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Djfan
11-17-2009, 09:03 PM
The performance of the offense is really lame, at least too often. We have an amazing offensive talent pool. It just doesn't add up.

So, I am wondering about the leadership in the offense. Who are the leaders? Who needs to step up? Is this bi-polar offense in need of new leadership?

Somehow this has to be on the front porch of BA. It that means he needs to adjust, or challenge the lockerroom leaders, create more, bring some down to Earth. I don't know, but the performance on Sunday, and in other situations at times this season make it look as if the leadership might need some adjustments.

NorthCoast
11-17-2009, 09:26 PM
You brought up a good question I was just thinking about. Who 'owns' this offense? For example, Sunday night we had the great Manning-Belichik chess match. Why was it not the Caldwell-Belichik matchup or better yet the Tom Moore-Belichik matchup?

Why is it LeBeau's defense and not Tomlin's or Farrior's? Here in Browns land, why is it "Mangini's Mess" and not Brian Daboll's offense that has only 5 TDs in the last 14 games?

We seem to apply ownership very inconsistently from team to team.

Who is in charge of the Steeler's Offense??

sd steel
11-17-2009, 09:40 PM
You brought up a good question I was just thinking about. Who 'owns' this offense? For example, Sunday night we had the great Manning-Belichik chess match. Why was it not the Caldwell-Belichik matchup or better yet the Tom Moore-Belichik matchup?

Why is it LeBeau's defense and not Tomlin's or Farrior's? Here in Browns land, why is it "Mangini's Mess" and not Brian Daboll's offense that has only 5 TDs in the last 14 games?

We seem to apply ownership very inconsistently from team to team.

Who is in charge of the Steeler's Offense??

It depends on who you want to scapegoat when we are doing poorly and who we want to praise when we are doing well. So a majority of Pittsburgh fans like to praise Ben and bash Arians, but when Kordell was hear they bashed Kordell, and praised Cowher and Gailey or whomever. It's a team that should take the blame or get the praise, but Steeler fans don't blame their favorite players, so Ben will never really have to take accountablility when we fail.

Just like in SD, the will seldom blame Rivers, and the fans here are known for loving their QB's, but Norv, and Marty, and every other coach since Coryell is to blame when they are losing.

Djfan
11-17-2009, 09:44 PM
It depends on who you want to scapegoat when we are doing poorly and who we want to praise when we are doing well. So a majority of Pittsburgh fans like to praise Ben and bash Arians, but when Kordell was hear they bashed Kordell, and praised Cowher and Gailey or whomever. It's a team that should take the blame or get the praise, but Steeler fans don't blame their favorite players, so Ben will never really have to take accountablility when we fail.

Just like in SD, the will seldom blame Rivers, and the fans here are known for loving their QB's, but Norv, and Marty, and every other coach since Coryell is to blame when they are losing.

Great points SD. This was right to the nature of what I am asking. Let's not be Chargers fans, Browns fans, Seattle fans here. Let's honestly look at it.

Ben has to bear some blame, BA does, those who drop passes, etc. But if there is a systemic issue (as I think could be argued) then it's leadership IMO.

Who are the leaders? Are they doing well?

Flasteel
11-17-2009, 10:49 PM
You brought up a good question I was just thinking about. Who 'owns' this offense? For example, Sunday night we had the great Manning-Belichik chess match. Why was it not the Caldwell-Belichik matchup or better yet the Tom Moore-Belichik matchup?

Why is it LeBeau's defense and not Tomlin's or Farrior's? Here in Browns land, why is it "Mangini's Mess" and not Brian Daboll's offense that has only 5 TDs in the last 14 games?

We seem to apply ownership very inconsistently from team to team.

Who is in charge of the Steeler's Offense??

It depends on who you want to scapegoat when we are doing poorly and who we want to praise when we are doing well. So a majority of Pittsburgh fans like to praise Ben and bash Arians, but when Kordell was hear they bashed Kordell, and praised Cowher and Gailey or whomever. It's a team that should take the blame or get the praise, but Steeler fans don't blame their favorite players, so Ben will never really have to take accountablility when we fail.

Just like in SD, the will seldom blame Rivers, and the fans here are known for loving their QB's, but Norv, and Marty, and every other coach since Coryell is to blame when they are losing.

SD, you seem to have a serious problem with this whole Arians issue and it's making you blind to some simple facts of the debate. NOBODY has said that Ben isn't, wasn't, or shouldn't be held accountable for his piss poor play on Sunday. As a matter of fact, most of us went out of our way to point it out.

