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stlrz d
12-20-2009, 09:07 PM
I love our poor leader.

RussBII
12-20-2009, 09:16 PM
When there were :03 left, they showed Ben's stat line.

I did the math in my head and was like "I hope and hope and hope his final stat line is 29/46 for 503 yds and 3 TDs."

That's right, I'm taking credit for this win. Game ball to me.

Iron Shiek
12-20-2009, 09:20 PM
Way to go Russ! Ben had some beauties. The pass to Heath on sideline and te td were incredible.

proudpittsburgher
12-20-2009, 09:20 PM
Yet, Ben is still the problem to some on here. Even at th ebar, I had to listen to this guy trash ben on the near pick, which was caused because someone tackled Hines, and hammered him for each incompletion on the final drive because he could have run with it . . . with no timeouts and under a minute remaining. :roll: People are always, and I mean always going to hammer ben, no matter what. I don't get it. I really don't.

feltdizz
12-20-2009, 09:31 PM
Ben played great... I will let the lovers of him enjoy the day.

stlrz d
12-20-2009, 09:32 PM
Ben played great... I will let the lovers of him enjoy the day.

Sad day for you, is it?

feltdizz
12-20-2009, 09:49 PM
Ben played great... I will let the lovers of him enjoy the day.

Sad day for you, is it?

great day for me buddy. We finally won a game. I was going to point out the fans who think some
players or coaches are above criticism but after such a great win what's the point? Enjoy it.... I never understood why some people don't understand how or why some fans vent, nitpick and use a fine comb when losing 5 straight.

Today is not a day to prove who is right and wrong... We are 7-7. Just enjoy the win I know I am. :Cheers

msp26505
12-20-2009, 09:57 PM
Ben can play smarter.

If he gets an OC who can convince him to get rid of the ball more quickly sometimes without stifling his improvisational skills, Ben may be one of the best EVER at the position.

As it is, he is among the top 10% of QB's in the league, but he has cost this team yards, sacks, and games himself plenty of times, and he will shorten his career if he doesn't quit playing hero.

proudpittsburgher
12-20-2009, 09:58 PM
Ben can play smarter.

If he gets an OC who can convince him to get rid of the ball more quickly sometimes without stifling his improvisational skills, Ben may be one of the best EVER at the position.

As it is, he is among the top 10% of QB's in the league, but he has cost this team yards, sacks, and games himself plenty of times, and he will shorten his career if he doesn't quit playing hero.


If ben quits playing hero, we don't have a super bowl, or half of the wins we have this season.

grotonsteel
12-20-2009, 09:59 PM
Ben can play smarter.

If he gets an OC who can convince him to get rid of the ball more quickly sometimes without stifling his improvisational skills, Ben may be one of the best EVER at the position.

As it is, he is among the top 10% of QB's in the league, but he has cost this team yards, sacks, and games himself plenty of times, and he will shorten his career if he doesn't quit playing hero.


If ben quits playing hero, we don't have a super bowl, or half of the wins we have this season.


:Agree :Clap :Clap

Flasteel
12-20-2009, 10:00 PM
Ben can play smarter.

If he gets an OC who can convince him to get rid of the ball more quickly sometimes without stifling his improvisational skills, Ben may be one of the best EVER at the position.

As it is, he is among the top 10% of QB's in the league, but he has cost this team yards, sacks, and games himself plenty of times, and he will shorten his career if he doesn't quit playing hero.

Absolute wrong time to come on here and start hating on Ben.

msp26505
12-20-2009, 10:05 PM
Ben can play smarter.

If he gets an OC who can convince him to get rid of the ball more quickly sometimes without stifling his improvisational skills, Ben may be one of the best EVER at the position.

As it is, he is among the top 10% of QB's in the league, but he has cost this team yards, sacks, and games himself plenty of times, and he will shorten his career if he doesn't quit playing hero.

Absolute wrong time to come on here and start hating on Ben.

Hating on Ben? Give me a freaking break.

I am a HUGE Ben supporter.

He is responsible for today's win (as well as dozens of others), but I certainly hope you don't think his game is perfect...

ramblinjim
12-20-2009, 10:07 PM
the last touchdown pass and catch were things of beauty. great game Ben!

skyhawk
12-20-2009, 10:10 PM
Ben played great.

