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View Full Version : Am I too negative? ... that first "long" ball by Ben today



SanAntonioSteelerFan
12-20-2009, 05:32 PM
Wallace's TD catch ... great play, but seemed like Ben underthrew that one big time too, we almost lost the completion.

Can't he use his 245 pounds to heave it way down field?

P.S. This was typed just a minute or two into the game ... GO STEELERS!!

BATMAN
12-20-2009, 05:35 PM
Bens not a big throw passer in my opinion. He can throw it like a dart but for timing a rainbow, not too many to Bens credit in my opinion.

stlrz d
12-20-2009, 06:14 PM
He threw it as far as he could.

The problem is not throwing it soon enough. If Wallace is even with his man he has him beat. Ben needs to learn to trust that. If he throws that ball 15 yards sooner then Wallace catches it in stride. Instead he waits until Wallace has his man beat by 3 steps...which means Wallace is too far down the field for Ben to hit him in stride.

skyhawk
12-21-2009, 01:00 AM
Ben has thrown short on his deep balls his entire career.

stlrz d
12-21-2009, 09:36 AM
Ben has thrown short on his deep balls his entire career.

He threw one to Ward where he hit him in stride. Because Ward was open the whole way so he didn't hesitate.

It's simple physics. If you can only throw a ball 50 yards then you have to throw it to time it when the WR gets to that 50 yard point for him to get it in stride. If you throw it when the WR is almost at 50 yards then because you are throwing it as far as you can the WR will have to come back to it.

SteelAbility
12-21-2009, 09:48 AM
It was underthrown but it was thrown the way a long ball should be thrown - with lots of pace on it. That pace made it extremely difficult for the defender to get into proper position to get a touch on it and allowed Wallace to make use of the advantage he had established.

Prior to this Ben has been getting lots of air on his long ball. Not that one. Now if he can keep trajectory and improve the timing, all kinds of stuff will open up. We saw that already last night. That was a great play-call for once on the opening play. The deep threat was established. All kinds of 15-20 yards stuff opened up.

Oviedo
12-21-2009, 09:53 AM
Looking at the replay it looked like Ben threw with all arm. He didn't look like he stepped into it and drove threw his delivery.

As pointed out, Ben is not a great deep ball thrower. I've been saying it for years. He habitually underthrows.

stlrz d
12-21-2009, 09:58 AM
Ovie, you are correct that it was all arm.

And I'm not a physicist, but one day you guys WILL understand the physics and realize that if a guy is throwing as far as he can to point A but the WR is already beyond a certain point that the ball will not get to the WR in stride...it's simply not possible.

There is a difference between throwing late and underthrowing.

The pass to Wallace should have been thrown when Wallace was around the 30 YL but Ben didn't let it go until Wallace was around the 20.

Late.

It's more about trusting a receiver to get open than a lack of arm strength. Go back and look at the play again...that ball travels a looooooooong way through the air. It was a 60 yard pass that Wallace caught at the 10. Ben was behind the LOS. That ball traveled at least 60 yards through the air, with Wallace carrying it the last 10 into the EZ.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
12-21-2009, 10:50 AM
He threw it as far as he could.

The problem is not throwing it soon enough. If Wallace is even with his man he has him beat. Ben needs to learn to trust that. If he throws that ball 15 yards sooner then Wallace catches it in stride. Instead he waits until Wallace has his man beat by 3 steps...which means Wallace is too far down the field for Ben to hit him in stride.

You hit it. Also, Ben doesn't throw a tight ball too often with gloves. So..Given the fact he was wearing gloves doesn't help the long ball. To much hand grip hurts the spiral and the flutter has more resistance in the air. Helps with the velocity and accurancy in the
short-medium in bad conditions. Kind of a trade off but the majority of passes are the short-medium throws so the glove is a good choice.

NWNewell
12-21-2009, 11:07 AM
[quote="stlrz d":2ho1654o]He threw it as far as he could.

The problem is not throwing it soon enough. If Wallace is even with his man he has him beat. Ben needs to learn to trust that. If he throws that ball 15 yards sooner then Wallace catches it in stride. Instead he waits until Wallace has his man beat by 3 steps...which means Wallace is too far down the field for Ben to hit him in stride.

You hit it. Also, Ben doesn't throw a tight ball too often with gloves. So..Given the fact he was wearing gloves doesn't help the long ball. To much hand grip hurts the spiral and the flutter has more resistance in the air. Helps with the velocity and accurancy in the
short-medium in bad conditions. Kind of a trade off but the majority of passes are the short-medium throws so the glove is a good choice.[/quote:2ho1654o]

I agree....it was about 57 yards in the air. (from their own 33 to about the 10 yd line).

Putting it 60-70 yards in the air is a nice ball for any QB. I don't know that Ben is at the top of the list when it comes to arm strength. And as JPN said, it wasn't a very tight ball and probably cost him some distance. Could have been because of the gloves, or because of the cold weather, or just that 60 yds is pressing the limit of is controllable range.

If he recognizes Wallace getting opened earlier and lets it go, Wallace would run right through the catch at the 10 yard line with about 10 yards between him in the defender and its an easy TD. As stlrs d and others have said, that is the real issue.

But hey, everyone complains about Ben underthrowing this, or that. Putting up some great numbers and is 5th in the league in 40+ pass plays, 6th in 20+ pass plays. So I while he may not throw the best deep ball in the league, it's still well above average.

Flasteel
12-21-2009, 11:09 AM
[quote="stlrz d":3omxmqbb]He threw it as far as he could.

The problem is not throwing it soon enough. If Wallace is even with his man he has him beat. Ben needs to learn to trust that. If he throws that ball 15 yards sooner then Wallace catches it in stride. Instead he waits until Wallace has his man beat by 3 steps...which means Wallace is too far down the field for Ben to hit him in stride.

You hit it. Also, Ben doesn't throw a tight ball too often with gloves. So..Given the fact he was wearing gloves doesn't help the long ball. To much hand grip hurts the spiral and the flutter has more resistance in the air. Helps with the velocity and accurancy in the
short-medium in bad conditions. Kind of a trade off but the majority of passes are the short-medium throws so the glove is a good choice.[/quote:3omxmqbb]


Uhh...I can throw a ball 50 yards. I don't think he threw it as far as he could. Granted, I'm not sure of the wind direction as I sit here and type this but I'm pretty sure he can chuck the ball further than that.

NorthCoast
12-21-2009, 11:21 AM
[quote="stlrz d":9buq56wn]He threw it as far as he could.

The problem is not throwing it soon enough. If Wallace is even with his man he has him beat. Ben needs to learn to trust that. If he throws that ball 15 yards sooner then Wallace catches it in stride. Instead he waits until Wallace has his man beat by 3 steps...which means Wallace is too far down the field for Ben to hit him in stride.

You hit it. Also, Ben doesn't throw a tight ball too often with gloves. So..Given the fact he was wearing gloves doesn't help the long ball. To much hand grip hurts the spiral and the flutter has more resistance in the air. Helps with the velocity and accurancy in the
short-medium in bad conditions. Kind of a trade off but the majority of passes are the short-medium throws so the glove is a good choice.

I agree....it was about 57 yards in the air. (from their own 33 to about the 10 yd line).

Putting it 60-70 yards in the air is a nice ball for any QB. I don't know that Ben is at the top of the list when it comes to arm strength. And as JPN said, it wasn't a very tight ball and probably cost him some distance. Could have been because of the gloves, or because of the cold weather, or just that 60 yds is pressing the limit of is controllable range.

If he recognizes Wallace getting opened earlier and lets it go, Wallace would run right through the catch at the 10 yard line with about 10 yards between him in the defender and its an easy TD. As stlrs d and others have said, that is the real issue.

But hey, everyone complains about Ben underthrowing this, or that. Putting up some great numbers and is 5th in the league in 40+ pass plays, 6th in 20+ pass plays. So I while he may not throw the best deep ball in the league, it's still well above average.[/quote:9buq56wn]

What none of us knows is whether Wallace is the primary on these plays. As has already been written up, Wallace was the 4 option on the final touchdown. Ben looked elsewhere first. If Wallace is the 3rd option on the first TD maybe Ben doesn't see him until late. If Ben takes 2-3 sec to scan his first 2 or 3 options and Wallace has 4.3 40 speed he is already 30 yds down field, add the ball taking another sec to get there and you can see that the only way to hit in stride is Wallace being the 1st option. Wallace almost has too much speed for some of these fly patterns.

BTW, had a question for anyone that knows the rules. Has a WR in motion at the snap been outlawed? It seems we never use this option to try to free someone up off the line. With Holmes and Wallace speed this could counteract the CBs roughing them up so much in press coverage. Anyone else notice there was a lot of that by GB last night?

NWNewell
12-21-2009, 11:22 AM
[quote="stlrz d":f4msjjyt]He threw it as far as he could.

The problem is not throwing it soon enough. If Wallace is even with his man he has him beat. Ben needs to learn to trust that. If he throws that ball 15 yards sooner then Wallace catches it in stride. Instead he waits until Wallace has his man beat by 3 steps...which means Wallace is too far down the field for Ben to hit him in stride.

You hit it. Also, Ben doesn't throw a tight ball too often with gloves. So..Given the fact he was wearing gloves doesn't help the long ball. To much hand grip hurts the spiral and the flutter has more resistance in the air. Helps with the velocity and accurancy in the
short-medium in bad conditions. Kind of a trade off but the majority of passes are the short-medium throws so the glove is a good choice.

