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View Full Version : Has Ben peaked without a change in study habits?



SanAntonioSteelerFan
12-11-2009, 01:07 AM
None of us know for sure, but there sure is a lot of talk about how little time Ben spends in the film room. Heck, I remember an interview where he all but bragged about how "he'd rather do his learning on the field", or something pretty much like that.

I can't help think that a Payton Manning, or Brady would have been able to read the defenses tonight and make huge plays. But Ben ... if it's not there, he doesn't seem to know where to look for it.

Pure physical talent isn't enough, IMO.

sd steel
12-11-2009, 01:09 AM
None of us know for sure, but there sure is a lot of talk about how little time Ben spends in the film room. Heck, I remember an interview where he all but bragged about how "he'd rather do his learning on the field", or something pretty much like that.

I can't help think that a Payton Manning, or Brady would have been able to read the defenses tonight and make huge plays. But Ben ... if it's not there, he doesn't seem to know where to look for it.

Pure physical talent isn't enough, IMO.

:Agree

stlrz d
12-11-2009, 01:12 AM
None of us know for sure, but there sure is a lot of talk about how little time Ben spends in the film room. Heck, I remember an interview where he all but bragged about how "he'd rather do his learning on the field", or something pretty much like that.

I can't help think that a Payton Manning, or Brady would have been able to read the defenses tonight and make huge plays. But Ben ... if it's not there, he doesn't seem to know where to look for it.

Pure physical talent isn't enough, IMO.

He never said he doesn't study film. What he said was, "I learn more by doing".

People have different learning styles. That's what makes us all different.

Anyway, that is NOT saying that he doesn't study film. Anyone who thinks a coach is going to let him get away with not studying film is simply crazy.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
12-11-2009, 01:17 AM
None of us know for sure, but there sure is a lot of talk about how little time Ben spends in the film room. Heck, I remember an interview where he all but bragged about how "he'd rather do his learning on the field", or something pretty much like that.

I can't help think that a Payton Manning, or Brady would have been able to read the defenses tonight and make huge plays. But Ben ... if it's not there, he doesn't seem to know where to look for it.

Pure physical talent isn't enough, IMO.

He never said he doesn't study film. What he said was, "I learn more by doing".

People have different learning styles. That's what makes us all different.

Anyway, that is NOT saying that he doesn't study film. Anyone who thinks a coach is going to let him get away with not studying film is simply crazy.

I never said he doesn't study film. Don't you think Payton Manning, or Brady, or Drew Brees "learn by doing" also? Different learning styles is great, but I can't imagine Ben wouldn't get exponentially better by watching A LOT more film. Like I said, no one knows for sure, but his words (and actions on the field!!) suggest that might be true. It's not like we were playing the '85 Bears!! :stirpot ( :wink: shout out to other thread)

sd steel
12-11-2009, 01:20 AM
None of us know for sure, but there sure is a lot of talk about how little time Ben spends in the film room. Heck, I remember an interview where he all but bragged about how "he'd rather do his learning on the field", or something pretty much like that.

I can't help think that a Payton Manning, or Brady would have been able to read the defenses tonight and make huge plays. But Ben ... if it's not there, he doesn't seem to know where to look for it.

Pure physical talent isn't enough, IMO.

He never said he doesn't study film. What he said was, "I learn more by doing".

People have different learning styles. That's what makes us all different.

Anyway, that is NOT saying that he doesn't study film. Anyone who thinks a coach is going to let him get away with not studying film is simply crazy.

He is the franchise, and he does what he wants to do. What is a coach going to do? Bench him? The 100 million dollar man who helped win to Super Bowls in a Super Bowl starved town? Ben is the King.

stlrz d
12-11-2009, 01:20 AM
None of us know for sure, but there sure is a lot of talk about how little time Ben spends in the film room. Heck, I remember an interview where he all but bragged about how "he'd rather do his learning on the field", or something pretty much like that.

I can't help think that a Payton Manning, or Brady would have been able to read the defenses tonight and make huge plays. But Ben ... if it's not there, he doesn't seem to know where to look for it.

Pure physical talent isn't enough, IMO.

He never said he doesn't study film. What he said was, "I learn more by doing".

People have different learning styles. That's what makes us all different.