When Ben sucks, he is held accountable by most. When the line sucks, when our running back sucks, and even when our defense sucks, they all receive plenty of criticism...sometimes too much. That same level of accountability is held for the guys who call the shots.

We can blame a head coach when a team commits too many penalties, plays uninspired, or is otherwise dysfunctional. We blame a GM when his draft picks and free agent signings don't pan out. We blame coordinators when their respective units fail to perform to the level of the talent or when they make obvious tactical errors.

Bruce Arians has not been the sole reason that our offense has sputtered so much. He is however, the most consistent culprit and has his fingerprints over the vast majority of offensive struggles for the past 2.5 seasons. This past Sunday we may not have enough fingers (unless someone here suffers from polydactylism) to point at those who contributed to the loss, but good ol' BA was right there in the mix once again.

This has nothing to do with potential audibles that Ben may or may not have made and you don't need to know what play is called on the field. This is about a large body of evidence collected over time which points to this guy as a liability with our offensive play-calling and game management. You can argue the play-calling all you want, but the success of the no-huddle, when it is now common knowledge who calls the plays, leaves no doubt that this team can move the ball on anyone with the talent we have...as long as they are being deployed correctly.

I'm not going to run down the tiresome laundry list of other specific contributions to his suckiness, we can all dial up a dozen other threads to find them. I'll just say that we have a significant disagreement with this particular issue. I think you, Bursghsteel, Oviedo, and quite a few others who vehemently defend BA are solid posters and seemingly good guys. But when it comes to this, you guys just don't get it.

DkBlue
11-17-2009, 11:56 PM
Maybe my imagination but Ben looked detached SUnday. He commented after the game something about the day or the weather but standing on the sidelines he did not look like himself.

He did not engage the O' Line like he usually does and did not seem fired up at all.

Did anyone else think he was throwing weird as well. He seemed way off with no energy behind his throws.

sd steel
11-18-2009, 12:16 AM
It depends on who you want to scapegoat when we are doing poorly and who we want to praise when we are doing well. So a majority of Pittsburgh fans like to praise Ben and bash Arians, but when Kordell was hear they bashed Kordell, and praised Cowher and Gailey or whomever. It's a team that should take the blame or get the praise, but Steeler fans don't blame their favorite players, so Ben will never really have to take accountablility when we fail.

Just like in SD, the will seldom blame Rivers, and the fans here are known for loving their QB's, but Norv, and Marty, and every other coach since Coryell is to blame when they are losing.

Great points SD. This was right to the nature of what I am asking. Let's not be Chargers fans, Browns fans, Seattle fans here. Let's honestly look at it.

Ben has to bear some blame, BA does, those who drop passes, etc. But if there is a systemic issue (as I think could be argued) then it's leadership IMO.

Who are the leaders? Are they doing well?

The only true leader on the offense is Hines in my opinion, Ben has made strides, but I don't see him as a natural leader, it seems forced. Arians is more of Ben's liason, and I don't see him as a leader at all, he doesn't seem to have any authority, and I think that could be a reason for his lack of upward mobility in the NFL. He is a glorified QB coach in my opinion. The Oline is still new and young so no one stands out as a leader in my opinion there as well. I think a majority of our leadership lies with our older defense and our head coach, whereas when we had Bettis and Faneca, there might have been more of a presence on the offensive side of the ball. But I'm just a fan, but that is my perception.

sd steel
11-18-2009, 12:40 AM
You brought up a good question I was just thinking about. Who 'owns' this offense? For example, Sunday night we had the great Manning-Belichik chess match. Why was it not the Caldwell-Belichik matchup or better yet the Tom Moore-Belichik matchup?

Why is it LeBeau's defense and not Tomlin's or Farrior's? Here in Browns land, why is it "Mangini's Mess" and not Brian Daboll's offense that has only 5 TDs in the last 14 games?

We seem to apply ownership very inconsistently from team to team.

Who is in charge of the Steeler's Offense??

It depends on who you want to scapegoat when we are doing poorly and who we want to praise when we are doing well. So a majority of Pittsburgh fans like to praise Ben and bash Arians, but when Kordell was hear they bashed Kordell, and praised Cowher and Gailey or whomever. It's a team that should take the blame or get the praise, but Steeler fans don't blame their favorite players, so Ben will never really have to take accountablility when we fail.

Just like in SD, the will seldom blame Rivers, and the fans here are known for loving their QB's, but Norv, and Marty, and every other coach since Coryell is to blame when they are losing.