He needs to learn to throw the ball away and quit giving up 5-10 yards and keeping the clock running (when an incomplete pass stops the clock on the final drive)

msp26505
12-20-2009, 10:12 PM
Ben played great.

He needs to learn to throw the ball away and quit giving up 5-10 yards and keeping the clock running (when an incomplete pass stops the clock on the final drive)

My point exactly.

DHSF
12-20-2009, 10:17 PM
First, Ben is a franschise QB and the way he is playing could very well be a HOF QB. That said, there are plays when he take the sack that he should have thrown the ball away. He is a great QB, but there is still room for improvement. I don't think anyone with a brain could question the quality of Ben. If the Steelers had a QB like him in the 90s, this team could already have 7 or more super bowls. If he could just learn when to get rid of the ball, he could be one of the greatest of all time. If he doesn't improve in this area, his career will be over before it should be. He needs to learn when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em.

papillon
12-20-2009, 10:21 PM
I've said this before and I'll say it again. When those of you who want Ben to throw it away, not take a sack, not do this or that accept the fact that he plays the position differently from any other quarterback who has ever played the game and enjoy what you see, Steeler games will be a lot more enjoyable for you.

I was one who was always on his him for holding the ball, taking a sack, not delivering it on time, etc, name his fault and I wanted him to correct it. Now, I just sit back and enjoy the show, sometimes it's as ugly as it is beautiful at other times, but it's how he plays and I hope he never changes.

Steeler football has never been so enjoyable and exciting for me, since, I've embraced his style of play. I hope he never changes a thing. I get an adrenaline rush like I've never had watching him play.

Enjoy the show, Ben's career may be short, It would be a shame if you don't embrace what you see.

Pappy

stlrz d
12-20-2009, 10:22 PM
Many of the sacks he takes are him just being dragged down. It's not like he's lit up on each and every sack.

NorthCoast
12-20-2009, 10:22 PM
I will make an open confession. On at least two of his sacks today I was cussing and cursing his name. Ben is very frustrating to watch but as I cooled down from this one it has occurred to me that it has been a very long time since we have had a QB that gives us a chance to win a come-from-behind game like this.
I suppose I will just need to learn to live with his good and bad. The strange thing is that Ben must realize the underneath stuff is there for the taking. The few times he did take it today, it turned into decent gains.
I will also grudgingly give Arians one thumb up for several very creative playcalls. The Moore TD was a thing of beauty. Wish we could see this type of playcalling on a more consistent basis.
BTW, anyone else notice the shot of Tomlin jawing to Ben as he was coming off the field after one of his sacks. Sure would like to know what he said, but Tomlin clearly was not happy at that point.

grotonsteel
12-20-2009, 10:24 PM
I've said this before and I'll say it again. When those of you who want Ben to throw it away, not take a sack, not do this or that accept the fact that he plays the position differently from any other quarterback who has ever played the game and enjoy what you see, Steeler games will be a lot more enjoyable for you.

I was one who was always on his him for holding the ball, taking a sack, not delivering it on time, etc, name his fault and I wanted him to correct it. Now, I just sit back and enjoy the show, sometimes it's as ugly as it is beautiful at other times, but it's how he plays and I hope he never changes.

Steeler football has never been so enjoyable and exciting for me, since, I've embraced his style of play. I hope he never changes a thing. I get an adrenaline rush like I've never had watching him play.

Enjoy the show, Ben's career may be short, It would be a shame if you don't embrace what you see.

Pappy

Very well said

I just don't understand why people want to turn Big Ben into something else...

grotonsteel
12-20-2009, 10:30 PM
First, Ben is a franschise QB and the way he is playing could very well be a HOF QB. That said, there are plays when he take the sack that he should have thrown the ball away. He is a great QB, but there is still room for improvement. I don't think anyone with a brain could question the quality of Ben. If the Steelers had a QB like him in the 90s, this team could already have 7 or more super bowls. If he could just learn when to get rid of the ball, he could be one of the greatest of all time. If he doesn't improve in this area, his career will be over before it should be. He needs to learn when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em.


You can't have it both ways.

Big Ben makes plays while holding the ball longer...He is not Peyton Manning or Tom Brady.

