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stlrz d
10-18-2009, 02:34 PM
Why is it so difficult for Harlan and Wilcotts to realize the camera angle is from behind the ball?

As many games as these guys go to how can they not know that the sideline tracks that the camera car runs on don't go the whole length of the field?

NKySteeler
10-18-2009, 02:39 PM
Still a strange play.... Usually it looks pretty good.

Djfan
10-18-2009, 05:43 PM
Even the replay with the angle looked like it didn't make it. I still think that they tried to pay them back with the non-TD call on Ward.

stlrz d
10-18-2009, 06:28 PM
Even the replay with the angle looked like it didn't make it. I still think that they tried to pay them back with the non-TD call on Ward.

The replay was the same shot...from behind the ball. In that part of the field a shot from behind the ball when it is that close will look like they didn't get it.

Tomlin was standing directly in line with the ball and signaled first down immediately as soon as the chain was stretched and the marker put down.

DukieBoy
10-18-2009, 06:36 PM
Wilcots has orange stripes over his eyes. The other guy has even less excuse.

stlrz d
10-18-2009, 06:47 PM
Wilcots has orange stripes over his eyes. The other guy has even less excuse.

And Wilcots even played for us his last season.

SuperSize
10-18-2009, 07:06 PM
Why is it so difficult for Harlan and Wilcotts to realize the camera angle is from behind the ball?

As many games as these guys go to how can they not know that the sideline tracks that the camera car runs on don't go the whole length of the field?

I am amazed how many times they commented on that, did they really think that the refs would miss it if it was 2" short like the angle of the camera was showing it? I always thought Wilcots was a decent announcer, but after hearing him say "flustrated" about a dozen times and calling Rashard "Mendinghall" all afternoon I am now convinced he is an idiot.


Pete

SanAntonioSteelerFan
10-18-2009, 09:15 PM
See the end of the first post in this thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8537 (http://www.planetsteelers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8537) to read what the ref said about the call.

I still don't understand why this is the only play I have ever seen where the TV pic didn't correlate with the call, in terms of just short or just made it past the line.

But, since Hines was robbed big time later in the game, and especially since we won, I'll take it.

costanza2k1
10-18-2009, 09:16 PM
If that had happened to us, we would've been in an uproar. Whether they had a bad angle or not, it sure didn't look like a bad camera angle and I've never ever seen one on a chain measurement before. The refs screwed that call up in my opinion. Either way the Browns wouldn't have won.

stlrz d
10-18-2009, 09:18 PM
For God's sake you guys...even the official explained that what was on TV was an angle from BEHIND the ball.

DukieBoy
10-18-2009, 09:22 PM
perseveration [p???s?v??re???n]
1. (Psychology) the tendency for an impression, idea, or feeling to dissipate only slowly and to recur during subsequent experiences.

costanza2k1
10-18-2009, 09:32 PM
For God's sake you guys...even the official explained that what was on TV was an angle from BEHIND the ball.


I must have missed that during the game...too many people at the house watching the game today...

stlrz d
10-18-2009, 09:35 PM
For God's sake you guys...even the official explained that what was on TV was an angle from BEHIND the ball.


I must have missed that during the game...too many people at the house watching the game today...

It's from the post game presser. See SASF's post above. :)

phillyesq
10-18-2009, 10:37 PM
I had to watch the game at a bar today, so I didn't have the benefit of sound (not sure if it would have made a difference). I sure didn't think that it was a first down, but hey, I'll take it.

stlrz d
10-18-2009, 11:02 PM
From the post game presser:


Walt Anderson Re: fourth down measurement

Why it was a first down?

"The ball has to penetrate the plane of the stake. When we set the ball up ready to measure and we bring the chains out, the chains are set beside the football, they're not put down on top of the football. So I get on the side and I'm looking straight in at that angle. So when the stakes go down I'm sighting in between the nose of the football and the stake. So if the nose of the ball touches the stake then it's a first down. It's kind of like a football touching the plane of the goal line. But we don't actually put the stake up against the nose of the ball because of the way the ball is shaped. The chains and the stake are laid beside...so it kind of depends on the angle you might be looking at it from."

Picture showed ball short of the stick

"It depends on which angle you might be looking. I'm looking from straight on so I guess it's conceivable that's why I don't get it back at an angle because it can be deceptive because there's a little bit of a distance probably in the neighborhood of five or six inches between the actual point of the football and where the stake actually sets on the ground. If you shot at an angle maybe from back behind the ball it might look like it's short. If you shot at angle the other side, it might actually look like it's further in advance of the stake then what it actually."

Where he was measuring the nose of the ball was at the stake?

"It touched the plane of the stake because that's what I'm looking at."


The correct call was made and you stand by it?

"Yes"



:) :) :)

feltdizz
10-19-2009, 11:16 AM
The way I see it.. If you need 4 paragraphs to explain what is or isn't a first down you screwed up. If the browns got the ball after the camera showed the nose past the stake but not really past the stake because it was beside and not on top of the ball we would all scream foul.

I'm a steeler fan but I can admit when we get a favorable call and not act like human error isn't possible in my teams favor. I watched it with 50 steeler fans and everyone of them felt like that wasn't a first down

I've never seen an angle where 2 chain links were an illusion due to camera tricks.

frankthetank1
10-19-2009, 11:20 AM
at first i thought it was a bad call but not only was the camera angle bad im almost 100% sure that the measurement is to the end of the chain link not the pole. of course that wasnt brought up by the two idiots doing play by play

ikestops85
10-19-2009, 11:33 AM
I really don't see how an official standing right over the ball could screw that call up. It's not like it was a bang bang play where replay might have helped. What I was glad about was I thought they gave us a really, really, really favorable spot on the play so the measurement could show it being a first down. :)

rpmpit
10-19-2009, 11:33 AM
The way I see it.. If you need 4 paragraphs to explain what is or isn't a first down you screwed up. If the browns got the ball after the camera showed the nose past the stake but not really past the stake because it was beside and not on top of the ball we would all scream foul.

I'm a steeler fan but I can admit when we get a favorable call and not act like human error isn't possible in my teams favor. I watched it with 50 steeler fans and everyone of them felt like that wasn't a first down

I've never seen an angle where 2 chain links were an illusion due to camera tricks.

Have to agree with you, dizz. There's what, 10-20 (or more) cameras covering every NFL game?? And they couldn't find a shot with a better angle? I'm just glad it didn't really factor into the outcome of the game.

MeetJoeGreene
10-19-2009, 11:37 AM
I am anxiously awaiting the objective opinions and commentary on this matter from Mike Holmgroin, John Madden, and Rich Eisen.

rpmpit
10-19-2009, 11:39 AM
I am anxiously awaiting the objective opinions and commentary on this matter from Mike Holmgroin, John Madden, and Rich Eisen.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

RuthlessBurgher
10-19-2009, 01:15 PM
See the end of the first post in this thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8537 (http://www.planetsteelers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8537) to read what the ref said about the call.

I still don't understand why this is the only play I have ever seen where the TV pic didn't correlate with the call, in terms of just short or just made it past the line.

But, since Hines was robbed big time later in the game, and especially since we won, I'll take it.

I guess we got the same camera angle on the stadium Jumbotron that you folks got on TV at home, because as soon as they pulled the chain taut, and I saw the gap between the ball and the pole, I groaned audibly and was lamenting the failed fourth down conversion. A few seconds later, I looked up, and asked the guy next to me why our offense was still out on the field. None of us could figure it out. We all thought we were well short.

Wolfhound45
10-19-2009, 01:43 PM
I did not see the game on TV so I have a question. How did the Browns players react to the call? Did they go ballistic? How about the Browns coaching staff? Just wondering.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
10-19-2009, 02:18 PM
I did not see the game on TV so I have a question. How did the Browns players react to the call? Did they go ballistic? How about the Browns coaching staff? Just wondering.

That's the weird thing. They DIDN'T go ballistic, at least on TV. So I guess that means that it probably was a 1st down. Maybe Ruth or others at the game saw a different reaction on the Browns bench than we did on TV.

Assuming that it was the right call, why in the world has the camera angle and the call ALWAYS matched up well before this play? Were the cameras set up wrong yesterday? It just seems to weird, needs more of an explanation than Walt had to give us.

Anyone know if they are bitching like mad on the Browns boards about the call?

RuthlessBurgher
10-19-2009, 02:41 PM
I did not see the game on TV so I have a question. How did the Browns players react to the call? Did they go ballistic? How about the Browns coaching staff? Just wondering.

That's the weird thing. They DIDN'T go ballistic, at least on TV. So I guess that means that it probably was a 1st down. Maybe Ruth or others at the game saw a different reaction on the Browns bench than we did on TV.

Assuming that it was the right call, why in the world has the camera angle and the call ALWAYS matched up well before this play? Were the cameras set up wrong yesterday? It just seems to weird, needs more of an explanation than Walt had to give us.

Anyone know if they are bitching like mad on the Browns boards about the call?

Sorry...didn't catch their reaction. I was in the midst of my own negative reaction to the perceived missed fourth down conversion. When I looked down toward the field again, our offense and their defense were still on the field ready to line up for the next play. I was too busy trying to figure out from those around me what just happened to pay any attention to the Cleveland sideline.

takagi
10-19-2009, 02:49 PM
I ordered the NFL game pass yesterday to watch the game.
I checked the play today and took the pic.
This is the best shot you can get

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/5820/measurement.jpg

I think there's an angle...loot at the stick

proudpittsburgher
10-19-2009, 02:58 PM
Thanks for the pick, which leads to another question . . . what is that key-looking thing between the last link and the flag? I had never seen anything like that before, so I assumed that it had something to do with the call.

takagi
10-19-2009, 03:04 PM
Thanks for the pick, which leads to another question . . . what is that key-looking thing between the last link and the flag? I had never seen anything like that before, so I assumed that it had something to do with the call.

I don't know what's up with the 'key', but here's another pic and there's also that thing

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/01/01/sports/01chains.1.600.jpg

SanAntonioSteelerFan
10-19-2009, 03:17 PM
Any Clowns board lurkers here?

LasVegasGuy
10-19-2009, 03:44 PM
Why is it so difficult for Harlan and Wilcotts to realize the camera angle is from behind the ball?

As many games as these guys go to how can they not know that the sideline tracks that the camera car runs on don't go the whole length of the field?


Was the camera angle really behind the ball? Maybe you should take off your black and gold blinders and see this for what it is worth. No way was that a first down............Period!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAxsgBYFPaw

LasVegasGuy
10-19-2009, 03:49 PM
Thanks for the pick, which leads to another question . . . what is that key-looking thing between the last link and the flag? I had never seen anything like that before, so I assumed that it had something to do with the call.

I don't know what's up with the 'key', but here's another pic and there's also that thing

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/01/01/sports/01chains.1.600.jpg


I don't even think that shot is from the Steelers/Browns game. First, the ref is wearing a glove and from the other shots no gloves were being worn by the refs. Second, it says Bills on the ball.

takagi
10-19-2009, 03:53 PM
Thanks for the pick, which leads to another question . . . what is that key-looking thing between the last link and the flag? I had never seen anything like that before, so I assumed that it had something to do with the call.

I don't know what's up with the 'key', but here's another pic and there's also that thing

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/01/01/sports/01chains.1.600.jpg


I don't even think that shot is from the Steelers/Browns game. First, the ref is wearing a glove and from the other shots no gloves were being worn by the refs. Second, it says Bills on the ball.

of course it's not from the Steelers - Stains game
I posted that picture to show that the 'key thing' between the last link and the stick is a normal thing :)

Iron Shiek
10-19-2009, 04:00 PM
Thanks for the pick, which leads to another question . . . what is that key-looking thing between the last link and the flag? I had never seen anything like that before, so I assumed that it had something to do with the call.