SD, you seem to have a serious problem with this whole Arians issue and it's making you blind to some simple facts of the debate. NOBODY has said that Ben isn't, wasn't, or shouldn't be held accountable for his piss poor play on Sunday. As a matter of fact, most of us went out of our way to point it out.

When Ben sucks, he is held accountable by most. When the line sucks, when our running back sucks, and even when our defense sucks, they all receive plenty of criticism...sometimes too much. That same level of accountability is held for the guys who call the shots.

We can blame a head coach when a team commits too many penalties, plays uninspired, or is otherwise dysfunctional. We blame a GM when his draft picks and free agent signings don't pan out. We blame coordinators when their respective units fail to perform to the level of the talent or when they make obvious tactical errors.

Bruce Arians has not been the sole reason that our offense has sputtered so much. He is however, the most consistent culprit and has his fingerprints over the vast majority of offensive struggles for the past 2.5 seasons. This past Sunday we may not have enough fingers (unless someone here suffers from polydactylism) to point at those who contributed to the loss, but good ol' BA was right there in the mix once again.

This has nothing to do with potential audibles that Ben may or may not have made and you don't need to know what play is called on the field. This is about a large body of evidence collected over time which points to this guy as a liability with our offensive play-calling and game management. You can argue the play-calling all you want, but the success of the no-huddle, when it is now common knowledge who calls the plays, leaves no doubt that this team can move the ball on anyone with the talent we have...as long as they are being deployed correctly.

I'm not going to run down the tiresome laundry list of other specific contributions to his suckiness, we can all dial up a dozen other threads to find them. I'll just say that we have a significant disagreement with this particular issue. I think you, Bursghsteel, Oviedo, and quite a few others who vehemently defend BA are solid posters and seemingly good guys. But when it comes to this, you guys just don't get it.

I don't have any problem FLA, and for you to say BA is the only one who gets no blame is sort of funny. If we win or if we lose he gets blamed by you and the majority of the Steeler fans, and the press. he gets second guessed regarding every play call everytime. I'm not saying he is without blame, but if I remember correctly this offense was built by him and Ben, and Ben has said himself that he contributes to every gameplan, and BA runs what Ben is comfortable with. I'm guessing Ben has carte blanche with what is run, and if he says, lets go no huddle, they do. Also this whole thing about the no huddle, and Ben calling the plays, do you think that the plays Ben is calling weren't developed by Ben and BA, and do you think the guy talking into Ben's helmet isn't dictating what ben is calling at all?

My thing is, and I will say it again, it's a team sport, played by the football players, and execution wins games. Being that I don't know who is calling every play, or what Ben could or should be doing as far as reads and audibles I would rather blame execution because I can pin point it, but if I don't know the play, or the audibles or the reads, or who is really the man behind the curtain in every single instance, I have a hard time blaming one guy who seems to have no authority. I know that not only is Ben the guy who has to execute, but he is also a guy who helped develop the offense, who works on the game plan every week, and for all I know he could have been the guy who said he doesn't want a fullback. He makes 20+ times more money than BA, and when we fail or when we succeed he should be getting most of the accolades or most of the fallout.

Like I said I have no problem, we stunk against the Bengals and the major culprit in my opinion was Ben, and the offense as a whole, including BA. BTW I thought we agreed to disagree on this a long time ago!
:lol: :lol: :Cheers

Flasteel
11-18-2009, 12:53 AM
[quote=NorthCoast]You brought up a good question I was just thinking about. Who 'owns' this offense? For example, Sunday night we had the great Manning-Belichik chess match. Why was it not the Caldwell-Belichik matchup or better yet the Tom Moore-Belichik matchup?

Why is it LeBeau's defense and not Tomlin's or Farrior's? Here in Browns land, why is it "Mangini's Mess" and not Brian Daboll's offense that has only 5 TDs in the last 14 games?

We seem to apply ownership very inconsistently from team to team.

Who is in charge of the Steeler's Offense??

It depends on who you want to scapegoat when we are doing poorly and who we want to praise when we are doing well. So a majority of Pittsburgh fans like to praise Ben and bash Arians, but when Kordell was hear they bashed Kordell, and praised Cowher and Gailey or whomever. It's a team that should take the blame or get the praise, but Steeler fans don't blame their favorite players, so Ben will never really have to take accountablility when we fail.

Just like in SD, the will seldom blame Rivers, and the fans here are known for loving their QB's, but Norv, and Marty, and every other coach since Coryell is to blame when they are losing.

