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jj28west
10-14-2009, 06:35 PM
I am feeling a better after reading some good points on why loosing Smith will not be catestrophic.

I wanted to throw this idea that I have been mulling around with the past couple of weeks out there to see if others agree.

If you were calling the shots and had complete control over personnel as the defensive coach would you go after a shut down corner? I realize you would have to be talking a risk with either giving up high draft picks or loosing some higher quality (also higher salary guys) and no, I have not spent a lot of thought on that part but a shut down corner would even revolutionize the current flavor of the 3-4 that we play.

Do you remember the days of Deon ,Woodson, Ty Law where these guys could literally take your #1 receiver away with no safety "Tampa Two", etc coverage. Think of the possibilities if the #1 was negated. I know that finding a high caliber corner is as tough as finding a franchise quarterback. I think that there are not even 5 today that you can actually leave on an island. In my opinion, Ike (take away the hands) could be this guy.

He was well on his way until he got the big contract and was getting benched by Cower.
Having said that he works well with the current system as does Gay.

I just remember the games where QB's would not even look at their number 1 or whoever Deon or Rod was covering. It even got so bad at times that they would try to bait the QB's to throw.

Thoughts?

SidSmythe
10-14-2009, 06:46 PM
IKE is as good as ur going to get in the Steelers 3-4 defense.

pfelix73
10-14-2009, 07:03 PM
I know many think that Ike is a super CB and all, but I'm still not 100% convinced. I guess I won't be until he makes the pro bowl. He can be great at times, and then be inconsistent.

There is no way he is as good as our old buddy Hot Rod Woodson. But then again, who is? Just think how great it would be to have a Rod Woodson type along side Troy. That's why I wanted Revis way back 2 drafts ago. Revis with Troy. What a combo that would be. And Ike on the other side. Ok- I'm done dreaming.

:tt1

SidSmythe
10-14-2009, 07:07 PM
I know many think that Ike is a super CB and all, but I'm still not 100% convinced. I guess I won't be until he makes the pro bowl. He can be great at times, and then be inconsistent.

There is no way he is as good as our old buddy Hot Rod Woodson. But then again, who is? Just think how great it would be to have a Rod Woodson type along side Troy. That's why I wanted Revis way back 2 drafts ago. Revis with Troy. What a combo that would be. And Ike on the other side. Ok- I'm done dreaming.

:tt1

IKE will never make the Pro-Bowl b/c he can't catch, therefor will never have the INT's to draw attention. For the defense we have and the contract he has, he's living up to it.

Revis is in a league of his own w/ the best of the best
IKE might not be the franchise guy, but he's a top 15 CB and plays our system well.

williar
10-14-2009, 07:16 PM
A stutdown corner is as important to a defense as any position. The luxuries offenses now have, and with quarterbacks slinging the ball all over the field, you better have a some quality db's who are up for the challenge. I still shutter when I think how close we might have been to drafting Darelle Revis. That kid is awsome, and would have been just what the doctor ordered. I see what he has done for that jet defense. He is their best player, and is able to neutralize other teams biggest offensive weapon. With Troy finally back I hope we start seeing a resurgence in our defensive backfield. I am having bad flashbacks watching our guys get picked apart. I thought we turned the corner last year, but I think the loss of B-mac just weakened our depth to the point which we couldn't really afford. But to your point about the shutdown corner, I agree they are essential.

pfelix73
10-14-2009, 07:20 PM
Yep. I think losing B Mac to the Cards was a huge loss too.

:tt1

I'm not convinced any of these guys we drafted this year are worth a hoot, but we'll give them some time. None of them obviously, will be pro-bowl type CBs. I'd bet my 1982 VW on that.

:tt1

Jom112
10-14-2009, 07:21 PM
The days of true shutdown corners are over because of all the rules against "touching" WR's. When going against top receivers you're always going to need at least double coverage.

You try to go man on man for any extended period of time against the likes of a player like Calvin Johnson and you're going to get beat repeatedly.

Even Darrell Revis got embarrassed by Ted Ginn Jr., when he doesn't get safety help over the top.

Elite pass rushers are the best way to go to shut down top QB's and #1 receivers, IMHO...

frankthetank1
10-14-2009, 07:25 PM
Yep. I think losing B Mac to the Cards was a huge loss too.

:tt1

I'm not convinced any of these guys we drafted this year are worth a hoot, but we'll give them some time. None of them obviously, will be pro-bowl type CBs. I'd bet my 1982 VW on that.

:tt1

you never know what will happen. who would of thought before the draft that mike wallace would turn out to be as good as he has in 5 games? im pretty sure ike didnt even play a full 4 years of football in college and he went to LA tech. my point is no one thought ike would be half as good as he is. bmac ehh he is pretty average. i definetly think out of gay, burnett and lewis one of them if not more will be as good or better than bmac

anger 82&95
10-14-2009, 07:50 PM
Remember when the faders had Hayes and Haynes?

stlrz d
10-14-2009, 08:54 PM
I know many think that Ike is a super CB and all, but I'm still not 100% convinced. I guess I won't be until he makes the pro bowl. He can be great at times, and then be inconsistent.

