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NorthCoast
10-28-2009, 08:40 AM
I guess I missed it, but was there ever an explanation why Logan was moved off punt return duties? He was doing both in preseason, now only kick returns. Did Tomlin say why?

calmkiller
10-28-2009, 09:00 AM
He....has been returning punts all year....

They do put Moore in when we are pinned back at time, for ball security.

SidSmythe
10-28-2009, 09:15 AM
He....has been returning punts all year....

They do put Moore in when we are pinned back at time, for ball security.

:Agree

JTP53609
10-28-2009, 09:38 AM
yea he has been out there from what i see, other than of course when we are inside the 10, like said up top

flippy
10-28-2009, 10:30 AM
He hasn't been a great PR.

SidSmythe
10-28-2009, 12:47 PM
Here are the STATS

LOGAN: 14 for 105 yards - 6 fair catches - 7.5 average - 20 Long
MOORE: 2 for 1 yard - 3 fair catches - 0.5 average 1 Long

Plus Logan has let a few bounce past him ... so he's the man, except when we need Moore to catch the ball inside the 10

NorthCoast
10-28-2009, 07:44 PM
He....has been returning punts all year....

They do put Moore in when we are pinned back at time, for ball security.

Moore in there on deep punts is what I was referring to...guess they still don't completely trust Logan.

I was actually hoping for a little bit more from Logan than we are getting but I won't complain too much because he is lightyears better than what we had last year.

RuthlessBurgher
10-28-2009, 08:21 PM
Using Moore to catch punts inside his own 10 yard line instead of Logan is akin to using Moore late in the game instead of Mendenhall. Both Logan and Mendenhall are more explosive options than Moore, but Moore is the safer, surehanded option in those specific situations.

Mel Blount's G
10-28-2009, 08:32 PM
He....has been returning punts all year....

They do put Moore in when we are pinned back at time, for ball security.

Moore in there on deep punts is what I was referring to...guess they still don't completely trust Logan.

I was actually hoping for a little bit more from Logan than we are getting but I won't complain too much because he is lightyears better than what we had last year.
Don't give up on Logan. He seems close to breaking ever single kick off. I'd seriously consider putting up money that he'll get to the house before we've played 10-12 games this year. I would not be the least bit surprised if he has double figures in points before years regular season's end. I'm hoping it comes at a crucial time when he saves or revives a game for us.

fezziwig
10-28-2009, 09:14 PM
Where doe s Logan rate or compare to the other NFL returners ?

Does anyone feel he isn't doing a good job ?

I feel he is good, better than what we have had and on the verge of busting loose for a TD.

Only if he had Jeff Reed kicking off to him, he would do a lot better.

Never know, maybe he will have Reed kicking off to him next season.

NorthCoast
10-28-2009, 09:25 PM
Punt Returns Kick Returns
Rk Tm Age G GS Ret Yds TD Lng Y/R Rt Yds TD Lng Y/Rt APYd
1 Josh Cribbs CLE 26 7 18 295 1 67 16.4 25 723 1 98 28.9 1158
2 Jacoby Jones HOU 25 7 25 260 0 62 10.4 14 415 1 95 29.6 810
3 Stefan Logan PIT 28 7 14 105 0 20 7.5 24 636 0 56 26.5 741
4 Danny Amendola STL 24 5 8 65 0 14 8.1 29 705 0 58 24.3 885
5 Darren Sproles SDG 26 6 8 120 1 77 15.0 27 696 0 66 25.8 1206
6 Clifton Smith TAM 24 6 13 115 0 20 8.8 17 475 0 38 27.9 601
7 Eric Weems ATL 24 6 10 78 0 20 7.8 16 450 0 62 28.1 561
8 Andre Caldwell CIN 24 7 24 466 0 39 19.4 734
9 Jamaal Charles KAN 23 6 23 557 0 53 24.2 793
10 Percy Harvin MIN 21 7 23 685 2 101 29.8 1007

Looks like he has been doing better than I thought...

stlrz d
10-28-2009, 09:27 PM
Where doe s Logan rate or compare to the other NFL returners ?

Does anyone feel he isn't doing a good job ?

I feel he is good, better than what we have had and on the verge of busting loose for a TD.

Only if he had Jeff Reed kicking off to him, he would do a lot better.

Never know, maybe he will have Reed kicking off to him next season.

