one is excusing the special teams either. No one is excusing the offense. They are all at fault. People that do nothing but scream "Arians sucks!" or "Fire Ligashefsky!" or "What about LeBeau?" are just looking for one scapegoat to pin the blame on. There isn't one reason that this season has been disappointing. There are numerous reasons, and there is plenty of blame to go around.

Djfan
12-29-2009, 05:23 PM
Strange. What I'm hearing is that it's ok for BA to call stupid plays because the D and ST suck. I don't get it.

Yeah the D is aweful this year at times, but how does that affect lousey O planning?

Strange.

Steeler Mafia
12-29-2009, 05:24 PM
Well, the 338 points that we have scored is 13th in the league.

The 300 points that have been scored against us is tied for 12th in the league.


....and they say this team doesn't have balance. :Beer

Starlifter
12-29-2009, 06:05 PM
3rd and 1 in cleveland. were we in shotgun because we didn't want to run the ball or because we knew we couldn't run the ball?

also, it seems to me the vast majority of the 'brilliant' plays the Steelers make involve Ben improvising. How often do we look at something and think - great design, great execution, innovative, etc?

sorry, but while I recognize our issues this year are defense and special teams - I think the offense is just as culpable with it's inability to sustain long, time-consuming game-ending drives. BA is holding us back. We could be better.

SteelAbility
12-29-2009, 06:51 PM
The reason for the offensive stats and yard production is Ben, not BA. It is happening DESPITE BA, not BECAUSE of BA. Ben has shown that he can pretty much move the ball between the 20s at will (hence the yardage stats).

Add to that what many have said ... very poor situational play-calling and poor RZ O. If you look at our points per yard, you'll see we aren't that good ... because of this very thing ... poor RZ O. Apparently BA hasn't figured out that what works between the 20s loses its effectiveness in the RZ.

Here's a simple example of very poor OC leadership. First Ravens game. We got the ball to our own 42 (or so) with about 40 seconds left to play and one timeout. We let the clock run down and hand off to Carey Davis up the middle with about 17 or 18 seconds left. GENIUS!!! Why didn't I think of that!? :roll: No attempt to score whatsoever. A run up the middle in that field position risks a fumble with the other team in position to kick a FG or at least try a hail Mary to the EZ. The reward (with Carey Davis running) is about 5 yards forward with no time left on the clock to do anything. If we can get a pass to one of our speedy WRs and get about 20-25 yards downfield, we have a shot at a FG. Boy 3 points sure could have come in handy at the end dontchathink??

Twice in that game Dixon ran the ball. Both times were absolutely electrifying. One was called back for a holding that didn't really influence the play. The other was the TD. Ya think maybe even two to three more run plays for Dixon could have kept the Ravens' D more honest and opened up the passing game a bit, swinging things toward a W? Just maybe? Sheesh! It doesn't take a d*mn PHD to figure that out.

But I'm glad we protected our 3rd string QB from getting a hang-nail. That was totally worth it.

This is the type of crap that is driving us crazy.

feltdizz
12-29-2009, 07:04 PM
So... The record breaking 4th quarter points our defense has given up isn't the problem..the offense that gets the lead in the 4th quarter is the problem.

I'm not saying Arians is a genius or he can't improve... However we won a SB last year, our production s pretty damn good yet our D has lost 5 games in the fourth and the O is the problem? Please pass what you are smoking.. I want a hit. How much further do you guys expect tuis O to go? 40 points? 50 points a game?

We have no INT's by our CB's.. Troy has more splash plays in 5 games then the whole backfield all season. I don't understand how 5 to 10 plays we critique on offense would change our season when the D is tuuuuurrrrible.

MaxAMillion
12-29-2009, 08:22 PM
I go back and forth on this. I have come to accept the fact that the NFL is now a passing league. This year, the Super Bowl winner will probably be a pass first team. The league seems to be trending towards top QB dominating the game. I think Arians does a good job with the passing game considering the OL that he has to use. I don't think people realize how few teams try and play with a bunch of middle round picks along the OL. The Steelers have only used one first round pick on an OL since Faneca was a rookie. That is not smart and Colbert needs to take some heat for it. However, I also realize that Arians does not adjust very well to defenses and he seems willing to ignore the running game to a fault.

I would put Arians firing way below the needs of a new special teams coach and a new OL coach. I won't be terribly upset if Arians comes back (Ben seems to love him), but I won't cry if he is replaced. I do think Arians seems to be the catch all with fans for all the Steelers problems and that doesn't seem fair.

Flasteel
12-29-2009, 08:39 PM
Strange. What I'm hearing is that it's ok for BA to call stupid plays because the D and ST suck. I don't get it.

Yeah the D is aweful this year at times, but how does that affect lousey O planning?

Strange.

This is the mentality which is so maddening to me. Everyone wants to look at the "biggest" problem we have or look at other issues in concert and it somehow excuses the flawed philosophies and playcalling of BA. There are a lot of factors which have contributed to our downfall this year, but the BA problem has been around since 2007. Hey, compared to our talent-starved secondary, this is a comparatively new issue. It is none the less, time to remedy ourselves of this handicap by kicking him to the curb.

I just worry that Ben's outspoken support of BA will keep him around. It didn't do him much good with Plax, but that was Cowher and he was a rook back then.

Mister Pittsburgh
12-29-2009, 09:00 PM
Fix the D and BA is still lame. How about the great redzone offense we have?

He sucks. He might not go, but if I were the decision maker he would.

I would love better red zone efficiency... But what good is 10 more points a game if the D can't stop KC? Mendenhall dropped a perfect TD pass... it's football and the players had to execute too. Ben takes a few sacks or misses on a throw high... It happens.

Again I ask... If we scored 2 TD's instead of kicking field goals last game we score 8 more points... We still have to kick off and our D still has to stop the ther team. everyone who screams for more points act like the other team will call the exact same plays. They will adjust too you know...

If our D was playing at a high rate or at a decent level then you BA bashers would have a point. However the D is so bad and the 4th qtr point level is so high by other teams it's crazy to suggest more points would fix our team.

10 more points a game and we are undefeated.

I don't give a crap if Ben threw for 6,000 yards.....we are what, 15th in scoring? Points win games and we have a lot of elite players on offense. Lots of 1st rounders on that side of the ball. All that money and draft investment should equate to much, much better than middle of the league when it comes to points.

BATMAN
12-29-2009, 10:14 PM
Where's the stat for situational play calling?

That's what so many of us seem to be concerned with. He just doesn't seem to understand that. Add in the empty backfield and and "for sale" signs planted in his front yard are completely justified in my opinion.


Very well said.


In addition to all that realize that, BA is a lousy coach with good to great players, these guys would do well with practically any coach. Yes they make big stats and stuff with BA but, stats are for losers.
At the end of a players career, what would a player rather show off , his stats or his rings ?


When Parker complained about the lack of rushing our offense did, what was Tomlins reply ? It was something to the affect, " I walk by SB trophies in the lobby, not rushing titles or records. " Something to that affect.
Will Tomlin now change his tune and be proud to walk by a list of stats rather than a championship trophy ?

We have done well on offense with busted plays that Ben seems to mend. Put practically any other QB in our offense and BA will really be exposed.

We win despite Arians. Arians, a coach that never once got mentioned for possible advancement.

We are stuck with the guy so it seems.

Oviedo
12-29-2009, 10:16 PM
The reason for the offensive stats and yard production is Ben, not BA. It is happening DESPITE BA, not BECAUSE of BA. Ben has shown that he can pretty much move the ball between the 20s at will (hence the yardage stats).

Add to that what many have said ... very poor situational play-calling and poor RZ O. If you look at our points per yard, you'll see we aren't that good ... because of this very thing ... poor RZ O. Apparently BA hasn't figured out that what works between the 20s loses its effectiveness in the RZ.

Here's a simple example of very poor OC leadership. First Ravens game. We got the ball to our own 42 (or so) with about 40 seconds left to play and one timeout. We let the clock run down and hand off to Carey Davis up the middle with about 17 or 18 seconds left. GENIUS!!! Why didn't I think of that!? :roll: No attempt to score whatsoever. A run up the middle in that field position risks a fumble with the other team in position to kick a FG or at least try a hail Mary to the EZ. The reward (with Carey Davis running) is about 5 yards forward with no time left on the clock to do anything. If we can get a pass to one of our speedy WRs and get about 20-25 yards downfield, we have a shot at a FG. Boy 3 points sure could have come in handy at the end dontchathink??

Twice in that game Dixon ran the ball. Both times were absolutely electrifying. One was called back for a holding that didn't really influence the play. The other was the TD. Ya think maybe even two to three more run plays for Dixon could have kept the Ravens' D more honest and opened up the passing game a bit, swinging things toward a W? Just maybe? Sheesh! It doesn't take a d*mn PHD to figure that out.

But I'm glad we protected our 3rd string QB from getting a hang-nail. That was totally worth it.

This is the type of crap that is driving us crazy.

I guess that means the defense is successful because of Troy DESPITE LeBeau. Seems like LeBeau's scheme is a sham without Troy

BATMAN
12-29-2009, 10:33 PM
Without Troy, without Smith, with an aging Farrior. We now have William Gay that doesn't hold a candle to McFadden. Larry Foote wasn't the athlete that Timmons is but, he sure was in the right spot all the time it seems.
Our offense pretty much remianed the same if it didn't actually have personale impovements. BA has probably one of the best group of guys in the NFL and he still can't get points on the board.

feltdizz
12-29-2009, 11:04 PM
Where's the stat for situational play calling?

That's what so many of us seem to be concerned with. He just doesn't seem to understand that. Add in the empty backfield and and "for sale" signs planted in his front yard are completely justified in my opinion.


Very well said.


In addition to all that realize that, BA is a lousy coach with good to great players, these guys would do well with practically any coach. Yes they make big stats and stuff with BA but, stats are for losers.
At the end of a players career, what would a player rather show off , his stats or his rings ?


