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NorthCoast
11-28-2009, 10:04 AM
Found this interesting info on another MB. Unfortunately it still does not answer the question of whether it is BA or Ben actually making these calls. We have definitely gone to a much higher risk offense and I suppose those that were screaming to Cowher about turtle ball now get to reap the rewards. I don't think anyone can disagree that there has got to be a better balance than what we have today. Hopefully we will find it before the season ends for us.



Arians play calling is killing drives, and it is telling the defense what is coming most of the time.

Examples: (only 3rd down, the other downs are a mess too)

3rd down 3 or less: 34 plays, 24 pass, 10 run, 15 times showing shotgun, 7 completions, 7 deep passes, 0 deep completions, 1 interception, and 1 TD, 1 sack. We have run the ball 10 times, and converted 6 times.

3rd down 4 to 9 yards: 43 plays, 43 pass, 0 run, 43 times showing shotgun, 17 completions, 11 deep passes, 1 deep completion, 1 interception, 1 fumble, 7 sacks, 0 TD, 1 busted play scramble by Ben.

On third and over 10: Ben has thrown deep 15 times, in 22 attempts, 7 total completions, 3 deep passes completed, 1 TD, 2 Interceptions, 3 sacks, 2 fumbles

So Arians has had him throw deep 33 times on 3rd down for 4 completions, with a suspect line, and showing hardly any possibility of a run to keep the defense honest, not to mention all the times he has went open backfield.

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/messages/chrono/18501116/0/L

Mister Pittsburgh
11-28-2009, 11:00 AM
Found this interesting info on another MB. Unfortunately it still does not answer the question of whether it is BA or Ben actually making these calls. We have definitely gone to a much higher risk offense and I suppose those that were screaming to Cowher about turtle ball now get to reap the rewards. I don't think anyone can disagree that there has got to be a better balance than what we have today. Hopefully we will find it before the season ends for us.



Arians play calling is killing drives, and it is telling the defense what is coming most of the time.

Examples: (only 3rd down, the other downs are a mess too)

3rd down 3 or less: 34 plays, 24 pass, 10 run, 15 times showing shotgun, 7 completions, 7 deep passes, 0 deep completions, 1 interception, and 1 TD, 1 sack. We have run the ball 10 times, and converted 6 times.

3rd down 4 to 9 yards: 43 plays, 43 pass, 0 run, 43 times showing shotgun, 17 completions, 11 deep passes, 1 deep completion, 1 interception, 1 fumble, 7 sacks, 0 TD, 1 busted play scramble by Ben.

On third and over 10: Ben has thrown deep 15 times, in 22 attempts, 7 total completions, 3 deep passes completed, 1 TD, 2 Interceptions, 3 sacks, 2 fumbles

So Arians has had him throw deep 33 times on 3rd down for 4 completions, with a suspect line, and showing hardly any possibility of a run to keep the defense honest, not to mention all the times he has went open backfield.

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/messages/chrono/18501116/0/L

Steelers have definately been very, very, greedy this season and it has cost them. Whether that is Arians or Ben, who knows. Lots of times you can see Ben pass up a wide open receiver, tight end, running back that would be an easy completion to look downfield, take forever, and take the sack or throw into double/ triple coverage.

They have basically chosen to take the ball out of their playmakers hands on shorter high percentage passes, which would give them the opportunity to pick up extra yards after the catch with their legs, in exchange for the opportunity to throw the ball those extra yards with the hopes the line holds up long enough for him to throw it.

Scenario 1 - We design plays to get the ball in our playmakers hands from between 0 to 10 yards downfield and give those playmakers the shot to pick up the extra yards

Scenario 2 - We continue to look beyond 10 yards with our passing game in an attempt to pick up those extra yards through the air.