Anyway, that is NOT saying that he doesn't study film. Anyone who thinks a coach is going to let him get away with not studying film is simply crazy.

I never said he doesn't study film. Don't you think Payton Manning, or Brady, or Drew Brees "learn by doing" also? Different learning styles is great, but I can't imagine Ben wouldn't get exponentially better by watching A LOT more film. Like I said, no one knows for sure, but his words (and actions on the field!!) suggest that might be true. It's not like we were playing the '85 Bears!! :stirpot ( :wink: shout out to other thread)

I learn by doing. My work equivalent of "studying film" helps me and I do plenty of it, but ultimately I learn by doing.

People learn differently. If a person learns in one manner why would they focus MORE on a different learning style that does not work as well for them? To appease the fans? That simply does not make sense.

grotonsteel
12-11-2009, 01:25 AM
[quote=SanAntonioSteelerFan]None of us know for sure, but there sure is a lot of talk about how little time Ben spends in the film room. Heck, I remember an interview where he all but bragged about how "he'd rather do his learning on the field", or something pretty much like that.

I can't help think that a Payton Manning, or Brady would have been able to read the defenses tonight and make huge plays. But Ben ... if it's not there, he doesn't seem to know where to look for it.

Pure physical talent isn't enough, IMO.

He never said he doesn't study film. What he said was, "I learn more by doing".

People have different learning styles. That's what makes us all different.

Anyway, that is NOT saying that he doesn't study film. Anyone who thinks a coach is going to let him get away with not studying film is simply crazy.

I never said he doesn't study film. Don't you think Payton Manning, or Brady, or Drew Brees "learn by doing" also? Different learning styles is great, but I can't imagine Ben wouldn't get exponentially better by watching A LOT more film. Like I said, no one knows for sure, but his words (and actions on the field!!) suggest that might be true. It's not like we were playing the '85 Bears!! :stirpot ( :wink: shout out to other thread)

I learn by doing. My work equivalent of "studying film" helps me and I do plenty of it, but ultimately I learn by doing.

People learn differently. If a person learns in one manner why would they focus MORE on a different learning style that does not work as well for them? To appease the fans? That simply does not make sense.[/quote:1w3kwfym]


:Clap :Agree

SanAntonioSteelerFan
12-11-2009, 01:25 AM
[quote=SanAntonioSteelerFan]None of us know for sure, but there sure is a lot of talk about how little time Ben spends in the film room. Heck, I remember an interview where he all but bragged about how "he'd rather do his learning on the field", or something pretty much like that.

I can't help think that a Payton Manning, or Brady would have been able to read the defenses tonight and make huge plays. But Ben ... if it's not there, he doesn't seem to know where to look for it.

Pure physical talent isn't enough, IMO.

He never said he doesn't study film. What he said was, "I learn more by doing".

People have different learning styles. That's what makes us all different.

Anyway, that is NOT saying that he doesn't study film. Anyone who thinks a coach is going to let him get away with not studying film is simply crazy.

I never said he doesn't study film. Don't you think Payton Manning, or Brady, or Drew Brees "learn by doing" also? Different learning styles is great, but I can't imagine Ben wouldn't get exponentially better by watching A LOT more film. Like I said, no one knows for sure, but his words (and actions on the field!!) suggest that might be true. It's not like we were playing the '85 Bears!! :stirpot ( :wink: shout out to other thread)

I learn by doing. My work equivalent of "studying film" helps me and I do plenty of it, but ultimately I learn by doing.

People learn differently. If a person learns in one manner why would they focus MORE on a different learning style that does not work as well for them? To appease the fans? That simply does not make sense.[/quote:8ulqinoc]

I hear what you're saying D, but Ben has looked more and more confused this year as defenses have figured out how to play him. It just seems obvious that he needs to supplement his "learning by doing" strategy with something/anything else. Maybe more "learning by doing" is the answer, but I just have this feeling things would already be better now if it was. More film time, since he apparently doesn't do a lot of that, just seems like a natural place to make a change that would show results.

stlrz d
12-11-2009, 01:28 AM
But he never said that he doesn't do a lot of film study man. All he said is that he learns better by doing. That's it. He never said he doesn't do film study. He never said he doesn't do a lot of film study. He never said he does less or more film study.