When Parker complained about the lack of rushing our offense did, what was Tomlins reply ? It was something to the affect, " I walk by SB trophies in the lobby, not rushing titles or records. " Something to that affect.
Will Tomlin now change his tune and be proud to walk by a list of stats rather than a championship trophy ?

We have done well on offense with busted plays that Ben seems to mend. Put practically any other QB in our offense and BA will really be exposed.

We win despite Arians. Arians, a coach that never once got mentioned for possible advancement.

We are stuck with the guy so it seems.

so the 5 yards a carry for Mend is all Ben? The slants and the deep passes off of play action are all Ben? Funny how we won a SB last year after FWP's statement but yeah... It's all Ben.

Ben Is great no doubt but the sacks he takes when he is tryng to make plays are forgivable... Yet every negative is on Arians.

We had a 3rd string QB with no NFL starts waltz into the endzone and also throw a TD pass but it's all Arians fault. No blame on the stout Steeler D that used to punish teams but now falls over each other like Barnum and Bailey.

feltdizz
12-29-2009, 11:10 PM
Fix the D and BA is still lame. How about the great redzone offense we have?

He sucks. He might not go, but if I were the decision maker he would.

I would love better red zone efficiency... But what good is 10 more points a game if the D can't stop KC? Mendenhall dropped a perfect TD pass... it's football and the players had to execute too. Ben takes a few sacks or misses on a throw high... It happens.

Again I ask... If we scored 2 TD's instead of kicking field goals last game we score 8 more points... We still have to kick off and our D still has to stop the ther team. everyone who screams for more points act like the other team will call the exact same plays. They will adjust too you know...

If our D was playing at a high rate or at a decent level then you BA bashers would have a point. However the D is so bad and the 4th qtr point level is so high by other teams it's crazy to suggest more points would fix our team.

10 more points a game and we are undefeated.

I don't give a crap if Ben threw for 6,000 yards.....we are what, 15th in scoring? Points win games and we have a lot of elite players on offense. Lots of 1st rounders on that side of the ball. All that money and draft investment should equate to much, much better than middle of the league when it comes to points.

if we score 10 more points a game the other OC is more aggressive and draws up the same play that exposes Gay and Carter... You don't get it do you... It's like going back in time in back to the future.. If we change a few plays and make them successful TD's the other team changes their game plan too..

You cannot hide from the elephant in the room which is the LeBeau DB's in the 4th qtr.

feltdizz
12-29-2009, 11:17 PM
Strange. What I'm hearing is that it's ok for BA to call stupid plays because the D and ST suck. I don't get it.

Yeah the D is aweful this year at times, but how does that affect lousey O planning?

Strange.

This is the mentality which is so maddening to me. Everyone wants to look at the "biggest" problem we have or look at other issues in concert and it somehow excuses the flawed philosophies and playcalling of BA. There are a lot of factors which have contributed to our downfall this year, but the BA problem has been around since 2007.

so.... If you have a leaky faucet you should ignore the new hole In the pipe that causes extensive water damage and addrss the leaky faucet first even though the faucet still works?

I don't see how ignoring the biggest problem helps our team. We won a SB with the small problem... We can't beat 3 of the worst teams with the biggest problem and struggled to beat the Lions as well. How does a great OC hide a terrible secondary and aging defense?

stlrz d
12-29-2009, 11:46 PM
MSP... I agree... I would love to run the ball more.. but it doesn't matter this hear cause our D stinks and as we have seen... regardless of TOP if the other team gets a kickoff and/or 3 plays they can score on us this year. Weare actually defending an onside kick with a 2 point lead. If that doesn't convince the bad word LeBeau apologist nothing will.

With a D I agree with all points you stated but I have to add... when exactly is the situational play calling better or worse if you have a QB who is obviously better or prefers sandlot ball.

Ben is 60% sandlot, hold the ball make something happen, so that leaves 40% and half the time those plays work. So people are bashing 20% IMO... Pretty low if you ask me. We all scream what the hell on some play calls but when they work people say "all Ben baby" amd when they don't work we scream BA sucks.

I love when people post percentages for something you know there is no way in hell they actually researched and/or tracked.

:lol:

Oh yeah...BA needs to get on with his life's work. ;)

feltdizz
12-30-2009, 12:21 AM
MSP... I agree... I would love to run the ball more.. but it doesn't matter this hear cause our D stinks and as we have seen... regardless of TOP if the other team gets a kickoff and/or 3 plays they can score on us this year. Weare actually defending an onside kick with a 2 point lead. If that doesn't convince the bad word LeBeau apologist nothing will.

With a D I agree with all points you stated but I have to add... when exactly is the situational play calling better or worse if you have a QB who is obviously better or prefers sandlot ball.

Ben is 60% sandlot, hold the ball make something happen, so that leaves 40% and half the time those plays work. So people are bashing 20% IMO... Pretty low if you ask me. We all scream what the hell on some play calls but when they work people say "all Ben baby" amd when they don't work we scream BA sucks.

I love when people post percentages for something you know there is no way in hell they actually researched and/or tracked.

:lol:

Oh yeah...BA needs to get on with his life's work. ;)

it's obviously hypothetical and followed by IMO... You always say stats don't tell the whole
story. You think Ben is perfect and defend him to the death... I would love to know how much situational play calling is the reason for our demise. Just your opinion not factual data... Life is too short to research that stuff.

I'm done bashing the offense and have moved on to the D. Magnifying 5 to 6 plays on offense that didn't work makes no sense when our D is this bad. More points will not solve our defensive problems.

stlrz d
12-30-2009, 12:30 AM
Stats don't tell the whole story...but if you're gonna throw stats out there to make your point (and the "imo" thing in this case is weak) then there should be some actual backing behind them.

BA needs to get on with his life's work.

BATMAN
12-30-2009, 12:37 AM
I look at it this way, if our offense was a car it would be a very expensive elite race car. The trouble with our race car of an offense, we have BA with his Cinderella permit trying to drive the car/offense.

feltdizz
12-30-2009, 12:44 AM
Stats don't tell the whole story...but if you're gonna throw stats out there to make your point (and the "imo" thing in this case is weak) then there should be some actual backing behind them.

BA needs to get on with his life's work.
Yeahhhhhh....

BATMAN
12-30-2009, 12:50 AM
I wonder why BA never gets mentioned for a possible head coaching job ?

Captain Lemming
12-30-2009, 01:46 AM
While I get and agree with the overall point this example is horrible.



Here's a simple example of very poor OC leadership. First Ravens game. We got the ball to our own 42 (or so) with about 40 seconds left to play and one timeout. We let the clock run down and hand off to Carey Davis up the middle with about 17 or 18 seconds left. GENIUS!!! Why didn't I think of that!? :roll: No attempt to score whatsoever. A run up the middle in that field position risks a fumble with the other team in position to kick a FG or at least try a hail Mary to the EZ. The reward (with Carey Davis running) is about 5 yards forward with no time left on the clock to do anything. If we can get a pass to one of our speedy WRs and get about 20-25 yards downfield, we have a shot at a FG. Boy 3 points sure could have come in handy at the end dontchathink??

Plenty of teams would do what we did. ESPECIALLY with an inexperienced QB. "risks a fumble?"
A pick 6 is far more likely.


Twice in that game Dixon ran the ball. Both times were absolutely electrifying. One was called back for a holding that didn't really influence the play. The other was the TD. Ya think maybe even two to three more run plays for Dixon could have kept the Ravens' D more honest and opened up the passing game a bit, swinging things toward a W? Just maybe? Sheesh! It doesn't take a d*mn PHD to figure that out.

Not surprised AT ALL he did not call more runs. If we had a capable backup option, I could understand. Dixon is pretty fragile as it is. Running him a bunch would be aa terrible idea.

Mister Pittsburgh
12-30-2009, 08:41 AM
Fix the D and BA is still lame. How about the great redzone offense we have?

He sucks. He might not go, but if I were the decision maker he would.

I would love better red zone efficiency... But what good is 10 more points a game if the D can't stop KC? Mendenhall dropped a perfect TD pass... it's football and the players had to execute too. Ben takes a few sacks or misses on a throw high... It happens.

Again I ask... If we scored 2 TD's instead of kicking field goals last game we score 8 more points... We still have to kick off and our D still has to stop the ther team. everyone who screams for more points act like the other team will call the exact same plays. They will adjust too you know...

If our D was playing at a high rate or at a decent level then you BA bashers would have a point. However the D is so bad and the 4th qtr point level is so high by other teams it's crazy to suggest more points would fix our team.

10 more points a game and we are undefeated.

I don't give a crap if Ben threw for 6,000 yards.....we are what, 15th in scoring? Points win games and we have a lot of elite players on offense. Lots of 1st rounders on that side of the ball. All that money and draft investment should equate to much, much better than middle of the league when it comes to points.

if we score 10 more points a game the other OC is more aggressive and draws up the same play that exposes Gay and Carter... You don't get it do you... It's like going back in time in back to the future.. If we change a few plays and make them successful TD's the other team changes their game plan too..

You cannot hide from the elephant in the room which is the LeBeau DB's in the 4th qtr.

Ever think by being up 10 more points it totally changes how our D could play? If the threat of the run is gone, the LB's could pin their ears back and blitz, blitz, blitz.

I agree, our D has been weak this season.....our secondary blows.....but our offense could help them out by blowing out inferior teams. Our glorious O hung 2 FG on the Browns and one TD and one FG on the Raiders until the final minutes.

stlrz d
12-30-2009, 09:44 AM
[quote=Djfan]Fix the D and BA is still lame. How about the great redzone offense we have?

He sucks. He might not go, but if I were the decision maker he would.

I would love better red zone efficiency... But what good is 10 more points a game if the D can't stop KC? Mendenhall dropped a perfect TD pass... it's football and the players had to execute too. Ben takes a few sacks or misses on a throw high... It happens.