RuthlessBurgher
11-28-2009, 11:48 AM
I guarantee that if Ben threw a 4 yard dump off pattern on 3rd and 7, the board would be screaming at him, "You know we need at least 7 yards, so throw a pass that goes at least 7 yards, dumb@$$!" (or, more likely, why would the moron Arians have anyone run a 4 yard pattern on 3rd and 7???)

I have a problem with Ben ignoring open receivers underneath in order to throw into coverage deep on 1st and 2nd down, but I don't have as much of a problem with him going for broke on 3rd down. I also don't mind him throwing the ball away on early downs if pressure comes and no one is open, but on a do-or-die third down, I like that he holds the ball longer than any other QB in the league (except maybe Aaron Rodgers) in order to try and make a play.

fezziwig
11-28-2009, 12:49 PM
I'm sure there are chain moving passes that Ben could have made instead of some of those rainbows he puts up.
My best memories of Ben is when he slices and dices with his throws to our receivers and moves the ball down field in several plays.
Ben doesn't impress me with accuracy when he airs it out. If he was good at the big pass then I'm all for it but, he doesn't seem to be at times.
He should stick to his strengths with the chain moving passes and keep the defense honest with a couple of rainbows.

feltdizz
11-28-2009, 02:11 PM
Arian hater now hear this... Arians does not become a spirit and take over Ben's body on 3rd down incompletions. He als does not resign as OC when Ben does well...

Stop blaming Arians for Ben's gambles and forced passes downfield. Everyone says this is Ben's best trait and we have to live with the bad. This is bull... Ben could gamble 50% less then he does now and still be Big Ben..

He has gotten greedy and we have lost a few because of it. It happens... and I don't buy the "we win with it too" argument. All QB's besides Trent Edwards take chances and go downfield. Ben extends plays and that is what he does best... but it doesn't mean you have to go bombs away because you extended the play.

fezziwig
11-28-2009, 02:18 PM
bombs away ! haaa, I love it !

BURGH86STEEL
11-28-2009, 02:42 PM
Arian hater now hear this... Arians does not become a spirit and take over Ben's body on 3rd down incompletions. He als does not resign as OC when Ben does well...

Stop blaming Arians for Ben's gambles and forced passes downfield. Everyone says this is Ben's best trait and we have to live with the bad. This is bull... Ben could gamble 50% less then he does now and still be Big Ben..

He has gotten greedy and we have lost a few because of it. It happens... and I don't buy the "we win with it too" argument. All QB's besides Trent Edwards take chances and go downfield. Ben extends plays and that is what he does best... but it doesn't mean you have to go bombs away because you extended the play.

Well, if you listen to some, BA is responsible for the bad weather in some of the Steelers games.

BA also caused Ben's concussion. He did not design a good enough play. On top of that, he tripped Ben causing Ben to go head first. As a result, Ben received a concussion.

There is a rumor going around that BA astral projected himself into Cheifs players body and hit Ben on the head. :lol: :lol:

Leper Friend
11-28-2009, 02:45 PM
Arian hater now hear this... Arians does not become a spirit and take over Ben's body on 3rd down incompletions. He als does not resign as OC when Ben does well...

Stop blaming Arians for Ben's gambles and forced passes downfield. Everyone says this is Ben's best trait and we have to live with the bad. This is bull... Ben could gamble 50% less then he does now and still be Big Ben..

He has gotten greedy and we have lost a few because of it. It happens... and I don't buy the "we win with it too" argument. All QB's besides Trent Edwards take chances and go downfield. Ben extends plays and that is what he does best... but it doesn't mean you have to go bombs away because you extended the play.It has nothing to do with Ben being greedy. The point is the inherent flaw in the play calling and system in general.What you see as "greedy" I see a QB trying to make a play in a situation where it's an obvious passing down and the defense knows it. Obvious because regardless of the distance , we present almost no threat in the running game , essentially handcuffing the passing game as well.

grotonsteel
11-28-2009, 03:02 PM
I guarantee that if Ben threw a 4 yard dump off pattern on 3rd and 7, the board would be screaming at him, "You know we need at least 7 yards, so throw a pass that goes at least 7 yards, dumb@$$!" (or, more likely, why would the moron Arians have anyone run a 4 yard pattern on 3rd and 7???)