All he said is that he learns by doing. That's it.

grotonsteel
12-11-2009, 01:32 AM
[quote=SanAntonioSteelerFan]None of us know for sure, but there sure is a lot of talk about how little time Ben spends in the film room. Heck, I remember an interview where he all but bragged about how "he'd rather do his learning on the field", or something pretty much like that.

I can't help think that a Payton Manning, or Brady would have been able to read the defenses tonight and make huge plays. But Ben ... if it's not there, he doesn't seem to know where to look for it.

Pure physical talent isn't enough, IMO.

He never said he doesn't study film. What he said was, "I learn more by doing".

People have different learning styles. That's what makes us all different.

Anyway, that is NOT saying that he doesn't study film. Anyone who thinks a coach is going to let him get away with not studying film is simply crazy.

I never said he doesn't study film. Don't you think Payton Manning, or Brady, or Drew Brees "learn by doing" also? Different learning styles is great, but I can't imagine Ben wouldn't get exponentially better by watching A LOT more film. Like I said, no one knows for sure, but his words (and actions on the field!!) suggest that might be true. It's not like we were playing the '85 Bears!! :stirpot ( :wink: shout out to other thread)

I learn by doing. My work equivalent of "studying film" helps me and I do plenty of it, but ultimately I learn by doing.

People learn differently. If a person learns in one manner why would they focus MORE on a different learning style that does not work as well for them? To appease the fans? That simply does not make sense.

I hear what you're saying D, but Ben has looked more and more confused this year as defenses have figured out how to play him. It just seems obvious that he needs to supplement his "learning by doing" strategy with something/anything else. Maybe more "learning by doing" is the answer, but I just have this feeling things would already be better now if it was. More film time, since he apparently doesn't do a lot of that, just seems like a natural place to make a change that would show results.[/quote:1yon0lmt]

Why do you say that??? Big Ben is having a better year compared to last year. Just because Steelers are 6-7 does not mean people have figured out Big Ben. Big Ben had 2 bad games this season so far (Cincy, Stains) IMO.

sd steel
12-11-2009, 01:34 AM
But he never said that he doesn't do a lot of film study man. All he said is that he learns better by doing. That's it. He never said he doesn't do film study. He never said he doesn't do a lot of film study. He never said he does less or more film study.

All he said is that he learns by doing. That's it.

It's pretty obvious Ben has done a good job with his talent, but now the touchy feely BS has to go, and he has to work hard on his game if he wants future success. I'm starting to believe some of his previous critics about being a game manager. They need to get him to start managing games again. Because right now he is a mess.

Steelhere10
12-11-2009, 03:16 AM
When i posted on this board after the Bengals game, about Ben and the offense was at the SBAR late Friday night (2am) in Pittsburgh following a short week i had certain people criticize me for criticizing them and also swore that i was lying. I am wondering do you still think it was a lie :evil: :evil: :evil: i don't think Ben take his position as serious as a Brady or Manning !

Scarletfire1970
12-11-2009, 07:14 AM
I guess I saw a different game than most.

Ben has been much better this year at reading defenses.

Last night receivers couldn't get open in man coverage. Sure there were a few times Ben could have run or maybe threw the ball away. Ben did take the check down a few times last night which is unusual for him. But all in all we had alot of problems last night. WR couldn't get open. Not sure if it is the play calling or Hine's injury or not enough time provided by the line to make plays in the passing game or a combination of all.

Stains do have Buddy Ryan's boy as their d coordinator. But I just can't belive how our WR couldn't get any separation.

BURGH86STEEL
12-11-2009, 08:25 AM
None of us know for sure, but there sure is a lot of talk about how little time Ben spends in the film room. Heck, I remember an interview where he all but bragged about how "he'd rather do his learning on the field", or something pretty much like that.

I can't help think that a Payton Manning, or Brady would have been able to read the defenses tonight and make huge plays. But Ben ... if it's not there, he doesn't seem to know where to look for it.

Pure physical talent isn't enough, IMO.

I believe we are seeing the way to defeat a Ben lead offense. This may have been the blue print since his second year in the league.

It appears to me that the teams that blitz, play tight man coverage, and execute that game plan give Ben and the offense trouble. When Ben can't escape the pocket in those situations, we've seen the results many times this season.

