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BATMAN
12-21-2009, 01:21 AM
I don't think Lebeau has forgoten how to coach all of a sudden. For reason unknown to me and I'll guess it is the dollar, McFadden was let go and it obviously hurt our defense. Gay is no replacement and if the coaches felt that at time he, would be or will be good then, they are really stupid. You don't take a Super Bowl team and screw with it's personal. Are the coaches so blind that they couldn't see Gay was not that good ?
Looking good in practice if he did, wasn't the right formula for deciding he was a starter.
Taylor is such a rollercoaster guy at times and that he can't intercept a ball is amazing. When he and McFadden came to the team, I thought McFadden was going to have the better career.
Tyrone Carter seems like he gets worse each season. I know it is difficult to have backups and your team won't miss a beat but, Carter needs to be let go and they should start to develope someone to take over Troys place when his days end.
Speaking of Troy, how in the hell can this guy be that good that the entire secondary sucks without him ? I mean, Troy boy has to be the best defensive player in the league if a secondary falls apart without him.
Hampton still seems to have gas in the tank and I wonder were he will end up next season ? No to speak from both sides, If we do sign Hampton and keep guys the age of Hampton, Aaron Smith what, is their level of play and chance of injury going to be like next season ?
Farriors position needs upgraded. I think our defense misses Foote.

I hope Tomlin isn't too trigger happy that he gets rid of Lebeau but, I doubt the Rooneys would allow that. I do hope he gets rid of Arians.
I really don't care that we did put up so many points this weekend, the guy is too unblanced of game planning or game adjusting most of the times.

flippy
12-21-2009, 01:24 AM
It's the lack of pass rush. The most sacked QB in the league had all day to pass the ball. Any DBs will get beat when the QB has time in the pocket.

Starlifter
12-21-2009, 01:42 AM
It's the lack of pass rush. The most sacked QB in the league had all day to pass the ball. Any DBs will get beat when the QB has time in the pocket.

money post. we all know how critical the loss of aaron smith was. if our front 3 don't take up 5 guys, our LB's can't get pressure and our CB's get exposed.

Oviedo
12-21-2009, 09:15 AM
As more and more teams have gone to the 3-4 opponents are not surprised anymore. They know how to attck it because they are seeing it 8-10 times per year and for many teams they are practicing against it because that is what they run on their own defense.

Add to that that holding on pass plays is almost never called and you therefore take away the most important element required to make LeBeau's defense work...pressure on the QB. Without pressure on the QB the opponents WRs have time to find holes in the zone coverage defense where the DBs.

Personally, I think we have personnel better suited play an attacking 4-3 defense but that is an emotional debate that has been discussed many time here. I respect LeBeau for all he has done but really believe we need to seriously consider going in another direction.

frankthetank1
12-21-2009, 09:19 AM
It's the lack of pass rush. The most sacked QB in the league had all day to pass the ball. Any DBs will get beat when the QB has time in the pocket.

yup lack of pass rush has a lot to do with it but the fact is they are not a talented secondary to begain with. a great pass rush like last year wont expose them but when they dont get to the qb watch out.

Jooser
12-21-2009, 09:20 AM
Didn't we finish the game with ZERO sacks yesterday? There's no rush at all this season.

SteelAbility
12-21-2009, 09:26 AM
William Gay is a huge liability. It is obvious teams are picking on him. The physicality and awareness to play effectively at this level is simply not there. On one drive last night, GB picked on Gay 3 plays in a row. Here are the results of those plays ...

Play 1 (3rd and 2) Quick out to the WR. Gay takes a bad angle where he had a chance to stop the 1st down. WR goes for 7-8 yards (1st down). 5 Yard Cost above and beyond proper defending.

Play 2 (1st and 10) Again go to Gay's WR Gay manages to contact him at the 5-yard gain point. He drives Gay straight back for 3 yards. 3 Yard Cost above and beyond physical defending.

Play 3 (2nd and 2) Again go to Gay's WR. Gay whiffs (in such a way that he doesn't even slow him down or force him close to other defenders). The play goes for 16 yards. I'll give this a 12 yard cost above and beyond proper defense.

Total cost 20 yards due to poor tackling angle and lack of physicality. Meanwhile our OTHER defenders are tiring out.

SteelAbility
12-21-2009, 09:31 AM
Didn't we finish the game with ZERO sacks yesterday? There's no rush at all this season.

We had one lowly sack yesterday. It got us to 3rd and 16, after which we promptly gave up an easy 20-something-yard gain. Oddly enough that big gainer went right about to the same spot where the Ravens got 17 yards on us late in the 4thQ on 3rd and 22 from their own 20-something yard line. The subsequent manageable 4th and 5 went to Ray Rice who took it for 1st and goal.

stlrz d
12-21-2009, 09:54 AM
Gotta disagree with you Ovie. It's got nothing to do with teams "figuring it out" any more than they figure out the 4-3, which is far more common.

RussBII
12-21-2009, 10:08 AM
I think the pass rush is just a tick too slow this year... It might even be that the pass rush is exactly the same as last year, but QBs can get rid of the ball so easily because SOMEONE is open. Tyrone and Willie just can't cover anyone. Also, the word is out, 3rd and less than 8. Just see who is playing off the line, and throw a quick curl or quick slant to them. It's happened a LOT this year.

That being said, i believe the pass rush IS a tick slower, and our DBs can't cover anydamnedbody.

stlrz d
12-21-2009, 10:10 AM
I think the pass rush is just a tick too slow this year... It might even be that the pass rush is exactly the same as last year, but QBs can get rid of the ball so easily because SOMEONE is open. Tyrone and Willie just can't cover anyone. Also, the word is out, 3rd and less than 8. Just see who is playing off the line, and throw a quick curl or quick slant to them. It's happened a LOT this year.

That being said, i believe the pass rush IS a tick slower, and our DBs can't cover anydamnedbody.

That's part of it, but no Smitty to provide a push hurts too. If he gets a push and the QB has to move then someone else is in position to get him.

RussBII
12-21-2009, 10:14 AM
I think the pass rush is just a tick too slow this year... It might even be that the pass rush is exactly the same as last year, but QBs can get rid of the ball so easily because SOMEONE is open. Tyrone and Willie just can't cover anyone. Also, the word is out, 3rd and less than 8. Just see who is playing off the line, and throw a quick curl or quick slant to them. It's happened a LOT this year.

That being said, i believe the pass rush IS a tick slower, and our DBs can't cover anydamnedbody.

That's part of it, but no Smitty to provide a push hurts too. If he gets a push and the QB has to move then someone else is in position to get him.

Thus speeding up the pass rush. We're on the same page, brother.

frankthetank1
12-21-2009, 10:16 AM
the worst aspect of the defense is they are not getting any turnovers at all. was that the 2nd game in a row without forcing a to? just pathetic

Slapstick
12-21-2009, 10:22 AM
The Steelers' D is too Polamalu centric...

He covers up too many mistakes made by the DBs...and sometimes the front seven as well...

ramblinjim
12-21-2009, 10:24 AM
i think sometimes you also just have bad years. our 8-8 team wasn't a bad team, we were in the playoffs the next year and the superbowl the year after that. there wasn't a huge upswing in talent over the course of those years. some guys got some more experience but there wasn't a large up-swing in talent.

A couple of years ago the Ravens finished terribly, maybe 5-11 terrible. The next year they were a couple of plays away from the Superbowl. IIRC, the only major upgrade in talent was Flacco.

Our D this year is missing the best 3-4 end in the game and the best safety in the game. The talent and experience drop off in the next guys down in dramatic. Hood looks like he'll be a good player but he's not going to replace Aaron Smith his rookie season by any account. Our #1 corner can't catch and our #2 corner hasn't played well this year.

I think we need to draft heavy on defense this year, hopefully find a corner and some big uglies for the DLine.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
12-21-2009, 10:26 AM
Kinda go hand in hand guys. You don't see a pass rush because the ball is coming out early...Because we can't cover. Been the same all season. If the QB has to go to his 3rd read or you see him pat the ball...We get there. Other than that...Ball is out. To the other side...DL blitz packages on passing down come to no surprise to any team...Any more. When you blitz and it is picked up...Secondary is short. Then our below average coverage guys are exposed even more. So to the topic question...Both.

RussBII
12-21-2009, 10:26 AM
The Steelers' D is too Polamalu centric...

He covers up too many mistakes made by the DBs...and sometimes the front seven as well...

Don't forget Aaron Smith is out too. The LBs/pass rush are totally predicated on the DL and Secondary doing their jobs... if those jobs don't get done, the pass rush has almost no chance.

NorthCoast
12-21-2009, 10:30 AM
I don't agree that it was a lack of pass rush that the secondary was exposed. There were just to many GB receivers wide open from the very start of the play. There still seems to be communication problems and I am wondering whether Carter especially, really knows the playbook. He seems so out of position on so many plays.

For those wanting McFadden back, he is not the answer for the Cardinals either. No INTs this year and I believe I read that he is one of the most abused CBs in the league in terms of completion percentage. Gay is playing with a complete lack of confidence and for a CB that is the kiss of death. Not sure if he can be coached out of it, but it will be a long off-season for him.