I don't know what's up with the 'key', but here's another pic and there's also that thing

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/01/01/sports/01chains.1.600.jpg


Obviously some kind of "optical illusion" type circumstance, look at the line on the field, we are definitely looking at it from an angle. I can't for any reason see any way a ref standing above the ball and flag would miss this call, so I will say that I believe its correct. Now the spot of the ball can definitely be questioned.

My main question is why did the ball say Bills on it? Did we stamp it on there to trick DA into thinking we were still playing the Bills in hopes of another 2-17 27 yd day?

Iron Shiek
10-19-2009, 04:02 PM
of course it's not from the Steelers - Stains game
I posted that picture to show that the 'key thing' between the last link and the stick is a normal thing :)


Oh my bad, ignore my last comment then...well at least it would've been a good theory as to why Bills was on the ball.

takagi
10-19-2009, 04:05 PM
Thanks for the pick, which leads to another question . . . what is that key-looking thing between the last link and the flag? I had never seen anything like that before, so I assumed that it had something to do with the call.

I don't know what's up with the 'key', but here's another pic and there's also that thing

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/01/01/sports/01chains.1.600.jpg


Obviously some kind of "optical illusion" type circumstance, look at the line on the field, we are definitely looking at it from an angle. I can't for any reason see any way a ref standing above the ball and flag would miss this call, so I will say that I believe its correct. Now the spot of the ball can definitely be questioned.

My main question is why did the ball say Bills on it? Did we stamp it on there to trick DA into thinking we were still playing the Bills in hopes of another 2-17 27 yd day?

nono..it's just a random pic I found from the net (to compare the KEY):D

the real pic is one or two posts above :)

takagi
10-19-2009, 04:06 PM
of course it's not from the Steelers - Stains game
I posted that picture to show that the 'key thing' between the last link and the stick is a normal thing :)


Oh my bad, ignore my last comment then...well at least it would've been a good theory as to why Bills was on the ball.

haha :D

sd steel
10-19-2009, 04:06 PM
Why is it so difficult for Harlan and Wilcotts to realize the camera angle is from behind the ball?

As many games as these guys go to how can they not know that the sideline tracks that the camera car runs on don't go the whole length of the field?


Was the camera angle really behind the ball? Maybe you should take off your black and gold blinders and see this for what it is worth. No way was that a first down............Period!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAxsgBYFPaw

I really can't believe this is even being discussed, first off it was a bad spot, Ben made it easy. To top it off dumb a$$ CBS, camera angle was from behind the ball, creating an optical illusion to seem as if the ball didn't reach the stake. The Ref's were right on top of the ball and would be able to tell if the ball reached the marker or not. If it didn't reach the marker it would have been Browns ball. The Brown's sideline and players were not complaining about fact that the ball didn't reach the stake, they were complaining about the spot. If the ref's were to have really given us a new set of down's on national TV if the ball didn't reach the marker they would all be fired.

As for the little key that all you guys need to fiqure out what it is, it is a clip, that you can buy at a hardware store, to clip the chain to the marker. Maybe if you guys are that interested in the chains and markers, you could volunteer at your local youth football league or highschool and be part of the chain gang some friday afternoon or Saturday. Otherwise let it go, it was a first down, you can even see in the picture that it was taken from in front of the football by the angle of the marker.

stlrz d
10-19-2009, 09:24 PM
[quote="stlrz d":4yqh3ltt]Why is it so difficult for Harlan and Wilcotts to realize the camera angle is from behind the ball?

As many games as these guys go to how can they not know that the sideline tracks that the camera car runs on don't go the whole length of the field?


Was the camera angle really behind the ball? Maybe you should take off your black and gold blinders and see this for what it is worth. No way was that a first down............Period!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAxsgBYFPaw

I really can't believe this is even being discussed, first off it was a bad spot, Ben made it easy. To top it off dumb a$$ CBS, camera angle was from behind the ball, creating an optical illusion to seem as if the ball didn't reach the stake. The Ref's were right on top of the ball and would be able to tell if the ball reached the marker or not. If it didn't reach the marker it would have been Browns ball. The Brown's sideline and players were not complaining about fact that the ball didn't reach the stake, they were complaining about the spot. If the ref's were to have really given us a new set of down's on national TV if the ball didn't reach the marker they would all be fired.

As for the little key that all you guys need to fiqure out what it is, it is a clip, that you can buy at a hardware store, to clip the chain to the marker. Maybe if you guys are that interested in the chains and markers, you could volunteer at your local youth football league or highschool and be part of the chain gang some friday afternoon or Saturday. Otherwise let it go, it was a first down, you can even see in the picture that it was taken from in front of the football by the angle of the marker.[/quote:4yqh3ltt]

Hey, why don't you take off your black and gold, Tim the Toolman blinders?!? :lol:

~~~~

The sideline camera at NFL games is a dolly camera. That means it is on a little choo choo train track that runs along the sideline...and the little choo choo train tracks don't run from goal line to goal line...so yes, the camera WAS in fact behind the ball. And yes, the Browns players and coaches were harping about the spot before first down was signaled.

At any rate, I thought sure Ben was just going to try and draw them offsides, take the 5 yard delay and leave a chip shot FG for Skippy.

spyboots
10-19-2009, 10:16 PM
Make up for the holding not called against the Browns on the Cribbs runback.

JTP53609
10-20-2009, 08:23 AM
of all the things that are brought up all the time on gamedays that we hear over and over again to the point where it seems we know more than the actual commentators, i find it ridiculous that this issue has never been brought up to where there is a clear cut rule, i still dont know if the ball has to be at the enf of the last link or if it has to be touching the actual pole...

sd steel
10-20-2009, 08:32 AM
of all the things that are brought up all the time on gamedays that we hear over and over again to the point where it seems we know more than the actual commentators, i find it ridiculous that this issue has never been brought up to where there is a clear cut rule, i still dont know if the ball has to be at the enf of the last link or if it has to be touching the actual pole...

You should watch more football then.....The markers are 10 yards apart, hence the ball must be even with or past the first down marker. As far a "touching poles", I don't care what you do in your free time.

JTP53609
10-20-2009, 08:57 AM
of all the things that are brought up all the time on gamedays that we hear over and over again to the point where it seems we know more than the actual commentators, i find it ridiculous that this issue has never been brought up to where there is a clear cut rule, i still dont know if the ball has to be at the enf of the last link or if it has to be touching the actual pole...

You should watch more football then.....The markers are 10 yards apart, hence the ball must be even with or past the first down marker. As far a "touching poles", I don't care what you do in your free time.

thank you for your insight, i could never figure out what they meant by first and ten or third and 3 after all these years :Blah... i did not mean to confuse the question, maybe read it slower next time so you can understand. all i know is that i heard bill hillgrove say on the postgame show that if it is past the last link than it is a first down, but tunch said that the ball has to be touching the pole...

feltdizz
10-20-2009, 12:22 PM
Why is it so difficult for Harlan and Wilcotts to realize the camera angle is from behind the ball?

As many games as these guys go to how can they not know that the sideline tracks that the camera car runs on don't go the whole length of the field?


Was the camera angle really behind the ball? Maybe you should take off your black and gold blinders and see this for what it is worth. No way was that a first down............Period!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAxsgBYFPaw

although a small part of me thinks you were mad when they made this bad call... I agree... LOL!!

that was the weirdest optical illusion ever.. I'll take it but I won't act like the call was iffy at best.

ikestops85
10-20-2009, 12:56 PM
Why is it so difficult for Harlan and Wilcotts to realize the camera angle is from behind the ball?

