LeBeau is the problem

[Oviedo]

Some equal opportunity criticism of coordinators is well past due. Everyone wants to worship LeBeau but he has consistently been able to make the adjustments necessary to win close games. Four losses by a FG and one more by 2 FGs and losing late leads.

The front seven is getting the job done but LeBeau has been totally unable to get the back four to do what they need to do.

The 3-4 doesn't surprise anyone anymore. Too many teams are using it so the opponents go into the games every week more ready for what we have than ever. LeBeau has not adjusted or put new wrinkles into his schemes and so we get the same story week after week. The defense fails to make plays late and we lose late leads.

Our offense and the oft criticized Bruce Arians has been doing the job. The defense and LeBeau haven't.

[JTP53609]

love lebeau, he was putting some good calls out there i though, it was not his fault that we have william gay out there who cannot tackle or cover. and james farrior did get beat by ray rice many times and the killer was on fourh and 5.. the defense is just bad, we could of made it a difficult fg for the rats in overtime, but we just let them run down our throats.......

[Ghost]

Once again the offense gave the team the lead into the 4th quarter and and the D couldn't hold it. 3rd and 22 and they allow a 17 yard pick up which then puts Baltimore in 4th and 5 - just short enough to go for it and of course make it.

Throw out any stat you want - this Defense is not clutch.

[feltdizz]

Some equal opportunity criticism of coordinators is well past due. Everyone wants to worship LeBeau but he has consistently been able to make the adjustments necessary to win close games. Four losses by a FG and one more by 2 FGs and losing late leads.

The front seven is getting the job done but LeBeau has been totally unable to get the back four to do what they need to do.

The 3-4 doesn't surprise anyone anymore. Too many teams are using it so the opponents go into the games every week more ready for what we have than ever. LeBeau has not adjusted or put new wrinkles into his schemes and so we get the same story week after week. The defense fails to make plays late and we lose late leads.

Our offense and the oft criticized Bruce Arians has been doing the job. The defense and LeBeau haven't.

what is it you mean by this? How can this be? Sarcasm....
Blaming Arians is so easy why stop now? It's like that drunk uncle who stopped drinking a year ago but you keep blaming him for the bad holiday get together when it's obvious the favorite uncle was knocked over the turkey this year.

It's more then Gay getting beat. How many times do we see Ike run up to make a tackle after giving the 10 yard cushion and slapping his hands like he almost made a play on the ball? How many 3rd and forevers are we sweating over because we all know 3rd and long as harder to stop then 3rd and 3? I think Troy made life easy for Lebeau and without him he just doesn't have the mojo to dial up a stop.

[Oviedo]

Some equal opportunity criticism of coordinators is well past due. Everyone wants to worship LeBeau but he has consistently been able to make the adjustments necessary to win close games. Four losses by a FG and one more by 2 FGs and losing late leads.

The front seven is getting the job done but LeBeau has been totally unable to get the back four to do what they need to do.

The 3-4 doesn't surprise anyone anymore. Too many teams are using it so the opponents go into the games every week more ready for what we have than ever. LeBeau has not adjusted or put new wrinkles into his schemes and so we get the same story week after week. The defense fails to make plays late and we lose late leads.

Our offense and the oft criticized Bruce Arians has been doing the job. The defense and LeBeau haven't.

what is it you mean by this? How can this be? Sarcasm....
Blaming Arians is so easy why stop now? It's like that drunk uncle who stopped drinking a year ago but you keep blaming him for the bad holiday get together when it's obvious the favorite uncle was knocked over the turkey this year.

It's more then Gay getting beat. How many times do we see Ike run up to make a tackle after giving the 10 yard cushion and slapping his hands like he almost made a play on the ball? How many 3rd and forevers are we sweating over because we all know 3rd and long as harder to stop then 3rd and 3? I think Troy made life easy for Lebeau and without him he just doesn't have the mojo to dial up a stop.

:Agree It's not just Gay. Opponents have figured out the scheme and we can't just rely on hurculean efforts from Harrison and Woodley to sack the QB to overcome what are clear schematic problems against the pass.

Dare I say 4-3 defense without the lynch mob forming? For 2010:

DE: Woodley
DT: Smith
DT: Hood
DE: Kiesel

LB: Harrison
MLB: Farrior (Draft his replacement in 2010)
LB: Timmons

CB: Taylor
CB: Gay (always reported to be better Cover 2 CB)
SS: Polamalu
FS: Clark

Note the pieces we need are already on the team and we don't need to retain Hampton

[Leper Friend]

Throw out any stat you want - this Defense is not clutch.
Not even close.They are whatever the exact opposite of clutch is.

[RuthlessBurgher]

Throw out any stat you want - this Defense is not clutch.
Not even close.They are whatever the exact opposite of clutch is.

Automatic transmission?

[Leper Friend]

Throw out any stat you want - this Defense is not clutch.
Not even close.They are whatever the exact opposite of clutch is.

Automatic transmission?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
That was good. It's hard to get me to laugh this morning.

[frankthetank1]

i hate to say it but part of the problem has to be the age on defense. this upcoming draft better be mostly on the defensive side

[phillyesq]

Having Farrior try to cover Rice in man coverage on the 4th and 5 was a big mistake, no doubt. I don't think that Timmons or any LB would have been able to do so, but Timmons would have been a better coverage option than Farrior.

[LouSteel]

$$$$$

Our offense performed as well as I could've hoped. When the third-string QB gets you the lead with 5 minutes left, that's phenomenal. And it's up to the D to finish the game. Ours didn't.

I think it's Cover 2 time. We've got the personnel on the roster to run it tomorrow, and I think Oviedo definitely has the personnel right. As a UofL fan, I can definitely confirm that Gay was stout when we played out of a cover 2.

My main point of concern is also Farrior. He looks old. He's got the smarts, but does he have the speed?

Cover 2, draft a MLB, get a S to learn behind Troy and Clark, and get younger on the DL...

[Blitz-en]

I hate to see all the criticism put on Lebeau. He's probably the greatest defensive coordinator to ever coach in the league. He's currently coaching a top 3 defense, with two major veterans missing in action. From last year, the organization decided to let McFadden go and trust in Gay. So, Lebeau is attempting to coach a team missing 3 main starters from last year. While doing that, he's been able to somehow keep the group in elite status in the league.

Now, I understand the frustrations with the late game collapses on that side of the ball. But, it's been one or two big plays in each case. If Ryan Clark just looks back for the ball on the long pass. If Gay can drag down Rice instead of getting juked out of his jock. If Baltimore doesn't call the exact perfect play on 4th and 5. It is what it is, but alot of the defensive woes that we are nitpicking are things that happen when your missing a key component or two in that unit.

I choose, instead, to question Arians. This offense, all year, has underperformed. Not too many teams in the NFL can boast comparable players to Ben, Mendy, Miller, Holmes, Ward, Wallace. Yet, we have consistantly struggled to score 3 offensive TD's in a given game. With that much fire power, I'd like to think that expectations would be a little higher. Much of the offenses success occurs on broken plays, ad libs, etc. Not on designed plays that were called at the right time and executed perfectly.

Just my 2 cents.

[Leper Friend]

I hate to see all the criticism put on Lebeau. He's probably the greatest defensive coordinator to ever coach in the league. He's currently coaching a top 3 defense, with two major veterans missing in action. From last year, the organization decided to let McFadden go and trust in Gay. So, Lebeau is attempting to coach a team missing 3 main starters from last year. While doing that, he's been able to somehow keep the group in elite status in the league.

Now, I understand the frustrations with the late game collapses on that side of the ball. But, it's been one or two big plays in each case. If Ryan Clark just looks back for the ball on the long pass. If Gay can drag down Rice instead of getting juked out of his jock. If Baltimore doesn't call the exact perfect play on 4th and 5. It is what it is, but alot of the defensive woes that we are nitpicking are things that happen when your missing a key component or two in that unit.

I choose, instead, to question Arians. This offense, all year, has underperformed. Not too many teams in the NFL can boast comparable players to Ben, Mendy, Miller, Holmes, Ward, Wallace. Yet, we have consistantly struggled to score 3 offensive TD's in a given game. With that much fire power, I'd like to think that expectations would be a little higher. Much of the offenses success occurs on broken plays, ad libs, etc. Not on designed plays that were called at the right time and executed perfectly.

Just my 2 cents.If they lost a lead last night alone , I would be ok with that. However, at this point it's a trend.

The coordinator has to know his team's stregnths. James farrior in coverage is a weakness.Baltimore knows this and went right at him. Game on the line.

Cam Cameron - 1

Dick Lebeau - 0

[flippy]

The only issue I have with Lebeau is putting James Farrior on Ray Rice 1 on 1 in a critical situation.