I agree....it was about 57 yards in the air. (from their own 33 to about the 10 yd line).

Putting it 60-70 yards in the air is a nice ball for any QB. I don't know that Ben is at the top of the list when it comes to arm strength. And as JPN said, it wasn't a very tight ball and probably cost him some distance. Could have been because of the gloves, or because of the cold weather, or just that 60 yds is pressing the limit of is controllable range.

If he recognizes Wallace getting opened earlier and lets it go, Wallace would run right through the catch at the 10 yard line with about 10 yards between him in the defender and its an easy TD. As stlrs d and others have said, that is the real issue.

But hey, everyone complains about Ben underthrowing this, or that. Putting up some great numbers and is 5th in the league in 40+ pass plays, 6th in 20+ pass plays. So I while he may not throw the best deep ball in the league, it's still well above average.

What none of us knows is whether Wallace is the primary on these plays. As has already been written up, Wallace was the 4 option on the final touchdown. Ben looked elsewhere first. If Wallace is the 3rd option on the first TD maybe Ben doesn't see him until late. If Ben takes 2-3 sec to scan his first 2 or 3 options and Wallace has 4.3 40 speed he is already 30 yds down field, add the ball taking another sec to get there and you can see that the only way to hit in stride is Wallace being the 1st option. Wallace almost has too much speed for some of these fly patterns.

[/quote:f4msjjyt]

Good point.

Though on the specific play in question, the play action boot leg, I think they were looking down the field and I have a feeling Wallace was easily in the top two reads. But then again, the amount of time it takes Ben to fake, roll out, and set... Wallace is still probably 30 yards down field.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
12-21-2009, 11:35 AM
[quote="stlrz d":1lkaywj6]He threw it as far as he could.

The problem is not throwing it soon enough. If Wallace is even with his man he has him beat. Ben needs to learn to trust that. If he throws that ball 15 yards sooner then Wallace catches it in stride. Instead he waits until Wallace has his man beat by 3 steps...which means Wallace is too far down the field for Ben to hit him in stride.

You hit it. Also, Ben doesn't throw a tight ball too often with gloves. So..Given the fact he was wearing gloves doesn't help the long ball. To much hand grip hurts the spiral and the flutter has more resistance in the air. Helps with the velocity and accurancy in the
short-medium in bad conditions. Kind of a trade off but the majority of passes are the short-medium throws so the glove is a good choice.


Uhh...I can throw a ball 50 yards. I don't think he threw it as far as he could. Granted, I'm not sure of the wind direction as I sit here and type this but I'm pretty sure he can chuck the ball further than that.[/quote:1lkaywj6]
Throwing the ball 50 yards is not a big accomplishment because many people could do that. Remember JL Williams could throw the ball across the field from his knees. Getting it that distance with coverage is a different story. Accuracy is what seperates. 50 yards in a 5 yard cube is more difficult. Ben was rolling right to the sideline and stopped to throw. Wasn't like a hail mary or QB challenge throw where you get a running shot vertically to throw. That looked like all Ben had given the situation. Sunny September day with no glove it may be 5-10 longer. But to the point, most of the times he just need to get the ball out sooner. He likes to pull the safety with his eyes and then launch it. Wallace can cover alot of ground quickly so it's a timing thing. Arians could help the situation too by changing the routes. Having him run a flag or wheel route from the slot or a post corner from the outside will keep him in Ben's range longer. Little things...

feltdizz
12-21-2009, 11:42 AM
He threw it as far as he could.

The problem is not throwing it soon enough. If Wallace is even with his man he has him beat. Ben needs to learn to trust that. If he throws that ball 15 yards sooner then Wallace catches it in stride. Instead he waits until Wallace has his man beat by 3 steps...which means Wallace is too far down the field for Ben to hit him in stride.

why are you criticizing Ben after a TD pass? :wink:

Ben is going to be Ben.. just enjoy it. :Cheers

NWNewell
12-21-2009, 11:47 AM
He threw it as far as he could.

The problem is not throwing it soon enough. If Wallace is even with his man he has him beat. Ben needs to learn to trust that. If he throws that ball 15 yards sooner then Wallace catches it in stride. Instead he waits until Wallace has his man beat by 3 steps...which means Wallace is too far down the field for Ben to hit him in stride.

why are you criticizing Ben after a TD pass? :wink:

Ben is going to be Ben.. just enjoy it. :Cheers

Folks just trying to kick the fly **** out of the pepper, my friend.

Silly when you can see a big old bear crap if you look in another location, I agree.

:Cheers

Northern_Blitz
12-21-2009, 11:51 AM
He threw it as far as he could.

The problem is not throwing it soon enough. If Wallace is even with his man he has him beat. Ben needs to learn to trust that. If he throws that ball 15 yards sooner then Wallace catches it in stride. Instead he waits until Wallace has his man beat by 3 steps...which means Wallace is too far down the field for Ben to hit him in stride.