I have a problem with Ben ignoring open receivers underneath in order to throw into coverage deep on 1st and 2nd down, but I don't have as much of a problem with him going for broke on 3rd down. I also don't mind him throwing the ball away on early downs if pressure comes and no one is open, but on a do-or-die third down, I like that he holds the ball longer than any other QB in the league (except maybe Aaron Rodgers) in order to try and make a play.


:Clap :Clap :Clap :Clap

Very well said..

skyhawk
11-28-2009, 03:28 PM
I guarantee that if Ben threw a 4 yard dump off pattern on 3rd and 7, the board would be screaming at him, "You know we need at least 7 yards, so throw a pass that goes at least 7 yards, dumb@$$!" (or, more likely, why would the moron Arians have anyone run a 4 yard pattern on 3rd and 7???)

I have a problem with Ben ignoring open receivers underneath in order to throw into coverage deep on 1st and 2nd down, but I don't have as much of a problem with him going for broke on 3rd down. I also don't mind him throwing the ball away on early downs if pressure comes and no one is open, but on a do-or-die third down, I like that he holds the ball longer than any other QB in the league (except maybe Aaron Rodgers) in order to try and make a play.

I agree.

But this team is now not a very good one with Ben out.

NorthCoast
11-28-2009, 03:54 PM
I guarantee that if Ben threw a 4 yard dump off pattern on 3rd and 7, the board would be screaming at him, "You know we need at least 7 yards, so throw a pass that goes at least 7 yards, dumb@$$!" (or, more likely, why would the moron Arians have anyone run a 4 yard pattern on 3rd and 7???)

I have a problem with Ben ignoring open receivers underneath in order to throw into coverage deep on 1st and 2nd down, but I don't have as much of a problem with him going for broke on 3rd down. I also don't mind him throwing the ball away on early downs if pressure comes and no one is open, but on a do-or-die third down, I like that he holds the ball longer than any other QB in the league (except maybe Aaron Rodgers) in order to try and make a play.

I agree.

But this team is now not a very good one with Ben out.

But you are missing the point. This style of play was OK when defenses were not prepared and the big plays were there. With the pass-run ratio cockeyed teams are erring on the side of pass defense. Since the Cinci game, teams have been playing Ben with two deep. There have not been a lot of wide open long balls this year because of this. Plus, the extended play has not resulted in W's like last season. Rather than being stubborn about it maybe Ben just needs to take what the defenses are giving him. This is no different than poker. If a player only raises when he as a great hand, don't you think his opponents would figured this out?

And didn't Hines hint at the suspect playcalling earlier this week? Tells me the players have not been happy either.

feltdizz
11-28-2009, 04:05 PM
Arian hater now hear this... Arians does not become a spirit and take over Ben's body on 3rd down incompletions. He als does not resign as OC when Ben does well...

Stop blaming Arians for Ben's gambles and forced passes downfield. Everyone says this is Ben's best trait and we have to live with the bad. This is bull... Ben could gamble 50% less then he does now and still be Big Ben..

He has gotten greedy and we have lost a few because of it. It happens... and I don't buy the "we win with it too" argument. All QB's besides Trent Edwards take chances and go downfield. Ben extends plays and that is what he does best... but it doesn't mean you have to go bombs away because you extended the play.It has nothing to do with Ben being greedy. The point is the inherent flaw in the play calling and system in general.What you see as "greedy" I see a QB trying to make a play in a situation where it's an obvious passing down and the defense knows it. Obvious because regardless of the distance , we present almost no threat in the running game , essentially handcuffing the passing game as well.

3rd and 4 is not an obvious passing play.. Now shotgun makes it obviously a passing play but does not warrant a 15 to 20 yard pass into double coverage.