[LouSteel]

Just my 2 cents.

There is no question whatsoever that Lebeau is one of the best ever. I don't put a lot of the blame on him -- I put it on the 3-4.

Ever since the Superbowl we've been giving up leads late in the game. Lebeau's 10 yard cushion is based on containing the big play and making the other team grind it out. That's going to give us excellent stats.

But if we can't hold the other team late, we're going to be paper champions along with the Stains.

Lebeau's scheme isn't working. Neither is Arians'. The big difference: Lebeau is smart enough to change it up in the offseason. I'd love to see his take on the 4-3 -- we've got the right players, and I think he'd bring some unexpected wrinkles to the table. Arians isn't smart enough to change it up, so he has to go.

[Blitz-en]

I hate to see all the criticism put on Lebeau. He's probably the greatest defensive coordinator to ever coach in the league. He's currently coaching a top 3 defense, with two major veterans missing in action. From last year, the organization decided to let McFadden go and trust in Gay. So, Lebeau is attempting to coach a team missing 3 main starters from last year. While doing that, he's been able to somehow keep the group in elite status in the league.

Now, I understand the frustrations with the late game collapses on that side of the ball. But, it's been one or two big plays in each case. If Ryan Clark just looks back for the ball on the long pass. If Gay can drag down Rice instead of getting juked out of his jock. If Baltimore doesn't call the exact perfect play on 4th and 5. It is what it is, but alot of the defensive woes that we are nitpicking are things that happen when your missing a key component or two in that unit.

I choose, instead, to question Arians. This offense, all year, has underperformed. Not too many teams in the NFL can boast comparable players to Ben, Mendy, Miller, Holmes, Ward, Wallace. Yet, we have consistantly struggled to score 3 offensive TD's in a given game. With that much fire power, I'd like to think that expectations would be a little higher. Much of the offenses success occurs on broken plays, ad libs, etc. Not on designed plays that were called at the right time and executed perfectly.

Just my 2 cents.If they lost a lead last night alone , I would be ok with that. However, at this point it's a trend.

The coordinator has to know his team's stregnths. James farrior in coverage is a weakness.Baltimore knows this and went right at him. Game on the line.

Cam Cameron - 1

bad word Lebeau - 0


I agree, Cameron won that battle. But, first we must understand that there was a timeout and Lebeau didn't know what play the offense was going to run. Much criticism on a single play of a game suggests that the opposing team knew the play call ahead of time and didn't do what they needed to stop it. So, in this situation, Timmons is covering Heap, who do you suggest should have covered Rice when he went in motion? Don't forget, Lebeau is not physically on the field, and not able to freeze time to figure out a better matchup for this particular situation.

Not trying to be a smart aleck. But, as I said, "It is what it is". It's all about matchups, and Baltimore had the better matchup on that play. On a side note: wouldn't it be nice to see Arians use Mendenhall matched up against a linebacker once in a while?

[BradshawsHairdresser]

I agree that LeBeau is not doing the job needed out of a D coordinator. I DON'T agree that Arians is doing OK. BOTH are woefully underachieving, and last night's game serves as a
tremendous example.

Dennis Dixon against the Raven's D? You'd think Arians would have found a way to call a couple more passes to RBs. You'd think Arians would have found a way to get Dixon MOVING, instead of confining him to the pocket for 90+ percent of the plays. How about some more roll-outs? The one worked so well (TD) that he never went to it again! How about trying a reverse? How about involving Heath Miller a little more? When Dixon was hot, at the end of the 2Q, why not give him the chance to move the team into field-goal position? The answer? Because Arians is a stubborn, clueless stiff.

I think it's time for BOTH LeBeau AND Arians to go. And throw out Ligashevsky with them, for good measure.

[LouSteel]

I think it's time for BOTH LeBeau AND Arians to go. And throw out Ligashevsky with them, for good measure.

Agree on Arians and Ligashevsky -- the O performed as well as expected for most of yesterday, but then Arians crapped the bed in OT. And we need to bring in a hungry ST player.

Disagree on Lebeau. I think he's smart enough to change this D to fit the players we have -- did I mention that many of them are prototypical 4-3 players :stirpot -- and I think he can bring enough to the table to really get this team going.

I'm happy to see fire in Tomlin, and I think this coming season is when he really puts his fingerprints on all aspects of his team...

[NWNewell]

I agree that the offense played about as well as we could hope. And the special teams didn't kill us, in spite of themselves. Our defense was torched on the ground and we couldn't hold the lead. When a team runs the ball down our throughts like they did. I think that is more the players getting out played... plain and simple.

However, I don't think I'll put too much blame on LeBeau. Some, maybe. That play were Rice motioned and exposed Farrior one on one was big. LeBeau might have lost this battle. Maybe they caught LeBeau on that one... but then again.. maybe it's luck.

But for the most part this year... our defense has been very good. Fewest points of any team, best against the run, still #3 overall. I don't care what allstar cast you have, you don't achieve those numbers without being put and the right position to make the plays. And LeBeau has done that. Our only problem is we have extremely high expectations. But in reality, LeBeau is still performing at an elite level.

In all honesty... we were far out gunned at the QB position yet Dixon played as well as anyone could have hoped, but I think we simply got out played in almost every other other phase of the game yesterday. Reluctantly, my hat's off to the Ravens for giving us a taste of our own medicine. :Clap

[Oviedo]

I hate to see all the criticism put on Lebeau. He's probably the greatest defensive coordinator to ever coach in the league. He's currently coaching a top 3 defense, with two major veterans missing in action. From last year, the organization decided to let McFadden go and trust in Gay. So, Lebeau is attempting to coach a team missing 3 main starters from last year. While doing that, he's been able to somehow keep the group in elite status in the league.

Now, I understand the frustrations with the late game collapses on that side of the ball. But, it's been one or two big plays in each case. If Ryan Clark just looks back for the ball on the long pass. If Gay can drag down Rice instead of getting juked out of his jock. If Baltimore doesn't call the exact perfect play on 4th and 5. It is what it is, but alot of the defensive woes that we are nitpicking are things that happen when your missing a key component or two in that unit.

I choose, instead, to question Arians. This offense, all year, has underperformed. Not too many teams in the NFL can boast comparable players to Ben, Mendy, Miller, Holmes, Ward, Wallace. Yet, we have consistantly struggled to score 3 offensive TD's in a given game. With that much fire power, I'd like to think that expectations would be a little higher. Much of the offenses success occurs on broken plays, ad libs, etc. Not on designed plays that were called at the right time and executed perfectly.

Just my 2 cents.

If such and such doesn't drop that pass. If FWP doesn't miss the hole. If Ben doesn't force the ball. None of these have ever been justification not to criticize Arians so why does LeBeau get the pass? No one doubts LeBeau's contributions or greatness but perhaps the league has caught up with him and moved past him.

One of the biggest dangers with an icon is that they can fall in love with what they have invented and they can stay in love with it past its due date.

I started this not because I don't like LeBeau, as a matter of fact I think he is great, but there is reason to really question what we are doing on defense and whether we are blindly holding onto a scheme that isn't working and more importnatly doesn't fit the personnel we have or are likely to get.

[Oviedo]

I think it's time for BOTH LeBeau AND Arians to go. And throw out Ligashevsky with them, for good measure.

Agree on Arians and Ligashevsky -- the O performed as well as expected for most of yesterday, but then Arians crapped the bed in OT. And we need to bring in a hungry ST player.

Disagree on Lebeau. I think he's smart enough to change this D to fit the players we have -- did I mention that many of them are prototypical 4-3 players :stirpot -- and I think he can bring enough to the table to really get this team going.

I'm happy to see fire in Tomlin, and I think this coming season is when he really puts his fingerprints on all aspects of his team...

If we have "prototypical 4-3 players" and you have a D Coordinator playing a scheme because "he invented it" then is he really the guy you need and want?

[SidSmythe]

This POST IS A TOTAL JOKE!!! :wft :wft :wft

IS this defense as dominant as last year??? Probably not ... Having Troy & Aaron Smith out are our biggest problems and yet we still are the top defense in the league.

Lets not forget the freebies we've given up this season on offense and special teams and the terrible field position we've put ourselves in on special teams that weren't returned for TDs.

....and last night we had a 3rd string QB who couldn't sustain drives and our defense was toast come late in the game.

get a clue!!

[LouSteel]

If we have "prototypical 4-3 players" and you have a D Coordinator playing a scheme because "he invented it" then is he really the guy you need and want?

That depends on Lebeau.

I wouldn't be surprised to see him "retire" just before we make that transition.