Again I ask... If we scored 2 TD's instead of kicking field goals last game we score 8 more points... We still have to kick off and our D still has to stop the ther team. everyone who screams for more points act like the other team will call the exact same plays. They will adjust too you know...

If our D was playing at a high rate or at a decent level then you BA bashers would have a point. However the D is so bad and the 4th qtr point level is so high by other teams it's crazy to suggest more points would fix our team.

10 more points a game and we are undefeated.

I don't give a crap if Ben threw for 6,000 yards.....we are what, 15th in scoring? Points win games and we have a lot of elite players on offense. Lots of 1st rounders on that side of the ball. All that money and draft investment should equate to much, much better than middle of the league when it comes to points.

if we score 10 more points a game the other OC is more aggressive and draws up the same play that exposes Gay and Carter... You don't get it do you... It's like going back in time in back to the future.. If we change a few plays and make them successful TD's the other team changes their game plan too..

You cannot hide from the elephant in the room which is the LeBeau DB's in the 4th qtr.

Ever think by being up 10 more points it totally changes how our D could play? If the threat of the run is gone, the LB's could pin their ears back and blitz, blitz, blitz.

I agree, our D has been weak this season.....our secondary blows.....but our offense could help them out by blowing out inferior teams. Our glorious O hung 2 FG on the Browns and one TD and one FG on the Raiders until the final minutes.[/quote:2smioswv]

*ding*

NorthCoast
12-30-2009, 10:20 AM
I guess if you are happy with the 13th ranked offense in the league in yards and scoring, and the 22nd ranked rushing O with Mendenhall as your RB, and the juggernaut offense scoring a total of 6 pts against a very poor Browns team, then yes, BA should stay.

Do you realize at least 3 losses were possible wins if the Offense could have held onto the ball for another 1 minute?

feltdizz
12-30-2009, 11:00 AM
If we are up 10 points and can't hold that lead... Why do people suggest scoring 10 more points in close losses would somehow transform our D?

Ding!

We were up 28 on the Chargers and our D couldn't hold the lead. Oh... Or did the O score to fast? You guys are moving the goalposts. We don't score enough, we score to fast, the D needs 10 more points to succeed, the D can't succeed when we are up 10.
Whether up 26-16 or 20-10 our D isn't stopping teams. There is no magic number that we can hit that guarantees our D will succeed. We pinned our ears back and finally got to Flacco when the score was tied but when we were up 10 we were manhandled. Hell, if Mason doesn't Sweed or the ravens didn't have a meltdown who knows... But I guess the offense would have been to blame.

feltdizz
12-30-2009, 11:03 AM
I guess if you are happy with the 13th ranked offense in the league in yards and scoring, and the 22nd ranked rushing O with Mendenhall as your RB, and the juggernaut offense scoring a total of 6 pts against a very poor Browns team, then yes, BA should stay.

Do you realize at least 3 losses were possible wins if the Offense could have held onto the ball for another 1 minute?

do you realize 4 wins were possible if our D stopped teams ranked below us offensively? Teams who drove over 80 yards converting at least 2 3rd and longs?

BURGH86STEEL
12-30-2009, 11:05 AM
If we are up 10 points and can't hold that lead... Why do people suggest scoring 10 more points in close losses would somehow transform our D?

Ding!

We were up 28 on the Chargers and our D couldn't hold the lead. Oh... Or did the O score to fast? You guys are moving the goalposts. We don't score enough, we score to fast, the D needs 10 more points to succeed, the D can't succeed when we are up 10.
Whether up 26-16 or 20-10 our D isn't stopping teams. There is no magic number that we can hit that guarantees our D will succeed. We pinned our ears back and finally got to Flacco when the score was tied but when we were up 10 we were manhandled. Hell, if Mason doesn't Sweed or the ravens didn't have a meltdown who knows... But I guess the offense would have been to blame.

I will comment more on this BA and Ben subject in a minute.

A lack of scoring 10 more points did not seem to hurt last season.

RuthlessBurgher
12-30-2009, 11:06 AM
I'll use the huge font with all caps and bold face this time to hopefully get the message across.

NO ONE IS BLAMING ONLY THE OFFENSE!

WE ALL REALIZE THE DEFENSE IS POROUS!

THE SPECIAL TEAMS SUCK THIS YEAR TOO!

THERE IS PLENTY OF BLAME TO GO AROUND!

ikestops85
12-30-2009, 11:27 AM
I'll use the huge font with all caps and bold face this time to hopefully get the message across.

NO ONE IS BLAMING ONLY THE OFFENSE!

WE ALL REALIZE THE DEFENSE IS POROUS!

THE SPECIAL TEAMS SUCK THIS YEAR TOO!

THERE IS PLENTY OF BLAME TO GO AROUND!

What did you say? I couldn't hear you. :moon :lol:

feltdizz
12-30-2009, 11:28 AM
I'll use the huge font with all caps and bold face this time to hopefully get the message across.

NO ONE IS BLAMING ONLY THE OFFENSE!

WE ALL REALIZE THE DEFENSE IS POROUS!

THE SPECIAL TEAMS SUCK THIS YEAR TOO!

THERE IS PLENTY OF BLAME TO GO AROUND!

ok... but if this thread frustrates you to the point of screaming you should move on...

BURGH86STEEL
12-30-2009, 11:45 AM
One problem is people only like to point out situations where the offense failed. There were plenty of situations where they succeeded this season. We can go around the league and find coaches that make questionable situational decisions in every game. People complained about Cowher decisions all the time. No one will every be happy unless the plays work.

Overall, the offense was better this season then last season. There are some areas they need to work improve. Red zone and short yardage situations are two of those areas. It is difficult to have red zone success when the players don't execute. There were X's amount of times they failed in the area of execution. Penalties, poor decision making, bad coaching decisions(this is the hardest to gage), and holding the ball too long contributed to the lack of scoring in the red zone. There were plays there to be made in the red zone. There were times the defensive players had chances to make plays to end games but they failed.

The bottom line on this offense is Ben. The offense or lack of offense is tied to how well Ben performs. Ben probably the biggest reason the offense is inconsistent. I love the people that state that when the offense performs it's all Ben. When the offense does not perform it's BA fault.

I don't know if changing OC's will change the offense much. People may not like it but the offense is designed around Ben. They call and practice formations and plays he likes to run. Ben should know this offense like the back of his hand. He should not be hesitant to the point he holds onto as long as he does at times.

I think we saw that BA can design plays around the players he has. He did a good job in a limited amount of prep time getting Dixon ready. He did a nice job covering up Dixon's inexperience by using the run game to put Dixon in good situations.

BA is far from perfect. I don't think he is as bad as some make him out to be. I can care less if they keep him or fire him. I believe the same problems will resurface no matter who they bring in as OC. That means look no further then the QB about the design of the offense. The game plan, pass plays, formations, run plays, and so on start and end with Ben. He's had a lot of success with the way he's done things. I am not sure if he will be willing to change for or to accommodate a new OC. He might think, who is this guy to tell me how to do things. I already won 2 SB's.

After all that said, I still find it hard to believe that people want to blame the offense for the defenses inability to make stops on game winning drives. I guess those people fail to realize that most games will be close. Especially in the playoffs. The offense scored when it counted last season. The defense failed to stop scores when it counted this year. That is one huge difference between last season and this season.

NorthCoast
12-30-2009, 11:46 AM
If we are up 10 points and can't hold that lead... Why do people suggest scoring 10 more points in close losses would somehow transform our D?

Ding!

We were up 28 on the Chargers and our D couldn't hold the lead. Oh... Or did the O score to fast? You guys are moving the goalposts. We don't score enough, we score to fast, the D needs 10 more points to succeed, the D can't succeed when we are up 10.
Whether up 26-16 or 20-10 our D isn't stopping teams. There is no magic number that we can hit that guarantees our D will succeed. We pinned our ears back and finally got to Flacco when the score was tied but when we were up 10 we were manhandled. Hell, if Mason doesn't Sweed or the ravens didn't have a meltdown who knows... But I guess the offense would have been to blame.

I did not say score more points. I said held onto the ball for another minute. We are a big-play offense. Yes, it is exciting. But we struggle mightily when teams make us grind it out for 60 minutes.

We are 4th in the league in TOP (avg. 31.58/g) but we are 18th in number of offensive plays per game (63.2). We are also 17th ranked in converting 3rd downs at 38.9%. We are tied with KC at 19th in red zone scoring percentage (an even 50%).

So our offensive stats in some cases are gaudy, but there are definitely things that can be improved on and one is maintaining control of the ball.

BURGH86STEEL
12-30-2009, 11:51 AM
I'll use the huge font with all caps and bold face this time to hopefully get the message across.

NO ONE IS BLAMING ONLY THE OFFENSE!

WE ALL REALIZE THE DEFENSE IS POROUS!

THE SPECIAL TEAMS SUCK THIS YEAR TOO!

THERE IS PLENTY OF BLAME TO GO AROUND!

No one simply blames the offense. They simply want to blame BA.

SteelCzar76
12-30-2009, 11:52 AM
A lack of scoring 10 more points did not seem to hurt last season.


Because Troy and Diesel (Aaron) were on the field doing their jobs protecting the rest of the Db's, Larry Foote was here doing his job against the run and Harrison was playing like a "Maniac". In fact overall it was one of those "twice every decade" type defensive seasons as a whole. And henceforth one cannot expect it every year.

Bottom line,...at some point your going to need an offense capable of not only consistenly scoring points,.. but controling the clock as well. As opposed to the,... "inconsistent sexy big run here and there, QB run around like a buffoon and throw it to someone when coverage breaks down so that they can pick up some nice YAC until you stall in the redzone" worthless stat machine offense. :lol:

BURGH86STEEL
12-30-2009, 12:11 PM
A lack of scoring 10 more points did not seem to hurt last season.