Now last game we had over 500 yard offense... What exactly is handcuffed? Mendenhall gets 8 yards on first down in OT... How and what was hancuffed?

You just pulled this excuse out your backside.... Now we can all question the plays called but I rarely see go routes by every WR and RB... Sometimes we do run long routes but most of the time we see Ben ignore the underneath to force long passes or take a sack trying to make the play called into a sandlot deep route....

Blame the WR's for not getting separation but you cannot blame Arians when our O is putting up huge stats but lose games in the redzone or because of the 45 sacks Ben takes every year... and only half are on the OL. Ben's words not mine.... When Ben has 6 sacks and pulls out the
miracle win it's lovely and he gets the glory but when we lose we see why some
of our games are closer then they need to be.

BURGH86STEEL
11-28-2009, 04:20 PM
I guarantee that if Ben threw a 4 yard dump off pattern on 3rd and 7, the board would be screaming at him, "You know we need at least 7 yards, so throw a pass that goes at least 7 yards, dumb@$$!" (or, more likely, why would the moron Arians have anyone run a 4 yard pattern on 3rd and 7???)

I have a problem with Ben ignoring open receivers underneath in order to throw into coverage deep on 1st and 2nd down, but I don't have as much of a problem with him going for broke on 3rd down. I also don't mind him throwing the ball away on early downs if pressure comes and no one is open, but on a do-or-die third down, I like that he holds the ball longer than any other QB in the league (except maybe Aaron Rodgers) in order to try and make a play.

I agree.

But this team is now not a very good one with Ben out.

But you are missing the point. This style of play was OK when defenses were not prepared and the big plays were there. With the pass-run ratio cockeyed teams are erring on the side of pass defense. Since the Cinci game, teams have been playing Ben with two deep. There have not been a lot of wide open long balls this year because of this. Plus, the extended play has not resulted in W's like last season. Rather than being stubborn about it maybe Ben just needs to take what the defenses are giving him. This is no different than poker. If a player only raises when he as a great hand, don't you think his opponents would figured this out?

And didn't Hines hint at the suspect playcalling earlier this week? Tells me the players have not been happy either.

I don't believe teams are simply playing 2 deep against the offense. I think they are mixing it up. Sometimes they blitz, they play man or zone, and so on. If I had to guess, I say defenses are blitzing more now. They know Ben likes to hold onto that football. It is their best chance to get to him. Get to the QB and the offense is not the same.

I think there have been deep pass opportunities in every game. The execution has not been consistent in that area. I think there are times that Ben can take what defenses give. Times when RB's appear to be open in the flat.

The pass run ratio is 57% to 43%. I am sure the Steelers would like to improve and get closer to a balanced attack. There are a lot of things that factor into those ratios. The inconsistency from the run game is one of those factors.

feltdizz
11-28-2009, 04:27 PM
I guarantee that if Ben threw a 4 yard dump off pattern on 3rd and 7, the board would be screaming at him, "You know we need at least 7 yards, so throw a pass that goes at least 7 yards, dumb@$$!" (or, more likely, why would the moron Arians have anyone run a 4 yard pattern on 3rd and 7???)

I have a problem with Ben ignoring open receivers underneath in order to throw into coverage deep on 1st and 2nd down, but I don't have as much of a problem with him going for broke on 3rd down. I also don't mind him throwing the ball away on early downs if pressure comes and no one is open, but on a do-or-die third down, I like that he holds the ball longer than any other QB in the league (except maybe Aaron Rodgers) in order to try and make a play.

sorry but this makes zero sense.... If Ben checks down on 3rd and 7 for 4 yard no one gets upset at Arians... Now if the WR cuts off his route short then we blame the WR...
if the RB slips or the TE has room to run and doesn't get the 1st we blame him too...