He is 13th among returners with at least 6 returns. I chose 6 because every team has played at least 6 games now so that's a minimum of 1 per game (some have played 7 now though)...it's not perfect, but it's something.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats? ... onType=REG (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=KICK_RETURNS&season=2009&seasonType=REG)

Edit: Mine is avg/ret

fezziwig
10-29-2009, 12:15 AM
thanks for the info NC

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
10-29-2009, 07:39 AM
I honestly thought he would have broke one by now. I wouldn't mind seeing Wallace set up deep on KO for some rotation. Add a spark and maybe some competition. Competition always brings out the best. Especially when you are only on the team as a returner. Roster spots are critical and if there is any more effort in Logan's pocket...That should spend it.

RuthlessBurgher
10-29-2009, 09:51 AM
Putting Logan and Wallace back deep together as dual kick return threats would be interesting...

fezziwig
10-29-2009, 10:04 AM
putting logan and wallace doing a reverse in the backfield would be nice too

papillon
10-29-2009, 10:33 AM
Putting Logan on the PS would be my suggestion. I didn't like keeping a player exclusively to return kicks and punts when the Steelers have playmakers on their team that can do the job. If you get one or two returns for TDs during a year it's been a pretty good year. I'd rather have an every down player available rather than Logan.

He seems to be luxury rather than a necessity. I just haven't seen enough ROI for keeping him on the active roster, just my opinion.

Pappy

ikestops85
10-29-2009, 10:55 AM
Putting Logan on the PS would be my suggestion. I didn't like keeping a player exclusively to return kicks and punts when the Steelers have playmakers on their team that can do the job. If you get one or two returns for TDs during a year it's been a pretty good year. I'd rather have an every down player available rather than Logan.

He seems to be luxury rather than a necessity. I just haven't seen enough ROI for keeping him on the active roster, just my opinion.

Pappy

I'm of the opposite opinion Pap. I think the guy is dangerous enough that the opponents special teams has to worry about him and try to kick away from him. I'd also like to see him involved in the offense. I think he could be explosive running that WR screen we use so often.

The thing that bothers me more is we seem to have taken a step backwards on our special teams blocking. We are constantly letting 2 or 3 of the defenders run free down the field on punts. On kickoff returns there are very few times that I have seen a lane for him to run through. Our guys need to be a little more enthusiastic blocking for Logan, like the stains are for Cribbs, and then I think you will see some great returns.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
10-29-2009, 11:26 AM
I have always been one who likes the "personal protector" for the PR guy. Whether it is doing your homework and figuring out which gunner you can single up on or pulling a guy with his hand on the ground to give the PR man a TE/FB to take first man free...I like this concept. You don't see it much in this league anymore. Gunners usually get free anyway and a player standing in front of the returner gives him a quick option and an obstacle for another free player. You don't see it much because communication is difficult if you need to run a "fire" or "peter" call. (That's when the ball is short and you need to clear your teammates away from it.) Good coaching could limit the risk but a PR for a big play or TD really can change a game.

The special teams really is our weak area right now. I would love to see them try this to help the PR. Logan & Wallace deep should give the ST coach for the opposition some extra work during the week.

Cover teams needs help. My first decision would be to make Ratliff inactive gameday if all the CBs are healthy. Burnett is far more aggressive on special teams. Give Lewis a shot. There is nobody who could tell me that Burnett & Lewis active to play special teams wouldn't be a better move than having Ratliff active to play nickel & special teams. I don't think we would give anything up in the secondary with Ratliff inactive. Our special teams need help and I believe Lewis & Burnett active are the answer. We should get a taste in Denver. I believe Clark will be inactive and in Pittsburgh & we should see Burnett & Lewis actice for the game. Burnett looked good last week.

The other thing I would do is beat Reed sensless. Reed...When you are the last guy standing between a KR & the goaline...You have the Steelers defense on your side...You mug the returner like you want him to have your children and hold on to his facemask. Take the penalty...Don't try to hurt the guy...Get your defense on the field and make them earn it. That should have been taught to you in pee-wee...Kicker. I guess you only think you are a "tough guy" off the field. Weak attempt Reed...Weak!

RuthlessBurgher
10-29-2009, 11:59 AM
Putting Logan on the PS would be my suggestion. I didn't like keeping a player exclusively to return kicks and punts when the Steelers have playmakers on their team that can do the job. If you get one or two returns for TDs during a year it's been a pretty good year. I'd rather have an every down player available rather than Logan.

He seems to be luxury rather than a necessity. I just haven't seen enough ROI for keeping him on the active roster, just my opinion.