SD, you seem to have a serious problem with this whole Arians issue and it's making you blind to some simple facts of the debate. NOBODY has said that Ben isn't, wasn't, or shouldn't be held accountable for his piss poor play on Sunday. As a matter of fact, most of us went out of our way to point it out.

When Ben sucks, he is held accountable by most. When the line sucks, when our running back sucks, and even when our defense sucks, they all receive plenty of criticism...sometimes too much. That same level of accountability is held for the guys who call the shots.

We can blame a head coach when a team commits too many penalties, plays uninspired, or is otherwise dysfunctional. We blame a GM when his draft picks and free agent signings don't pan out. We blame coordinators when their respective units fail to perform to the level of the talent or when they make obvious tactical errors.

Bruce Arians has not been the sole reason that our offense has sputtered so much. He is however, the most consistent culprit and has his fingerprints over the vast majority of offensive struggles for the past 2.5 seasons. This past Sunday we may not have enough fingers (unless someone here suffers from polydactylism) to point at those who contributed to the loss, but good ol' BA was right there in the mix once again.

This has nothing to do with potential audibles that Ben may or may not have made and you don't need to know what play is called on the field. This is about a large body of evidence collected over time which points to this guy as a liability with our offensive play-calling and game management. You can argue the play-calling all you want, but the success of the no-huddle, when it is now common knowledge who calls the plays, leaves no doubt that this team can move the ball on anyone with the talent we have...as long as they are being deployed correctly.

I'm not going to run down the tiresome laundry list of other specific contributions to his suckiness, we can all dial up a dozen other threads to find them. I'll just say that we have a significant disagreement with this particular issue. I think you, Bursghsteel, Oviedo, and quite a few others who vehemently defend BA are solid posters and seemingly good guys. But when it comes to this, you guys just don't get it.

I don't have any problem FLA, and for you to say BA is the only one who gets no blame is sort of funny. If we win or if we lose he gets blamed by you and the majority of the Steeler fans, and the press. he gets second guessed regarding every play call everytime. I'm not saying he is without blame, but if I remember correctly this offense was built by him and Ben, and Ben has said himself that he contributes to every gameplan, and BA runs what Ben is comfortable with. I'm guessing Ben has carte blanche with what is run, and if he says, lets go no huddle, they do. Also this whole thing about the no huddle, and Ben calling the plays, do you think that the plays Ben is calling weren't developed by Ben and BA, and do you think the guy talking into Ben's helmet isn't dictating what ben is calling at all?

My thing is, and I will say it again, it's a team sport, played by the football players, and execution wins games. Being that I don't know who is calling every play, or what Ben could or should be doing as far as reads and audibles I would rather blame execution because I can pin point it, but if I don't know the play, or the audibles or the reads, or who is really the man behind the curtain in every single instance, I have a hard time blaming one guy who seems to have no authority. I know that not only is Ben the guy who has to execute, but he is also a guy who helped develop the offense, who works on the game plan every week, and for all I know he could have been the guy who said he doesn't want a fullback. He makes 20+ times more money than BA, and when we fail or when we succeed he should be getting most of the accolades or most of the fallout.

Like I said I have no problem, we stunk against the Bengals and the major culprit in my opinion was Ben, and the offense as a whole, including BA. BTW I thought we agreed to disagree on this a long time ago!
:lol: :lol: :Cheers[/quote:v5ud54mm]

Glad to see that we can all still debate this with civility and at the same time call each other delusional.

By the way, BA did not design the offense. When he got the job, he took the enormous playbook and along with Ben's input, pared it down. I thought this was a fantastic idea and that input is one of the reasons I believe Ben stands behind Arians so much.

But this whole mess isn't about the plays...hell, all plays are basically designed well. It's about how you use them and when you use them. Anyway, it's late and I'm sure this conversation will continue in one form or another until BA is fired. :tt2

sd steel
11-18-2009, 01:03 AM
[quote=NorthCoast]You brought up a good question I was just thinking about. Who 'owns' this offense? For example, Sunday night we had the great Manning-Belichik chess match. Why was it not the Caldwell-Belichik matchup or better yet the Tom Moore-Belichik matchup?

Why is it LeBeau's defense and not Tomlin's or Farrior's? Here in Browns land, why is it "Mangini's Mess" and not Brian Daboll's offense that has only 5 TDs in the last 14 games?

We seem to apply ownership very inconsistently from team to team.