There are times Ben plays like he is one of the best QB's in the league. There are also times he plays like one of the worst QB's in the league. The inconsistency from the QB position is a big reason the offense struggles. Going back to what you said, there are many times were he does not look prepare or has a lack of awareness of what is happening on the field.

They need to work on correcting the issues at hand. Is it to late for the coaching staff to "reign" Ben in? Another question that can be asked, is the talent level on offense as good as we think?

frankthetank1
12-11-2009, 08:34 AM
I guess I saw a different game than most.

Ben has been much better this year at reading defenses.

Last night receivers couldn't get open in man coverage. Sure there were a few times Ben could have run or maybe threw the ball away. Ben did take the check down a few times last night which is unusual for him. But all in all we had alot of problems last night. WR couldn't get open. Not sure if it is the play calling or Hine's injury or not enough time provided by the line to make plays in the passing game or a combination of all.

Stains do have Buddy Ryan's boy as their d coordinator. But I just can't belive how our WR couldn't get any separation.

i agree. ben didnt throw one pick which is impressive considering the pressure he had to face and the lack of seperation the wr's were getting. not sure why when the offense isnt playing all that well ben gets the blame and or BA. Ben isnt the problem!! last night there were a few occasions where he could of ran instead of staying in the pocket. other than that he really didnt make any mistakes. last year he didnt play year, this year he has played much better. that is called improvement

stlrz d
12-11-2009, 08:45 AM
The middle of the field was open yet there were very few plays called that had receivers in the short middle. There were very few short routes run period. Everything was intermediate to deep.

The last play of the game the receivers were all 10-12 yards deep...and there were even 2 on one spot who were defended by ONE defender. On that last play there wasn't even a check down option in case all else failed, which it did.

And no, I'm not one of those "why do you throw a 3 yard pass on 4th and whatever" types because I understand that if nothing else is open you need to give a guy a chance to make a play with his legs. Throw it short and let him run with it.

Also, it's time to stop with the "he used his checkdowns, which is rare for him" comments. I have seen people post that after nearly every game this season. Because he IS using them. I think it was either the second Bengals game or the Chiefs game where he actually became captain checkdown.

The issue last night was Arians insisted on running plays with intermediate to deep patterns and the Browns DBs got away with a lot of illegal contact. I'm not blaming the officials...just saying the Browns were allowed to play TIGHT and there were no flags...even when Wallace's jersey was jerked right off his shoulder pads.

But despite all that we still should have managed more than what we did.

TallyStiller
12-11-2009, 08:48 AM
Ben has always, to my mind, been a somewhat immature kid who often rubs people the wrong way. It was said that the biggest reason he transitioned into the locker room as a young player here was because Bussie took him under his wing and helped him out in this regard. Faneca certainly didn't take to him, as we remember... Later there were the pics of him boozing, the helmetless motorcycle riding, the um... questionable personal decision in Reno. A lack of focus and film study would fit into that pattern.

That being said, I've got my own flaws and weaknesses, personally AND professionally. Anybody you get in here would... the idea here isn't to bash Ben, but to be realistic about what we have.

I think Brett Favre is a good comparison in a couple of ways. He was always kind of a "gunslinger" with whom you took the good and the bad... Packers fans and the Walrus (Holmgren, not Lennon :D ) used to rejoice over the victories when they were won by his unorthodox play, and gnash their teeth over the bad picks he threw. Now they deal with the fallout from the fact that his personality was so freaking irritating with the indecisiveness and the need for ego stroking that his GM just had enough and ran him out of town even though he had some gas left in the tank because he was tired of running a franchise around one player who grew too big for the team.

With both players, you take the good with the bad. We have 2 rings with Ben. I'm OK with that.

Scarletfire1970
12-11-2009, 09:05 AM
The middle of the field was open yet there were very few plays called that had receivers in the short middle. There were very few short routes run period. Everything was intermediate to deep.

The last play of the game the receivers were all 10-12 yards deep...and there were even 2 on one spot who were defended by ONE defender. On that last play there wasn't even a check down option in case all else failed, which it did.

And no, I'm not one of those "why do you throw a 3 yard pass on 4th and whatever" types because I understand that if nothing else is open you need to give a guy a chance to make a play with his legs. Throw it short and let him run with it.

Also, it's time to stop with the "he used his checkdowns, which is rare for him" comments. I have seen people post that after nearly every game this season. Because he IS using them. I think it was either the second Bengals game or the Chiefs game where he actually became captain checkdown.