Pappy

Among kick returners with double-digit returns, Logan's average of 26.5 yards is 8th in the league. Among punt returners with double digit returns, Logan's average of 7.5 yards is 10th in the league. After having a bottom of the barrel return game, we are now above average, which more than justifies his roster spot. And judging by the fact that he has 2 kick returns over 40 yards, he appears to be on the verge of breaking one.

If you tried to move him to the practice squad, he'd be snatched up, because there are plenty of teams hungry for a potentially explosive young returner (remember when we were so desperate that we actually traded a future draft picks...which we never seem to do...for a washed-up Allen Rossum?). Who would you suggest elevating from the practice squad that would contribute more than Logan does? Bad idea, man.

RuthlessBurgher
10-29-2009, 12:13 PM
I have always been one who likes the "personal protector" for the PR guy. Whether it is doing your homework and figuring out which gunner you can single up on or pulling a guy with his hand on the ground to give the PR man a TE/FB to take first man free...I like this concept. You don't see it much in this league anymore. Gunners usually get free anyway and a player standing in front of the returner gives him a quick option and an obstacle for another free player. You don't see it much because communication is difficult if you need to run a "fire" or "peter" call. (That's when the ball is short and you need to clear your teammates away from it.) Good coaching could limit the risk but a PR for a big play or TD really can change a game.

The special teams really is our weak area right now. I would love to see them try this to help the PR. Logan & Wallace deep should give the ST coach for the opposition some extra work during the week.

Cover teams needs help. My first decision would be to make Ratliff inactive gameday if all the CBs are healthy. Burnett is far more aggressive on special teams. Give Lewis a shot. There is nobody who could tell me that Burnett & Lewis active to play special teams wouldn't be a better move than having Ratliff active to play nickel & special teams. I don't think we would give anything up in the secondary with Ratliff inactive. Our special teams need help and I believe Lewis & Burnett active are the answer. We should get a taste in Denver. I believe Clark will be inactive and in Pittsburgh & we should see Burnett & Lewis actice for the game. Burnett looked good last week.

The other thing I would do is beat Reed sensless. Reed...When you are the last guy standing between a KR & the goaline...You have the Steelers defense on your side...You mug the returner like you want him to have your children and hold on to his facemask. Take the penalty...Don't try to hurt the guy...Get your defense on the field and make them earn it. That should have been taught to you in pee-wee...Kicker. I guess you only think you are a "tough guy" off the field. Weak attempt Reed...Weak!

I agree with the idea of having both Lewis and Burnett active instead of Ratliff and Burnett active. Granted, for the Broncos game, they will likely have Lewis, Burnett, and Ratliff active since Clark will likely be in Pittsburgh instead of Denver (with Troy, Carter, and Mundy as your 3 safeties in that game, it is important to have both Townsend and Ratliff with some safety experience available in case we get a rash of injuries at safety in that game). But after the Denver game, I agree that we will get more special teams contributions from Lewis and Burnett, and I don't think either of them could be as bad in the regular defense as Ratliff has looked out there at times.

stlrz d
10-29-2009, 12:50 PM
I'm a fan of the personal protector too.

aggiebones
10-29-2009, 12:53 PM
I think judging return guys can be tricky. Some guys get a return or 2 for TDs early and some guys get them late. I think its a better judge to throw out the top 2 and maybe the bottom 2 and see who does more on a regular basis. A guy busting one against a crap team can skew his average alot when in reality he's not as good as another guy. Not sure what this would look like for Mr. Logan, but I think he's an asset.
For Pap, who do you think we need that could replace Logan on the squad. For instance, who on the practice squad would get more than 5-8 plays a game?
In reverse of your thought, I'd like to keep Logan returning and as he gets more familar, he'll get better hopefully, but also I think mixing him in on the offense. He is small and invisible in the backfield. He could give Sproles like benefits if given some looks. He's on the roster, might as well get more value out of his quickness. Maybe 2 offensive touches per game.

ikestops85
10-29-2009, 12:55 PM
I'm a fan of the personal protector too.

Personally, I'm a fan of cat woman and wishes she were my personal protector. :Boobs

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa297/SHADYSSUP/SEXY%20WOMEN/halle-berry-cat-woman.jpg

stlrz d
10-29-2009, 12:59 PM
Wonder how Logan would do on that old "flip out/pitch out" play we used to run to Fred McAfee with such success?

Man I loved that play and will continue to bring it up until it finds it's way back in the play book!

Think about it...Mendy and Logan in the same backfield...fake the hand off to Mendy one way and pitch it out to Logan the other way. *drooling*

papillon
10-29-2009, 01:26 PM
Putting Logan on the PS would be my suggestion. I didn't like keeping a player exclusively to return kicks and punts when the Steelers have playmakers on their team that can do the job. If you get one or two returns for TDs during a year it's been a pretty good year. I'd rather have an every down player available rather than Logan.