Big Ben is Big Ben ...NFL has never seen a QB like him. Enjoy the ride.

As far as Big Ben improving..no one is perfect. Big Ben is showing improvement each season.

BURGH86STEEL
12-20-2009, 10:31 PM
Where was this Ben against the Browns? I don't think anyone hates on Ben. He can be frustrating to watch at times. We know that his best is good enough. More consistency is what some of us want to see.

Flasteel
12-20-2009, 10:38 PM
Ben can play smarter.

If he gets an OC who can convince him to get rid of the ball more quickly sometimes without stifling his improvisational skills, Ben may be one of the best EVER at the position.

As it is, he is among the top 10% of QB's in the league, but he has cost this team yards, sacks, and games himself plenty of times, and he will shorten his career if he doesn't quit playing hero.

Absolute wrong time to come on here and start hating on Ben.

Hating on Ben? Give me a freaking break.

I am a HUGE Ben supporter.

He is responsible for today's win (as well as dozens of others), but I certainly hope you don't think his game is perfect...

No of course not.

I guess I was just trying to state that pointintg out negative aspects of his game after a day like today is just the wrong time. I actually agree (somewhat) with what you said. :D

papillon
12-20-2009, 10:42 PM
Where was this Ben against the Browns? I don't think anyone hates on Ben. He can be frustrating to watch at times. We know that his best is good enough. More consistency is what some of us want to see.

The Brown's game was the ugly part and today was the beautiful part and more often than not it's beautiful. This year, his ugly seems to come at the worst possible time. Today's game was beautiful, ugly, bad, unbelievable, great and any other adjective you can think of, but, man it was fun.

Pappy

Chadman
12-20-2009, 10:50 PM
Chadman doesn't care about the sacks, the frustration, the bad games.

Wouldn't change Ben for ANY OTHER QB in the NFL.

Not one.

He wins games like no other player Chadman has seen. The Steelers are a chance at winning EVERY SEASON that Ben plays QB for them.

Yes, there are times you'll want to ram him, head first, into the Heinz Field turf for being dumb- but chances are you'll smile more than you'll frown during his career.

This season's struggles are not on Ben.

feltdizz
12-20-2009, 10:51 PM
Where was this Ben against the Browns? I don't think anyone hates on Ben. He can be frustrating to watch at times. We know that his best is good enough. More consistency is what some of us want to see.

Shh... That game never happened. lol...

The problem is... People act like Ben can't be Ben and also do a few things other QB's do. I don't understand why Ben can't throw the ball away at times because he is Ben, yet we have seen him do it. Ben can't throw to Mend early but... today he did and Mend got 15 yards. Now when some fans say this they get the "Ben hater tag"

I don't understand why someone has to defend Ben taking a coverage sack to be a real fan...
Yet these same fans bash an OC or another player for a part of his game.

I'm no longer an Arians defender... He is terrible... but the defenders of everything Ben need to understand there are fans who do not put him above QB criticism.

It doesn't mean they are not true Steeler fans.

NorthCoast
12-20-2009, 10:52 PM
Where was this Ben against the Browns? I don't think anyone hates on Ben. He can be frustrating to watch at times. We know that his best is good enough. More consistency is what some of us want to see.

The Brown's game was the ugly part and today was the beautiful part and more often than not it's beautiful. This year, his ugly seems to come at the worst possible time. Today's game was beautiful, ugly, bad, unbelievable, great and any other adjective you can think of, but, man it was fun.

Pappy

Not to rehash past losses, but the Browns game was as much about coaching as it was about the players. They were talking on local radio here about how surprised the Steelers didn't throw more to the TE. The pass to the TE has been the Browns achilles heel ALL season and we threw to Heath a total of 5 times in that game.

papillon
12-20-2009, 10:54 PM
Where was this Ben against the Browns? I don't think anyone hates on Ben. He can be frustrating to watch at times. We know that his best is good enough. More consistency is what some of us want to see.

The Brown's game was the ugly part and today was the beautiful part and more often than not it's beautiful. This year, his ugly seems to come at the worst possible time. Today's game was beautiful, ugly, bad, unbelievable, great and any other adjective you can think of, but, man it was fun.