But if he's willing to stay on board and work within the specifications of what Tomlin wants, I can't say I'm willing to run him out of town.

[aggiebones]

"The 3-4 doesn't surprise anyone anymore. Too many teams are using it so the opponents go into the games every week more ready for what we have than ever. LeBeau has not adjusted or put new wrinkles into his schemes and so we get the same story week after week. The defense fails to make plays late and we lose late leads."


So how come we only struggle late if its the 3-4 in general? Why not all game struggles?
The 3-4 is fine. Maybe the playcalling late is the problem, depending on the situations, maybe the players are making mistakes.
But to say the 3-4 is done without showing entire game examples is flawed. Show a defense that works all the time. The 3-4 works most of the time (not 100%). The criticism of the playcalling is maybe warranted, but maybe they are just stuck in a rut. The 3-4 got popular around the league in the 90s, which hurt the Steelers drafting a bit, but teams couldn't figure it out and jumped off the bandwagon, leaving only the Steelers. Funny how they then won a couple Super Bowls and we rated the TOP defense just last year. NOW its dead, lol.
Lebeau needs to fix his end of game design and we'l be back to normal.
Some players are not ready to start, some are aging quickly. Nature of the beast. We weren't gonna win 3 straight Super Bowls. How quickly we fix sore spots will determine if we can win a couple more.

[Oviedo]

If we have "prototypical 4-3 players" and you have a D Coordinator playing a scheme because "he invented it" then is he really the guy you need and want?

That depends on Lebeau.

I wouldn't be surprised to see him "retire" just before we make that transition.

But if he's willing to stay on board and work within the specifications of what Tomlin wants, I can't say I'm willing to run him out of town.

No one is advocating he leave. This thread is more about the defensive scheme we are playing and whether it is right for our players than the coordinator. I used the title I didn because I knoew it would garner a wide range of comments from those who see the need for change to those who blindly want the status quo.

I have actually hoped for a couple years that LeBeau take a new challenge of taking this defense to a 4-3 but introducing some of his innovations but that now seems unlikely.

[RuthlessBurgher]

The 3-4 is not the problem. As everyone is stating, the defense is playing great through 3 quarters. The difficulty comes late in games when we are trying to hold a lead. In those situations, when teams are trying to mount a comeback, they are typically coming out in passing formations (the 3-4 tends to stifle their run game throughout the first 3 quarters), so we have to counter with nickel and dime defensive formations. Teams seem to be able to find holes in our defense when passing against these specialty defenses and they can occasionally break a long draw play against the nickel or dime. Problems with nickel and dime defenses would still exist regardless of whether our base defense (which is working just fine through 3 quarters) was a 3-4 or a 4-3.

[BURGH86STEEL]

The 3-4 is not the problem. As everyone is stating, the defense is playing great through 3 quarters. The difficulty comes late in games when we are trying to hold a lead. In those situations, when teams are trying to mount a comeback, they are typically coming out in passing formations (the 3-4 tends to stifle their run game throughout the first 3 quarters), so we have to counter with nickel and dime defensive formations. Teams seem to be able to find holes in our defense when passing against these specialty defenses and they can occasionally break a long draw play against the nickel or dime. Problems with nickel and dime defenses would still exist regardless of whether our base defense (which is working just fine through 3 quarters) was a 3-4 or a 4-3.

I agree, 3-4 is not the problem. What's funny is how people want to change the scheme. I guess those people that want to change the scheme don't watch other NFL games. There are times that all defensive schemes have some problems.

In my mind, and once again it's the players. They are not making plays when it really counts. There have been opportunities to make plays. They came up short.

[Oviedo]

The 3-4 is not the problem. As everyone is stating, the defense is playing great through 3 quarters. The difficulty comes late in games when we are trying to hold a lead. In those situations, when teams are trying to mount a comeback, they are typically coming out in passing formations (the 3-4 tends to stifle their run game throughout the first 3 quarters), so we have to counter with nickel and dime defensive formations. Teams seem to be able to find holes in our defense when passing against these specialty defenses and they can occasionally break a long draw play against the nickel or dime. Problems with nickel and dime defenses would still exist regardless of whether our base defense (which is working just fine through 3 quarters) was a 3-4 or a 4-3.

I agree, 3-4 is not the problem. What's funny is how people want to change the scheme. I guess those people that want to change the scheme don't watch other NFL games. There are times that all defensive schemes have some problems.

In my mind, and once again it's the players. They are not making plays when it really counts. There have been opportunities to make plays. They came up short.

I'm confused. I thought it was the coordinators not "the players?" Or is it only the coordinators on offense?

[RuthlessBurgher]

The 3-4 is not the problem. As everyone is stating, the defense is playing great through 3 quarters. The difficulty comes late in games when we are trying to hold a lead. In those situations, when teams are trying to mount a comeback, they are typically coming out in passing formations (the 3-4 tends to stifle their run game throughout the first 3 quarters), so we have to counter with nickel and dime defensive formations. Teams seem to be able to find holes in our defense when passing against these specialty defenses and they can occasionally break a long draw play against the nickel or dime. Problems with nickel and dime defenses would still exist regardless of whether our base defense (which is working just fine through 3 quarters) was a 3-4 or a 4-3.

I agree, 3-4 is not the problem. What's funny is how people want to change the scheme. I guess those people that want to change the scheme don't watch other NFL games. There are times that all defensive schemes have some problems.

In my mind, and once again it's the players. They are not making plays when it really counts. There have been opportunities to make plays. They came up short.

I'm confused. I thought it was the coordinators not "the players?" Or is it only the coordinators on offense?

BURGH86STEEL has been the leader of the "execution" movement (as opposed to the "gameplan" movement) for some time now.

[SteelCrazy]

You guys are morons...LeBeau is the best in the game and you try to blame him? The defense he calls works, the ones playing on D are the problem. Farrior is at fault for that 4th and 5 the Ravens converted. He looked like a high school LB covering Rice.

LeBeau is not the problem.........end thread here.

[LouSteel]

I wouldn't argue that the 4-3 is a perfect defense. But the name of the game is getting the most out of your best players. The scheme has to fit the personnel.

Looking at the roster today, there are some problems over the horizon. Casey is in a contract year, and will likely walk after this season. We're going to need to get a premiere 3-4 NT to make this D work, and that's tough. It's easier to find 4-3 players.

Further, in a 3-4, we've got Keisel and Smith extended -- where do we fit Ziggy?

Drafting for the 3-4 is hard enough, but as so many other teams begin running it, it becomes far more difficult.

I don't have anything against the 3-4. I think some of our players are better suited for a 4-3, our drafts seem to be going in that direction, and Tomlin is a 4-3 guy. I think the handwriting is on the wall at this point. And I'd rather switch the scheme to best use the talent our players have.

[SidSmythe]

more teams are running the 3-4 b/c it's flexible and effective.

To say that teams are catching up to the 3-4 is b/c more teams are running, what makes you think that w/ all the Cover 2 teams out there, teams haven't caught up w/ that too.

[Oviedo]

The 3-4 is not the problem. As everyone is stating, the defense is playing great through 3 quarters. The difficulty comes late in games when we are trying to hold a lead. In those situations, when teams are trying to mount a comeback, they are typically coming out in passing formations (the 3-4 tends to stifle their run game throughout the first 3 quarters), so we have to counter with nickel and dime defensive formations. Teams seem to be able to find holes in our defense when passing against these specialty defenses and they can occasionally break a long draw play against the nickel or dime. Problems with nickel and dime defenses would still exist regardless of whether our base defense (which is working just fine through 3 quarters) was a 3-4 or a 4-3.

I agree, 3-4 is not the problem. What's funny is how people want to change the scheme. I guess those people that want to change the scheme don't watch other NFL games. There are times that all defensive schemes have some problems.

In my mind, and once again it's the players. They are not making plays when it really counts. There have been opportunities to make plays. They came up short.

I'm confused. I thought it was the coordinators not "the players?" Or is it only the coordinators on offense?

BURGH86STEEL has been the leader of the "execution" movement (as opposed to the "gameplan" movement) for some time now.

I also subscribe to the execution over gameplan view of this all.

In my 20 years in the military the one truism that we all acknowldehged is that once you made contact with the enemy all plans went out the window and it became an issue of level of prior training and who performed to the higher standard of execution.

[buckeyehoppy]

:Agree It's not just Gay. Opponents have figured out the scheme and we can't just rely on herculean efforts from Harrison and Woodley to sack the QB to overcome what are clear schematic problems against the pass.