He seems to be luxury rather than a necessity. I just haven't seen enough ROI for keeping him on the active roster, just my opinion.

Pappy

Among kick returners with double-digit returns, Logan's average of 26.5 yards is 8th in the league. Among punt returners with double digit returns, Logan's average of 7.5 yards is 10th in the league. After having a bottom of the barrel return game, we are now above average, which more than justifies his roster spot. And judging by the fact that he has 2 kick returns over 40 yards, he appears to be on the verge of breaking one.

If you tried to move him to the practice squad, he'd be snatched up, because there are plenty of teams hungry for a potentially explosive young returner (remember when we were so desperate that we actually traded a future draft picks...which we never seem to do...for a washed-up Allen Rossum?). Who would you suggest elevating from the practice squad that would contribute more than Logan does? Bad idea, man.

Yea, moving him to PS now is a bad idea. The worse idea was taking up a roster spot with him initially. I'd rather have a project lineman, linebacker, CB, safety, RB, or TE in place of a guy who plays 5 or 6 plays a game. I hate having a long snapper taking up a spot. Teach the third TE how to long snap and be done with it and keep an every down player. If the third TE gets hurt then you go and grab a long snapper that isn't employed by the NFL. It's a waste of a spot to me. The Steelers were unprepared for the LS to get hurt last year (just like every other team in the NFL).

The game is too violent and injuries accrue over the course of a year. The team with the most healthy bodies will do well. Logan doesn't bring anything to the table that Mendenhall, Parker and Moore can't do from an offensive standpoint and Holmes and Burnett can handle with KOs and punts. But, but, but, Holmes is our starting WR, so what, he's a football player. Worry about replacing him once he's hurt.

It's a long haul and having depth is more important than having a guy that "might" break a big one, IMHO. He was returning KOs and punts against guys who are now unemployed by the NFL and that's why he looked good.

Pappy

phillyesq
10-29-2009, 01:57 PM
I think Logan has done a very nice job so far. He hasn't broken a return yet, but he seems to always present the threat of doing so. Also, he consistently gives the Steelers good field position, especially on KOs.

I like the idea of putting Wallace deep with Logan here and there, mostly because I think that they could execute the fake reverse on the KO quite well, given the respect that Wallace commands.

I wouldn't mind seeing Logan used for a WR screen or something similar. I remember a few weeks ago, he got a few snaps at WR, and I seem to remember the defense screaming "screen" and watching him, with the Steelers running another play. He could be effective on a screen, or just as effective as a diversion. Maybe the Steelers will implement some of this during the bye.

Mel Blount's G
10-29-2009, 02:21 PM
However, Wallace now has serious value and importance to us as our #3 receiver and a legitimate/potent deep threat therefore his risk of injury on special teams is more significant. But I agree with the trio of ideas; that Wallace could spark some healthy competition with Logan, the image of the 2 of them lined up for ko's is exciting and I too would like to see Arians use his imagination and incorporate Logan into the offensive somehow, someway. At the very least it would draw some defenders attention and throw them something not seen on film that could distract them, even if Logan didn't touch the ball.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
10-29-2009, 02:35 PM
I would like to see Logan get a couple of touches or plays on O a game. I sure it could be incorporated into the game plan. Not between the tackles...But a reverse or screen. I think I saw him on only 2 plays of offense all year. He has one more play than Legursky at FB. I guess that is something...

papillon
10-29-2009, 03:15 PM
I think judging return guys can be tricky. Some guys get a return or 2 for TDs early and some guys get them late. I think its a better judge to throw out the top 2 and maybe the bottom 2 and see who does more on a regular basis. A guy busting one against a crap team can skew his average alot when in reality he's not as good as another guy. Not sure what this would look like for Mr. Logan, but I think he's an asset.
For Pap, who do you think we need that could replace Logan on the squad. For instance, who on the practice squad would get more than 5-8 plays a game?
In reverse of your thought, I'd like to keep Logan returning and as he gets more familar, he'll get better hopefully, but also I think mixing him in on the offense. He is small and invisible in the backfield. He could give Sproles like benefits if given some looks. He's on the roster, might as well get more value out of his quickness. Maybe 2 offensive touches per game.

Probably nobody and since he's on the active roster moving him down to PS now would be of no benefit. I'm not a fan of specialty players taking roster spots. I know all the teams do it and it's the norm; I just don't like it. The season is long and arduous and having bodies that can play every down is a better option, IMO.

Using Logan in the offense is a waste of time, IMO, the Steelers have players (Mendenhall, Parker, Moore, Holmes, Wallace) that can do anything he can add to the offense, only better. I don't see how using Logan makes the offense better than using the guys listed.

I'm still surprised that no enterprising soccer player has ever taken the time to learn how to punt a football. I wonder how much a kicker that can kickoff, punt and kick field goals would be worth in the NFL? One player doing two jobs and freeing a roster spot.

How about a backup TE and long snapper? I just don't see the infatuation with the specialist or maybe, I'm just too obtuse to see the obvious.

Pappy

RuthlessBurgher
10-29-2009, 03:22 PM
You could probably find someone who is a decent punter and a decent kicker. You could probably find someone who is a decent tight end and a decent longsnapper. But this is the NFL. The best in the world play here. The elite of the elite. There are only 32 starting kicker jobs in this league, and they should go to the 32 best kickers in the world, not some guy who is merely an adequate kicker who can also punt reasonably well. Same with the 32 best punters and longsnappers. I'd rather a guy who is the best possible at his particular job than a guy who is a jack of all trades but master of none.

Mel Blount's G
10-29-2009, 03:45 PM
I'm still surprised that no enterprising soccer player has ever taken the time to learn how to punt a football.
I realize that it's not quite soocer :lol: but several Austrailian rules Football players have been succesful punters in the NFL. I remember former ARF'er Darren Bennett being an incredible weapon for the Chargers as a punter. Not only that but he was not afraid to bring a returner down hard if needed.


How about a backup TE and long snapper? I just don't see the infatuation with the specialist or maybe, I'm just too obtuse to see the obvious.
http://www.listosaurusrex.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/obtuse.PNG
Paps: I see your point but the way I see it is that if by having a specialist we significantly increase our chances of winning a game, or often it's more like, we decrease our chances of losing a game, then it's worth the roster spot. For example, if by having Logan on the team we increase the chances of getting points off of special teams (I do believe we have yet no evidence exists yet to support it), we improve our average starting field position after kick offs (which we've done) and we decrease the frequency of fumbles/turnovers on ount and kick returns (has he fumbled more than that one kick or punt where he was stood up and stripped for 6?) then I'll gladly give up that roster spot. I vividly recall having back up cb's (and S'tone as a rookie) fumbling away ko's and punts and wishing for a specialist who, at the very least, could field the damn kicks without giving the other team the ball. I really believe paps that Logan is going to score for us at least once, and it will be at a time or during a game where it could turn a game for us. Of course I wish it could be a done by someone who also can contribute as a back up or starter at a real position but we havn't had any luck with that since ARE, who was ridiculously overpaid by the skins

papillon
10-29-2009, 03:48 PM
You could probably find someone who is a decent punter and a decent kicker. You could probably find someone who is a decent tight end and a decent longsnapper. But this is the NFL. The best in the world play here. The elite of the elite. There are only 32 starting kicker jobs in this league, and they should go to the 32 best kickers in the world, not some guy who is merely an adequate kicker who can also punt reasonably well. Same with the 32 best punters and longsnappers. I'd rather a guy who is the best possible at his particular job than a guy who is a jack of all trades but master of none.

Heck, there are many on this board ready to kick one of the best place kickers in the game to the curb, because, he missed a couple field goals and his kickoffs don't sail into the freaking parking lot.

I disagree there will be at least 5-10 of the kickers playing this year that will be getting on with their life's work because they are only adequate at being a place kicker, same with punters. Just like the kickers and punters have focused on doing one job since they began playing football if someone was willing to put the time in they could master both tasks and get a job in the NFL.

While a long snapper is a skill that needs to be honed, I doubt that you need to put in the time that every down players put into their jobs. I have to believe that there are more 32 men that know how to long snap capably and can probably play another position as well if they are willing to put in the effort.

It's all about "want to", no one has "wanted to" bad enough yet.

Pappy

ikestops85
10-29-2009, 04:49 PM
You could probably find someone who is a decent punter and a decent kicker. You could probably find someone who is a decent tight end and a decent longsnapper. But this is the NFL. The best in the world play here. The elite of the elite. There are only 32 starting kicker jobs in this league, and they should go to the 32 best kickers in the world, not some guy who is merely an adequate kicker who can also punt reasonably well. Same with the 32 best punters and longsnappers. I'd rather a guy who is the best possible at his particular job than a guy who is a jack of all trades but master of none.

Heck, there are many on this board ready to kick one of the best place kickers in the game to the curb, because, he missed a couple field goals and his kickoffs don't sail into the freaking parking lot.

I disagree there will be at least 5-10 of the kickers playing this year that will be getting on with their life's work because they are only adequate at being a place kicker, same with punters. Just like the kickers and punters have focused on doing one job since they began playing football if someone was willing to put the time in they could master both tasks and get a job in the NFL.

While a long snapper is a skill that needs to be honed, I doubt that you need to put in the time that every down players put into their jobs. I have to believe that there are more 32 men that know how to long snap capably and can probably play another position as well if they are willing to put in the effort.

It's all about "want to", no one has "wanted to" bad enough yet.

Pappy

Ask the bengals about the importance of a long snapper. I think Jom has had some choice words about the guy. Long snapping is a technical skill that requires a lot of practice and you never appreciate what they do until you see a bad snap.

We all know what happened when we had to use Jimmy Hate as the long snapper. It's not something that just anyone can do -- especially on a part time basis. Right about now I'd be willing to give a roster spot to a guy who could kick off into the end zone. Our poor coverage on kickoffs had led to many points by our opponents. Two have been returned for touchdowns and almost as important several others returned into our own territory.

There is a reason these people take up a roster spot. More games than people like to admit (cough Bears cough) turn on special team plays.

phillyesq
10-29-2009, 05:26 PM
You could probably find someone who is a decent punter and a decent kicker. You could probably find someone who is a decent tight end and a decent longsnapper. But this is the NFL. The best in the world play here. The elite of the elite. There are only 32 starting kicker jobs in this league, and they should go to the 32 best kickers in the world, not some guy who is merely an adequate kicker who can also punt reasonably well. Same with the 32 best punters and longsnappers. I'd rather a guy who is the best possible at his particular job than a guy who is a jack of all trades but master of none.

Heck, there are many on this board ready to kick one of the best place kickers in the game to the curb, because, he missed a couple field goals and his kickoffs don't sail into the freaking parking lot.

I disagree there will be at least 5-10 of the kickers playing this year that will be getting on with their life's work because they are only adequate at being a place kicker, same with punters. Just like the kickers and punters have focused on doing one job since they began playing football if someone was willing to put the time in they could master both tasks and get a job in the NFL.

While a long snapper is a skill that needs to be honed, I doubt that you need to put in the time that every down players put into their jobs. I have to believe that there are more 32 men that know how to long snap capably and can probably play another position as well if they are willing to put in the effort.

It's all about "want to", no one has "wanted to" bad enough yet.

Pappy

Ask the bengals about the importance of a long snapper. I think Jom has had some choice words about the guy. Long snapping is a technical skill that requires a lot of practice and you never appreciate what they do until you see a bad snap.

We all know what happened when we had to use Jimmy Hate as the long snapper. It's not something that just anyone can do -- especially on a part time basis. Right about now I'd be willing to give a roster spot to a guy who could kick off into the end zone. Our poor coverage on kickoffs had led to many points by our opponents. Two have been returned for touchdowns and almost as important several others returned into our own territory.

There is a reason these people take up a roster spot. More games than people like to admit (cough Bears cough) turn on special team plays.

I was just going to bring up the Harrison thing from last year.

Pappy, I understand and admire your disdain for specialists, but in some cases, I think it is at least warranted, if not necessary. Having a third TE who can also long-snap sounds great in theory, but in practice, if the backup TE hurts himself playing elsewhere on special teams, or has somebody roll up on his ankle while blocking on the goalline, suddenly the team is in trouble. Long snapping is a very tough skill, and it is worth having somebody that does that and only that. I think the Giants game last year demonstrated that.

As for the return game, I think the argument against specialists is generally stronger. Ideally, a backup corner/wr will also be able to return kicks and punts. Logan, however, provides an interesting counterpoint. Logan is averaging 26.5 yards per KO return. Last year, as a team, the Steelers averaged 20.3 years. Is a 6 yard per drive advantage in field position worth carrying a specialty player? I'd say yes.

Mel Blount's G
11-06-2009, 02:34 AM
Btw, I thought I'd share this on the subject of a "guy" doing punting and kicking duties: I was skimming over a page with a list of lonest field goals in the nfl, college and high school. I found the following regarding a field goal:

61 yards Ray Guy, Southern Mississippi (L 21-27) at Utah State, 11/18/1972
Logan, Utah [in snowstorm] (2" tee)
So I'm betting he could have done both!