The issue last night was Arians insisted on running plays with intermediate to deep patterns and the Browns DBs got away with a lot of illegal contact. I'm not blaming the officials...just saying the Browns were allowed to play TIGHT and there were no flags...even when Wallace's jersey was jerked right off his shoulder pads.

But despite all that we still should have managed more than what we did.you are right. I was wrong to say it was unusual for Ben to take the checkdowns. He's been doing it all season.

stlrz d
12-11-2009, 10:32 PM
The middle of the field was open yet there were very few plays called that had receivers in the short middle. There were very few short routes run period. Everything was intermediate to deep.

The last play of the game the receivers were all 10-12 yards deep...and there were even 2 on one spot who were defended by ONE defender. On that last play there wasn't even a check down option in case all else failed, which it did.

And no, I'm not one of those "why do you throw a 3 yard pass on 4th and whatever" types because I understand that if nothing else is open you need to give a guy a chance to make a play with his legs. Throw it short and let him run with it.

Also, it's time to stop with the "he used his checkdowns, which is rare for him" comments. I have seen people post that after nearly every game this season. Because he IS using them. I think it was either the second Bengals game or the Chiefs game where he actually became captain checkdown.

The issue last night was Arians insisted on running plays with intermediate to deep patterns and the Browns DBs got away with a lot of illegal contact. I'm not blaming the officials...just saying the Browns were allowed to play TIGHT and there were no flags...even when Wallace's jersey was jerked right off his shoulder pads.

But despite all that we still should have managed more than what we did.you are right. I was wrong to say it was unusual for Ben to take the checkdowns. He's been doing it all season.

There are a lot of people who said it Scarlet. No worries...just making the point that he has been using his check downs.

RuthlessBurgher
12-12-2009, 02:51 AM
[quote=SanAntonioSteelerFan]None of us know for sure, but there sure is a lot of talk about how little time Ben spends in the film room. Heck, I remember an interview where he all but bragged about how "he'd rather do his learning on the field", or something pretty much like that.

I can't help think that a Payton Manning, or Brady would have been able to read the defenses tonight and make huge plays. But Ben ... if it's not there, he doesn't seem to know where to look for it.

Pure physical talent isn't enough, IMO.

He never said he doesn't study film. What he said was, "I learn more by doing".

People have different learning styles. That's what makes us all different.

Anyway, that is NOT saying that he doesn't study film. Anyone who thinks a coach is going to let him get away with not studying film is simply crazy.

He is the franchise, and he does what he wants to do. What is a coach going to do? Bench him? The 100 million dollar man who helped win to Super Bowls in a Super Bowl starved town? Ben is the King.[/quote:sueuh3un]

He's gone from Ben E. King (Stand By Me) to B.B. King (The Thrill Is Gone).

NorthCoast
12-12-2009, 10:15 AM
Watching film is one thing....understanding it is another. Give you a related example. A guy at work was well-known for spending long hours in the office. Everyone thought he was really busting it. One night I stayed a little late and walked by his office. He was sound asleep with his finger on the mouse and the screen scrolling away.....not real productive.

I think Ben just needs more help with play calling and it doesn't seem like BA is the coach to do it. It seems like when we struggle offensively in games, there is just very little adjustment that happens and we continue to struggle throughout. (although this happens once in a while on the defensive side it is not nearly as frequent).

I put that on the coaching.

Steelerphile
12-12-2009, 01:38 PM
I jus think that going 'empty set' with Roethlisberger is suicidal and the offense does that much too often.

If he doesn't make the quick decision, which he often doesn't, than the empty set formation leaves him very vulnerable. The defense knows a pass is coming and can lay their ears back and come as hard as possible with extra rushers. The blockers miss someone and it is another easy and drive-killing sack.

The one thing that I will always dislike about this OL is that they have the most fat, misshapened bodies of any line that I have seen. It has to hurt their mobility. I also think there are times that Mendenhall cannot get through a crack because a fat load like Trai Essex is just in the hole and there is nowhere to get around him.

Arians should have calculated some other avenue than the empty set, especially on short yardage downs.