Pappy

Not to rehash past losses, but the Browns game was as much about coaching as it was about the players. They were talking on local radio here about how surprised the Steelers didn't throw more to the TE. The pass to the TE has been the Browns achilles heel ALL season and we threw to Heath a total of 5 times in that game.

Ben still played poorly in that game. It happens, not very often, but it happens.

Pappy

feltdizz
12-20-2009, 10:57 PM
Ben can play smarter.

If he gets an OC who can convince him to get rid of the ball more quickly sometimes without stifling his improvisational skills, Ben may be one of the best EVER at the position.

As it is, he is among the top 10% of QB's in the league, but he has cost this team yards, sacks, and games himself plenty of times, and he will shorten his career if he doesn't quit playing hero.

Absolute wrong time to come on here and start hating on Ben.

Hating on Ben? Give me a freaking break.

I am a HUGE Ben supporter.

He is responsible for today's win (as well as dozens of others), but I certainly hope you don't think his game is perfect...

No of course not.

I guess I was just trying to state that pointintg out negative aspects of his game after a day like today is just the wrong time. I actually agree (somewhat) with what you said. :D

I agree but there are people who waited 5 weeks for a win. They need to gloat!

skyhawk
12-20-2009, 11:02 PM
I wonder what Steve Young will say about this performance. Pretty good for a non-top 10 QB don't you think?

stlrz d
12-20-2009, 11:05 PM
Where was this Ben against the Browns? I don't think anyone hates on Ben. He can be frustrating to watch at times. We know that his best is good enough. More consistency is what some of us want to see.

Shh... That game never happened. lol...

The problem is... People act like Ben can't be Ben and also do a few things other QB's do. I don't understand why Ben can't throw the ball away at times because he is Ben, yet we have seen him do it. Ben can't throw to Mend early but... today he did and Mend got 15 yards. Now when some fans say this they get the "Ben hater tag"

I don't understand why someone has to defend Ben taking a coverage sack to be a real fan...
Yet these same fans bash an OC or another player for a part of his game.

I'm no longer an Arians defender... He is terrible... but the defenders of everything Ben need to understand there are fans who do not put him above QB criticism.

It doesn't mean they are not true Steeler fans.

You're looking at things with hindsight dude. As was pointed out earlier, you can't have it both ways. Ben holding onto the ball is how he makes amazing things happen. Sometimes those amazing things happen and sometimes he's sacked. The result can only be known after the fact. It doesn't work both ways...either he holds the ball or he doesn't.

As for checking down, he has been doing it all season...not just today.

NorthCoast
12-20-2009, 11:09 PM
But how many think the Packers err'd by only rushing 3 at the end? Cinci and the Browns showed the NFL how to beat Ben late and that is by sending the house and getting him to the ground.
Ben still need to make some amazing throws to finish but I wonder if it would have turned out differently with an all-out rush by GB at the end.

skyhawk
12-20-2009, 11:12 PM
But how many think the Packers err'd by only rushing 3 at the end? Cinci and the Browns showed the NFL how to beat Ben late and that is by sending the house and getting him to the ground.
Ben still need to make some amazing throws to finish but I wonder if it would have turned out differently with an all-out rush by GB at the end.

Excellent point. The Pack didn't study film enough. The Bengals laid out the blueprint on how to beat Ben. Rush 5-6 and play receivers 1-1.

Ben made some sweet throws today. On the final drive the Packers were playing good defense and still got beat.

papillon
12-20-2009, 11:29 PM
But how many think the Packers err'd by only rushing 3 at the end? Cinci and the Browns showed the NFL how to beat Ben late and that is by sending the house and getting him to the ground.
Ben still need to make some amazing throws to finish but I wonder if it would have turned out differently with an all-out rush by GB at the end.

Not me, Ben was hot today and one-on-one coverage would have been torched by Ben as well. He played a great game. The only places in the cover-2 in the endzone that you don't really have double coverage are on the boundaries; Ben and Mike made a once in season play to win the game.

Pappy

papillon
12-20-2009, 11:29 PM
But how many think the Packers err'd by only rushing 3 at the end? Cinci and the Browns showed the NFL how to beat Ben late and that is by sending the house and getting him to the ground.
Ben still need to make some amazing throws to finish but I wonder if it would have turned out differently with an all-out rush by GB at the end.

Not me, Ben was hot today and one-on-one coverage would have been torched by Ben as well. He played a great game. The only places in the cover-2 in the endzone that you don't really have double coverage are on the boundaries; Ben and Mike made a once in season play to win the game.

Pappy

feltdizz
12-21-2009, 01:10 AM
You're looking at things with hindsight dude. As was pointed out earlier, you can't have it both ways. Ben holding onto the ball is how he makes amazing things happen. Sometimes those amazing things happen and sometimes he's sacked. The result can only be known after the fact. It doesn't work both ways...either he holds the ball or he doesn't.

As for checking down, he has been doing it all season...not just today.

Hmm.... I agree to disagree... I don't see it as one way or no way...
I love havng him as a QB but I don't have to like the sacks.

However regarding the checkdowns... Ben does checkdown more now...
But throwing to mendenhall early like he did today on that one play was brand new and refreshing to see. We will make the playoffs if he does that the next 2 weeks. Ben used to look at Mend then try to find something deep. I shed a tear when he did that.

sd steel
12-21-2009, 03:35 AM
I love our poor leader.


I agree. great game! It shouldn't have been close, but it was fun to watch!

sd steel
12-21-2009, 03:49 AM
I love our poor leader.

But does this mean that Arians is a great OC?

frankthetank1
12-21-2009, 09:17 AM
Where was this Ben against the Browns? I don't think anyone hates on Ben. He can be frustrating to watch at times. We know that his best is good enough. More consistency is what some of us want to see.

where was the entire offense in the browns game? most of the sacks ben took in that game were on the o-line not him. i agree he could improve in a couple areas but so could every player. ben is an elite qb there is no doubt about that. i hate it when he takes sacks too but he makes so many plays when he gets away from the pressure. i'll take the sacks every day

stlrz d
12-21-2009, 09:51 AM
You're looking at things with hindsight dude. As was pointed out earlier, you can't have it both ways. Ben holding onto the ball is how he makes amazing things happen. Sometimes those amazing things happen and sometimes he's sacked. The result can only be known after the fact. It doesn't work both ways...either he holds the ball or he doesn't.

As for checking down, he has been doing it all season...not just today.

Hmm.... I agree to disagree... I don't see it as one way or no way...
I love havng him as a QB but I don't have to like the sacks.

However regarding the checkdowns... Ben does checkdown more now...
But throwing to mendenhall early like he did today on that one play was brand new and refreshing to see. We will make the playoffs if he does that the next 2 weeks. Ben used to look at Mend then try to find something deep. I shed a tear when he did that.

There's no disagreeing dude. He extends plays. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. If he throws the ball away it never works.

See, you see him get sacked and you say, "He should have thrown the ball away." Then when he escapes the sack you say, "Great play to get away and make something happen." What you fail to see is that he's doing the same thing in both cases but it doesn't always work.

And throwing to Mendy was not brand new. He's been starting since week 4 and he's only been on the field in passing situations...and he's got 23 catches. Moore has catches. Parker has some. Heath has some short catches that he turned into longer gains too. It's not new.

Slapstick
12-21-2009, 10:20 AM
Ben has joined a fraternity of three QBs:

Y.A. Tittle, Warren Moon and Ben...

These three have thrown for 500+ yards, 3 TDs and no INTs in a single game.

How freakin' cool is that?

feltdizz
12-21-2009, 12:04 PM
[quote="stlrz d":3ao71mxi]

You're looking at things with hindsight dude. As was pointed out earlier, you can't have it both ways. Ben holding onto the ball is how he makes amazing things happen. Sometimes those amazing things happen and sometimes he's sacked. The result can only be known after the fact. It doesn't work both ways...either he holds the ball or he doesn't.

As for checking down, he has been doing it all season...not just today.

Hmm.... I agree to disagree... I don't see it as one way or no way...
I love havng him as a QB but I don't have to like the sacks.

However regarding the checkdowns... Ben does checkdown more now...
But throwing to mendenhall early like he did today on that one play was brand new and refreshing to see. We will make the playoffs if he does that the next 2 weeks. Ben used to look at Mend then try to find something deep. I shed a tear when he did that.

There's no disagreeing dude. He extends plays. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. If he throws the ball away it never works.

See, you see him get sacked and you say, "He should have thrown the ball away." Then when he escapes the sack you say, "Great play to get away and make something happen." What you fail to see is that he's doing the same thing in both cases but it doesn't always work.

And throwing to Mendy was not brand new. He's been starting since week 4 and he's only been on the field in passing situations...and he's got 23 catches. Moore has catches. Parker has some. Heath has some short catches that he turned into longer gains too. It's not new.[/quote:3ao71mxi]

Wrong AGAIN!!! When Ben holds the ball and before he escapes the sack I'm screaming throw it...I'm always screaming throw it because I never know if he will escape the sack...

Now here is where I point out your dumb genius idiot guruness..LOL! How can you jump on other people about Ben holding the ball... yet be the main one pointing out how Ben needs to throw the deep ball earlier? Both ways lately? You are quick to correct others and even Ben in this instance but if anyone else says throw the ball... you get all tight in the pants. Ben is not just your QB...

and...Throwing EARLY to Mendenhall is BRAND FREAKING NEW... go back and show me 3 times when Ben threw early in his read to Mend this year.. I'm not talking stat line proof of passes.. I'm talking situational in game passes to Mend.

Did we win yesterday? Damn.. happy holidays

proudpittsburgher
12-21-2009, 01:30 PM
I honestly can not believe we are having this discussion about Ben. Not even because he threw for 500 yards yesterday, but the overall discussion.


See, you see him get sacked and you say, "He should have thrown the ball away." Then when he escapes the sack you say, "Great play to get away and make something happen." What you fail to see is that he's doing the same thing in both cases but it doesn't always work.

I agree with this comment wholeheartedly, and I honestly can't stand those who are looking for perfection ot of a QB. Pretty much everyone not named Peyton Manning has flaws from the quarterback position. And even him . . . how would you like it if your QB folded like a a 7 2 offsuit any time a defender gets to within three feet of him, or throws the ball into the stands just to avoid being touched. Do you realy think that Peyton manning could make 20 percent of the plays Ben makes when coverage is good off the snap and the QB needs to make something happen? Never. gonna. happen.

Some people on here need a bit of reality . . . who else would you like to see lead this team?

Sugar
12-21-2009, 01:54 PM
It's funny- I sat and watched the game yesterday with a guy who ripped Ben for wearing gloves, saying that he would be better without them. Even after over 500 yards passing he insisted that he could have been better if not for the infernal gloves.

There's just no pleasing everyone. It's cool. I'm just really happy to get a win in a fantastic game.

NWNewell
12-21-2009, 02:03 PM
[quote="stlrz d":wf2mnhin]

You're looking at things with hindsight dude. As was pointed out earlier, you can't have it both ways. Ben holding onto the ball is how he makes amazing things happen. Sometimes those amazing things happen and sometimes he's sacked. The result can only be known after the fact. It doesn't work both ways...either he holds the ball or he doesn't.

As for checking down, he has been doing it all season...not just today.

Hmm.... I agree to disagree... I don't see it as one way or no way...
I love havng him as a QB but I don't have to like the sacks.

However regarding the checkdowns... Ben does checkdown more now...
But throwing to mendenhall early like he did today on that one play was brand new and refreshing to see. We will make the playoffs if he does that the next 2 weeks. Ben used to look at Mend then try to find something deep. I shed a tear when he did that.

There's no disagreeing dude. He extends plays. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. If he throws the ball away it never works.

See, you see him get sacked and you say, "He should have thrown the ball away." Then when he escapes the sack you say, "Great play to get away and make something happen." What you fail to see is that he's doing the same thing in both cases but it doesn't always work.

And throwing to Mendy was not brand new. He's been starting since week 4 and he's only been on the field in passing situations...and he's got 23 catches. Moore has catches. Parker has some. Heath has some short catches that he turned into longer gains too. It's not new.

Wrong AGAIN!!! When Ben holds the ball and before he escapes the sack I'm screaming throw it...I'm always screaming throw it because I never know if he will escape the sack...