Now I agree... I love when Ben holds onto the ball on 3rd down LATE in a game or the other 5 times he did it this year... But my friend, I really think fans tend to overestimate the success rate of Ben's sandlot 3rd down style of late... For every Jaguars heroic throw with guys hanging off of him we have also watched 12 other times when Ben has walked off the field
shaking his head....

I love when Ben pulls a miracle but fans need a reality check...it's no different then the FWP homerun... We saw it a few times and were happy with fwp dancing because we just knew he would surely do it again....but as we all know 75% of our 3rd downs are basic plays that need to be run like the play is called and as of late teams have stepped back and invited Ben to go underneath...

Leper Friend
11-28-2009, 04:28 PM
Arian hater now hear this... Arians does not become a spirit and take over Ben's body on 3rd down incompletions. He als does not resign as OC when Ben does well...

Stop blaming Arians for Ben's gambles and forced passes downfield. Everyone says this is Ben's best trait and we have to live with the bad. This is bull... Ben could gamble 50% less then he does now and still be Big Ben..

He has gotten greedy and we have lost a few because of it. It happens... and I don't buy the "we win with it too" argument. All QB's besides Trent Edwards take chances and go downfield. Ben extends plays and that is what he does best... but it doesn't mean you have to go bombs away because you extended the play.It has nothing to do with Ben being greedy. The point is the inherent flaw in the play calling and system in general.What you see as "greedy" I see a QB trying to make a play in a situation where it's an obvious passing down and the defense knows it. Obvious because regardless of the distance , we present almost no threat in the running game , essentially handcuffing the passing game as well.

3rd and 4 is not an obvious passing play.. Now shotgun makes it obviously a passing play but does not warrant a 15 to 20 yard pass into double coverage.

Now last game we had over 500 yard offense... What exactly is handcuffed? Mendenhall gets 8 yards on first down in OT... How and what was hancuffed?

You just pulled this excuse out your backside.... Now we can all question the plays called but I rarely see go routes by every WR and RB... Sometimes we do run long routes but most of the time we see Ben ignore the underneath to force long passes or take a sack trying to make the play called into a sandlot deep route....

Blame the WR's for not getting separation but you cannot blame Arians when our O is putting up huge stats but lose games in the redzone or because of the 45 sacks Ben takes every year... and only half are on the OL. Ben's words not mine.... When Ben has 6 sacks and pulls out the
miracle win it's lovely and he gets the glory but when we lose we see why some
of our games are closer then they need to be.You missed the point entirely. It is an obvious passing down because they almost always pass in that situation.It shouldn't be obvious but it is , that's the flaw.

And who cares about 500 yards on offense ? Results matter,not pretty stats. You answered youself - Mendy got 8 yards on 1st down. He was getting big chunks all game. Why not run on 2nd 3 ? And when we do run how about running Mendy downhill like he's been doing all day. Not a friggin toss to Moore. The play calls were garbage.

Leper Friend
11-28-2009, 04:31 PM
[The pass run ratio is 57% to 43%. I am sure the Steelers would like to improve and get closer to a balanced attack. There are a lot of things that factor into those ratios. The inconsistency from the run game is one of those factors.Mendenhall was 2nd in the NFL in ypc going into last week with players over 100 carries. Build on that.

BURGH86STEEL
11-28-2009, 04:54 PM
[The pass run ratio is 57% to 43%. I am sure the Steelers would like to improve and get closer to a balanced attack. There are a lot of things that factor into those ratios. The inconsistency from the run game is one of those factors.Mendenhall was 2nd in the NFL in ypc going into last week with players over 100 carries. Build on that.

It is easy to look at YPC and say the run game is consistent. That has not been the case from series to series or game to game.

Leper Friend
11-28-2009, 05:02 PM
[The pass run ratio is 57% to 43%. I am sure the Steelers would like to improve and get closer to a balanced attack. There are a lot of things that factor into those ratios. The inconsistency from the run game is one of those factors.Mendenhall was 2nd in the NFL in ypc going into last week with players over 100 carries. Build on that.