Because Troy and Diesel (Aaron) were on the field doing their jobs protecting the rest of the Db's, Larry Foote was here doing his job against the run and Harrison was playing like a "Maniac". In fact overall it was one of those "twice every decade" type defensive seasons as a whole. And henceforth one cannot expect it every year.

Bottom line,...at some point your going to need an offense capable of not only consistenly scoring points,.. but controling the clock as well. As opposed to the,... "inconsistent sexy big run here and there, QB run around like a buffoon and throw it to someone when coverage breaks down so that they can pick up some nice YAC until you stall in the redzone" worthless stat machine offense. :lol:

Steelers TOP is 3rd in the league. That's not to bad. The clock can be controlled passing the ball. The best (Jets) rushing offense is ranked 11th in TOP. The 2nd best rushing offense is ranked 27th in TOP.

How many ppg should the Steelers offense score with inconsistent offensive players? No OC or DC can over come inconsistent play that happens on the field.

Djfan
12-30-2009, 12:45 PM
Hey Felt:

If I had a leaky faucet (according to this analogy it leaked for three years because I put a Sears handle on a Home Depot fixture) AND a ruptured pipe.....

I WOULD FIX BOTH!!!!

Then I would be embarassed that I waited three years to fix the smaller leak.

Everyone join me in a big DUH!!

feltdizz
12-30-2009, 01:39 PM
Hey Felt:

If I had a leaky faucet (according to this analogy it leaked for three years because I put a Sears handle on a Home Depot fixture) AND a ruptured pipe.....

I WOULD FIX BOTH!!!!

Then I would be embarassed that I waited three years to fix the smaller leak.

Everyone join me in a big DUH!!
Of course you want to fix both... but you would definitely fix the busted pipe first if you had 2 choose between the 2. Your house could get a great appraisal even with a leaky faucet... But you can't hide the water gushing all around the foundation.

Like burghsteel wrote... Many people focus on the busted plays or plays that fail on offense and take the success as a given...

But the D? People don't want to focus on their plays... We don't break down the blown coverage... We just gloss over it and blame an injury or talk about St. Lebeau's past success. We had a 3rd string QB in a game and people are still complaining about BA like he had Ben at the helm.

Djfan
12-30-2009, 01:54 PM
I just disagree with the part about ignoring the defensive problems. I have been saying this for a few weeks now.

Still, the BA debacle has been going on for three (almost) seasons.

BURGH86STEEL
12-30-2009, 02:03 PM
I just disagree with the part about ignoring the defensive problems. I have been saying this for a few weeks now.

Still, the BA debacle has been going on for three (almost) seasons.

Well, you can tie the QB into that debacle debate. I am not sure you can separate the two. Especially when the OC caters to the QB. He designs plays that Ben likes. Ben has a say in the offensive game planning. One thing leads to another when the game plan is tied to the QB or one player. When that player does not play well, the offense struggles. The same can be said for any of the other top QB's in the league.

Mister Pittsburgh
12-30-2009, 02:04 PM
The problem is that people expect our defense to be tops in the league every year and are used to a crappy offense. Now that the D is having a down year, why can't the offense carry them? It tires a defense out when you go 3 and out for 3 quarters of football and in one quarter put up 3 touchdowns.

I can't find it online, but does anyone know where you could find where you could check out team scoring per quarter for the season?

feltdizz
12-30-2009, 02:07 PM
If we are up 10 points and can't hold that lead... Why do people suggest scoring 10 more points in close losses would somehow transform our D?

Ding!

We were up 28 on the Chargers and our D couldn't hold the lead. Oh... Or did the O score to fast? You guys are moving the goalposts. We don't score enough, we score to fast, the D needs 10 more points to succeed, the D can't succeed when we are up 10.
Whether up 26-16 or 20-10 our D isn't stopping teams. There is no magic number that we can hit that guarantees our D will succeed. We pinned our ears back and finally got to Flacco when the score was tied but when we were up 10 we were manhandled. Hell, if Mason doesn't Sweed or the ravens didn't have a meltdown who knows... But I guess the offense would have been to blame.

I did not say score more points. I said held onto the ball for another minute. We are a big-play offense. Yes, it is exciting. But we struggle mightily when teams make us grind it out for 60 minutes.

We are 4th in the league in TOP (avg. 31.58/g) but we are 18th in number of offensive plays per game (63.2). We are also 17th ranked in converting 3rd downs at 38.9%. We are tied with KC at 19th in red zone scoring percentage (an even 50%).

So our offensive stats in some cases are gaudy, but there are definitely things that can be improved on and one is maintaining control of the ball.
Maybe I'm missing something... If we are fourth in the league in TOP how does more
plays within that time frame change the TOP?

Does more plays mean more chances to score or more chances to kill the clock with bad situational playcalling? Do we really need to be number one in every offensive statistic for our D to succeed this year? I really don't understand how TOP can be an tweaked to hide deficiencies with TOP.

I agree our 4th quarter grinds could be better but we don't have a Bettis anymore... A toss outside to more was a bad call, running up the middle is bad, running left and right is bad too... and passing the ball is the wost of all because incompletions stop the clock. If Ben is the go to guy how is BA to blame? He can't force Ben to throw the ball any earlier or force him to check down...

When we try to impose our will in the fourth BA haters say he should go for the kill. If we go for the kill then we put our D in a bad position. I'm sorry but football is 3 phases and no one can hide the weakest links for a whole season. Our D is the weakest link right now and no team can control a whole fouth qtr on offense for half a season. Nor should they. Do your job defense and I bet you our team rolls next year or this postseason if we are lucky enough to get there and Troy returns.

feltdizz
12-30-2009, 02:18 PM
The problem is that people expect our defense to be tops in the league every year and are used to a crappy offense. Now that the D is having a down year, why can't the offense carry them? It tires a defense out when you go 3 and out for 3 quarters of football and in one quarter put up 3 touchdowns.

I can't find it online, but does anyone know where you could find where you could check out team scoring per quarter for the season?

this year our D is crappy. We are giving up a record number of points in the fourth. Our D isn't tired.. They just suck this year. No way we are 4th in TOP but our D is gassed. Our D is tired because they are getting beat for 15 to 30 yard pass plays on every 3rd down.

All the other years our O was much worse and we still had a great D. The main problem is Gay who has a 75% completion rate and Carter who can't run with a snail. However we are content to let Gay start... It's not that the D is tired... They are missing tackles like crazy and fundamentals just aren't there this year. I don't buy that crap about TOP because no matter how arly we score TD's this year the D is letting teams march right back down the field to get 7.

I don't think we have ever gone more then 2 possssions without giving up points when we have had a double dIgit lead.

Djfan
12-30-2009, 02:24 PM
I just disagree with the part about ignoring the defensive problems. I have been saying this for a few weeks now.

Still, the BA debacle has been going on for three (almost) seasons.

Well, you can tie the QB into that debacle debate. I am not sure you can separate the two. Especially when the OC caters to the QB. He designs plays that Ben likes. Ben has a say in the offensive game planning. One thing leads to another when the game plan is tied to the QB or one player. When that player does not play well, the offense struggles. The same can be said for any of the other top QB's in the league.



I've been on that bandwagon for a while, too. In fact, it was the kindergarten responses to posts about this that caused my absense for a while. I came back and saw mature discussion of it, so I logged in again.

RuthlessBurgher
12-30-2009, 02:30 PM
I just disagree with the part about ignoring the defensive problems. I have been saying this for a few weeks now.

Still, the BA debacle has been going on for three (almost) seasons.

Well, you can tie the QB into that debacle debate. I am not sure you can separate the two. Especially when the OC caters to the QB. He designs plays that Ben likes. Ben has a say in the offensive game planning. One thing leads to another when the game plan is tied to the QB or one player. When that player does not play well, the offense struggles. The same can be said for any of the other top QB's in the league.



I've been on that bandwagon for a while, too. In fact, it was the kindergarten responses to posts about this that caused my absense for a while. I came back and saw mature discussion of it, so I logged in again.

Welcome back, doodiehead. :P

Djfan
12-30-2009, 02:34 PM
Welcome back, doodiehead. :P

That's the nicest thing you've ever called me!

stlrz d
12-31-2009, 12:52 AM
BA needs to get on with his life's work.

Doodieheads.

winwithd
12-31-2009, 01:05 AM
Maybe this was stated in one of the previous 67 posts under this topic, but I did not see it in the dozen or so that I read. It is so obvious to me that I can't believe it wasn't said. So this may be a repeat, but...

Feltdizz asked what good it would do to score 10 more points if the defense can't stop KC. We would probably be 15-0 right now. Red zone efficiency is huge and has been a killer for us all year. Even eight more points a game would have us 15-0. Turning two FGs to TDs is 8 points and either way we still only kick off once after each score. Getting 7 instead of 3 does not give the other team more chances to score.

BA has not made any changes (that I can think of) in his approach to the red zone even though his approach obviously hasn't worked too well. His maddening stubbornness with empty backfield was one of the reasons we only had 6 points against Cleveland. He seems totally unwilling to scrap something when it doesn't work. If I owned a business I COULD NOT imagine keeping someone who was too arrogant to acknowledge that his methods were not working and was unwilling to change.

stlrz d
12-31-2009, 08:42 AM
Lets not forget the emotional letdown to a team (the entire team) when you get 3 instead of 7.

BA...life's work...get to it....

feltdizz
12-31-2009, 10:40 AM
Lets not forget the emotional letdown to a team (the entire team) when you get 3 instead of 7.

BA...life's work...get to it....
emotions? Wow!!!!!! Thanks, all this time I thought ST's and the D sucked after TD's but now I find out they were so overjoyed they couldn't contain themselves or the other team.

This is pure proof of fans making excuses to blame BA.

feltdizz
12-31-2009, 10:57 AM
Maybe this was stated in one of the previous 67 posts under this topic, but I did not see it in the dozen or so that I read. It is so obvious to me that I can't believe it wasn't said. So this may be a repeat, but...