Who is in charge of the Steeler's Offense??

It depends on who you want to scapegoat when we are doing poorly and who we want to praise when we are doing well. So a majority of Pittsburgh fans like to praise Ben and bash Arians, but when Kordell was hear they bashed Kordell, and praised Cowher and Gailey or whomever. It's a team that should take the blame or get the praise, but Steeler fans don't blame their favorite players, so Ben will never really have to take accountablility when we fail.

Just like in SD, the will seldom blame Rivers, and the fans here are known for loving their QB's, but Norv, and Marty, and every other coach since Coryell is to blame when they are losing.

SD, you seem to have a serious problem with this whole Arians issue and it's making you blind to some simple facts of the debate. NOBODY has said that Ben isn't, wasn't, or shouldn't be held accountable for his piss poor play on Sunday. As a matter of fact, most of us went out of our way to point it out.

When Ben sucks, he is held accountable by most. When the line sucks, when our running back sucks, and even when our defense sucks, they all receive plenty of criticism...sometimes too much. That same level of accountability is held for the guys who call the shots.

We can blame a head coach when a team commits too many penalties, plays uninspired, or is otherwise dysfunctional. We blame a GM when his draft picks and free agent signings don't pan out. We blame coordinators when their respective units fail to perform to the level of the talent or when they make obvious tactical errors.

Bruce Arians has not been the sole reason that our offense has sputtered so much. He is however, the most consistent culprit and has his fingerprints over the vast majority of offensive struggles for the past 2.5 seasons. This past Sunday we may not have enough fingers (unless someone here suffers from polydactylism) to point at those who contributed to the loss, but good ol' BA was right there in the mix once again.

This has nothing to do with potential audibles that Ben may or may not have made and you don't need to know what play is called on the field. This is about a large body of evidence collected over time which points to this guy as a liability with our offensive play-calling and game management. You can argue the play-calling all you want, but the success of the no-huddle, when it is now common knowledge who calls the plays, leaves no doubt that this team can move the ball on anyone with the talent we have...as long as they are being deployed correctly.

I'm not going to run down the tiresome laundry list of other specific contributions to his suckiness, we can all dial up a dozen other threads to find them. I'll just say that we have a significant disagreement with this particular issue. I think you, Bursghsteel, Oviedo, and quite a few others who vehemently defend BA are solid posters and seemingly good guys. But when it comes to this, you guys just don't get it.

I don't have any problem FLA, and for you to say BA is the only one who gets no blame is sort of funny. If we win or if we lose he gets blamed by you and the majority of the Steeler fans, and the press. he gets second guessed regarding every play call everytime. I'm not saying he is without blame, but if I remember correctly this offense was built by him and Ben, and Ben has said himself that he contributes to every gameplan, and BA runs what Ben is comfortable with. I'm guessing Ben has carte blanche with what is run, and if he says, lets go no huddle, they do. Also this whole thing about the no huddle, and Ben calling the plays, do you think that the plays Ben is calling weren't developed by Ben and BA, and do you think the guy talking into Ben's helmet isn't dictating what ben is calling at all?

My thing is, and I will say it again, it's a team sport, played by the football players, and execution wins games. Being that I don't know who is calling every play, or what Ben could or should be doing as far as reads and audibles I would rather blame execution because I can pin point it, but if I don't know the play, or the audibles or the reads, or who is really the man behind the curtain in every single instance, I have a hard time blaming one guy who seems to have no authority. I know that not only is Ben the guy who has to execute, but he is also a guy who helped develop the offense, who works on the game plan every week, and for all I know he could have been the guy who said he doesn't want a fullback. He makes 20+ times more money than BA, and when we fail or when we succeed he should be getting most of the accolades or most of the fallout.

Like I said I have no problem, we stunk against the Bengals and the major culprit in my opinion was Ben, and the offense as a whole, including BA. BTW I thought we agreed to disagree on this a long time ago!
:lol: :lol: :Cheers

Glad to see that we can all still debate this with civility and at the same time call each other delusional.

By the way, BA did not design the offense. When he got the job, he took the enormous playbook and along with Ben's input, pared it down. I thought this was a fantastic idea and that input is one of the reasons I believe Ben stands behind Arians so much.

But this whole mess isn't about the plays...hell, all plays are basically designed well. It's about how you use them and when you use them. Anyway, it's late and I'm sure this conversation will continue in one form or another until BA is fired. :tt2[/quote:39vx17xq]

You're right, it's not about plays, its about execution. :lol: