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View Full Version : Ben isn't underthrowing Wallace



stlrz d
11-15-2009, 09:14 PM
He's not throwing it SOON enough. Instead of trusting that Wallace is going to beat his man and throwing it so he can run under it, he waits until Wallace HAS beat his man and then throws it.

By then it is too late because he can't throw it far enough and with enough velocity. That means Wallace has to slow down which allows the defender to catch up.

Underthrowing is when a guy is in your range and you don't reach him. That's not what is happening with Ben. He's throwing it late because he's waiting too long.

It's no different than a deep out...if the QB throws it just as the WR makes his break the ball should get there on time and beat the coverage. If the QB waits then the DB can get there to make a play.

Before responding just think about it for a minute and you'll understand what I'm getting at.

Anyway, hopefully Ben and Wallace can get this worked out soon. If Ben can hit Wallace in stride on a 20-30 yard pass that would be deadly.

flippy
11-15-2009, 09:17 PM
Agree.

But I also don't see a big deal in underthrowing the ball either. Lots of QBs throw deep balls short and many receivers come back and catch them. And when they fight through the DB, they often draw PI penalties.

stlrz d
11-15-2009, 09:19 PM
Agree.

But I also don't see a big deal in underthrowing the ball either. Lots of QBs throw deep balls short and many receivers come back and catch them. And when they fight through the DB, they often draw PI penalties.

But usually when they do that the DB isn't looking so the WR can come back to the ball.

And usually when a ball is purposely underthrown it's still in a range that allows for some velocity on the ball.

Wolfhound45
11-15-2009, 09:22 PM
I think that you are completely wrong on this one. Ben is underthrowing his receivers and the reason is because he is not an elite QB!

:P

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vXhVGx51WYI/SJXtNPyihbI/AAAAAAAABkw/qjtUjhZUqZM/s400/y-so-srs-2.jpg

stlrz d
11-15-2009, 09:24 PM
That cat is freaking me out!

Wolfhound45
11-15-2009, 09:25 PM
That cat is freaking me out!

:Agree

Discipline of Steel
11-15-2009, 09:27 PM
That cat is freaking me out!

purrmanent resident of pet cemetary

stlrz d
11-15-2009, 09:28 PM
That cat is freaking me out!

:Agree

:lol:

Wolfhound45
11-15-2009, 09:29 PM
[quote="stlrz d":302aqt5m]That cat is freaking me out!

purrmanent resident of pet cemetary[/quote:302aqt5m]

I love animals (dogs and cats) but that one needs a one way trip to the pet cemetery. Freaky!

steelz09
11-15-2009, 09:41 PM
Ben waiting to long to throw the ball?

I would have never guessed that.

Thanks "Captain of the Obvious"

stlrz d
11-15-2009, 09:49 PM
Ben waiting to long to throw the ball?

I would have never guessed that.

Thanks "Captain of the Obvious"

Once again you've totally missed the point.

I should come to expect that by now.

Captain Lemming
11-15-2009, 10:08 PM
Ben isnt underthrowing Wallace.

I say Wallace is just running too stinkin fast.

Hines needs to sit the kid down and explain the craft that he has perfected. The art of SLOW ROUTE RUNNING. :wink:

jj28west
11-16-2009, 06:41 AM
He's not throwing it SOON enough. Instead of trusting that Wallace is going to beat his man and throwing it so he can run under it, he waits until Wallace HAS beat his man and then throws it.

By then it is too late because he can't throw it far enough and with enough velocity. That means Wallace has to slow down which allows the defender to catch up.

Underthrowing is when a guy is in your range and you don't reach him. That's not what is happening with Ben. He's throwing it late because he's waiting too long.

It's no different than a deep out...if the QB throws it just as the WR makes his break the ball should get there on time and beat the coverage. If the QB waits then the DB can get there to make a play.

Before responding just think about it for a minute and you'll understand what I'm getting at.

Anyway, hopefully Ben and Wallace can get this worked out soon. If Ben can hit Wallace in stride on a 20-30 yard pass that would be deadly.

Good point. Even with Washington & Holmes Ben would most of the time be off with the timing. Towards the second half of last year it seemed like Ben was leading Washington better and they were becoming in sync. As far as throwing to a spot like Aikmen to Irvin in the 90s with the deep out, I believe like you said that Ben a lot of times must physically see the WR being open before throwing. Sometimes you will see him throwing into a crowd down the middle but I feel it is because he did not see the defender(s).

Just imagine if he had this timing down with Sweed @ 6' 3" also. The one minor drawback is Sweed's hands of Steel.

JTP53609
11-16-2009, 09:28 AM
love big ben...but, he has one of the worst deep balls in the league. cant have everything i guess

Iron Shiek
11-16-2009, 11:13 AM
He's not throwing it SOON enough. Instead of trusting that Wallace is going to beat his man and throwing it so he can run under it, he waits until Wallace HAS beat his man and then throws it.

By then it is too late because he can't throw it far enough and with enough velocity. That means Wallace has to slow down which allows the defender to catch up.

Underthrowing is when a guy is in your range and you don't reach him. That's not what is happening with Ben. He's throwing it late because he's waiting too long.

It's no different than a deep out...if the QB throws it just as the WR makes his break the ball should get there on time and beat the coverage. If the QB waits then the DB can get there to make a play.

Before responding just think about it for a minute and you'll understand what I'm getting at.

Anyway, hopefully Ben and Wallace can get this worked out soon. If Ben can hit Wallace in stride on a 20-30 yard pass that would be deadly.


Good point man. Nothing encapsulates this better than Marsha Brady last night throwing that BOMB to Randy Moss. Defender was neck and neck the entire time with Moss and Brady tossed a 60 yard in the air throw right on the money. Moss beats his man at the last second. Have faith in your WRs Ben!

ikestops85
11-16-2009, 11:13 AM
I agree with what you are saying D. Ben has many great attributes but throwing timing routes and the deep ball are not among them. I've also said for some time that while our receivers are good at getting open they are not very good at going for the ball and taking it away from the defender.

I know I'm nit-picking but after yesterday's game I have to B&M about something.

Steeler Mafia
11-16-2009, 11:52 AM
Say what you want, if it makes you feel better. Ben holds on the ball to long. Doesn't have enought time. Can't throw it that deep. Whatever. The end result is that every time Wallace runs the deep route, the ball always falls short and never hits him in stride. Where I come from, that is called an underthown ball.

SteelAbility
11-16-2009, 12:24 PM
I agree. But the result is pretty much the same. It's apples-oranges, but they weigh the same and the weight is what matters in this case.

That being said, it's a bit of a shame because the Wallace deep threat just went into the can. IMO, the best way to use Wallace there is as a decoy to open up the middle for Santonio who can hopefully catch, then dodge, then gash for big yards.

California-Steel
11-16-2009, 03:41 PM
He's not throwing it SOON enough. Instead of trusting that Wallace is going to beat his man and throwing it so he can run under it, he waits until Wallace HAS beat his man and then throws it.

By then it is too late because he can't throw it far enough and with enough velocity. That means Wallace has to slow down which allows the defender to catch up.

Underthrowing is when a guy is in your range and you don't reach him. That's not what is happening with Ben. He's throwing it late because he's waiting too long.

It's no different than a deep out...if the QB throws it just as the WR makes his break the ball should get there on time and beat the coverage. If the QB waits then the DB can get there to make a play.

Before responding just think about it for a minute and you'll understand what I'm getting at.

Anyway, hopefully Ben and Wallace can get this worked out soon. If Ben can hit Wallace in stride on a 20-30 yard pass that would be deadly.
Yes yes yes. Even the announcers said the same thing. They said on the replay of the deep pass to Wallace that he had to try and come back for, "the ball needs to be thrown now". At that point Wallace was even with the defender. what is the old saying? "If I'm even I'm leavin".

NC Steeler Fan
11-16-2009, 03:57 PM
Underthrow?

How about the passes that he clearly overshot the receiver? I'm thinking Heath who was wide open near the sideline towards the end of the game and one or two passes over the receivers' heads in the endzone?

I thought to myself that he's over reacting for fear of an INT...he's being intimidated by the secondary...

Just my :2c

stlrz d
11-16-2009, 10:17 PM
Say what you want, if it makes you feel better. Ben holds on the ball to long. Doesn't have enought time. Can't throw it that deep. Whatever. The end result is that every time Wallace runs the deep route, the ball always falls short and never hits him in stride. Where I come from, that is called an underthown ball.

That's because he's not throwing it soon enough.

There is a difference.

Steeler Mafia
11-16-2009, 10:24 PM
If he holds on to it too long, then you would think he would know enough to put more on the ball. It is all the same. Excuses.

stlrz d
11-16-2009, 11:06 PM
If he holds on to it too long, then you would think he would know enough to put more on the ball. It is all the same. Excuses.

I'm no physicist, but I get it...why can't you?

sd steel
11-17-2009, 12:47 AM
[quote="Steeler Mafia":174ynhqf]If he holds on to it too long, then you would think he would know enough to put more on the ball. It is all the same. Excuses.

I'm no physicist, but I get it...why can't you?[/quote:174ynhqf]

I'm not really sure what you are getting at either. Ben doesn't trust his receivers enough to just let it go, he needs to see that they have a step on the DB? Is this a quiz? Please explain again so I don't have to read the whole thread again, and can you do it in big letters, like normal, it helps me to understand. :lol:

stlrz d
11-17-2009, 08:43 AM
I believe it's been explained quite thoroughly.

steelblood
11-17-2009, 09:53 AM
Hmm. I think the truth is that Ben is underthrowing Wallace because he waits too long. This is on Ben. He can improve this part of his game, and it will yield immediate dividends.

NWNewell
11-17-2009, 10:24 AM
Ben does not have the arm to hit Wallace in stride 60 yrds down field... so when he waits for Wallace to be opened before he throws, it's never going to get to him because by that time Wallace is already 30 yards down field and Ben has to get it 60 yards. But yet, that's what Ben does.... waits for him to get opened and they tries to get it deep... but alas, it always comes up short.... hence, as some say... he's underthrowing.

He's not going to be able to correct the "underthrowing" because it is unlikely that he suddenly going to gain an extra 10-20 yards on his deep balls. What needs to be corrected is "when" he throws the ball as stlr d says. If he recognizes when Wallance is going to be able to beat his man earlier and lets it go when Wallace only about 20 yards down field, then he would probably able to drop the ball to him in stride about 50 yards down field.

His "underthrowing" is not because of poor placement, it's because he's waiting too long and cant hit Wallace in stride that far down field. Only way to actually correct it is to recognize and throw earlier so that Wallace does not outrun your effective range.

SteelAbility
11-17-2009, 11:02 AM
If he holds on to it too long, then you would think he would know enough to put more on the ball. It is all the same. Excuses.

Yes, he should put more on the ball. However, the problem is that the more you have to put on the ball, the less accurate you will be. stlrz_d's point is absolutely correct. Ben is late with the throw. If the throw comes in time then it doesn't have to be thrown as far and therefore has the best chance at being accurate. When you start getting to 90+ percent of your max throwing distance, every yard has a more exaggerated effect on your accuracy.

RuthlessBurgher
11-17-2009, 11:11 AM
When they want to go deep to Wallace, I'd like them to run a deep post pattern occassionally instead of a go route seemingly every time.

Steeler Mafia
11-17-2009, 12:34 PM
It may have been explained enough, but I don't think it has been explained properly is the real problem

I don't need the physics lesson. I understand that accuracy is limited the more you try to put on the ball.

Say what you want. It doesn't matter if I believe you or not. The fact is that every time Wallace runs that deep route, and Ben throws him the ball, it comes up short. It is underthrown. If he wants to hold on to the ball that long and still hit that receiver, then he needs to put more on the ball. PERIOD. If he can't do it accurately, then stop trying to make that kind of a play. The real problem is that they keep dialing it up time and time again. I guess they are hoping for the penalty, because Ben isn't going to hit Wallace that deep. (without him coming back to the ball to make the catch) I don't believe he has the arm. If he did, then he would know, the longer you hold the ball, the more you will need to put on it to get it to where it needs to be. If you can't do it, stop doing it......unless you really believe that you can get the penalty.

SteelAbility
11-17-2009, 01:16 PM
It may have been explained enough, but I don't think it has been explained properly is the real problem

I don't need the physics lesson. I understand that accuracy is limited the more you try to put on the ball.

Say what you want. It doesn't matter if I believe you or not. The fact is that every time Wallace runs that deep route, and Ben throws him the ball, it comes up short. It is underthrown. If he wants to hold on to the ball that long and still hit that receiver, then he needs to put more on the ball. PERIOD. If he can't do it accurately, then stop trying to make that kind of a play. The real problem is that they keep dialing it up time and time again. I guess they are hoping for the penalty, because Ben isn't going to hit Wallace that deep. (without him coming back to the ball to make the catch) I don't believe he has the arm. If he did, then he would know, the longer you hold the ball, the more you will need to put on it to get it to where it needs to be. If you can't do it, stop doing it......unless you really believe that you can get the penalty.

Ok, here's how I see it. The lateness of the throw is straining the situation and reducing the likelihood of a connection. Since Ben is late with the throw he has to choose EITHER north-south distance OR east-west accuracy. That's the whole point. Once he waits beyond a certain point in time, he simply can't have both. He is choosing east-west accuracy at the expense of N-S distance. So, the passes are coming up short. If he was getting the distance on it, he'd be off to the right or left (unless he gets lucky). Then we'd be complaining about the accuracy. The solution is a more timely throw where he's not stuck in EITHER-OR but has more BOTH-AND at his disposal. Don't abandon the play. Adjust the play.

Another possible solution is the "underthrown deep ball" where the QB-WR absolutely have to be on the same page where they understand the WR will come back for it once he has driven the defender to commit to racing. This is particularly effective in one-on-one coverage.

NorthCoast
11-17-2009, 01:29 PM
Underthrow?

How about the passes that he clearly overshot the receiver? I'm thinking Heath who was wide open near the sideline towards the end of the game and one or two passes over the receivers' heads in the endzone?

I thought to myself that he's over reacting for fear of an INT...he's being intimidated by the secondary...

Just my :2c

I suspect this overthrow was a direct result of having 3 batted passes. He was trying to get it over the hands of the DL.

I agree with others that it is more a timing thing than an underthrow. Yes, the result is the same, but the correction is completely different. Ben needs to see space between a WR and the DB before it lets it go, that's why he does all the pump fakes. Cinci played a lot of man coverage (and tight) which probably had Ben off his game since it required some trust that his receiver would go up to get the ball. This is where a Sweed that can actually catch the ball would be great to throw to.

Steeler Mafia
11-17-2009, 01:50 PM
It may have been explained enough, but I don't think it has been explained properly is the real problem

I don't need the physics lesson. I understand that accuracy is limited the more you try to put on the ball.

Say what you want. It doesn't matter if I believe you or not. The fact is that every time Wallace runs that deep route, and Ben throws him the ball, it comes up short. It is underthrown. If he wants to hold on to the ball that long and still hit that receiver, then he needs to put more on the ball. PERIOD. If he can't do it accurately, then stop trying to make that kind of a play. The real problem is that they keep dialing it up time and time again. I guess they are hoping for the penalty, because Ben isn't going to hit Wallace that deep. (without him coming back to the ball to make the catch) I don't believe he has the arm. If he did, then he would know, the longer you hold the ball, the more you will need to put on it to get it to where it needs to be. If you can't do it, stop doing it......unless you really believe that you can get the penalty.

Not to sound belligerent, but apparently you do need the physics lesson. That's the whole point. The lateness of the throw is straining the situation and reducing the likelihood of a connection. Since Ben is late with the throw he has to choose EITHER north-south distance OR east-west accuracy. Once he waits beyond a certain point in time, he simply can't have both. He is choosing east-west accuracy at the expense of N-S distance. So, the passes are coming up short. The solution is a more timely throw where he's not stuck in EITHER-OR but has more BOTH-AND at his disposal.

If I go by what you are saying, neither of our arguements hold water and it is Ben's decision making that is the problem. He is the one that decides to hold on the the ball and he is also the one that will decide if he should throw that ball or not, knowing that he has held on to it for that given time. If he understands that he ran out of time and can't make that long throw now, why throw it at all, unless you are trying to get the PI call. Whether you all like it or not, he does decide to throw the ball regardless of the time he has held on to it, and it consistanly comes up short. A.K.A Underthrown. IF HE CAN'T MAKE THE THROW, DON'T THROW THE BALL. THIS IS WHAT YOU ALL ARE NOT GETTING. I don't care what is causing the problem, I am just telling you about the end result, an underthrown ball. It doesn't matter to me if he is doing it on purpose or what other conflicts get in his way. Every one of these passes that Ben has thrown, regardelss of him holding on to the ball or not, have been short of target. He can hit the rest of the passes all day long, but the bombs are not in his arsenal. The rest is just icing to make some of you sleep better at night. Is it because Wallace is too fast...maybe. Is it bacause they need to work on their timing more...maybe. Ben has been around Ward and Holmes longer and knows what he can and can't throw to them. Is it becasue he holds on the the ball too long...could be as well. There have been other times that he has had the time and it was still short armed it to Wallace. The simple fact still stands. Of THESE throws, the long bombs to Wallace, they are always short of target. Even if Wallace does manage to catch the ball, it is because he had to come back to it to make the play.

eniparadoxgma
11-18-2009, 06:54 PM
Underthrow?

How about the passes that he clearly overshot the receiver? I'm thinking Heath who was wide open near the sideline towards the end of the game and one or two passes over the receivers' heads in the endzone?

I thought to myself that he's over reacting for fear of an INT...he's being intimidated by the secondary...

Just my :2c

I was going to bring that up. IMO Ben usually underthrows (or waits too late...whichever lol) but he clearly overthrew a couple of deep balls on Sunday. Maybe he just isn't that good with long balls period?

It's another reason I thought those last few offensive plays of ours made no sense. You have time to throw under the coverage and march down the field...plus Ben was off on the deep passes...so you decide to try to air it out? I don't get it.

proudpittsburgher
11-19-2009, 10:37 AM
I brought this up in a thread earlier, but does anyone buy into my theory that ben doesn't get the ball out early enough to wallace because wallace isn't the primary reciever on the route, so by the time ben gets around to him in his progressions, Wallace is too far down the field, and too fast to get the ball ahead of. Maybe if the play was designed for wallace in the first place, he would be the first read, and Ben might be able to get it to him sooner and hit him in stride? Just my $.02.

MeetJoeGreene
11-19-2009, 12:15 PM
I brought this up in a thread earlier, but does anyone buy into my theory that ben doesn't get the ball out early enough to wallace because wallace isn't the primary reciever on the route, so by the time ben gets around to him in his progressions, Wallace is too far down the field, and too fast to get the ball ahead of. Maybe if the play was designed for wallace in the first place, he would be the first read, and Ben might be able to get it to him sooner and hit him in stride? Just my $.02.


That could be. Another thought came to my mind. Wallace didn't come into camp as the #3 (that was Sweed). So Ben may not have worked with him that much in camp to really know him. I have a feeling that NEXT year - after they go through an off-season and camp with Ben and Wallace gettting more reps, that combination will be DEVASTATING>

Captain Lemming
11-21-2009, 10:39 PM
He's not throwing it SOON enough. Instead of trusting that Wallace is going to beat his man and throwing it so he can run under it, he waits until Wallace HAS beat his man and then throws it.

By then it is too late because he can't throw it far enough and with enough velocity. That means Wallace has to slow down which allows the defender to catch up.

Underthrowing is when a guy is in your range and you don't reach him. That's not what is happening with Ben. He's throwing it late because he's waiting too long.

It's no different than a deep out...if the QB throws it just as the WR makes his break the ball should get there on time and beat the coverage. If the QB waits then the DB can get there to make a play.

Before responding just think about it for a minute and you'll understand what I'm getting at.

Anyway, hopefully Ben and Wallace can get this worked out soon. If Ben can hit Wallace in stride on a 20-30 yard pass that would be deadly.


I understand what you are saying but it is all semantics dude.

I cannot throw a 60 yard pass period.
If I attempt to do so I will UNDERTHROW my receiver.
Sure, If I throw earlier (much earlier) I can complete the pass.
The fact remains that if I attempt to hit a receiver 60 yards deep I will UNDERTHROW him

What you are saying is that Ben needs to throw SOONER to correct the problem. Nobody disagrees.
But to say it is incorrect to say Ben is underthrowing Wallace it simply wrong. He most certainly IS underthrowing Wallace.

stlrz d
11-22-2009, 01:23 AM
Forget it...I give up.


Glad some folks understand the difference.