Jooser
12-21-2009, 10:46 AM
I don't think it's ALL due to the lack of a pass rush. But, yesterday, AR had all day in the pocket after the first quarter. Until then, we were at least hitting him as he released the ball. The rush really fizzled out after that. I don't know if it's that we were pooped out, or if GB made some good adjustments and stymied us. I make no excuses for the abhorrent play of our secondary. There are too many missed tackles, and the DBs are rarely in the correct position to make a decent play on the ball. It's as if they're always playing catch up or something. It's just so darned troublesome to me. I keep thinking, ok, here we go, we're gonna turn it around and someone's gonna make a play. Then, nothing, just the same old stuff.

NWNewell
12-21-2009, 10:49 AM
The Steelers' D is too Polamalu centric...

He covers up too many mistakes made by the DBs...and sometimes the front seven as well...

It's not Polamalu centric schematically.

It's just that most of our secondary is so poor and he is so good that it's a completely different coverage unit with him in there vs out.

And he has such great athleticism and instincts, that he is just that big of a difference maker in our defense.

Face it, he's just that good, and the rest of our secondary is just that bad.

NorthCoast
12-21-2009, 10:50 AM
Oh, and one other thing, Rodgers happens to be a pretty damn good quarterback and is best in the league on 3rd down. He's made a few DBs look foolish this season...

feltdizz
12-21-2009, 12:12 PM
As more and more teams have gone to the 3-4 opponents are not surprised anymore. They know how to attck it because they are seeing it 8-10 times per year and for many teams they are practicing against it because that is what they run on their own defense.

Add to that that holding on pass plays is almost never called and you therefore take away the most important element required to make LeBeau's defense work...pressure on the QB. Without pressure on the QB the opponents WRs have time to find holes in the zone coverage defense where the DBs.

Personally, I think we have personnel better suited play an attacking 4-3 defense but that is an emotional debate that has been discussed many time here. I respect LeBeau for all he has done but really believe we need to seriously consider going in another direction.

you are like.. the rain man for the 4-3 Ovie... lol, i'm joking.

regarding the thread question it is both... this season D reminds me of the genius in the office who is exposed when his assistant leaves and we find out the assistant was the real genius. That guy is Troy and LeBeau has our D centered around Troy.. and rightfully so.. just seems crazy that our DB's are this bad without him.

It's not the pass rush either.. I think GB made good adjustments in blocking and Rodgers is like Cutler with his mobility and we struggle when the QB can move.. Rodgers is no slouch

BradshawsHairdresser
12-21-2009, 12:29 PM
It's both LeBeau and the personnel.

Polamalu is good, but this defense would still be struggling mightily even if he was playing, IMO. Upgrades are needed at 5 or 6 positions...some players are slowing down due to age, and some just weren't that good to begin with (ie., Gay).

As for LeBeau, he has obviously dialed back the pressure, and kept the soft coverage, and it isn't working.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
12-21-2009, 12:36 PM
I really think they need to install a different package in passing situations. I think Timmons is a great cover guy but he could bring alot more to the table on passing downs. We need to help our secondary with some speed blitzing. We have seen this all over the league as of late. They need to have Keisel play over the center. He is the only DL. Woodley, Harrison, Timmons, Farrior, & Fox all need to be on the field. Yo have to find ways to get Woodley, Harrison, & Timmons running at the QB. Having 5 LBs in rush position would create some confusion. They are fielding 2-3 DL and we know they won't be in coverage. I like what Capers was doing and that would play into the strengths of the Steelers too. It is a copycat league and I hope DL sees what I saw when he watches film. Overloading a side & Flashing 3 LBs on a G & T changes things pre-snap. Keisel's only job is to cut off the Cs protection roll and then get his hands up. They could do so many things and right now the LBs are by far the strongest group on this D.

Oviedo
12-21-2009, 01:55 PM
As more and more teams have gone to the 3-4 opponents are not surprised anymore. They know how to attck it because they are seeing it 8-10 times per year and for many teams they are practicing against it because that is what they run on their own defense.

Add to that that holding on pass plays is almost never called and you therefore take away the most important element required to make LeBeau's defense work...pressure on the QB. Without pressure on the QB the opponents WRs have time to find holes in the zone coverage defense where the DBs.

Personally, I think we have personnel better suited play an attacking 4-3 defense but that is an emotional debate that has been discussed many time here. I respect LeBeau for all he has done but really believe we need to seriously consider going in another direction.

you are like.. the rain man for the 4-3 Ovie... lol, i'm joking.

regarding the thread question it is both... this season D reminds me of the genius in the office who is exposed when his assistant leaves and we find out the assistant was the real genius. That guy is Troy and LeBeau has our D centered around Troy.. and rightfully so.. just seems crazy that our DB's are this bad without him.