Now here is where I point out your dumb genius idiot guruness..LOL! How can you jump on other people about Ben holding the ball... yet be the main one pointing out how Ben needs to throw the deep ball earlier? Both ways lately? You are quick to correct others and even Ben in this instance but if anyone else says throw the ball... you get all tight in the pants. Ben is not just your QB...

and...Throwing EARLY to Mendenhall is BRAND FREAKING NEW... go back and show me 3 times when Ben threw early in his read to Mend this year.. I'm not talking stat line proof of passes.. I'm talking situational in game passes to Mend.

Did we win yesterday? Damn.. happy holidays[/quote:wf2mnhin]

This is an argument that can't be won.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. Ultimately, it comes down to letting the QB skin the cat the best way he knows how.

There are tacticians and efficient QB's like Payton and Brady. That is most typical and more traditional way that the QB position is played.

Then there are the Elway and Roethlisburger styles. The net gain and production can often be similar. But it is less efficient and to some extent more frustrating because the standard deviation from play to play or series to series is much greater.

Some prefer one method over the other. Most, including myself, would like to see a little more efficiency worked into Ben's game. But the problem is that is not in his nature and goes against his instincts and what he excels at. So if you try to put that square peg in a round hole, his overall production and results will most likely be significantly less.

If you tried to coach Manning or Brady to play like Ben, then would be terrible. Likewise, if you try to coach Ben to be too much like Manning or Brady, he would perform far worse.

Let Ben play to the style that allows him to be most productive, even if the production comes in chunks.

Don't get me wrong, there are some situations that I wish he would handle better, like taking a sack when it knocks you out of FG range. I think he has to be more aware of where he is on the field and make an extra effort to throw it away when they already have a good chance of coming away with a FG. Other than that, I won't want to coach him away from his natural instincts too much.

feltdizz
12-21-2009, 02:19 PM
NW I agree... I just understand why it's OK for someone to say Ben should throw the deep ball earlier... Yet in other situations when a fan wants Ben to throw earlier he is said to not understand how Ben plays the game.

I don't think anyone outside of the trolls want to replace Ben or prefer another QB. I'll take ugly and SB's over perfection and playoff losses everyday of the week.

But since this is a discussion board... we can all debate without claiming one way is rght and the other is wrong.

NWNewell
12-21-2009, 03:09 PM
NW I agree... I just understand why it's OK for someone to say Ben should throw the deep ball earlier... Yet in other situations when a fan wants Ben to throw earlier he is said to not understand how Ben plays the game.

I don't think anyone outside of the trolls want to replace Ben or prefer another QB. I'll take ugly and SB's over perfection and playoff losses everyday of the week.

But since this is a discussion board... we can all debate without claiming one way is rght and the other is wrong.

fair enough.... :Cheers

cruzer8
12-21-2009, 05:40 PM
NW I agree... I just understand why it's OK for someone to say Ben should throw the deep ball earlier... Yet in other situations when a fan wants Ben to throw earlier he is said to not understand how Ben plays the game.

I don't think anyone outside of the trolls want to replace Ben or prefer another QB. I'll take ugly and SB's over perfection and playoff losses everyday of the week.

But since this is a discussion board... we can all debate without claiming one way is rght and the other is wrong.

There's a difference between the two and you don't seem to be making the connection.

Asking Ben to throw the ball sooner in the play is different than asking him to throw the ball sooner deep when a WR is open. It seems obvious to me. Based on what I read you want Ben to quit extending plays, which is what makes him Ben. Stlrs is only pointing out that on the deep passes he needs to trust that his receivers are open so the ball can be delivered to hit them in stride. Those two things are very different.

Captain Lemming
12-21-2009, 06:58 PM
The problem is... People act like Ben can't be Ben and also do a few things other QB's do. I don't understand why Ben can't throw the ball away at times because he is Ben, yet we have seen him do it.


Dizz, it is either or. He cannot make those amazing plays breaking out of someones grasp to throw a TD "if" he routinely throws the ball away for fear of a sack.

Ben can't throw to Mend early but... today he did and Mend got 15 yards.

I agree here. If he can get a first down rather than go deep and risk a sack, I'll take that.

feltdizz
12-21-2009, 09:27 PM
NW I agree... I just understand why it's OK for someone to say Ben should throw the deep ball earlier... Yet in other situations when a fan wants Ben to throw earlier he is said to not understand how Ben plays the game.