Dare I say 4-3 defense without the lynch mob forming? For 2010:

DE: Woodley
DT: Smith
DT: Hood
DE: Kiesel

LB: Harrison
MLB: Farrior (Draft his replacement in 2010)
LB: Timmons

CB: Taylor
CB: Gay (always reported to be better Cover 2 CB)
SS: Polamalu
FS: Clark

Note the pieces we need are already on the team and we don't need to retain Hampton


This POST IS A TOTAL JOKE!!! :wft :wft :wft

IS this defense as dominant as last year??? Probably not ... Having Troy & Aaron Smith out are our biggest problems and yet we still are the top defense in the league.

Lets not forget the freebies we've given up this season on offense and special teams and the terrible field position we've put ourselves in on special teams that weren't returned for TDs.

....and last night we had a 3rd string QB who couldn't sustain drives and our defense was toast come late in the game.

get a clue!!

Smythe, I can fully agree with your post here except for calling Ovie's take a total joke and telling him to get a clue.

Troy and Aaron being out is a 1,000# gorilla of a problem. It's probably a bigger reason for the ineffectiveness of the secondary than anyone is giving it credit for.

And the giveaways on O and ST are yet another 1,000# gorilla and they are not exclusive problems to this season. SB wins have a way of masking the problems on a team that end up getting overcome to win it all anyway. When a team isn't in line to grab the Lombardi Trophy (and, lets face it, the Steelers are NOT in line), problems like the ones we have giving away scores on O and ST are just that much more magnified.

And so what if DDix couldn't sustain drives? Neither could Benjamin several times in the first ten games. The common denominator there isn't the players... it's the coach. Even when we won the SB last year, how many people here wanted to throw Arians under the bus? I was one... and I had plenty of company.

Now, Ovie, I like what you have proposed here and think that it is completely doable. Hampton isn't going to be here for what he wants $$$wise anyway, so now might be the time to pull the trigger on the Tampa 2.

To be fair to LeBeau, he may elect to ride off into the sunset anyway. The team should be looking for a way to soft pedal his way out the door. Allow him to resign. The only way he gets canned is if he refuses.

One thing is for sure in all of this: Coach Mike Tomlin must put his stamp on his team during this off-season. He's been here three years and it's about time he was able to bring in some of his own people and not have a bunch of hangers-on and castoffs from the previous regime. That's why I'm saying nothing about the Head Coach... he's operating mostly with guys who were already here when he got the job.

[fezziwig]

I have to say, Lebeau is slow at times to adjustments or he is doing really good most of the time with average players.

I agree, our offense has put up the needed points and only to watch the defense allow the opponent to march the ball down field and score. Last night was just another example.

The front lines with the linebackers were on fire in my opinion and our secondary could not captilize upon them. I remember seeing two poorly thrown passes that Troy would have intercepted. Our secondary is the weak link.

Ryan Clark ain't **** without Troy or possibly they're spreading him too thin in Troys absence. Or does he feels he needs to not commit with his own duties with the chance of helping the others.

All in all, the defense lost another one. Farrior needs replaced, he lost a step or two. Deshea needs to pack it in. Hampton isn't what he used to be but, he still brings it. Probably by next season he'll be used up anyway.

Gay better get better because I'm still ticked that McFadden is gone and I originally thought that McFadden would and was better than Ike.

Is Ike told to play so far off the receivers ?

With Clarks lack luster performances of late, it's no wonder they haven't signed him.

[SteelBucks]

This POST IS A TOTAL JOKE!!! :wft :wft :wft

IS this defense as dominant as last year??? Probably not ... Having Troy & Aaron Smith out are our biggest problems and yet we still are the top defense in the league.

Lets not forget the freebies we've given up this season on offense and special teams and the terrible field position we've put ourselves in on special teams that weren't returned for TDs.

....and last night we had a 3rd string QB who couldn't sustain drives and our defense was toast come late in the game.

get a clue!!

:Agree

[Sugar]

This POST IS A TOTAL JOKE!!! :wft :wft :wft

IS this defense as dominant as last year??? Probably not ... Having Troy & Aaron Smith out are our biggest problems and yet we still are the top defense in the league.

Lets not forget the freebies we've given up this season on offense and special teams and the terrible field position we've put ourselves in on special teams that weren't returned for TDs.

....and last night we had a 3rd string QB who couldn't sustain drives and our defense was toast come late in the game.

get a clue!!

:Agree

I don't think DD was much of the problem. He did about as well as could be expected.

I also don't think you can blame a Defense too much that lost it's top run stuffer on the line as well as it's All-Pro Safety but still only gave up 17 points in regulation. 17 points should be more than good enough.

[NorthCoast]

No way can you let Arians off the hook this season.

Against the 29th ranked defense we scored 1 TD.
Against the 25th ranked defense we scored 2 TDs.

With the talent on our offense we should be blowing these teams away with scoring but it just isn't happening and I blame the disjointed playcalling of Arians.

[grotonsteel]

This POST IS A TOTAL JOKE!!! :wft :wft :wft

IS this defense as dominant as last year??? Probably not ... Having Troy & Aaron Smith out are our biggest problems and yet we still are the top defense in the league.

Lets not forget the freebies we've given up this season on offense and special teams and the terrible field position we've put ourselves in on special teams that weren't returned for TDs.

....and last night we had a 3rd string QB who couldn't sustain drives and our defense was toast come late in the game.

get a clue!!

:Agree

I don't think DD was much of the problem. He did about as well as could be expected.

I also don't think you can blame a Defense too much that lost it's top run stuffer on the line as well as it's All-Pro Safety but still only gave up 17 points in regulation. 17 points should be more than good enough.

When you have a 3rd string QB as a starter you expect more from your so called no.1 defense. It was not like Steelers were facing New Orleans Saints Offense.

Steelers D never shows up when needed. I think they have given some 5 80-yards + drive against Kansas City and Baltimore.

Lets see what Tomlin does when he says they will attack in Dec. They way Steelers D is playing don't be surprised if Gradowski (sp chk) looks like Joe Montana.

[BATMAN]

No way can you let Arians off the hook this season.

Against the 29th ranked defense we scored 1 TD.
Against the 25th ranked defense we scored 2 TDs.

With the talent on our offense we should be blowing these teams away with scoring but it just isn't happening and I blame the disjointed playcalling of Arians.



Dude you are right ! As much as I can say the defense should have made a stop and they should have, those guys must be tired at the end of the game.
How many times have our Steelers special teams given the opposing teams gifts of touchdowns, great field position etc ?

How many times did our Steeler offense turn the ball over in their own territory for the defense needing to stop a score on a short field ?

Arians play calling lacks any imagination, doesn't make the defense think or keep them off balance. Never allows are offense into a rythm and when something is workng, he stops doing it.

People want to brag about the 500 yards of offense we put up or this many yards passing or etc, what impresses me is scoring. You can have all the yards you want and if you can't score, big deal.

[Flasteel]

There is some crazy, misinformed stuff being generated in this thread. For those advocating that we "switch" to a cover-2 scheme, here's a news flash...we have and continue to use the cover-2 a great deal of time. LeBeau mixes up cover-2, cover-3, and cover-1 schemes with regularity. The Tampa 2, which so many of you are alluding to, is nothing more than dropping your Mike Linebacker deep to cover the natural soft spot.

For those stating that our personnel our ideally suited to a 4-3...well, they are actually ideally suited for where they are...in a 3-4. Sure they all seem to have great position flexibility, but they fit nicely as is. We will need to find another quality NT soon, but there is zero need to suggest we switch base fronts. I like the idea of multiple fronts and mixing it up with the coverage on the back end.

The main problem with the defense (aside from the obvious loss of Troy & Aaron) is the poor play from our secondary. I thought Gay was going to be solid in coverage, but the guy has been roasted with regularity. With the exception of an injured Polamalu, NOBODY in our secondary has any type of ball skills. Clark and Taylor both missed easy interceptions last night (Clark twice) if they track the ball and make the play...it was horrible.

[Shoe]

He's currently coaching a top 3 defense.

If the above is correct... c'mon guys. To say he is "the problem" is ridiculous.
I'm not saying he is blameless, as all this late lead-blowing sucks. But let's not lose sight of reality. Top 3?

Last night was missed tackles galore.

[Lonbull]

IMO - LeBeau is far from "the" problem.

The 3-4 scheme he uses clearly works when he has the right players (please see 2008 Season). I think the main problem on defense is lack of depth -

Aaron Smith - OUT - The back-ups have been okay, but nothing stellar.
Casey Hampton - Aging - Casey still does his job well - but his best play is behind him.
Brett Keisel - Solid....however Keisel has never been a dominant kind of player.

James Harrison - Lights out - give this guy either a little better coverage or the occasional holding call, and he's worth every dime the Steelers are paying him.