As many games as these guys go to how can they not know that the sideline tracks that the camera car runs on don't go the whole length of the field?


Was the camera angle really behind the ball? Maybe you should take off your black and gold blinders and see this for what it is worth. No way was that a first down............Period!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAxsgBYFPaw

What in the world are you looking at that you can't tell the camera is behind the ball? It is obvious that the shot was from an angle. Now, do you really think the referee standing right over the stick and the ball blew the call? :roll:

Now if you want to say the Steelers got a break on the spot of the ball I can't argue with you but to think they gave us that call is ludicrous.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
10-20-2009, 01:13 PM
Why is it so difficult for Harlan and Wilcotts to realize the camera angle is from behind the ball?

As many games as these guys go to how can they not know that the sideline tracks that the camera car runs on don't go the whole length of the field?


Was the camera angle really behind the ball? Maybe you should take off your black and gold blinders and see this for what it is worth. No way was that a first down............Period!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAxsgBYFPaw

What in the world are you looking at that you can't tell the camera is behind the ball? It is obvious that the shot was from an angle. Now, do you really think the referee standing right over the stick and the ball blew the call? :roll:

Now if you want to say the Steelers got a break on the spot of the ball I can't argue with you but to think they gave us that call is ludicrous.

Not arguing with anybody, but how is it so obvious. There are no yard lines going across the field to reference by (for example, if the yard line isn't "angled" in the picture, then we could assume the camera is looking straight across the field). So are you going by the stick, that it doesn't look "square" in the camera's view? I can understand that, but as far as I can see there's nothing that keeps the stick from rotating a bit, so IMO the camera might be even with the ball >> which would make the call a wrong one under that circumstance.

Or am I missing an obvious point (again!)?

Thanks!

ikestops85
10-20-2009, 01:27 PM
Why is it so difficult for Harlan and Wilcotts to realize the camera angle is from behind the ball?

As many games as these guys go to how can they not know that the sideline tracks that the camera car runs on don't go the whole length of the field?


Was the camera angle really behind the ball? Maybe you should take off your black and gold blinders and see this for what it is worth. No way was that a first down............Period!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAxsgBYFPaw

What in the world are you looking at that you can't tell the camera is behind the ball? It is obvious that the shot was from an angle. Now, do you really think the referee standing right over the stick and the ball blew the call? :roll:

Now if you want to say the Steelers got a break on the spot of the ball I can't argue with you but to think they gave us that call is ludicrous.

Not arguing with anybody, but how is it so obvious. There are no yard lines going across the field to reference by (for example, if the yard line isn't "angled" in the picture, then we could assume the camera is looking straight across the field). So are you going by the stick, that it doesn't look "square" in the camera's view? I can understand that, but as far as I can see there's nothing that keeps the stick from rotating a bit, so IMO the camera might be even with the ball >> which would make the call a wrong one under that circumstance.

Or am I missing an obvious point (again!)?

Thanks!

I think the giveaway is the chain itself. If you were looking staight down the line that would mean the chain would be running directly from left to right across your screen. In this case the chain is running from upper left to lower right. That's how you can tell it is on an angle ... I think :)

proudpittsburgher
10-20-2009, 05:22 PM
Honestly, does this all really matter? The fact is this is the first time we have ever looked at a measurement on TV that we all thought was short and had them signal first down. The more we talk about angles and shat the more we sound like conspiracy theorists. Either way, we are all pretty sure that measurement had no bearing on the outcome of the game, and that the Browns suck.

Wolfhound45
10-20-2009, 07:07 PM
Honestly, does this all really matter? The fact is this is the first time we have ever looked at a measurement on TV that we all thought was short and had them signal first down. The more we talk about angles and shat the more we sound like conspiracy theorists. Either way, we are all pretty sure that measurement had no bearing on the outcome of the game, and that the Browns suck.

:Agree