Feltdizz asked what good it would do to score 10 more points if the defense can't stop KC. We would probably be 15-0 right now. Red zone efficiency is huge and has been a killer for us all year. Even eight more points a game would have us 15-0. Turning two FGs to TDs is 8 points and either way we still only kick off once after each score. Getting 7 instead of 3 does not give the other team more chances to score.

BA has not made any changes (that I can think of) in his approach to the red zone even though his approach obviously hasn't worked too well. His maddening stubbornness with empty backfield was one of the reasons we only had 6 points against Cleveland. He seems totally unwilling to scrap something when it doesn't work. If I owned a business I COULD NOT imagine keeping someone who was too arrogant to acknowledge that his methods were not working and was unwilling to change.
Your name is winwithD? Yet you ignore the D in the equation. Your middle paragraph is confusing. I agree if we score 8 more points AND the D stopped anyone we would be 13-2... But my point all along is the D can't stop anyone... You could very well say IF the D made one stop in the 4th... just one... We are 13-2.

Now one stop buy a D is much easier then 10 more points and praying for 2 more defensive stops. Every team would be in great shape if they knew the final score then said... 10 more points. Our D has admitted they aren't doing their part. Like you said, we still have to kick off.

papillon
12-31-2009, 11:56 AM
I'll chime in with my opinion (probably not popular here) but, here goes...

The offense lacked killer instinct early when it could have put teams away. Whether it be from dropped passes, untimely penalties, plays not executed correctly, bad audibles or poor play calls, the offense had many chances to put teams away and didn't.

The defense was good for three quarters this year and then melted down in the 4th quarter and gave the Steelers the proverbial snatching defeat from the jaws of victory slogan.

The special teams gave up big plays after the Steelers scored points and negated any momentum that may have been garnered by scoring.

The offense performed admirably late in games handing the defense leads time after time only to see them give back points to the opponent.

The onside kick in thge Green Bay game and the 3rd and 11 pass late in the Raven game are both proof that Mike Tomlin does not believe that the defense can stop another team's offense. With a sound defense and decent special teams you kick the ball deep, make a tackle and play defense. With a sound defense on 3rd and 11 the other team out of timeouts or down to 1 (I forget) you run the ball, punt and play defense.

There's blame everywhere, but, clearly the offense was called on to win games this year rather than the defense and by and large they provided the necessary points to secure a win. The defense was sieve-like too many times this season.

I've stated this many times, I may not like his offense, but they moved the ball and played well enough more often than not for the Steelers to be successful. If Arians stays, he stays, the offense will be good and hopefully better early and in the red zone. If he goes, that's fine as well, but, some defensive coaches should see the door as well, they failed as often (if not more) than the offense.

The Special Education Teams is a no brainer, open the door and show Ligashesky his way to it.

Pappy

NorthCoast
12-31-2009, 12:25 PM
Might as well add another $0.02 to the thread.

Our offense is ranked 13th in scoring with an average of 22.5/game. But what about last year when our strength of schedule was considered ridiculously difficult and we played several stout defenses and high powered offenses? We averaged 22.7/game which happened to also be 13th in the NFL. In other words, this offense made zero progress moving up the scoring charts with what can be argued was a substantially easier schedule than last season. To me, that is underperformance or at the least playing to the level of competition.

Has the defense helped? No. We are ranked 12th in scoring allowed at 20/game (mind you, that is not all that horrible). Last season, the defense allowed an incredibly good 14.9 pts/game putting them at No. 2 behind the Titans.

As someone else mentioned, do we really need to have the defense play to last year's level to win consistently?

feltdizz
12-31-2009, 12:25 PM
I agree with pretty much everything Pappy said... But I think a new OC would set Ben back so I doubt it happens.

The crazy thing...most of the BA bashers also claim this is now a "passing league" so the smashmouth is gone... Yet anytime BA is defended those same fans claim we should run more...
I agree we lack the killer instinct when up 10.. but that also implies passing the ball and that goes back to burning clock and player execution, not BA.

This is the first year I have ever heard getting a lead late in the 4th is a bad thing for our team. Times are changing I guess...

papillon
12-31-2009, 12:34 PM
I agree with pretty much everything Pappy said... But I think a new OC would set Ben back so I doubt it happens.

The crazy thing...most of the BA bashers also claim this is now a "passing league" so the smashmouth is gone... Yet anytime BA is defended those same fans claim we should run more...
I agree we lack the killer instinct when up 10.. but that also implies passing the ball and that goes back to burning clock and player execution, not BA.

This is the first year I have ever heard getting a lead late in the 4th is a bad thing for our team. Times are changing I guess...

The NFL is changing more than we realize in all likelihood. I'd be curious if the NFL took a poll of the fans how they would vote on the current state of the NFL. That is, do most fans want to see pass after pass after pass or would they like to see rule changes to give defensive backs a better chance and thus reintroducing a strong running game back into the fold.

Except for Minnesota, Carolina and the Titans do any other teams have a strong running attack that they can lean on? Cincy? Baltimore?

Pappy

feltdizz
12-31-2009, 12:40 PM
Might as well add another $0.02 to the thread.

Our offense is ranked 13th in scoring with an average of 22.5/game. But what about last year when our strength of schedule was considered ridiculously difficult and we played several stout defenses and high powered offenses? We averaged 22.7/game which happened to also be 13th in the NFL. In other words, this offense made zero progress moving up the scoring charts with what can be argued was a substantially easier schedule than last season. To me, that is underperformance or at the least playing to the level of competition.

Has the defense helped? No. We are ranked 12th in scoring allowed at 20/game (mind you, that is not all that horrible). Last season, the defense allowed an incredibly good 14.9 pts/game putting them at No. 2 behind the Titans.

As someone else mentioned, do we really need to have the defense play to last year's level to win consistently?

great point.. But if our D can hold good teams to 14.9 why can't they hold bad teams to a similar number... I'm pretty sure the teams we played this year outside of Cleveland have had decent defenses. Oakland is good on D but bad on O.. I expect our O to struggle against Oakland but not our D.

Most teams blow out KC and Oakland because they stop their pontent offenses and get turnovers.

I completely agree on the last Cleveland game. That was embarrassing offensively. However, more then not we have put up enough points to win 4 more games. Last year our D was winning games. This year all that was asked was one stop in the 4th against the worst offenses in football.

feltdizz
12-31-2009, 12:53 PM
I agree with pretty much everything Pappy said... But I think a new OC would set Ben back so I doubt it happens.

The crazy thing...most of the BA bashers also claim this is now a "passing league" so the smashmouth is gone... Yet anytime BA is defended those same fans claim we should run more...
I agree we lack the killer instinct when up 10.. but that also implies passing the ball and that goes back to burning clock and player execution, not BA.

This is the first year I have ever heard getting a lead late in the 4th is a bad thing for our team. Times are changing I guess...

The NFL is changing more than we realize in all likelihood. I'd be curious if the NFL took a poll of the fans how they would vote on the current state of the NFL. That is, do most fans want to see pass after pass after pass or would they like to see rule changes to give defensive backs a better chance and thus reintroducing a strong running game back into the fold.

Except for Minnesota, Carolina and the Titans do any other teams have a strong running attack that they can lean on? Cincy? Baltimore?

Pappy

I'm pretty sure Dallas, Giants, Sam Diego AZ when Wells was/is healthy, Miami, Texans...even the Pats are getting decent ground production although they are pass heavy.

Let me add... The Giants are another team who suffers from a terrible defensive backfield...

I'm not saying we need more run then pass... My point was those who say it's a passing league will also blame BA for not running.. Then turn around and say small ball if he runs.

There are some fans who hate BA everytime a play doesn't work... Yet they praise everyone in the stadium but BA when the O scores...

NorthCoast
12-31-2009, 01:00 PM
I agree with pretty much everything Pappy said... But I think a new OC would set Ben back so I doubt it happens.

The crazy thing...most of the BA bashers also claim this is now a "passing league" so the smashmouth is gone... Yet anytime BA is defended those same fans claim we should run more...
I agree we lack the killer instinct when up 10.. but that also implies passing the ball and that goes back to burning clock and player execution, not BA.

This is the first year I have ever heard getting a lead late in the 4th is a bad thing for our team. Times are changing I guess...

The NFL is changing more than we realize in all likelihood. I'd be curious if the NFL took a poll of the fans how they would vote on the current state of the NFL. That is, do most fans want to see pass after pass after pass or would they like to see rule changes to give defensive backs a better chance and thus reintroducing a strong running game back into the fold.

Except for Minnesota, Carolina and the Titans do any other teams have a strong running attack that they can lean on? Cincy? Baltimore?

Pappy

Unfortunately this is not true either. It is only our perception as Steeler fans.

2009
Avg team rush total: 1740 (116 yds/team/game) (15 games played)

2008
Avg team rush total: 1855 (116 yds/tm/gm)

2007
Avg team rush total: 1775 (111 yds/tm/gm)

2006
Avg team rush total: 1877 (117.3/tm/gm)

2005
Avg team rush total: 1799.5 (112.5 /tm/gm)

The Steelers have rushing ranks of:

2004: 2nd
2005: 5th
2006: 10th
2007: 3rd
2008: 20th
2009: 22nd (current)

So it is certainly our offense that is changing but not necessarily league-wide. Is this a good thing? Not sure, because we have one Superbowl with a low ranking rush and this season looking bleak. I think the jury is still out on this one.

papillon
12-31-2009, 01:23 PM
I agree with pretty much everything Pappy said... But I think a new OC would set Ben back so I doubt it happens.

The crazy thing...most of the BA bashers also claim this is now a "passing league" so the smashmouth is gone... Yet anytime BA is defended those same fans claim we should run more...
I agree we lack the killer instinct when up 10.. but that also implies passing the ball and that goes back to burning clock and player execution, not BA.

This is the first year I have ever heard getting a lead late in the 4th is a bad thing for our team. Times are changing I guess...