There is no way he is as good as our old buddy Hot Rod Woodson. But then again, who is? Just think how great it would be to have a Rod Woodson type along side Troy. That's why I wanted Revis way back 2 drafts ago. Revis with Troy. What a combo that would be. And Ike on the other side. Ok- I'm done dreaming.

:tt1

So until the coaches, players and fans vote for him you won't be convinced?

C'mon man!

Anyway, with the cushion LeBeau has behind his front 7 even Nmandi would be playing off the ball...and as was mentioned, the rules make it tougher to blanket a guy as well.

jj28west
10-14-2009, 09:05 PM
The days of true shutdown corners are over because of all the rules against "touching" WR's. When going against top receivers you're always going to need at least double coverage.

You try to go man on man for any extended period of time against the likes of a player like Calvin Johnson and you're going to get beat repeatedly.

Even Darrell Revis got embarrassed by Ted Ginn Jr., when he doesn't get safety help over the top.

Elite pass rushers are the best way to go to shut down top QB's and #1 receivers, IMHO...

I know there have been at least two rules put in place in the last 30 years that favored the receiver. The last one I beleive is the 5 yard rule. It makes you wonder if the rules were kept the same would the Desean Jacksons or Wes Welkers be as effective or would be getting mauled all the way down field. Hines would probably still be as effective.

Guys like Calvin and Fitz would definately be the exception.

RuthlessBurgher
10-14-2009, 09:09 PM
I know many think that Ike is a super CB and all, but I'm still not 100% convinced. I guess I won't be until he makes the pro bowl. He can be great at times, and then be inconsistent.

There is no way he is as good as our old buddy Hot Rod Woodson. But then again, who is? Just think how great it would be to have a Rod Woodson type along side Troy. That's why I wanted Revis way back 2 drafts ago. Revis with Troy. What a combo that would be. And Ike on the other side. Ok- I'm done dreaming.

:tt1

So until the coaches, players and fans vote for him you won't be convinced?

C'mon man!

Anyway, with the cushion LeBeau has behind his front 7 even Nmandi would be playing off the ball...and as was mentioned, the rules make it tougher to blanket a guy as well.


Exactly...you are reserving your opinion on a guy based upon the results of a popularity contest in which voting starts before the season is even half over, and the results are tabulated while there are still several games yet to be played? Yeah...I put a huge amount of stock in the guys who get named to the Pro Bowl (remember when the Cowboy safety Roy Williams got named to the Pro Bowl year after year even though everyone who watched him play for more than five minutes realized that he was a huge liability...and was eventually jettisoned to join the Bengals?)

papillon
10-14-2009, 10:19 PM
The days of true shutdown corners are over because of all the rules against "touching" WR's. When going against top receivers you're always going to need at least double coverage.

You try to go man on man for any extended period of time against the likes of a player like Calvin Johnson and you're going to get beat repeatedly.

Even Darrell Revis got embarrassed by Ted Ginn Jr., when he doesn't get safety help over the top.

Elite pass rushers are the best way to go to shut down top QB's and #1 receivers, IMHO...

I can't argue with this logic and I'd bet that this was true for some of the corners we consider shutdown, i.e. Woodson, Blount, Sanders, etc.

Pappy

Snatch98
10-15-2009, 02:43 AM
I know many think that Ike is a super CB and all, but I'm still not 100% convinced. I guess I won't be until he makes the pro bowl. He can be great at times, and then be inconsistent.

There is no way he is as good as our old buddy Hot Rod Woodson. But then again, who is? Just think how great it would be to have a Rod Woodson type along side Troy. That's why I wanted Revis way back 2 drafts ago. Revis with Troy. What a combo that would be. And Ike on the other side. Ok- I'm done dreaming.

:tt1

IKE will never make the Pro-Bowl b/c he can't catch, therefor will never have the INT's to draw attention. For the defense we have and the contract he has, he's living up to it.

Revis is in a league of his own w/ the best of the best
IKE might not be the franchise guy, but he's a top 15 CB and plays our system well.


Ike is up there and Revis is a beast. A BEAST WE ALMOST DRAFTED, but i'm happy we have Timmons. If Ike could catch he'd be scary and even still he does some pretty wild sh.it. Prime example last week when Culpepper tossed the desperation bomb and Taylor was SOARING like a damn bird up and over everyone else to knock it down. He's the real deal and easily in the top 10.

Oracle
10-15-2009, 04:01 AM
The days of true shutdown corners are over because of all the rules against "touching" WR's. When going against top receivers you're always going to need at least double coverage.

You try to go man on man for any extended period of time against the likes of a player like Calvin Johnson and you're going to get beat repeatedly.

Even Darrell Revis got embarrassed by Ted Ginn Jr., when he doesn't get safety help over the top.

Elite pass rushers are the best way to go to shut down top QB's and #1 receivers, IMHO...