Lawrence Timmons - Mid first rounder.....really?? -- I haven't been impressed with Timmons yet. He has all the tools but rarely makes the plays. Against the Ravens he looked great. But I certainly don't think Offenses are intimidated by him yet.

James Farrior - Farrior has not looked good this season - however I don't know how much this may be because he doesn't have Foote next to him or Troy behind him?

Lamarr Woodley - Woodley definitely disappears from time to time - but overall I think he's been very solid. And I do think teams are intimidated by his ability.

Ike Taylor - Pro Bowl quality CB. Just doesn't put up the INT's.

Ryan Clark - As long as Troy Polamalu is next to him he's very serviceable.

Tyrone Carter - I've been crying for a replacement for at least two seasons now. Huge Dropoff from when Troy is in the game.

Willam Gay - To me he is what he is - which is a "bargain" starter. On the offensive side of the ball it's Colon. I'm just hopeful that after Joe Burnett and Keenan Lewis get done with their LeBeau Redshirt Season they can challenge Gay for the starting role.

*Curious if Gay could play Free Safety?


All of that aside - I think defensive depth is more of a problem right now than LeBeau. And while I agree that the Defense has had no luck "closing" out games this year - the offense and special teams haven't really "closed" out any games either.

L.B.

[steelblood]

Some equal opportunity criticism of coordinators is well past due. Everyone wants to worship LeBeau but he has consistently been able to make the adjustments necessary to win close games. Four losses by a FG and one more by 2 FGs and losing late leads.

The front seven is getting the job done but LeBeau has been totally unable to get the back four to do what they need to do.

The 3-4 doesn't surprise anyone anymore. Too many teams are using it so the opponents go into the games every week more ready for what we have than ever. LeBeau has not adjusted or put new wrinkles into his schemes and so we get the same story week after week. The defense fails to make plays late and we lose late leads.

Our offense and the oft criticized Bruce Arians has been doing the job. The defense and LeBeau haven't.

I agree that this defense has played poorly late in games. Otherwise, they have been very good. And while I agree that coverage is the main issue late in games, it is tough for me to exonerate the front seven for late game failures. Harrison had a huge penalty vs. Cincy, Farrior has given up 2 huge plays in coverage, the pressure isn't always there late.

[Oviedo]

Some equal opportunity criticism of coordinators is well past due. Everyone wants to worship LeBeau but he has consistently been able to make the adjustments necessary to win close games. Four losses by a FG and one more by 2 FGs and losing late leads.

The front seven is getting the job done but LeBeau has been totally unable to get the back four to do what they need to do.

The 3-4 doesn't surprise anyone anymore. Too many teams are using it so the opponents go into the games every week more ready for what we have than ever. LeBeau has not adjusted or put new wrinkles into his schemes and so we get the same story week after week. The defense fails to make plays late and we lose late leads.

Our offense and the oft criticized Bruce Arians has been doing the job. The defense and LeBeau haven't.

I agree that this defense has played poorly late in games. Otherwise, they have been very good. And while I agree that coverage is the main issue late in games, it is tough for me to exonerate the front seven for late game failures. Harrison had a huge penalty vs. Cincy, Farrior has given up 2 huge plays in coverage, the pressure isn't always there late.


I think the front seven's inability to get to the passer at critical times has been a problem. Woodley is now just starting to get it in gear and if not for Timmons adding 6 sacks from the ILB position I think things would actually be worse.

I started this thread not so much as a criticism of Lebeau as much as a way to discuss whether we are using the scheme that best fits the players we have. When you have as many late game failures as we have had this season it is more than an anomoly. Offenses are clearly seeing something they can and have attacked with success. There are enough knowledgeable fans on this board who like me can almost tell exactly when Harrison and Woodley are going to rush and when they aren't. The opponents know too and unfortunaely the refs are not going to start to call holding penalties which remains an embarassment for this league.

That means a great deal of pressure on the secondary and whn you rush Harrison and Woodley you are now creating holes for short passes. Just think we need to be open minded about the scheme we are playing. Nothing should be ignored in an in depth rectal exam of everything after this season.

[SteelBucks]

Some equal opportunity criticism of coordinators is well past due. Everyone wants to worship LeBeau but he has consistently been able to make the adjustments necessary to win close games. Four losses by a FG and one more by 2 FGs and losing late leads.

The front seven is getting the job done but LeBeau has been totally unable to get the back four to do what they need to do.

The 3-4 doesn't surprise anyone anymore. Too many teams are using it so the opponents go into the games every week more ready for what we have than ever. LeBeau has not adjusted or put new wrinkles into his schemes and so we get the same story week after week. The defense fails to make plays late and we lose late leads.

Our offense and the oft criticized Bruce Arians has been doing the job. The defense and LeBeau haven't.

I agree that this defense has played poorly late in games. Otherwise, they have been very good. And while I agree that coverage is the main issue late in games, it is tough for me to exonerate the front seven for late game failures. Harrison had a huge penalty vs. Cincy, Farrior has given up 2 huge plays in coverage, the pressure isn't always there late.


I think the front seven's inability to get to the passer at critical times has been a problem. Woodley is now just starting to get it in gear and if not for Timmons adding 6 sacks from the ILB position I think things would actually be worse.

I started this thread not so much as a criticism of Lebeau as much as a way to discuss whether we are using the scheme that best fits the players we have. When you have as many late game failures as we have had this season it is more than an anomoly. Offenses are clearly seeing something they can and have attacked with success. There are enough knowledgeable fans on this board who like me can almost tell exactly when Harrison and Woodley are going to rush and when they aren't. The opponents know too and unfortunaely the refs are not going to start to call holding penalties which remains an embarassment for this league.

That means a great deal of pressure on the secondary and whn you rush Harrison and Woodley you are now creating holes for short passes. Just think we need to be open minded about the scheme we are playing. Nothing should be ignored in an in depth rectal exam of everything after this season.

Missed tackles, communication issues, missed assignments and injuries is killing the defense. It has nothing to do with scheme....it's execution.

[Oviedo]

Some equal opportunity criticism of coordinators is well past due. Everyone wants to worship LeBeau but he has consistently been able to make the adjustments necessary to win close games. Four losses by a FG and one more by 2 FGs and losing late leads.

The front seven is getting the job done but LeBeau has been totally unable to get the back four to do what they need to do.

The 3-4 doesn't surprise anyone anymore. Too many teams are using it so the opponents go into the games every week more ready for what we have than ever. LeBeau has not adjusted or put new wrinkles into his schemes and so we get the same story week after week. The defense fails to make plays late and we lose late leads.

Our offense and the oft criticized Bruce Arians has been doing the job. The defense and LeBeau haven't.

I agree that this defense has played poorly late in games. Otherwise, they have been very good. And while I agree that coverage is the main issue late in games, it is tough for me to exonerate the front seven for late game failures. Harrison had a huge penalty vs. Cincy, Farrior has given up 2 huge plays in coverage, the pressure isn't always there late.


I think the front seven's inability to get to the passer at critical times has been a problem. Woodley is now just starting to get it in gear and if not for Timmons adding 6 sacks from the ILB position I think things would actually be worse.

I started this thread not so much as a criticism of Lebeau as much as a way to discuss whether we are using the scheme that best fits the players we have. When you have as many late game failures as we have had this season it is more than an anomoly. Offenses are clearly seeing something they can and have attacked with success. There are enough knowledgeable fans on this board who like me can almost tell exactly when Harrison and Woodley are going to rush and when they aren't. The opponents know too and unfortunaely the refs are not going to start to call holding penalties which remains an embarassment for this league.

That means a great deal of pressure on the secondary and whn you rush Harrison and Woodley you are now creating holes for short passes. Just think we need to be open minded about the scheme we are playing. Nothing should be ignored in an in depth rectal exam of everything after this season.

Missed tackles, communication issues, missed assignments and injuries is killing the defense. It has nothing to do with scheme....it's execution.

Don't think we should blindly adhere to the mantra that we are a 3-4 defense and should be a 3-4 defense forever anymore than we should cling to the notion that we are a "power running team" irregardless of the personnel we have and the rules the league implements. We were once a pretty phenomenal 4-3 team too.

I still say that we a need a clearheaded assessment of what defense works best for the people we have and more importantly the people we need to pull out of the talent pipeline going forward.

[steelernation77]

The defense was missing two of its best players and is coming off one of the best years in franchise history. Sure some players need to be added to patch some holes, but it's definitely not worth scrapping the entire scheme.

Step away fro the ledge people.

[ikestops85]

The idea that other teams have all of a sudden 'figured out' the 3-4 defense is ludicrous. They have known how to beat it for a long time now. LeBeau's philosophy has always been if you can string 12-14 plays together without making a mistake you will score on us.