The NFL is changing more than we realize in all likelihood. I'd be curious if the NFL took a poll of the fans how they would vote on the current state of the NFL. That is, do most fans want to see pass after pass after pass or would they like to see rule changes to give defensive backs a better chance and thus reintroducing a strong running game back into the fold.

Except for Minnesota, Carolina and the Titans do any other teams have a strong running attack that they can lean on? Cincy? Baltimore?

Pappy

Unfortunately this is not true either. It is only our perception as Steeler fans.

2009
Avg team rush total: 1740 (116 yds/team/game) (15 games played)

2008
Avg team rush total: 1855 (116 yds/tm/gm)

2007
Avg team rush total: 1775 (111 yds/tm/gm)

2006
Avg team rush total: 1877 (117.3/tm/gm)

2005
Avg team rush total: 1799.5 (112.5 /tm/gm)

The Steelers have rushing ranks of:

2004: 2nd
2005: 5th
2006: 10th
2007: 3rd
2008: 20th
2009: 22nd (current)

So it is certainly our offense that is changing but not necessarily league-wide. Is this a good thing? Not sure, because we have one Superbowl with a low ranking rush and this season looking bleak. I think the jury is still out on this one.

Yea, thanks for taking the time to do a bit of research. I wonder what the rushing stats were in the 6 years prior to those, if they were greater or lesser league wide? Maybe, the sampling you have is from the new pass first offensive mantra?

Pappy

Mister Pittsburgh
12-31-2009, 01:39 PM
We need to utilize Heath, Spaeth, Mendenhall, and the WR into some short passing game playcalls...screens, 10yds and in type patterns. Seems the only pass pattern we have that isn't 10 yards or more down the field is the stay pattern in the bunch formation.

Mix this shorter passing game, especially the quality designed screens, with the longer passing game we have going on, and we might have something. Get a real FB to mix into the run game. Get more creative in the redzone. I have mentioned 50 times on there that I don't understand having a pass catching TE the size of Spaeth and never throwing to him. Teams are going to cover Heath. Spaeth is almost an unknown weapon we can sneak in a couple times a game.

Wonder if McHugh would have helped our running game this season?

feltdizz
12-31-2009, 01:41 PM
Last year FWP stayed hurt... and Mend was gone in game 2. This year is the headscratcher with Mend getting 5 a pop. I know stats are misleading but the guy missed 4 games so if we leaned on him more maybe we grind out a game or 2. However... If the other team is playing run it makes no sense to run him because he is not Bettis... Those days are over. We can debate offensive stats all day long but if we need to onside kick with a lead or hope wide open WR's do the Mason to win games it won't matter.

feltdizz
12-31-2009, 02:21 PM
We need to utilize Heath, Spaeth, Mendenhall, and the WR into some short passing game playcalls...screens, 10yds and in type patterns. Seems the only pass pattern we have that isn't 10 yards or more down the field is the stay pattern in the bunch formation.

Mix this shorter passing game, especially the quality designed screens, with the longer passing game we have going on, and we might have something. Get a real FB to mix into the run game. Get more creative in the redzone. I have mentioned 50 times on there that I don't understand having a pass catching TE the size of Spaeth and never throwing to him. Teams are going to cover Heath. Spaeth is almost an unknown weapon we can sneak in a couple times a game.

Wonder if McHugh would have helped our running game this season?
Heath gets touches... He also had a routine catch turn into an INT. It happens but he dropped passes he usually catches. Sweed dropped a game changing TD, Mend dropped a perfect TD and also dropped a key 3rd down a few games back.

Hines, Holmes, Wallace and Ben have all had miscue's and while no one Is perfect fans can't blame BA for this...

Time and time again some fans ask or begged for Ben to throw to Mend earlier or check down only to be seen as haters or fans who are clueless to Ben's genius. When it's 3rd and empty and all the WR's go long is it poor coaching or poor player recognition of hot routes? When Starks or Colon have a guy on there outside shoulder and look inside to double no one... These are miscues that cam be fixed.

The real question is can we fix the glaring deficiencies in the secondary or is it all on Troy?

SteelAbility
12-31-2009, 02:55 PM
There are many who say that BA is THE problem. Such a claim is a bit short-sighted. As Ruthless said, there is plenty of blame to go around. However, that being said, BA IS a problem, especially in his stubbornness in trying the same things in the RZ. IMO, he should be replaced. If there is a problem and you know you have it, then fix it. Are there other probelms? Absolutely. But fix what you know needs to be fixed.

As a rule, like begets like. Humans beget humans. Dogs beget dogs. And problems beget problems. Get rid of known problems and the pathway to fixing the unknown ones will either become more clear or take care of themselves. As an example, if the RZ playcalling sucks, then defenders can start feeling like they have to make big plays to make up for the fact that O can't get better than a FG in the RZ. Then they start playing a bit footloose instead of disciplined and compromise good D. Just sayin'. It's not out of the realm of possible or conceivable.

As another example, one of our huge problems this year has been the dropsies. However, there is a huge difference between playcalling and the dropsies. Dropsies involve a lack of concentration or a focus on run-after-catch, trying to add to the value of the play. Playcalling that is stubborn and non-adjusting (example: 8 sacks given up to the 29th ranked Browns D because of empty backfields and going for the big strike instead of quick outs that make the D back off) is way less excusable, especially when it is repeated over and over again. The playcalling involves lots of time to foresee and analyze. The dropsie happens in the heat of the moment. BIG DIFFERENCE.

papillon
12-31-2009, 03:34 PM
There are many who say that BA is THE problem. Such a claim is a bit short-sighted. As Ruthless said, there is plenty of blame to go around. However, that being said, BA IS a problem, especially in his stubbornness in trying the same things in the RZ. IMO, he should be replaced. If there is a problem and you know you have it, then fix it. Are there other probelms? Absolutely. But fix what you know needs to be fixed.

As a rule, like begets like. Humans beget humans. Dogs beget dogs. And problems beget problems. Get rid of known problems and the pathway to fixing the unknown ones will either become more clear or take care of themselves. As an example, if the RZ playcalling sucks, then defenders can start feeling like they have to make big plays to make up for the fact that O can't get better than a FG in the RZ. Then they start playing a bit footloose instead of disciplined and compromise good D. Just sayin'. It's not out of the realm of possible or conceivable.

As another example, one of our huge problems this year has been the dropsies. However, there is a huge difference between playcalling and the dropsies. Dropsies involve a lack of concentration or a focus on run-after-catch, trying to add to the value of the play. Playcalling that is stubborn and non-adjusting (example: 8 sacks given up to the 29th ranked Browns D because of empty backfields and going for the big strike instead of quick outs that make the D back off) is way less excusable, especially when it is repeated over and over again. The playcalling involves lots of time to foresee and analyze. The dropsie happens in the heat of the moment. BIG DIFFERENCE.

If Bruce Arians is a Problem (I'm not saying he is or isn't), then is D1ck Lebeau a problem? If they are both problems how should the Steelers deal with them?

Pappy

SteelAbility
12-31-2009, 03:47 PM
There are many who say that BA is THE problem. Such a claim is a bit short-sighted. As Ruthless said, there is plenty of blame to go around. However, that being said, BA IS a problem, especially in his stubbornness in trying the same things in the RZ. IMO, he should be replaced. If there is a problem and you know you have it, then fix it. Are there other probelms? Absolutely. But fix what you know needs to be fixed.

As a rule, like begets like. Humans beget humans. Dogs beget dogs. And problems beget problems. Get rid of known problems and the pathway to fixing the unknown ones will either become more clear or take care of themselves. As an example, if the RZ playcalling sucks, then defenders can start feeling like they have to make big plays to make up for the fact that O can't get better than a FG in the RZ. Then they start playing a bit footloose instead of disciplined and compromise good D. Just sayin'. It's not out of the realm of possible or conceivable.

As another example, one of our huge problems this year has been the dropsies. However, there is a huge difference between playcalling and the dropsies. Dropsies involve a lack of concentration or a focus on run-after-catch, trying to add to the value of the play. Playcalling that is stubborn and non-adjusting (example: 8 sacks given up to the 29th ranked Browns D because of empty backfields and going for the big strike instead of quick outs that make the D back off) is way less excusable, especially when it is repeated over and over again. The playcalling involves lots of time to foresee and analyze. The dropsie happens in the heat of the moment. BIG DIFFERENCE.

If Bruce Arians is a Problem (I'm not saying he is or isn't), then is D1ck Lebeau a problem? If they are both problems how should the Steelers deal with them?

Pappy

Good question. I think in this context "a problem" means either

1. uncorrectable, or
2. too difficult to correct within a reasonable time frame and/or with reasonable means or
3. recurring with significant frequency or
4. combination of 2 or more of the above

Under that definition, I don't consider LeBeau a problem. If I did, then I would have the same stance on LeBeau (i.e. get rid of him). I consider BA to fall under 1 (by stubbornness, not intelligence) and 3 (with RZ playcalling)

I believe our D's problems have been mostly due to a lack of Troy and Aaron Smith. In addition to that we have a huge liability in William Gay that has all of the normal schemes contorting and compromising. To be fair, I think the repeated starting of Gay has bordered on #3 above and certainly is on LeBeau somewhat. But I feel his options are way limited compared to BA's.

papillon
12-31-2009, 04:09 PM
There are many who say that BA is THE problem. Such a claim is a bit short-sighted. As Ruthless said, there is plenty of blame to go around. However, that being said, BA IS a problem, especially in his stubbornness in trying the same things in the RZ. IMO, he should be replaced. If there is a problem and you know you have it, then fix it. Are there other probelms? Absolutely. But fix what you know needs to be fixed.

As a rule, like begets like. Humans beget humans. Dogs beget dogs. And problems beget problems. Get rid of known problems and the pathway to fixing the unknown ones will either become more clear or take care of themselves. As an example, if the RZ playcalling sucks, then defenders can start feeling like they have to make big plays to make up for the fact that O can't get better than a FG in the RZ. Then they start playing a bit footloose instead of disciplined and compromise good D. Just sayin'. It's not out of the realm of possible or conceivable.