It is easy to look at YPC and say the run game is consistent. That has not been the case from series to series or game to game.I agree with that. But in certain situations , I'll never question a run call , successful or not. Mendy had 7 , 7 and 8 on his 3 carries in OT. Situational play calling is what Tomlin was preaching after the Chicago game. It was garbage with the game on the line.

feltdizz
11-28-2009, 05:46 PM
While I agree we need to feed Mend more... What was also clear in the stats is Ben is choosing to go deep a lot on 3rd down.

I don't like the shotgun on 3rd and 4 or 3rd and 2 either... However most on the board wanted Ben to have the ball in his hands more then he did years ago.

BURGH86STEEL
11-28-2009, 05:48 PM
[The pass run ratio is 57% to 43%. I am sure the Steelers would like to improve and get closer to a balanced attack. There are a lot of things that factor into those ratios. The inconsistency from the run game is one of those factors.Mendenhall was 2nd in the NFL in ypc going into last week with players over 100 carries. Build on that.

It is easy to look at YPC and say the run game is consistent. That has not been the case from series to series or game to game.I agree with that. But in certain situations , I'll never question a run call , successful or not. Mendy had 7 , 7 and 8 on his 3 carries in OT. Situational play calling is what Tomlin was preaching after the Chicago game. It was garbage with the game on the line.

There are people that will question run calls. We seen it in the Cowher era. I don't get caught up in the play calling so much. There are plays that I don't like. That goes for every game that I watch. No one will agree with the play calling 100% of the time. One thing about the Cheif's game is the called enough successful plays to put 24 or more points on the board.

Let's take a look at the OT carries in which you refer:

First down: Run: Mendenhall 7 yards
Second down: Pass 17 yards

First down: Mendenhall 7 yards
Second down: At the onset of this play, the Chiefs had 9 guys within striking distance of the run. With about 5 seconds on the play clock, one of the Cheif's safeties drop into a deep zone. Was that enough time for Ben to change the play? Call a time out?
This is the play Ben was hurt. Ben thought the Cheifs were blitzing on the play. Even though they had about 9 guys close to the line, they only sent 5. He took off running even though he had a pretty solid pocket to pass. The fear of the blitz and pressure got to Ben on that play. Ben was hurt and the play resulted in a holding penalty.

Second down 14 yards to go: Should they pass or run? Pass for 17 yards

First down: Pass incomplete (they changed up a tendency to run on first down)

Second down: Run for 8 yards

Third down: Run for -3 yards. (some fans had a huge problem with this play. Do you have a problem running a pitch on 3rd and 2?) They tried something different and did not succeed.

Fourth down: Punt

As you can see, the situational play calling was good enough to get the team to the Chiefs 35 yard line. Did they blow that last 3rd down call? Possibly. Short of them not getting the first down, I don't think anyone would be happy with the play call. If they run it up the gut and get stopped, fans complain. If they passed it and it did not work, fans complain. Fans always have the option of going in the opposite direction of the play calls after the fact. Remember, the same play calling helped the team move the ball to the Chiefs 35 yard line. Cheifs did a good job stopping the play on 3rd and 2. Where as, our defense did not put in a similar situation.

BATMAN
11-28-2009, 10:33 PM
We could blame at least three of our losses on special teams, maybe all four.

BURGH86STEEL
11-28-2009, 11:12 PM
We could blame at least three of our losses on special teams, maybe all four.

I believe they over came the special teams errors to take the lead in every game they loss. I don't believe the losses were solely the result of special teams play. The special teams contributed to the losses. Each area of the team contributed to the losses. Funny how the offense catches so much flack. The defense gave up 3 scoring drives to contribute to the losses.

BATMAN
11-28-2009, 11:47 PM
I hear you, this team just hasn't found its mojo as it seems.