I don't think anyone outside of the trolls want to replace Ben or prefer another QB. I'll take ugly and SB's over perfection and playoff losses everyday of the week.

But since this is a discussion board... we can all debate without claiming one way is rght and the other is wrong.

There's a difference between the two and you don't seem to be making the connection.

Asking Ben to throw the ball sooner in the play is different than asking him to throw the ball sooner deep when a WR is open. It seems obvious to me. Based on what I read you want Ben to quit extending plays, which is what makes him Ben. Stlrs is only pointing out that on the deep passes he needs to trust that his receivers are open so the ball can be delivered to hit them in stride. Those two things are very different.

First off... The argument about Ben holding the ball is never about him always throwing it away or never extending the play.... It has always been about wanting Ben to not take sacks in FG range or throwing a few passes away to save field position or saving Ben's head from 40+ sacks every season... and also getting Mend in the flat early so he has room to run.

As far as throwing the deep ball earlier... To do this he has to throw before the playe is open and trust he will outrun the defender....

I just used this thread to joke a guy who jumps on people who want Ben to throw the ball earlier yet also wants Ben to throw the ball earlier..

In reality we all love when Ben extends plays.. But when he doesn't escape what Steeler fan applauds the sack?

stlrz d
12-21-2009, 09:33 PM
NW I agree... I just understand why it's OK for someone to say Ben should throw the deep ball earlier... Yet in other situations when a fan wants Ben to throw earlier he is said to not understand how Ben plays the game.

I don't think anyone outside of the trolls want to replace Ben or prefer another QB. I'll take ugly and SB's over perfection and playoff losses everyday of the week.

But since this is a discussion board... we can all debate without claiming one way is rght and the other is wrong.

There's a difference between the two and you don't seem to be making the connection.

Asking Ben to throw the ball sooner in the play is different than asking him to throw the ball sooner deep when a WR is open. It seems obvious to me. Based on what I read you want Ben to quit extending plays, which is what makes him Ben. Stlrs is only pointing out that on the deep passes he needs to trust that his receivers are open so the ball can be delivered to hit them in stride. Those two things are very different.

First off... The argument about Ben holding the ball is never about him always throwing it away or never extending the play.... It has always been about wanting Ben to not take sacks in FG range or throwing a few passes away to save field position or saving Ben's head from 40+ sacks every season... and also getting Mend in the flat early so he has room to run.

As far as throwing the deep ball earlier... To do this he has to throw before the playe is open and trust he will outrun the defender....

I just used this thread to joke a guy who jumps on people who want Ben to throw the ball earlier yet also wants Ben to throw the ball earlier..

In reality we all love when Ben extends plays.. But when he doesn't escape what Steeler fan applauds the sack?

The only joke is that you can't seem to understand the difference between what you're asking for from Ben and what I'm asking for.

I'm glad at least two other people in this thread get it though.

This isn't worth continuing though so have fun continuing to prove your lack of understanding...I'm out.

feltdizz
12-21-2009, 09:46 PM
[quote]The problem is... People act like Ben can't be Ben and also do a few things other QB's do. I don't understand why Ben can't throw the ball away at times because he is Ben, yet we have seen him do it.


Dizz, it is either or. He cannot make those amazing plays breaking out of someones grasp to throw a TD "if" he routinely throws the ball away for fear of a sack.

Ben can't throw to Mend early but... today he did and Mend got 15 yards.

I agree here. If he can get a first down rather than go deep and risk a sack, I'll take that.[/quote:17q32305]

how does "some of the time" mean "all the time" though cap? I think we are all intelligent fans here and realize when a person says I wish he would do this a little more or that a little less it doesn't mean never try to extend a play or I hate him, he sucks.

It means in 16 games... After 2 SB's and much success why does "throw a few balls away" mean turn into Peyton or Eli?

When you say you would Ben to pass to Mend I don't say he isn't Trent Edwards..
When StlrD says he should throw the deep ball earlier I don't say but he isn't Culpepper throwing to Moss...

It's not either or... I won't let a few guys change my words into "all the time" while there suggestions are given as tidbits of love

feltdizz
12-21-2009, 09:49 PM
Thanks D... You proved my point. All we are doing is asking on a discussion board.