This was the page w/ the info: http://www.luckyshow.org/football/field%20goals%20of%2060%20yards%20or%20more.htm
Wasn't/isn't Todd Sauerbrun a punter too? He's in there for kicking a kicking a 63 yard FG in high school w/ no tee.

Maybe, Paps, NFL teams do not want to risk injury with their specialists by having them do various duties? Does seem like there are guys who could both punt and kick.

*Martin Gramatica kicked 65 yarder in college w/ out a tee. Gramatica was the guy that blew out his knee in the NFL after celebrating a kick

Flasteel
11-06-2009, 08:33 AM
*Martin Gramatica kicked 65 yarder in college w/ out a tee. Gramatica was the guy that blew out his knee in the NFL after celebrating a kick

That was the Hamburgler's brother, Bill.

papillon
11-06-2009, 10:09 AM
I'm still surprised that no enterprising soccer player has ever taken the time to learn how to punt a football.
I realize that it's not quite soocer :lol: but several Austrailian rules Football players have been succesful punters in the NFL. I remember former ARF'er Darren Bennett being an incredible weapon for the Chargers as a punter. Not only that but he was not afraid to bring a returner down hard if needed.


How about a backup TE and long snapper? I just don't see the infatuation with the specialist or maybe, I'm just too obtuse to see the obvious.
http://www.listosaurusrex.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/obtuse.PNG
Paps: I see your point but the way I see it is that if by having a specialist we significantly increase our chances of winning a game, or often it's more like, we decrease our chances of losing a game, then it's worth the roster spot. For example, if by having Logan on the team we increase the chances of getting points off of special teams (I do believe we have yet no evidence exists yet to support it), we improve our average starting field position after kick offs (which we've done) and we decrease the frequency of fumbles/turnovers on ount and kick returns (has he fumbled more than that one kick or punt where he was stood up and stripped for 6?) then I'll gladly give up that roster spot. I vividly recall having back up cb's (and S'tone as a rookie) fumbling away ko's and punts and wishing for a specialist who, at the very least, could field the damn kicks without giving the other team the ball. I really believe paps that Logan is going to score for us at least once, and it will be at a time or during a game where it could turn a game for us. Of course I wish it could be a done by someone who also can contribute as a back up or starter at a real position but we havn't had any luck with that since ARE, who was ridiculously overpaid by the skins

With the skill players on this team on offense all the Steelers really need to do is secure the ball and turn it over to the offense. If Logan scores once that will be as often as Holmes and Holmes' happened in a big moment in a playoff game. Everyone is worried about an every down player getting hurt. If Logan gets hurt it's the same situation, injuries happen, it's football. I would have rather kept the defensive lineman that Carolina picked up and put him on the developmental squad. Or, kept one of the offensive lineman on the 53 man roster.

I just don't see enough benefit from having Logan on the roster or the long snapper. Some folks are making it sound like to be a good long snapper you have to practice 3 to 4 hours a day for 15 years. If you worked on this skill in college for 4 years, I believe you'd be good enough to do the job and play your position.

As far as the James Harrison debacle last year, every team in the league would have been in the same predicament if their long snapper goes down. No team looks for a backup long snapper. You have an emergency plan and Harrison was ours, he tried, it didn't work out, you move on.

So, using a third TE as a long snapper and he goes down; you're still in the same predicament as if you have a long snapping specialist. You go to your emergency plan.

Wouldn't the Steelers have loved to have another defensive lineman on the roster right now with Kirschke and Smith out? I think so.

Pappy
Pappy

RuthlessBurgher
11-06-2009, 10:27 AM
Wouldn't the Steelers have loved to have another defensive lineman on the roster right now with Kirschke and Smith out? I think so.

Luckily for us, we were able to get Sonny Harris back again (that defensive lineman that Carolina picked up), and he will be suiting up for us for the first time on Monday because of Kirschke's injury. It's all good.

steelblood
11-06-2009, 10:59 AM
Long snapping is a technical skill and takes a bit of finesse as well when the weather and field conditions are poor. However, it is not terribly difficult to master. It takes a lot of practice, but there plenty of good long snappers in high school and college that have the skill and size to play in the NFL. You don't need great physical gifts and the skill/motion is the same for virtually all teams. The main reason that people screw it up is that they can't handle the pressure. It is one of those jobs that has no margin for error and you sit and wait for your 3-8 opportunities all day long. Mental strength is paramount.

papillon
11-06-2009, 12:51 PM
Wouldn't the Steelers have loved to have another defensive lineman on the roster right now with Kirschke and Smith out? I think so.