As another example, one of our huge problems this year has been the dropsies. However, there is a huge difference between playcalling and the dropsies. Dropsies involve a lack of concentration or a focus on run-after-catch, trying to add to the value of the play. Playcalling that is stubborn and non-adjusting (example: 8 sacks given up to the 29th ranked Browns D because of empty backfields and going for the big strike instead of quick outs that make the D back off) is way less excusable, especially when it is repeated over and over again. The playcalling involves lots of time to foresee and analyze. The dropsie happens in the heat of the moment. BIG DIFFERENCE.

If Bruce Arians is a Problem (I'm not saying he is or isn't), then is D1ck Lebeau a problem? If they are both problems how should the Steelers deal with them?

Pappy

Good question. I think in this context "a problem" means either

1. uncorrectable, or
2. too difficult to correct within a reasonable time frame and/or with reasonable means or
3. recurring with significant frequency or
4. combination of 2 or more of the above

Under that definition, I don't consider LeBeau a problem. If I did, then I would have the same stance on LeBeau (i.e. get rid of him). I consider BA to fall under 1 (by stubbornness, not intelligence) and 3 (with RZ playcalling)

I believe our D's problems have been mostly due to a lack of Troy and Aaron Smith. In addition to that we have a huge liability in William Gay that has all of the normal schemes contorting and compromising. To be fair, I think the repeated starting of Gay has bordered on #3 above and certainly is on LeBeau somewhat. But I feel his options are way limited compared to BA's.

Fair enough, but as a frame of reference about how much fans do and don't know, if you watched the replay of the Steelers vs Ravens game Tuesday evening there was a very interesting comment made by Ben during the play to Santonio at the end of the half. By all accounts that play looked perfectly executed, the corner blitzed, Holmes and Ben read it, Ben hit Holmes in stride and the safety didn't roll up quick enough to stop the throw, Holmes used his momentum against him to get around him and scored.

According to Ben the entire play was read wrong, the ball shouldn't have been thrown there and the only thing that went right was the fact that Holmes scored a touchdown. I found this information absolutely fascinating. When I heard Ben say this, I thought to myself, as a fan, we have no idea what so ever how a play should work and when they don't work what went wrong.

The reason I bring this up is because this indicates to me that there is absolutely no way for us to know why the offense breaks down in the red zone, when there are no RBs in the backfield what are Ben's responsibilities on a blitz, who called the play etc., in other words, blaming Bruce Arians is simply picking an easy target because we THINK we know what is happening on the field, we don't.

Pappy

Oviedo
12-31-2009, 04:25 PM
There are many who say that BA is THE problem. Such a claim is a bit short-sighted. As Ruthless said, there is plenty of blame to go around. However, that being said, BA IS a problem, especially in his stubbornness in trying the same things in the RZ. IMO, he should be replaced. If there is a problem and you know you have it, then fix it. Are there other probelms? Absolutely. But fix what you know needs to be fixed.

As a rule, like begets like. Humans beget humans. Dogs beget dogs. And problems beget problems. Get rid of known problems and the pathway to fixing the unknown ones will either become more clear or take care of themselves. As an example, if the RZ playcalling sucks, then defenders can start feeling like they have to make big plays to make up for the fact that O can't get better than a FG in the RZ. Then they start playing a bit footloose instead of disciplined and compromise good D. Just sayin'. It's not out of the realm of possible or conceivable.

As another example, one of our huge problems this year has been the dropsies. However, there is a huge difference between playcalling and the dropsies. Dropsies involve a lack of concentration or a focus on run-after-catch, trying to add to the value of the play. Playcalling that is stubborn and non-adjusting (example: 8 sacks given up to the 29th ranked Browns D because of empty backfields and going for the big strike instead of quick outs that make the D back off) is way less excusable, especially when it is repeated over and over again. The playcalling involves lots of time to foresee and analyze. The dropsie happens in the heat of the moment. BIG DIFFERENCE.

If Bruce Arians is a Problem (I'm not saying he is or isn't), then is D1ck Lebeau a problem? If they are both problems how should the Steelers deal with them?

Pappy

Good question. I think in this context "a problem" means either

1. uncorrectable, or
2. too difficult to correct within a reasonable time frame and/or with reasonable means or
3. recurring with significant frequency or
4. combination of 2 or more of the above

Under that definition, I don't consider LeBeau a problem. If I did, then I would have the same stance on LeBeau (i.e. get rid of him). I consider BA to fall under 1 (by stubbornness, not intelligence) and 3 (with RZ playcalling)

I believe our D's problems have been mostly due to a lack of Troy and Aaron Smith. In addition to that we have a huge liability in William Gay that has all of the normal schemes contorting and compromising. To be fair, I think the repeated starting of Gay has bordered on #3 above and certainly is on LeBeau somewhat. But I feel his options are way limited compared to BA's.

Is LeBeau doing his job and using the right scheme if his defense collapses when two players are out? Smith's age is hardly a revelation and it is hardly shocking that Troy's style of play has caused him to miss multiple games in other years too.

It seems that our defense as currently employed is over dependent on two players and the complexity prevents us from reloading talent quickly as they seem to have to take multiple year equivalents of "redshirt" seasons. Not sure in a salary cap league that is smart.

I would also add, if we think we have a problem in the secondary with depth look at our LB corps. Does anyone think that after Woodley, Farrior, Timmons, Harrison and Fox there is a single LB on this team capable of being a decent starter? Even if for a game or two?

feltdizz
12-31-2009, 08:20 PM
SteelAbility are you saying LeBeau gets a pass since he doesn't have Troy and Smith? Really?
If that is the case then BA is a freaking genius. BA has lost key players on offense in damn near every other game the last 2 years.. The OL has been rebuilt and plug and play the last 2 years as well...

We aren't asking for last years heroics on D. Just a stop in the fourth.. If LeBeau can't put our players in a position to do that or they can't do it de to scheme or skill it's a problem.

BA is far from a genius but Sweed was still open a few times.. He just dropped the passes. Dixon struggled but he ran into the endzone for the go ahead TD...

Maybe Lebeau is so complex the players who aren't Troy can't comprehend the D.. Or maybe Lebeau got a little lazy and had Troy do all the work..

NorthCoast
01-01-2010, 10:42 AM
I agree with pretty much everything Pappy said... But I think a new OC would set Ben back so I doubt it happens.

The crazy thing...most of the BA bashers also claim this is now a "passing league" so the smashmouth is gone... Yet anytime BA is defended those same fans claim we should run more...
I agree we lack the killer instinct when up 10.. but that also implies passing the ball and that goes back to burning clock and player execution, not BA.

This is the first year I have ever heard getting a lead late in the 4th is a bad thing for our team. Times are changing I guess...

The NFL is changing more than we realize in all likelihood. I'd be curious if the NFL took a poll of the fans how they would vote on the current state of the NFL. That is, do most fans want to see pass after pass after pass or would they like to see rule changes to give defensive backs a better chance and thus reintroducing a strong running game back into the fold.

Except for Minnesota, Carolina and the Titans do any other teams have a strong running attack that they can lean on? Cincy? Baltimore?

Pappy

Unfortunately this is not true either. It is only our perception as Steeler fans.

2009
Avg team rush total: 1740 (116 yds/team/game) (15 games played)

2008
Avg team rush total: 1855 (116 yds/tm/gm)

2007
Avg team rush total: 1775 (111 yds/tm/gm)

2006
Avg team rush total: 1877 (117.3/tm/gm)

2005
Avg team rush total: 1799.5 (112.5 /tm/gm)

The Steelers have rushing ranks of:

2004: 2nd
2005: 5th
2006: 10th
2007: 3rd
2008: 20th
2009: 22nd (current)

So it is certainly our offense that is changing but not necessarily league-wide. Is this a good thing? Not sure, because we have one Superbowl with a low ranking rush and this season looking bleak. I think the jury is still out on this one.

Yea, thanks for taking the time to do a bit of research. I wonder what the rushing stats were in the 6 years prior to those, if they were greater or lesser league wide? Maybe, the sampling you have is from the new pass first offensive mantra?

Pappy

Here they are and they have been remarkably consistent:

2003
Avg total team rush: 1886 (117.9 /gm) (Steelers, 31st w/ 1488 yds, where was Bettis??)

2002
Avg total team rush: 1858 (116.1 /gm) (Steelers, 9th, 2120 yds)

2001
Avg total team rush: 1788 (111.8 /gm) (Steelers, 1st, 2774 yds, hurray for the '3 yds and a pile of dust' gang)

2000
Avg total team rush: 1801 (112.6 /gm) (Steelers, 4th, 2248 yds)

1999
Avg total team rush: 1704 (106.5 /gm , tough year for RBs I guess.) (Steelers, 10th, 1991 yds)

1998
Avg total team rush: 1803 (112.7 /gm) (Steelers, 7th, 2034 yds)

1997
Avg total team rush: 1809 (113.0 /gm) (Steelers, 1st, 2479 yds)

As we have all witnessed, are offense is completely different now. It lies in the hands of the QB as opposed to the RBs of the past. I suppose if you are paying a guy $100M, you would like to see the ball in his hands rather than a dime-a-dozen RB.

Mister Pittsburgh
01-01-2010, 01:54 PM
SteelAbility are you saying LeBeau gets a pass since he doesn't have Troy and Smith? Really?
If that is the case then BA is a freaking genius. BA has lost key players on offense in damn near every other game the last 2 years.. The OL has been rebuilt and plug and play the last 2 years as well...

We aren't asking for last years heroics on D. Just a stop in the fourth.. If LeBeau can't put our players in a position to do that or they can't do it de to scheme or skill it's a problem.

BA is far from a genius but Sweed was still open a few times.. He just dropped the passes. Dixon struggled but he ran into the endzone for the go ahead TD...

Maybe Lebeau is so complex the players who aren't Troy can't comprehend the D.. Or maybe Lebeau got a little lazy and had Troy do all the work..

Who has our offense been missing other than linemen? Willie Parker? I think saying the defense is missing Troy & Aaron Smith is like saying the offense is missing Ben & Hines.

feltdizz
01-01-2010, 11:22 PM
SteelAbility are you saying LeBeau gets a pass since he doesn't have Troy and Smith? Really?
If that is the case then BA is a freaking genius. BA has lost key players on offense in damn near every other game the last 2 years.. The OL has been rebuilt and plug and play the last 2 years as well...

We aren't asking for last years heroics on D. Just a stop in the fourth.. If LeBeau can't put our players in a position to do that or they can't do it de to scheme or skill it's a problem.

BA is far from a genius but Sweed was still open a few times.. He just dropped the passes. Dixon struggled but he ran into the endzone for the go ahead TD...

Maybe Lebeau is so complex the players who aren't Troy can't comprehend the D.. Or maybe Lebeau got a little lazy and had Troy do all the work..

Who has our offense been missing other than linemen? Willie Parker? I think saying the defense is missing Troy & Aaron Smith is like saying the offense is missing Ben & Hines.

We don't fall apart when Ben is out. Without Troy are Defensive Backfield is a circus.

stlrz d
01-02-2010, 01:20 PM
BA meet Life's Work. Life's Work meet BA.

Now why don't you two spend a little time getting to know one another....

SanAntonioSteelerFan
01-02-2010, 01:45 PM
BA was outgame planned by THE BROWNS. In case anyone forgot, :brownssuck . But BA game planning (inability to compensate for a **GASP** unexpected defense) made them look like the '85 Bears.

I'm not saying I'm right for sure, but anyone who says BA should be a Steeler OC next year needs to give a decent explanation for the Browns game. I can't think of one.

Mister Pittsburgh
01-02-2010, 02:26 PM
SteelAbility are you saying LeBeau gets a pass since he doesn't have Troy and Smith? Really?
If that is the case then BA is a freaking genius. BA has lost key players on offense in damn near every other game the last 2 years.. The OL has been rebuilt and plug and play the last 2 years as well...

We aren't asking for last years heroics on D. Just a stop in the fourth.. If LeBeau can't put our players in a position to do that or they can't do it de to scheme or skill it's a problem.

BA is far from a genius but Sweed was still open a few times.. He just dropped the passes. Dixon struggled but he ran into the endzone for the go ahead TD...

Maybe Lebeau is so complex the players who aren't Troy can't comprehend the D.. Or maybe Lebeau got a little lazy and had Troy do all the work..

Who has our offense been missing other than linemen? Willie Parker? I think saying the defense is missing Troy & Aaron Smith is like saying the offense is missing Ben & Hines.

We don't fall apart when Ben is out. Without Troy are Defensive Backfield is a circus.

True. Ben's backup the game he was out was a young, gifted QB who might have been a 1st round pick had he not gotten injured. Troy's backup is a 33yr old that can't cover a wet paper bag. I think that Troy makes all the adjustment calls in the secondary as well, which with him being out, I think that task was handed to Ryan Clark.

I was watching NFL network the other day and there is a show called 'Sound FX', and they had Clark with a mic on him. On the final score for the Raiders, Clark started to try and yell something to Mundy, but the play was snapped before he got to convey the info and it ended up a TD that Mundy blew.

I guess the point is in Lebeaus defense a lot of it might be reactionary to what the offense is doing, causing a lot of adjustments after they initially line up for the DB's. If Ben goes down, they simply call the play in to Dixon and he runs the play. I doubt Dixon was doing any audible calling or anything. That is why our offense was so generic in that game.

decleater
01-02-2010, 03:15 PM
All I have to say about the title and ensuing suppositions is, holy crap! We need to get back to Steeler football at least to the point where we can run the ball if we WANT to. Sure, I want us to be able to pass the ball but, c'mon!

Bruce Arians should return alright, return to Cleveland where he can do the most harm!

feltdizz
01-02-2010, 03:57 PM
All I have to say about the title and ensuing suppositions is, holy crap! We need to get back to Steeler football at least to the point where we can run the ball if we WANT to. Sure, I want us to be able to pass the ball but, c'mon!

Bruce Arians should return alright, return to Cleveland where he can do the most harm!

When we gave our QB $100 Million dollars, Steeler Football as we knew it was forever changed.

I agree we need to run more.. but if we get back to Steeler D we will be much better. If our D made a few stops we complain about BA but we are also 11-4. No amount of Steeler Football could hide our weakness on D. We are 4th in TOP.. so whether it's running or passing our D still has to stop the other team. This year they couldn't do it at all against the worst offenses in football.

decleater
01-02-2010, 04:07 PM
All I have to say about the title and ensuing suppositions is, holy crap! We need to get back to Steeler football at least to the point where we can run the ball if we WANT to. Sure, I want us to be able to pass the ball but, c'mon!

Bruce Arians should return alright, return to Cleveland where he can do the most harm!

When we gave our QB $100 Million dollars, Steeler Football as we knew it was forever changed.

I agree we need to run more.. but if we get back to Steeler D we will be much better. If our D made a few stops we complain about BA but we are also 11-4. No amount of Steeler Football could hide our weakness on D. We are 4th in TOP.. so whether it's running or passing our D still has to stop the other team. This year they couldn't do it at all against the worst offenses in football.
I don't know where anyone gets the idea that Ben got $100 M just to pass the football. He was paid $100 M dollars to win football games and to do that on any consistent basis we need to be able to effectively run the football when we WANT! Add to that the fact that BA game plans with a dart board, can't adjust at halftime, can't control his QB if needed and where does that leave us?

PS The D does need some work.

frankthetank1
01-02-2010, 05:55 PM
All I have to say about the title and ensuing suppositions is, holy crap! We need to get back to Steeler football at least to the point where we can run the ball if we WANT to. Sure, I want us to be able to pass the ball but, c'mon!

Bruce Arians should return alright, return to Cleveland where he can do the most harm!

When we gave our QB $100 Million dollars, Steeler Football as we knew it was forever changed.

I agree we need to run more.. but if we get back to Steeler D we will be much better. If our D made a few stops we complain about BA but we are also 11-4. No amount of Steeler Football could hide our weakness on D. We are 4th in TOP.. so whether it's running or passing our D still has to stop the other team. This year they couldn't do it at all against the worst offenses in football.

so steeler football was having a sub par or average qb? im too young to have seen bradshaw play so all i have seen are scrubs play qb. sure korkie had one or two good seasons and o'donnell was servicable. turnover tommy had one good year but other than that its a pathetic list. if they didnt pay ben the money he deserves we wouldnt have an elite qb

BATMAN
01-02-2010, 07:16 PM
I will admit, I love a powerful running game or the fact to have an offensive line that can impose their will/muscle upon an opposing team. We could run with the best of them during the Cowher era and heck, we were the best at it but, it only got us one Super Bowl win.
If passing will win us more Super Bowls then I'm fine with that but, I still want an offensive line, cordinator, quarterback that see fit to run the ball when needed.
The best defense at times is a run game that can keep the ball and control the clock. Nothing demoralizes a team when you can beat them up front and stuff the football down their throats.

Arians is lost when it comes down to adjusting during a game. He is lost when it comes to controlling a game. The dude stinks.

feltdizz
01-02-2010, 08:57 PM
All I have to say about the title and ensuing suppositions is, holy crap! We need to get back to Steeler football at least to the point where we can run the ball if we WANT to. Sure, I want us to be able to pass the ball but, c'mon!

Bruce Arians should return alright, return to Cleveland where he can do the most harm!

When we gave our QB $100 Million dollars, Steeler Football as we knew it was forever changed.

I agree we need to run more.. but if we get back to Steeler D we will be much better. If our D made a few stops we complain about BA but we are also 11-4. No amount of Steeler Football could hide our weakness on D. We are 4th in TOP.. so whether it's running or passing our D still has to stop the other team. This year they couldn't do it at all against the worst offenses in football.

so steeler football was having a sub par or average qb? im too young to have seen bradshaw play so all i have seen are scrubs play qb. sure korkie had one or two good seasons and o'donnell was servicable. turnover tommy had one good year but other than that its a pathetic list. if they didnt pay ben the money he deserves we wouldnt have an elite qb

it sounds like you think I believe we shouldn't have paid Ben.. He deserves the money!! I just think paying him that much puts the blame/game/ball in his hands a lot more.

I think Steeler football is 60 minutes of pain. Whether it's Hines peeling back to crush a LB or knocking a WR on is azzz. Whether we won or lost teams knew they would feel pain...

feltdizz
01-02-2010, 09:17 PM
I will admit, I love a powerful running game or the fact to have an offensive line that can impose their will/muscle upon an opposing team. We could run with the best of them during the Cowher era and heck, we were the best at it but, it only got us one Super Bowl win.
If passing will win us more Super Bowls then I'm fine with that but, I still want an offensive line, cordinator, quarterback that see fit to run the ball when needed.
The best defense at times is a run game that can keep the ball and control the clock. Nothing demoralizes a team when you can beat them up front and stuff the football down their throats.

Arians is lost when it comes down to adjusting during a game. He is lost when it comes to controlling a game. The dude stinks.

The best defense is defense. The most unfair bashing of BA comes down to one person. Jerome Bettis.

He is gone... The thin skinned but spectacular Faneca is gone... Half the fans keep going back to the glory years of the best big back to ever where a Steeler uniform as proof of how to close out a game. I do think we need to give Mend more touches in the fourth...

The funny thing is a lot of the people saying BA sucks, run more, get creative.... Will jump on anyone who says Ben needs less pass attempts or we need to run more when it's posted in another thread. It's a passing league if you criticize Ben... and too much passing when criticizing BA.