The key to this is shut down the run and pressure the QB. We have shut down the run for the most part this season but we have not been consistent with the pressure on the QB. This exposes our corners who are taught to keep the play in front of them, make the tackle if caught and intercept the errant pass. When was the last time you saw one of our corners jump an out route? Burnett in pre-season was the last I remember and he was the nickel back.

Now I don't see how anybody thinks switching to the 4-3 will help us out. The strength of the team is still the linebacking unit. Moving to the 4-3 means we lose either Harrison or Woodley as pass rushers. Woodley might be able to play DE but Harrison --- never.

This team is perfectly suited for the 3-4 defense and is positioned to stay that way for a while. This is like any other year ... we get hot at the end and we have a chance to win it all. If we don't get hot then does it matter if we make the playoffs? I'm spoiled because I've been around for all 6 SB championships. Where a bengals fan might be happy just to make the playoffs I'm not unless we go all the way.

:tt2 :tt2

[birtikidis]

you guys make it sound that our defense is as bad as it was good last year.

[Oviedo]

The idea that other teams have all of a sudden 'figured out' the 3-4 defense is ludicrous. They have known how to beat it for a long time now. LeBeau's philosophy has always been if you can string 12-14 plays together without making a mistake you will score on us.

The key to this is shut down the run and pressure the QB. We have shut down the run for the most part this season but we have not been consistent with the pressure on the QB. This exposes our corners who are taught to keep the play in front of them, make the tackle if caught and intercept the errant pass. When was the last time you saw one of our corners jump an out route? Burnett in pre-season was the last I remember and he was the nickel back.

Now I don't see how anybody thinks switching to the 4-3 will help us out. The strength of the team is still the linebacking unit. Moving to the 4-3 means we lose either Harrison or Woodley as pass rushers. Woodley might be able to play DE but Harrison --- never.

This team is perfectly suited for the 3-4 defense and is positioned to stay that way for a while. This is like any other year ... we get hot at the end and we have a chance to win it all. If we don't get hot then does it matter if we make the playoffs? I'm spoiled because I've been around for all 6 SB championships. Where a bengals fan might be happy just to make the playoffs I'm not unless we go all the way.

:tt2 :tt2

As you point out you don't lose Woodley as a pass rusher but you probably make him more dangerous rushing out of the DE position where he doesn't have coverage resposnsibility and can pin his ears back and go after the QB.

Not sure how you believe we are positioned for the 3-4 when the moist importnat piece of your run defense is the NT and we have an aging NT and no one to play in that psoition. It will also be difficult to get a replacement NT who could play to thelevel Hampton did his first 5 years in the league. I just don't see those players in college becaudse most college defenses are being forced to react to spread offenses and have faster, quicker penetrating linemen like Hood was in college. Not many of the top defenses are predicated on run stoppers.

[RuthlessBurgher]

The idea that other teams have all of a sudden 'figured out' the 3-4 defense is ludicrous. They have known how to beat it for a long time now. LeBeau's philosophy has always been if you can string 12-14 plays together without making a mistake you will score on us.

The key to this is shut down the run and pressure the QB. We have shut down the run for the most part this season but we have not been consistent with the pressure on the QB. This exposes our corners who are taught to keep the play in front of them, make the tackle if caught and intercept the errant pass. When was the last time you saw one of our corners jump an out route? Burnett in pre-season was the last I remember and he was the nickel back.

Now I don't see how anybody thinks switching to the 4-3 will help us out. The strength of the team is still the linebacking unit. Moving to the 4-3 means we lose either Harrison or Woodley as pass rushers. Woodley might be able to play DE but Harrison --- never.

This team is perfectly suited for the 3-4 defense and is positioned to stay that way for a while. This is like any other year ... we get hot at the end and we have a chance to win it all. If we don't get hot then does it matter if we make the playoffs? I'm spoiled because I've been around for all 6 SB championships. Where a bengals fan might be happy just to make the playoffs I'm not unless we go all the way.

:tt2 :tt2

As you point out you don't lose Woodley as a pass rusher but you probably make him more dangerous rushing out of the DE position where he doesn't have coverage resposnsibility and can pin his ears back and go after the QB.

Not sure how you believe we are positioned for the 3-4 when the moist importnat piece of your run defense is the NT and we have an aging NT and no one to play in that psoition. It will also be difficult to get a replacement NT who could play to thelevel Hampton did his first 5 years in the league. I just don't see those players in college becaudse most college defenses are being forced to react to spread offenses and have faster, quicker penetrating linemen like Hood was in college. Not many of the top defenses are predicated on run stoppers.

Even when you run a 4-3 defense, you tend to have one penetrating DT and one run-stuffing DT (for example, on the excellent Viking d-line, think Kevin Williams for the former job and Pat Williams for the latter). In your proposed 4-3 front, you include Hood as our penetrating DT and Aaron Smith as our run-stuffing DT. But since Smith won't be around forever, we would still need to draft a run-stuffing DT as a priority regardless of whether we stay with the 3-4 or switch to the 4-3.

[ikestops85]

As you point out you don't lose Woodley as a pass rusher but you probably make him more dangerous rushing out of the DE position where he doesn't have coverage resposnsibility and can pin his ears back and go after the QB.
He does that now for the most part. Yes he does drop into coverage some but that is because we have a lot of talented people who can rush the QB. The idea being that the offense never knows who is coming. Moving to the 4-3 means Harrison NEVER rushes unless you blitz. Do you really want to lose that capability?


Not sure how you believe we are positioned for the 3-4 when the moist importnat piece of your run defense is the NT and we have an aging NT and no one to play in that psoition. It will also be difficult to get a replacement NT who could play to thelevel Hampton did his first 5 years in the league. I just don't see those players in college becaudse most college defenses are being forced to react to spread offenses and have faster, quicker penetrating linemen like Hood was in college. Not many of the top defenses are predicated on run stoppers.

I don't think it will be that difficult to get another great NT. After all Hampton was a DT at Texas playing alongside Shaun Rogers. There will always be players at the college level, big slabs of beef that are hard to move, that we can draft and teach the position. That's what coaches are for.

Anybody else out there think Hampton is having a resurgent year? I think he is playing better this year than he has in the past 3 or 4 years. Probably just because it is a contract year but it has surprised me.

[buckeyehoppy]

you guys make it sound that our defense is as bad as it was good last year.

jbirt, I'm pretty sure that the drop off is just a result of a certain amount of natural inertia. It's nearly impossible to sustain what we saw last year. That's how special the effort on D was in 2008. We still look good out there... it's just not 2008-type good.

Lots of people blame the scheme and others blame the execution. My take: it's probably a little of both.

It probably wouldn't hurt to check ourselves where it concerns our D. Last season was a very rare find.

[feltdizz]

We lose 4 games after we get the lead late in the fouth quarter...
KC, Titans, Bungles, Ravens, Chicago... All march 80+ yards down field on our D in 3 to 4 plays...

and our D is 't a problem this year?

LMFAO... Goodbye common sense..

Are you dolts watching the Steelers at the end of games or are you watching and cheering for the other team? Sounds like some fans forgot who the Steelers are... They are the team giving up mega yards and long "game losing" drives.

[NorthCoast]

Some equal opportunity criticism of coordinators is well past due. Everyone wants to worship LeBeau but he has consistently been able to make the adjustments necessary to win close games. Four losses by a FG and one more by 2 FGs and losing late leads.

The front seven is getting the job done but LeBeau has been totally unable to get the back four to do what they need to do.

The 3-4 doesn't surprise anyone anymore. Too many teams are using it so the opponents go into the games every week more ready for what we have than ever. LeBeau has not adjusted or put new wrinkles into his schemes and so we get the same story week after week. The defense fails to make plays late and we lose late leads.

Our offense and the oft criticized Bruce Arians has been doing the job. The defense and LeBeau haven't.

I agree that this defense has played poorly late in games. Otherwise, they have been very good. And while I agree that coverage is the main issue late in games, it is tough for me to exonerate the front seven for late game failures. Harrison had a huge penalty vs. Cincy, Farrior has given up 2 huge plays in coverage, the pressure isn't always there late.


I think the front seven's inability to get to the passer at critical times has been a problem. Woodley is now just starting to get it in gear and if not for Timmons adding 6 sacks from the ILB position I think things would actually be worse.

I started this thread not so much as a criticism of Lebeau as much as a way to discuss whether we are using the scheme that best fits the players we have. When you have as many late game failures as we have had this season it is more than an anomoly. Offenses are clearly seeing something they can and have attacked with success. There are enough knowledgeable fans on this board who like me can almost tell exactly when Harrison and Woodley are going to rush and when they aren't. The opponents know too and unfortunaely the refs are not going to start to call holding penalties which remains an embarassment for this league.

That means a great deal of pressure on the secondary and whn you rush Harrison and Woodley you are now creating holes for short passes. Just think we need to be open minded about the scheme we are playing. Nothing should be ignored in an in depth rectal exam of everything after this season.

Missed tackles, communication issues, missed assignments and injuries is killing the defense. It has nothing to do with scheme....it's execution.

In contrast to my opinion on Arians, I agree with the execution argument in this case. The difference is that the Defense and LeBeau's scheme have a long history of past success while the offense since BA has a checkered history of inconsistency from season to season and even week to week. Individual games can be blamed on execution but over time the trend of scheme and gameplanning shine through (or rather DON'T shine through for BA). We have not been an offensive juggernaut for a long time.

[Oviedo]

As I said when I started this, I think today's game proved the point. The scheme we run doesn't work anymore. The league has figured it out and our defensive coordinator hasn't.

[cruzer8]

As I said when I started this, I think today's game proved the point. The scheme we run doesn't work anymore. The league has figured it out and our defensive coordinator hasn't.

The scheme works fine for other teams.

[Chadman]

Not sure how you believe we are positioned for the 3-4 when the moist importnat piece of your run defense is the NT and we have an aging NT and no one to play in that psoition. It will also be difficult to get a replacement NT who could play to thelevel Hampton did his first 5 years in the league. I just don't see those players in college becaudse most college defenses are being forced to react to spread offenses and have faster, quicker penetrating linemen like Hood was in college. Not many of the top defenses are predicated on run stoppers.

I don't think it will be that difficult to get another great NT. After all Hampton was a DT at Texas playing alongside Shaun Rogers. There will always be players at the college level, big slabs of beef that are hard to move, that we can draft and teach the position. That's what coaches are for.

Anybody else out there think Hampton is having a resurgent year? I think he is playing better this year than he has in the past 3 or 4 years. Probably just because it is a contract year but it has surprised me.


Do you remember replacing Joel Steed with Kimo Von Oelhoffen as the NT? Remember how the Steelers were regularly ripped up on the ground that year? Getting a prefect fit NT for a 3-4 isn't 'easy'. And looking at the crop of youngsters coming through this draft, there isn't a lot of stand-out types that will fit the NT position.


The Steelers need to make a decision early- either resign Hampton, grab a replacement that is as close to 'can't miss' as possible, or do as Oviedo suggests- look at alternate schemes that suit the personel on the roster.

[Steel Life]

As I said when I started this, I think today's game proved the point. The scheme we run doesn't work anymore. The league has figured it out and our defensive coordinator hasn't.
That is an easy claim to make when your defense is missing two of its best players. Troy alone makes plays that would've ended games that turned out to be losses.

That said, I think our starting DBs need to look themselves in the eye & decide to step up. The effort by both Ike & Gay has seemed indifferent, Townsend seems done & while I'm okay with Clark, Carter - aside from Denver - has been terrible.

[feltdizz]

THIS :D :D :D POST IS A JOKE

[LouSteel]

That is an easy claim to make when your defense is missing two of its best players. Troy alone makes plays that would've ended games that turned out to be losses.

If our defensive mastermind's scheme is predicated solely on Troy's play, he should've been fired a long time ago.

Troy is a freaking stud, that's fine. He wins games single-handedly. No argument. But one SS is not solely responsible for holding off three passing TDs from a team that had thrown five all season! :nono

[NWNewell]

It's not LeBeau.... It's partially the absense of Troy.

The problem is we have no depth at the secondary. Ike Taylor is our only CB (sure he has some problems, but he's pretty solid). Clark is a solid safety, but after than we have no one else without Troy in there.

Troy has the ability to make up for the short comings at our other CB position. But without him, not only is our other CB much more exposed, but now we have much weaker safety play to boot.

You saw where 90% of the passes were going.... Gay, Mundy, Carter. Everyone knows they are terrible and the secondary is getting thorched.

On the one TD pass Ike got beat one... Carter was suppose to be safety help on the inside, but he bit on the play fake and left Ike hanging out to dry.

Carter wasn't even close to covering a WR on a second TD pass.

Two TD's were primarly given up by Carter. Don't tell me we don't miss Troy. Say anything you want about how one player shouldn't make that big of a difference, etc, etc. But most good teams hing one 2-3 great players. When one of those players is arguably the best defensive player in the league, you are not going to be the same without him in there. Should they still have made more plays and been able to beat the freakin' Raiders. Of course! There is no excuse for that lose. But I don't care how good your scheme is... if your player's can't (or don't) make plays, it's not going to matter.

[BradshawsHairdresser]

Chuck Noll says there's an opening in the assisted living facility where he lives...if LeBeau
goes right now he can have it.

[SteelCzar76]

Coach Lebeau is one of the greatest defensive minds to have ever graced the game. THE PROBLEM,...is sub par personnel. Nothing more,...nothing less.

[JUST-PLAIN-NASTY]

Well...Here is my feelings from another tread.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9356&start=15 (http://www.planetsteelers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9356&start=15)


The thing that concerns me is this is the 3rd time it was nationally reported that the plays got in late or there was confusion. Now, I fail to believe that they would be the only 3 times a play was late getting in. All on hurry up. So if this happens more in the game and DL is making the play calls........

I'm just saying.

There was clear confusion on the plays referenced. I'm not going to throw DL under the bus because he has meant everything to the Steelers and will be a HOF player...But there comes a time in a coaches career...Where things don't come to you as quickly. Being around football...A great football mind needs to a decisive football mind that makes a decision within seconds. I can't believe this thought came into my head again on Sunday. But evidence is hard to look away from. We haven't heard problem with Farrior's helmet or radios were down...We heard the play didn't get to everyone. That means there was a delay from the sideline. I haven't said anything in the past but football knowledge leads me to believe what my eyes see. 4th quarter collapses out of hurry up and calls not getting to the players adds up to something to me. When DL can call plays based on down & distance he looks to be unstoppable. Add in the urgency factor being dictated by the offense...The secondary seems to collapse. The players love & respect DL as well as myself. He is great and always will be in my mind....BUT...To no fault of DL...The mind doesn't fire at the same rate forever! Forgive me for saying that DL..........


I also read between the lines of Tomlin's quote.
"Nothing stays the same in this game," Tomlin said. "Players are ascending, players are descending. People catch up with schemes, schemes evolve. Playing and coaching, this thing is ever-changing."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d ... nfirm=true (http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d814cba55&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true)

DL retiring after this season will tell me if what I'm seeing is true. As a true Steeler fan...Love ya DL!

[Oviedo]

Coach Lebeau is one of the greatest defensive minds to have ever graced the game. THE PROBLEM,...is sub par personnel. Nothing more,...nothing less.


But I thought just like on offense it isn't the players it is calls the coordinator is making? Am I wrong or is it different on defense? Doesn't he prepare them for the opponents?Doesn't LeBeau makes the calls on the defensive backfield and what scheme they are playing on any given play? Isn't LeBeau responsible for making adjustmemts both during games and between games to eliminate negative results?

Sorry but LeBeau cannot get a pass on any of this and deserves to be ripped just like Arians. Arians didn't get a pass when Kemo was out. Arians didn't get a pass when ben was out. If LeBeau designed his defense and it falls apart when one player (Troy) is out of the line up that would seem to me to be pretty bad planning and judgement.

Don't mistake me for a LeBeau hater because I have nothing but respect for anyone who can coach at that level because they are smarter than I will ever be. I just overplay this to make a point that we have a double standard in perceptions on this board about our coordinators. This is probably because we have grown up worshipping defense as Steelers fans so anyone assocuiated with it is given a higher status in our perceptions. But, the goal should be winning...period. Even if you are a "legend" if you aren't getting the job done you need to be critically assessed.

I state this to make a point that because a "legend" has made his mark using a specific defense maybe we are holding on to it a bit too long to the deference of the "legend" when we don't have the right personnel to execute it no matter what the stats and rankings say.

What we have to consider is the performance of the defense this season an anomoly or an indicator of a trend given the personnel we have. Given what happened for 6 games I think it is more than an anomoly. There are systemic issues that need to be fixed.

[RuthlessBurgher]

I still don't understand how you think switching from a 3-4 base defense to a 4-3 base defense is going to correct the fact that teams are able to throw on us late in games. In each of these instances, they are throwing against our nickel or dime defense (both of which utilize 4 down lineman, by the way), not our base 3-4. If we ran a 4-3 base instead of a 3-4 base, they would still be throwing the ball against our nickel or dime defense late in the game. The problem comes because we have to have 5 or 6 DB's on the field at the same time, when he only have maybe 2 adequate DB's with Troy out (Gay's a weakness, Deshea's a weakness, Carter's a weakness, Mundy's a weakness, and Ike and Clark have been barely adequate recently). Switching the front 7 from having 4 linebackers to having 4 d-lineman in our base set will not fix this whatsoever...we just have to hope that Lewis and Burnett are able to pan out and that we draft some quality depth at safety. Our base 3-4 defense is fine (teams cannot run against, it, and it tends to hold teams to very few points through 3 quarters until the nickel and dime sub packages blow it in the 4th when the other team goes pass-happy trying to catch up).

[Oviedo]

I still don't understand how you think switching from a 3-4 base defense to a 4-3 base defense is going to correct the fact that teams are able to throw on us late in games. In each of these instances, they are throwing against our nickel or dime defense (both of which utilize 4 down lineman, by the way), not our base 3-4. If we ran a 4-3 base instead of a 3-4 base, they would still be throwing the ball against our nickel or dime defense late in the game. The problem comes because we have to have 5 or 6 DB's on the field at the same time, when he only have maybe 2 adequate DB's with Troy out (Gay's a weakness, Deshea's a weakness, Carter's a weakness, Mundy's a weakness, and Ike and Clark have been barely adequate recently). Switching the front 7 from having 4 linebackers to having 4 d-lineman in our base set will not fix this whatsoever...we just have to hope that Lewis and Burnett are able to pan out and that we draft some quality depth at safety. Our base 3-4 defense is fine (teams cannot run against, it, and it tends to hold teams to very few points through 3 quarters until the nickel and dime sub packages blow it in the 4th when the other team goes pass-happy trying to catch up).

I have no idea whether Im right and I just express an opinion/preference. IMO I prefer the line play of a 4-3 defense where the DL attackes more than our does in the 3-4. You are as knowledgeable as anyone on this board and watching games both of us can predict with 80+% accuracy exactly when Harrison and Woodley are going to rush the passer. Every opponent can see the same thing and they are counteracting it more and more. They know to throw to the space vacated by our OLBs and let the receivers make yards after the catch.

If you think it is just the use of nickle and dime defense that is responsible for late game collapses why does our DC not see that and insist on doing it over and over and over? he is one of the most respected defensive minds in football but he does the same thing that fails over and over. If we were talking offense we would be talking about Arians being stubborn and unable to make adjustments during the game.

I have no idea whether a 4-3 would be better. However, I don't think it could be worse primarily because IMO it would be easier to restock talent and we could get that talent in games contributing sooner versus waiting one to two years to learn the complexity of the defense or have to essentially learn a new position because we are converting DE to OLBs and DTs to DEs. IMO if we had played the 4-3 Ziggy would had been playing since Day 1 as part of a DT rotation. Now 12 games into the season we are just starting to see him get into games.

[SteelBucks]

I still don't understand how you think switching from a 3-4 base defense to a 4-3 base defense is going to correct the fact that teams are able to throw on us late in games. In each of these instances, they are throwing against our nickel or dime defense (both of which utilize 4 down lineman, by the way), not our base 3-4. If we ran a 4-3 base instead of a 3-4 base, they would still be throwing the ball against our nickel or dime defense late in the game. The problem comes because we have to have 5 or 6 DB's on the field at the same time, when he only have maybe 2 adequate DB's with Troy out (Gay's a weakness, Deshea's a weakness, Carter's a weakness, Mundy's a weakness, and Ike and Clark have been barely adequate recently). Switching the front 7 from having 4 linebackers to having 4 d-lineman in our base set will not fix this whatsoever...we just have to hope that Lewis and Burnett are able to pan out and that we draft some quality depth at safety. Our base 3-4 defense is fine (teams cannot run against, it, and it tends to hold teams to very few points through 3 quarters until the nickel and dime sub packages blow it in the 4th when the other team goes pass-happy trying to catch up).

$$$

[ramblinjim]

Chuck Noll says there's an opening in the assisted living facility where he lives...if LeBeau
goes right now he can have it.


This is a cheap shot DL looks great for someone at fifty, let alone 70, show some respect.

[RockyMountainSteeler]

I still don't understand how you think switching from a 3-4 base defense to a 4-3 base defense is going to correct the fact that teams are able to throw on us late in games. In each of these instances, they are throwing against our nickel or dime defense (both of which utilize 4 down lineman, by the way), not our base 3-4. If we ran a 4-3 base instead of a 3-4 base, they would still be throwing the ball against our nickel or dime defense late in the game. The problem comes because we have to have 5 or 6 DB's on the field at the same time, when he only have maybe 2 adequate DB's with Troy out (Gay's a weakness, Deshea's a weakness, Carter's a weakness, Mundy's a weakness, and Ike and Clark have been barely adequate recently). Switching the front 7 from having 4 linebackers to having 4 d-lineman in our base set will not fix this whatsoever...we just have to hope that Lewis and Burnett are able to pan out and that we draft some quality depth at safety. Our base 3-4 defense is fine (teams cannot run against, it, and it tends to hold teams to very few points through 3 quarters until the nickel and dime sub packages blow it in the 4th when the other team goes pass-happy trying to catch up).

$$$

Couldn't agree more.

How many times last year did our players come up with game changing interceptions? I can think of at least 4. TP against the Chargers diving int, TP game clinching int against Baltimore in the AFC Championship, DT int to wint the game against Dallas and Harrison's int in the Super Bowl. DL put his players in position to make plays last year and he has done the same thing this year except our players are dropping the ball. Our DBs have dropped way too many ints that would have changed outcomes of games this year.

Does it make a difference that Troy and Arron Smith are out of the lineup? Definately. It does not make a difference what scheme we are running up front if our guys on the back end don't make the play. When DL does decide to step down we can look at whatever scheme the new DC wants to run but to say DL needs to go or we need to switch defenses is just wrong. Hopefully Lewis and Burnett can show some promise at the end of the season and we can draft accordingly but the simple and plain fact is that our players need to make the plays when given the chance and so far this year they have failed to do so.

[flippy]

Having seen them live, you can definitely see defensive plays not getting in on time.

[SteelCzar76]

Coach Lebeau is one of the greatest defensive minds to have ever graced the game. THE PROBLEM,...is sub par personnel. Nothing more,...nothing less.


But I thought just like on offense it isn't the players it is calls the coordinator is making? Am I wrong or is it different on defense? Doesn't he prepare them for the opponents?Doesn't LeBeau makes the calls on the defensive backfield and what scheme they are playing on any given play? Isn't LeBeau responsible for making adjustmemts both during games and between games to eliminate negative results?

Sorry but LeBeau cannot get a pass on any of this and deserves to be ripped just like Arians. Arians didn't get a pass when Kemo was out. Arians didn't get a pass when ben was out. If LeBeau designed his defense and it falls apart when one player (Troy) is out of the line up that would seem to me to be pretty bad planning and judgement.

Don't mistake me for a LeBeau hater because I have nothing but respect for anyone who can coach at that level because they are smarter than I will ever be. I just overplay this to make a point that we have a double standard in perceptions on this board about our coordinators. This is probably because we have grown up worshipping defense as Steelers fans so anyone assocuiated with it is given a higher status in our perceptions. But, the goal should be winning...period. Even if you are a "legend" if you aren't getting the job done you need to be critically assessed.

I state this to make a point that because a "legend" has made his mark using a specific defense maybe we are holding on to it a bit too long to the deference of the "legend" when we don't have the right personnel to execute it no matter what the stats and rankings say.

What we have to consider is the performance of the defense this season an anomoly or an indicator of a trend given the personnel we have. Given what happened for 6 games I think it is more than an anomoly. There are systemic issues that need to be fixed.


Very well said O, and i agree to certain extent. But in truth i am a firm believer that execution (or lack thereof) is the most vital portion of a successful formula. This includes even potentially inept as BA's.

What i mean is,...just imagine if Roethlisberger was an accurate, cerebral, hard working Qb whom could run an offense exactly as it was drawn up ? And say we had a back and or backs whom were truthfully consistent, physical, between the tackles type of runners ?

Sure,.... Arians' system even then wouldn't have anyone comparing his offensive acumen to Bill Walsh,...but i believe that we would consistently score a great many more points than we are currently capable of,......

[feltdizz]

Having seen them live, you can definitely see defensive plays not getting in on time.

maybe so.. but I think with Troy our there he would call a play his damn self...

I really think LeBeau still has it but I think he put too much on Troy and has ignored the obvious... without Troy our secondary is swiss cheese and it should be capable of making one stop in the 4th quarter when the game is on the line....