I think that this is often true. But, I don't think it was the case on this play.

The play was a designed roll out. I didn't record the game, but it looked to me like Ben threw it as soon as he had rolled out.

The "problem" is Wallace is just so fast, he'd already gotten to the edge of Ben's range. People are saying that he threw it with mostly arm. If that's true, maybe part of the reason he didn't set as well as he could have. If he take the time to set, then is Wallace another 15 - 20 yards down field?

Steeler Mafia
12-21-2009, 01:04 PM
"Ben doesn't underthrow his receivers" :stirpot

flippy
12-21-2009, 01:09 PM
Ben's just now a hit your receiver in stride kind of QB. But he's very accurate at getting the ball downfield in large chunks. I can live with the kind of QB he is.

I'd just like to see him avoid taking sacks for losses in certain situations and get rid of the ball better. The Cleveland game is a great example, he gets sacked 8 times, yet his improv didn't add more to that game to make up for those sacks.

NWNewell
12-21-2009, 01:29 PM
Ben's just now a hit your receiver in stride kind of QB. But he's very accurate at getting the ball downfield in large chunks. I can live with the kind of QB he is.

I'd just like to see him avoid taking sacks for losses in certain situations and get rid of the ball better.

I agree... to some extent. The only time I'd like to see him get ride of the ball quicker is when we're bairly in field goal range. I can live with the sacks, especially on 3rd down when if we don't convert we are punting either way. But it really hurts when it turns a 35-40 yard FG try into a 45-50 yarder. Those are the ones that really bother me.

Other than that... I'll take the trade off we get from that double edged sword.

cruzer8
12-21-2009, 02:00 PM
[quote="stlrz d":13r3ee6w]He threw it as far as he could.

The problem is not throwing it soon enough. If Wallace is even with his man he has him beat. Ben needs to learn to trust that. If he throws that ball 15 yards sooner then Wallace catches it in stride. Instead he waits until Wallace has his man beat by 3 steps...which means Wallace is too far down the field for Ben to hit him in stride.

I think that this is often true. But, I don't think it was the case on this play.

The play was a designed roll out. I didn't record the game, but it looked to me like Ben threw it as soon as he had rolled out.

The "problem" is Wallace is just so fast, he'd already gotten to the edge of Ben's range. People are saying that he threw it with mostly arm. If that's true, maybe part of the reason he didn't set as well as he could have. If he take the time to set, then is Wallace another 15 - 20 yards down field?[/quote:13r3ee6w]

It absolutely was the case. Look at the play again. Ben waits until Wallace is past his man before he throws it.

feltdizz
12-21-2009, 03:16 PM
How can Ben throw the deep ball sooner if fans are OK with him holding the ball to make plays? :stirpot

I'm joking... But it's a chicken or the egg scenario... He holds the ball to make plays but he should throw it sooner...lol

stlrz d
12-21-2009, 09:46 PM
How can Ben throw the deep ball sooner if fans are OK with him holding the ball to make plays? :stirpot

I'm joking... But it's a chicken or the egg scenario... He holds the ball to make plays but he should throw it sooner...lol

Some people will just never get it.

For the very last time, there is a HUGE difference between "throw the ball sooner so you don't take a sack...or break out of the sack and make a play" and "throw the ball sooner to a deep WR who is open so it hits him in stride".

el oh el.

:roll:

ps - you're embarrassing yourself.

feltdizz
12-21-2009, 10:04 PM
How can Ben throw the deep ball sooner if fans are OK with him holding the ball to make plays? :stirpot

I'm joking... But it's a chicken or the egg scenario... He holds the ball to make plays but he should throw it sooner...lol

Some people will just never get it.

For the very last time, there is a HUGE difference between "throw the ball sooner so you don't take a sack...or break out of the sack and make a play" and "throw the ball sooner to a deep WR who is open so it hits him in stride".

el oh el.

:roll:

Haha... Let Ben be Ben... why are you trying to change him? he throws the deep ball late... holds onto the ball to extend plays... and takes sacks trying to make plays.

Why fix what isn't broken right? When he stops throwing the deep ball late he won't be Ben...

In every other instance you tend to defend the way he plays but your one suggestion is right and every other one is wrong. I'm messing with you D because you don't see it. You turn my suggestion for throwing a few passes away.. usually posted after a 5 sack loss or an 8 sack loss and turn it into totally transforming Ben as a QB amd wanting him to throw passes away like a scared sissy.

I'm done messing with you. Ben played great. Go Steelers.

ps - you're embarrassing yourself.

SidSmythe
12-21-2009, 10:52 PM
That was a play action play. It's more of a timing issue.
Ben waits a tad too long and Wallace isn't patient w/ his route. He should be selling the run and w/ his speed he shouldn't have a problem getting downfield.