Luckily for us, we were able to get Sonny Harris back again (that defensive lineman that Carolina picked up), and he will be suiting up for us for the first time on Monday because of Kirschke's injury. It's all good.

And, he hasn't been practicing with the Steelers to learn the defense, had there been a spot for him he would be ahead of the game. He's an emergency player right now.

Pappy

RuthlessBurgher
11-06-2009, 03:09 PM
Wouldn't the Steelers have loved to have another defensive lineman on the roster right now with Kirschke and Smith out? I think so.

Luckily for us, we were able to get Sonny Harris back again (that defensive lineman that Carolina picked up), and he will be suiting up for us for the first time on Monday because of Kirschke's injury. It's all good.

And, he hasn't been practicing with the Steelers to learn the defense, had there been a spot for him he would be ahead of the game. He's an emergency player right now.

Pappy

He's been with us for all of the minicamps, training camp, all of the preseason games, and the last few weeks since Smith went down. We tried to keep him on our practice squad in the beginning of the season, but Carolina claimed him. I'm glad we have him back now, but the decision to keep Warren and Logan on the 53 man roster and expose Harris to the practice squad was the correct one. I'd rather have a reliable longsnapper and a dangerous return man than an 8th defensive lineman, who has moved up to the 6th defensive lineman because of injuries.

papillon
11-06-2009, 03:46 PM
Wouldn't the Steelers have loved to have another defensive lineman on the roster right now with Kirschke and Smith out? I think so.

Luckily for us, we were able to get Sonny Harris back again (that defensive lineman that Carolina picked up), and he will be suiting up for us for the first time on Monday because of Kirschke's injury. It's all good.

And, he hasn't been practicing with the Steelers to learn the defense, had there been a spot for him he would be ahead of the game. He's an emergency player right now.

Pappy

He's been with us for all of the minicamps, training camp, all of the preseason games, and the last few weeks since Smith went down. We tried to keep him on our practice squad in the beginning of the season, but Carolina claimed him. I'm glad we have him back now, but the decision to keep Warren and Logan on the 53 man roster and expose Harris to the practice squad was the correct one. I'd rather have a reliable longsnapper and a dangerous return man than an 8th defensive lineman, who has moved up to the 6th defensive lineman because of injuries.

Harris was a UDFA or late round pick, he's not Ziggy Hood being drafted in the first round. Harris wasn't around long enough to grasp the defense and his responsibilities in that defense. Hood hasn't seen much playing time and he's the first round draft pick and he's been through all the same camps and practices as Harris.

Why do you consider Logan dangerous? Because, he returned a few kicks against some players who are not in the NFL any longer? I just don't see what danger he brings, he hasn't done anything to warrant the other team to kick or punt away from him. He's actually given up a special teams touchdown by fighting for yards when securing the ball was the play.

I'll take a punt returner who fields every punt flawlessly and gains zero or minimal yardage as opposed to a punt returner with potential to take it to the house. The long snapping thing is a horse of a different color, it isn't that difficult to learn to long snap. It may take years just like anything else, but a marginal positional player can make himself more attractive by being able to perform this skill and save a team a roster spot.

Apparently, I'm the only one that believes these specialists are a waste of roster space. Everyone else seems to think it's a good idea to keep these types of guys around. Knowing Mike Tomlin's love for versatile players, I'm surprised that he keeps specialists on his team.

Pappy

RuthlessBurgher
11-06-2009, 04:04 PM
Field position is important. Even if your returner doesn't break one for a TD, just getting an extra 5 yards per punt return or an extra 10 yards on a kick return really adds up over the course of a game. Logan may not be Devin Hester in his prime as a return man right now, but he is by far the best we have had since Randle El signed with Washington. Need I remind you of Ricardo Colclough and Hank Poteat trying to return punts or Najeh Davenport and Gary Russell trying to return kicks?

Logan does have to be only a return specialist; he could eventually contribute on offense occasionally as well, utilizing his shiftiness on pitchouts or bubble screens like Darren Sproles or Leon Washington. If you recall, Hester was a CB in college, but the Bears drafted him as a returner. But they eventually saw enough skill when he had the ball in his hands that they developed him into a starting WR. Not that I see "full-time starting WR" capability in Logan's future, necessarily, but he can potentially contribute in other roles besides on returns (for example he is already playing gunner on punt coverage teams as well right now).

If we had a position player who could also long-snap, that would be great. But those are few and far-between. A few years ago, Zak DeOssie came out, and he was a LB prospect who could also long-snap. I was interested in him as a draft possibility, but his Dad's old team in New York ended up taking him.