--------------------------------

Thank you. It's all about the pass rush. Give the opposing QB 2.5 seconds or less and your average CB's look like stars.

Lonbull
10-15-2009, 04:35 AM
The days of true shutdown corners are over because of all the rules against "touching" WR's. When going against top receivers you're always going to need at least double coverage.

Elite pass rushers are the best way to go to shut down top QB's and #1 receivers, IMHO...

I agree with Jom112 - and I would even expand - by saying that one problem with the "Shutdown Corner" is how much they demand in the Salary Cap / Free Agency World that is now the NFL.

Deion Sanders played for 5 different teams, Rod Woodson played for 4 different teams because part of the issue is the demands of their talents outweight the value of the position - especially compared to a Quarterback.

A Franchise QB is in on every offensive play - even if it's a run the threat of play action is always there (unless you're running the Wildcat - but that's a different story).

Shutdown Corners may be able to stop (or at least contain) an opponent's best WR - but an offense can certainly work around that and still be very effective - then again what if the team is a powerhouse running team and their best WR is only mediocre?

It seems in the Salary Cap / Free Agent NFL if you can get a solid economic balance in your defense so that one Cornerback isn't getting paid 75% of what the entire secondary is getting paid - you're better off.

In short - economic balance is better - in the long run.

Before the Cap and Free Agency - I think teams could build around a shutdown corner (similiar to what the Steelers did with Rod Woodson) - and he would be just as effective as a franchise QB - I don't think the economics of it makes as much sense now.

By the time the Rookie Contract is finished and the guy is in his prime - he'll be too expensive to keep without "shorting" the rest of your defense or other parts of your offense.

L.B.

jj28west
10-15-2009, 05:44 AM
I guess one theory I had is with a shutdown corner the support that would have normally rolled over and support the CB would now be able to help with the TE or cheat up closer on the line.

I see what your saying with fortifying the line over the corner to decrease the QB's time in releasing. I guess I was looking at it the other way around. Would you necessarily need a great DE that would comand a high salary because with an all world corner you may end up having more coverage sacks. In what we run @ Pittsburgh I know so much more is asked of our guys like taking on two tackes, creating gaps, stopping the run so maybe this example would not be applicable to the Steelers.

I cant remember who it was but there was a really high price DE that got credit for a high number of sacks, went into free agency with a great looiking resume and then laid a goose egg the following year with a team that was weak at the corner position.

BURGH86STEEL
10-15-2009, 06:29 AM
The days of true shutdown corners are over because of all the rules against "touching" WR's. When going against top receivers you're always going to need at least double coverage.

You try to go man on man for any extended period of time against the likes of a player like Calvin Johnson and you're going to get beat repeatedly.

Even Darrell Revis got embarrassed by Ted Ginn Jr., when he doesn't get safety help over the top.

Elite pass rushers are the best way to go to shut down top QB's and #1 receivers, IMHO...

I agree.

JTP53609
10-15-2009, 07:36 AM
the lose of smith hurts and it will hurt all year long, he is so valuable....

Oviedo
10-15-2009, 07:59 AM
The days of true shutdown corners are over because of all the rules against "touching" WR's. When going against top receivers you're always going to need at least double coverage.

You try to go man on man for any extended period of time against the likes of a player like Calvin Johnson and you're going to get beat repeatedly.

Even Darrell Revis got embarrassed by Ted Ginn Jr., when he doesn't get safety help over the top.

Elite pass rushers are the best way to go to shut down top QB's and #1 receivers, IMHO...

Amen. Defense starts and ends with pressuring the QB. The QB is the most importnat person on the field and you have to attack him. If he is on his back or getting chased it is easy to be the mythical "shutdown cornerback."

ikestops85
10-15-2009, 11:51 AM
The days of true shutdown corners are over because of all the rules against "touching" WR's. When going against top receivers you're always going to need at least double coverage.

You try to go man on man for any extended period of time against the likes of a player like Calvin Johnson and you're going to get beat repeatedly.

Even Darrell Revis got embarrassed by Ted Ginn Jr., when he doesn't get safety help over the top.

Elite pass rushers are the best way to go to shut down top QB's and #1 receivers, IMHO...

Jom, I gotta agree with you 1000%. Our d-backs looked so much better last year because we put consistent pressure on the QB. We aren't doing that this year and people are starting to blame the d-backs. Sorry, they are playing just like last year (with the exception of Troy) but we aren't getting the pressure like we did. When we get the pressure the QB has to make a quick decision, hit a short hot route or throw a bad pass and our d-backs would either have the play in front of them and make the tackle or be the beneficiary of the bad pass and pick it off. It all works because of the pressure. If you don't get it almost every NFL QB will rip you apart.

RuthlessBurgher
10-15-2009, 12:18 PM
If you want to improve the performance of the D-backs, instead of focusing on generating a pass rush, I would focus on better starting pitching instead. :P

http://www.artesianews.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/090630-1145-copyright2009-artesiadailypress-090630-dbacks-sfw-546x550-a816h.jpg