It's not the pass rush either.. I think GB made good adjustments in blocking and Rodgers is like Cutler with his mobility and we struggle when the QB can move.. Rodgers is no slouch

Like rain water on a rock. Eventually you wear it away.

Seriously, I just want an objective assessment and that we don't stick with the 3-4 just because LeBeau is around. If LeBeau leaves, and I think he will, there needs to be a decision made. Many mistake my advocacy for the 4-3 as one that something gets better. That is not the case although I don't think we can be just as great in the 4-3.

I support the 4-3 because I strongly believe it is easier to get players out of college to restock and build depth your talent. The 3-4 requires getting projects and "unique" talents like NT. The talent pool for 4-3 players is just deeper. We discard half the DL prospects coming out of coilege because they are 4-3 DEs and don't have the size to play 3-4 DE and we have to take a couple of years to teach them a new position. I think much of the depth issues we have on the defense is directly related to the 3-4.

This will not get any better. As more colleges go to the spread offense you will see more speed rushers on the DL at DE and more pass coverage LBs. Neither fit the 3-4.

NW Steeler
12-21-2009, 02:10 PM
Well said Oviedo. We may not have the current personnel to switch to the 4-3, but I can't see that it wouldn't take more than a year or two to get all the pieces into place. If LeBeau does retire, I bet the switch will happen sooner rather than later. And as far as teams having the 4-3 or 3-4 "figured out", who cares. I'd rather we just beat the team across from us with sheer talent. It may take a combination of draft and free agency to solve our secondary problems.

steelblood
12-21-2009, 02:19 PM
It's the lack of pass rush. The most sacked QB in the league had all day to pass the ball. Any DBs will get beat when the QB has time in the pocket.

money post. we all know how critical the loss of aaron smith was. if our front 3 don't take up 5 guys, our LB's can't get pressure and our CB's get exposed.

It didn't help that there was no pass rush, but Gay was terrible again. They picked on him mercilessly (at one point they threw at him three or four times in a row). Many times he was beaten by quick passes that would have worked even if our blitzers were getting pressure. Also, Gay's tackling has gone from very good to dreadful.

Joe Burnett, who I still have hopes for was also picked on. He gave up some plays, but he usually gets turned around to find the ball while Gay often is beat without ever seeing the ball.

SteelAbility
12-21-2009, 07:37 PM
Loss of Smith, arguably our best run-stuffer (Maybe a case for Hampton) + Loss of Polamalu, definitely our best pass defender = A mediocre, or, at best, slightly better than average D.

If we lost one OR the other, I think we'd be much better. Smith's run-stuffing would make the passing more predictable. Polamalu just takes away all kinds of stuff that normally works and, again, makes the offense more predictable.

It boils down to how predictable you can force the O to be. We lost our two main pieces in that chess game.

BATMAN
12-22-2009, 02:21 AM
I realize we have injuries the leads to some of our defensives woes but, my worry or worries are mounting about some of the players.

Smith, Hampton, Farrior and Troy are a few of my all time favorite Steelers.
I hold Smith and Farrior in my Steeler heart because, Smith wasn't a number on pick but has played like one from the start. You have to love a guy that is the unsong hero for so many seasons.
Farrior was a steal in my opinion. I enjoyed knowing that we got a number one pick from another team that responded or showed his worth as a number one pick for our Steelers when, the Jets felt he was not worth retaining or whatever the case may be. Farrior had become the mental leader of our defense had it not been the conditioned love that Ray Lewis gets, Farrior should have made more pro-bowls. Sad but true, Farrior has seemed to lost the edge/step in his older age and we need youth in his position.
Lets take a look back at Aaron Smith once again. The dude is a stud and no one can argue that but, the injury he has in my opnion is a sign of his age. More injuries, more often and longer to recover once players get old. Smith is no young pup and I'm guessing he will be on the decline too.
Hampton has a lot of heart and to me, has had a decent season but again, he isn't the player that he was in his prime and he will be on his decline.
Troy is the best ever but how many season will he be out due to his style of play ?
It's not really even that, how long can Troy be a factor to a bunch of guys in the secondary that can't get the job done. At some point Troy will be too old or moving on and we will really be in trouble without him like this season. I think we should have better secondary players that do not rely upon Troy to be capable to do their job.

Ryan Clark isn't all that either this season and I guess he too depended on Troy to make his own position or play better.

No interceptions from our secondary other than Troy for the entire season, that is beyond sad. That tells me it is the players and not Lebeau. I always thought that but, what more proof would one need if they had their doubts of coaching vs. players ?