NJ-STEELER
12-12-2009, 04:25 PM
When i posted on this board after the Bengals game, about Ben and the offense was at the SBAR late Friday night (2am) in Pittsburgh following a short week i had certain people criticize me for criticizing them and also swore that i was lying. I am wondering do you still think it was a lie :evil: :evil: :evil: i don't think Ben take his position as serious as a Brady or Manning !

how serious, would you say, brady took the game leading up to the loss vs. the dolphiins.

since he threw a red zone INT and clinched the game for miami by heaving the ball out while being sacked?


futhermore, on the cusp of an undefeated season, how serious did he take the SB when he spent the offweek away from home at his girl's place in a city whose team he was facing?

feltdizz
12-12-2009, 08:33 PM
Saying Ben learns more by doing in regards to film study is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Basically Ben is saying screw the film just give me the ball and let me do what I do. Great when we win... Terrible when we lose and Ben is taking 8 sacks against the Browns. sure it's the Browns but they did what everyone else has been doing.. Sitting deep and blitzing cause we haven't adjusted.

No matter how we practice the film is the best way to study a team and certain players tendencies in certain sets. Do you think other teams just learned on the field how to carve up our D?

One last thing. Phuck Brady... stop using him as a measuring stick for greatness. He is a cheater amd a bully who racks up stats in blowouts and hides when his team is getting blasted. The guy had a great year 2 years back but he blows now that teams have changed signals. The guy is great at throwing 5 yard crossing patterns but we saw Cassell do the same thing. He is the ultimate system QB.

stlrz d
12-12-2009, 08:54 PM
Saying Ben learns more by doing in regards to film study is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Basically Ben is saying screw the film just give me the ball and let me do what I do. Great when we win... Terrible when we lose and Ben is taking 8 sacks against the Browns. sure it's the Browns but they did what everyone else has been doing.. Sitting deep and blitzing cause we haven't adjusted.

No matter how we practice the film is the best way to study a team and certain players tendencies in certain sets. Do you think other teams just learned on the field how to carve up our D?

One last thing. Phuck Brady... stop using him as a measuring stick for greatness. He is a cheater amd a bully who racks up stats in blowouts and hides when his team is getting blasted. The guy had a great year 2 years back but he blows now that teams have changed signals. The guy is great at throwing 5 yard crossing patterns but we saw Cassell do the same thing. He is the ultimate system QB.

How much time have you spent observing Ben studying film?

feltdizz
12-12-2009, 09:29 PM
Saying Ben learns more by doing in regards to film study is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Basically Ben is saying screw the film just give me the ball and let me do what I do. Great when we win... Terrible when we lose and Ben is taking 8 sacks against the Browns. sure it's the Browns but they did what everyone else has been doing.. Sitting deep and blitzing cause we haven't adjusted.

No matter how we practice the film is the best way to study a team and certain players tendencies in certain sets. Do you think other teams just learned on the field how to carve up our D?

One last thing. Phuck Brady... stop using him as a measuring stick for greatness. He is a cheater amd a bully who racks up stats in blowouts and hides when his team is getting blasted. The guy had a great year 2 years back but he blows now that teams have changed signals. The guy is great at throwing 5 yard crossing patterns but we saw Cassell do the same thing. He is the ultimate system QB.

How much time have you spent observing Ben studying film?

The same amount of time you have... :wink:

stlrz d
12-12-2009, 10:04 PM
Saying Ben learns more by doing in regards to film study is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Basically Ben is saying screw the film just give me the ball and let me do what I do. Great when we win... Terrible when we lose and Ben is taking 8 sacks against the Browns. sure it's the Browns but they did what everyone else has been doing.. Sitting deep and blitzing cause we haven't adjusted.

No matter how we practice the film is the best way to study a team and certain players tendencies in certain sets. Do you think other teams just learned on the field how to carve up our D?

One last thing. Phuck Brady... stop using him as a measuring stick for greatness. He is a cheater amd a bully who racks up stats in blowouts and hides when his team is getting blasted. The guy had a great year 2 years back but he blows now that teams have changed signals. The guy is great at throwing 5 yard crossing patterns but we saw Cassell do the same thing. He is the ultimate system QB.

How much time have you spent observing Ben studying film?

The same amount of time you have... :wink:

Film study is part of his job. So he's obviously doing what he's required or we'd be hearing about it.

So your speculation is just that...speculation.