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meninblack
09-29-2009, 01:05 AM
This is the worst offensive scheme since Joe Walton was our offensive co-ordinator. Passive running game with no fullback and carry back hand offs with the ball being presented to the back (and the defense) like a Thanksgiving Turkey. Pass plays that seem to be drawn up in the huddle.

Everyone get open on two! I'll run around for a while and find you!

Soft, vanilla zone crap defense in crunch time. The zone blitzes are nowhere to be found.

We better decide to be the agressors on both sides of the ball or we are in for a LOONNNG season. I wish I hadn't watched that fourth quarter, it ruined a great weekend for me.

BradshawsHairdresser
09-29-2009, 11:37 AM
Sounds like you're saying not only Bruce but also LeBeau. And if he doesn't get his act together soon, I agree.

Djfan
09-29-2009, 11:53 AM
Sounds like you're saying not only Bruce but also LeBeau. And if he doesn't get his act together soon, I agree.

The difference is that LeBeau has been consistanly good or great, whereas BA has been consistanly lame and under impressive. One has to tweak a thing or two. The other has proven lameness.

sd steel
09-29-2009, 11:54 AM
If Reed makes 2 kicks and Holmes and Sweed catch 2 or 3 passes we are easily 3-0. It's execution.....but let's fire the coaching staff.

That makes sense. Have the coaches made some bad calls? Yep, but we have been in the position to win every game if the players execute.

aggiebones
09-29-2009, 11:59 AM
They won the Super Bowl last year. Most teams suffer some headaches after they win. Hell Burress shot himself over it. In time they will correct some of this stuff. If not, we'll have ti survive with only 2 SBs in 5 years. So sad.
Put your knees back in position.

Djfan
09-29-2009, 12:15 PM
If Reed makes 2 kicks and Holmes and Sweed catch 2 or 3 passes we are easily 3-0. It's execution.....but let's fire the coaching staff.

That makes sense. Have the coaches made some bad calls? Yep, but we have been in the position to win every game if the players execute.

Hey SD. Good to see you back.

I doubt you and I will ever agree on this issue. I just think that when you're trying to win a game that you owned all game, you don't run a guy who has shown that his weakness is running up the gut. Particularly when the opponent has 7-8 stacked on the line, because they know you're going to run. But to do it twice in a row? This is just lame, junior college coaching. No excuse. He sucks.

BradshawsHairdresser
09-29-2009, 12:17 PM
If Reed makes 2 kicks and Holmes and Sweed catch 2 or 3 passes we are easily 3-0. It's execution.....but let's fire the coaching staff.

That makes sense. Have the coaches made some bad calls? Yep, but we have been in the position to win every game if the players execute.

Those games should not have come down to Reed's 2 kicks and Sweed's 2 catches.
This team lacks a killer instinct. Both Chicago and Cincinnati should have been put away long before the final minute. But in both cases, because of poor playcalling on both offense and defense, we let those teams come back and win. Yes, there have been lapses in execution. But the coaching has been bad, and it's the coaching that will turn around this Super Bowl hangover.

sd steel
09-29-2009, 12:34 PM
If Reed makes 2 kicks and Holmes and Sweed catch 2 or 3 passes we are easily 3-0. It's execution.....but let's fire the coaching staff.

That makes sense. Have the coaches made some bad calls? Yep, but we have been in the position to win every game if the players execute.

Those games should not have come down to Reed's 2 kicks and Sweed's 2 catches.
This team lacks a killer instinct. Both Chicago and Cincinnati should have been put away long before the final minute. But in both cases, because of poor playcalling on both offense and defense, we let those teams come back and win. Yes, there have been lapses in execution. But the coaching has been bad, and it's the coaching that will turn around this Super Bowl hangover.

I just think second guessing coaching decisions is an iffy proposition at best. We don't have all the info, we don't know player responsibilities, we don't know if the other team threw a curve to screw up the play. I have a hard time faulting a coach because they aren't playing. Are they calling plays and running schemes that they don't think will work? I doubt it. The plays are called based on the study of the opponent, and with the thought that if our players execute it will be successful, and they have been practiced all week.

Now players dropping balls, missing tackles, missing blocks,fumbling and missing kicks, is something that can be addressed objectively. Coaching can not, because we don't have enough information.

JTP53609
09-29-2009, 01:46 PM
we already let go of one bruce this year (davis), i dont think it is the steeler way to let go of 2

papillon
09-29-2009, 02:57 PM
[quote="sd steel":3cajweqh]If Reed makes 2 kicks and Holmes and Sweed catch 2 or 3 passes we are easily 3-0. It's execution.....but let's fire the coaching staff.

That makes sense. Have the coaches made some bad calls? Yep, but we have been in the position to win every game if the players execute.

Those games should not have come down to Reed's 2 kicks and Sweed's 2 catches.
This team lacks a killer instinct. Both Chicago and Cincinnati should have been put away long before the final minute. But in both cases, because of poor playcalling on both offense and defense, we let those teams come back and win. Yes, there have been lapses in execution. But the coaching has been bad, and it's the coaching that will turn around this Super Bowl hangover.

I just think second guessing coaching decisions is an iffy proposition at best. We don't have all the info, we don't know player responsibilities, we don't know if the other team threw a curve to screw up the play. I have a hard time faulting a coach because they aren't playing. Are they calling plays and running schemes that they don't think will work? I doubt it. The plays are called based on the study of the opponent, and with the thought that if our players execute it will be successful, and they have been practiced all week.

Now players dropping balls, missing tackles, missing blocks,fumbling and missing kicks, is something that can be addressed objectively. Coaching can not, because we don't have enough information.[/quote:3cajweqh]

I agree 100% when you try to evaluate one play and determine who screwed up. It's the body of work throughout the game that we are able to evaluate and make some pretty good determinations. Take the Bengal game, the offense moves the ball well in the first half and has 13 points on the board. The MO of the first half was pass on first down (6 out of 8 times) and balance in the run to make the defense play honest. Except for a few missed plays the score could be much worse, but, regardless, the Steelers are winning 13-3.

Now, look at the second half and the first down plays and you see that the Steelers ran the ball rather than passing to set up the run. IT was clear they were trying to milk the clock and close out the game. The Bengals picked up on it and shut down the offense.

The coaching staff has to get some of the blame to change from what was working to what is not working. The Bengals were a beaten team at halftime and save for a bad decision to go for a 4th and 4 from the 35, it probably would have been 13-0.

Certainly, execution comes into play, but, I believe there's enough evidence to aim some criticism directly at the coaching staff.

Pappy

steelsnis
09-29-2009, 03:05 PM
I just think second guessing coaching decisions is an iffy proposition at best. We don't have all the info, we don't know player responsibilities, we don't know if the other team threw a curve to screw up the play. I have a hard time faulting a coach because they aren't playing. Are they calling plays and running schemes that they don't think will work? I doubt it. The plays are called based on the study of the opponent, and with the thought that if our players execute it will be successful, and they have been practiced all week.

Now players dropping balls, missing tackles, missing blocks,fumbling and missing kicks, is something that can be addressed objectively. Coaching can not, because we don't have enough information.

There you go, making sense again. How dare you! :D

sd steel
09-29-2009, 03:36 PM
[quote="sd steel":2svmp8qn]If Reed makes 2 kicks and Holmes and Sweed catch 2 or 3 passes we are easily 3-0. It's execution.....but let's fire the coaching staff.

That makes sense. Have the coaches made some bad calls? Yep, but we have been in the position to win every game if the players execute.

Those games should not have come down to Reed's 2 kicks and Sweed's 2 catches.
This team lacks a killer instinct. Both Chicago and Cincinnati should have been put away long before the final minute. But in both cases, because of poor playcalling on both offense and defense, we let those teams come back and win. Yes, there have been lapses in execution. But the coaching has been bad, and it's the coaching that will turn around this Super Bowl hangover.

I just think second guessing coaching decisions is an iffy proposition at best. We don't have all the info, we don't know player responsibilities, we don't know if the other team threw a curve to screw up the play. I have a hard time faulting a coach because they aren't playing. Are they calling plays and running schemes that they don't think will work? I doubt it. The plays are called based on the study of the opponent, and with the thought that if our players execute it will be successful, and they have been practiced all week.

Now players dropping balls, missing tackles, missing blocks,fumbling and missing kicks, is something that can be addressed objectively. Coaching can not, because we don't have enough information.

I agree 100% when you try to evaluate one play and determine who screwed up. It's the body of work throughout the game that we are able to evaluate and make some pretty good determinations. Take the Bengal game, the offense moves the ball well in the first half and has 13 points on the board. The MO of the first half was pass on first down (6 out of 8 times) and balance in the run to make the defense play honest. Except for a few missed plays the score could be much worse, but, regardless, the Steelers are winning 13-3.

Now, look at the second half and the first down plays and you see that the Steelers ran the ball rather than passing to set up the run. IT was clear they were trying to milk the clock and close out the game. The Bengals picked up on it and shut down the offense.

The coaching staff has to get some of the blame to change from what was working to what is not working. The Bengals were a beaten team at halftime and save for a bad decision to go for a 4th and 4 from the 35, it probably would have been 13-0.

Certainly, execution comes into play, but, I believe there's enough evidence to aim some criticism directly at the coaching staff.

Pappy[/quote:2svmp8qn]


You can aim as much criticism as you like towards the coaching staff, but it is based on pure assumption. Why don't we just blame Tomlin, how do you know he didn't tell Arians to go Turtle? And why not blame Management and the Rooney's? Who's to say that they didn't tell Tomlin that they wanted old Steeler football back, so take the air out of the football? Or blame the NFL maybe the game was fixed to created more parity and they need the Bengals and Browns to look more competitive this to sell more seats etc etc. The point is, being critical when you don't really know who is ultimately responsible leads to alot of BS and conjecture. I can blame the guy who dropped the ball or missed the kick.

BURGH86STEEL
09-29-2009, 05:16 PM
[quote="sd steel":a5b2tmih]If Reed makes 2 kicks and Holmes and Sweed catch 2 or 3 passes we are easily 3-0. It's execution.....but let's fire the coaching staff.

That makes sense. Have the coaches made some bad calls? Yep, but we have been in the position to win every game if the players execute.

Those games should not have come down to Reed's 2 kicks and Sweed's 2 catches.
This team lacks a killer instinct. Both Chicago and Cincinnati should have been put away long before the final minute. But in both cases, because of poor playcalling on both offense and defense, we let those teams come back and win. Yes, there have been lapses in execution. But the coaching has been bad, and it's the coaching that will turn around this Super Bowl hangover.

I just think second guessing coaching decisions is an iffy proposition at best. We don't have all the info, we don't know player responsibilities, we don't know if the other team threw a curve to screw up the play. I have a hard time faulting a coach because they aren't playing. Are they calling plays and running schemes that they don't think will work? I doubt it. The plays are called based on the study of the opponent, and with the thought that if our players execute it will be successful, and they have been practiced all week.

Now players dropping balls, missing tackles, missing blocks,fumbling and missing kicks, is something that can be addressed objectively. Coaching can not, because we don't have enough information.[/quote:a5b2tmih]

I agree.

BURGH86STEEL
09-29-2009, 05:57 PM
[quote="sd steel":3oqkxj10]If Reed makes 2 kicks and Holmes and Sweed catch 2 or 3 passes we are easily 3-0. It's execution.....but let's fire the coaching staff.

That makes sense. Have the coaches made some bad calls? Yep, but we have been in the position to win every game if the players execute.

Those games should not have come down to Reed's 2 kicks and Sweed's 2 catches.
This team lacks a killer instinct. Both Chicago and Cincinnati should have been put away long before the final minute. But in both cases, because of poor playcalling on both offense and defense, we let those teams come back and win. Yes, there have been lapses in execution. But the coaching has been bad, and it's the coaching that will turn around this Super Bowl hangover.

I just think second guessing coaching decisions is an iffy proposition at best. We don't have all the info, we don't know player responsibilities, we don't know if the other team threw a curve to screw up the play. I have a hard time faulting a coach because they aren't playing. Are they calling plays and running schemes that they don't think will work? I doubt it. The plays are called based on the study of the opponent, and with the thought that if our players execute it will be successful, and they have been practiced all week.

Now players dropping balls, missing tackles, missing blocks,fumbling and missing kicks, is something that can be addressed objectively. Coaching can not, because we don't have enough information.

I agree 100% when you try to evaluate one play and determine who screwed up. It's the body of work throughout the game that we are able to evaluate and make some pretty good determinations. Take the Bengal game, the offense moves the ball well in the first half and has 13 points on the board. The MO of the first half was pass on first down (6 out of 8 times) and balance in the run to make the defense play honest. Except for a few missed plays the score could be much worse, but, regardless, the Steelers are winning 13-3.

Now, look at the second half and the first down plays and you see that the Steelers ran the ball rather than passing to set up the run. IT was clear they were trying to milk the clock and close out the game. The Bengals picked up on it and shut down the offense.

The coaching staff has to get some of the blame to change from what was working to what is not working. The Bengals were a beaten team at halftime and save for a bad decision to go for a 4th and 4 from the 35, it probably would have been 13-0.

Certainly, execution comes into play, but, I believe there's enough evidence to aim some criticism directly at the coaching staff.

Pappy[/quote:3oqkxj10]

The first drive they scored, they ran and passed on first down. Actually, they ran more on first down. Ran 5 times, passed 6 times. Not sure if one set up the other. That's a pretty good balance. I am pretty sure the players executed well on that drive.

Their second possession, they ran 4 and passed 4 times. Pretty balanced. Not sure if one set up the other.

3rd possession, they came out running again. Before the 2 minute warning, they ran 4 times and passed 3 times. After the 2 minute warning, they passed twice and ran once out of the shotgun. They passed more in the 2 minute situation for obvious reasons.

If you take a look at what happened in the first half, I am not so sure they used the pass to set up the run or visa versa. The players executed much better in the first half.

BURGH86STEEL
09-29-2009, 06:16 PM
[quote=BradshawsHairdresser][quote="sd steel":1kc96m2u]If Reed makes 2 kicks and Holmes and Sweed catch 2 or 3 passes we are easily 3-0. It's execution.....but let's fire the coaching staff.

That makes sense. Have the coaches made some bad calls? Yep, but we have been in the position to win every game if the players execute.

Those games should not have come down to Reed's 2 kicks and Sweed's 2 catches.
This team lacks a killer instinct. Both Chicago and Cincinnati should have been put away long before the final minute. But in both cases, because of poor playcalling on both offense and defense, we let those teams come back and win. Yes, there have been lapses in execution. But the coaching has been bad, and it's the coaching that will turn around this Super Bowl hangover.

I just think second guessing coaching decisions is an iffy proposition at best. We don't have all the info, we don't know player responsibilities, we don't know if the other team threw a curve to screw up the play. I have a hard time faulting a coach because they aren't playing. Are they calling plays and running schemes that they don't think will work? I doubt it. The plays are called based on the study of the opponent, and with the thought that if our players execute it will be successful, and they have been practiced all week.

Now players dropping balls, missing tackles, missing blocks,fumbling and missing kicks, is something that can be addressed objectively. Coaching can not, because we don't have enough information.

I agree 100% when you try to evaluate one play and determine who screwed up. It's the body of work throughout the game that we are able to evaluate and make some pretty good determinations. Take the Bengal game, the offense moves the ball well in the first half and has 13 points on the board. The MO of the first half was pass on first down (6 out of 8 times) and balance in the run to make the defense play honest. Except for a few missed plays the score could be much worse, but, regardless, the Steelers are winning 13-3.

Now, look at the second half and the first down plays and you see that the Steelers ran the ball rather than passing to set up the run. IT was clear they were trying to milk the clock and close out the game. The Bengals picked up on it and shut down the offense.

The coaching staff has to get some of the blame to change from what was working to what is not working. The Bengals were a beaten team at halftime and save for a bad decision to go for a 4th and 4 from the 35, it probably would have been 13-0.

Certainly, execution comes into play, but, I believe there's enough evidence to aim some criticism directly at the coaching staff.

Pappy[/quote:1kc96m2u]


You can aim as much criticism as you like towards the coaching staff, but it is based on pure assumption. Why don't we just blame Tomlin, how do you know he didn't tell Arians to go Turtle? And why not blame Management and the Rooney's? Who's to say that they didn't tell Tomlin that they wanted old Steeler football back, so take the air out of the football? Or blame the NFL maybe the game was fixed to created more parity and they need the Bengals and Browns to look more competitive this to sell more seats etc etc. The point is, being critical when you don't really know who is ultimately responsible leads to alot of BS and conjecture. I can blame the guy who dropped the ball or missed the kick.[/quote:1kc96m2u]

I am with you on this one. It is easy for fans to disagree with the play calling. They always have and they always will. I've seen it with every Steelers OC.

They came out throwing 3 straight times in the 2nd half. There was a miscommunication between the QB and WR. Bengals return that miscommunication for a TD to get back in the game. Does coming out throwing 3 straight times mean they went into turtle ball?

The next series they ran, pass, pass, missed FG. Does passing twice mean turtle ball?

The next series they mixed in the run and pass. Does mixing the run and pass mean turtle ball?

It is clear to me that they mixed the run and the pass all game long. I don't know why I waste my time with this because people are going to see what they want.

feltdizz
09-29-2009, 06:30 PM
you cannot blame Arians for these last 2 losses. How many points do we have to score to win games? Every screams turtle ball but the INT for a TD was not Arians fault.

Stop taking the easy way out and blame the players for this one. Holmes screwed up..
the 4th and 4 was stupid but we were crushing Cincy up to that point...

then Lebeau goes into his spectacular 2 minute prevent D. The 7 yard cushion on 3rd and 1 isn't working.. Carter is slow and is only good for tackling after the catch.

As much as we hate to admit it with out Troy our defense is pretty average... think back to the Titans game and how many times Troy's name was called in the first half.

Not having Troy is like not having Ben on offense.. I feel stupid that I actually thought Harrison was the anchor of our D last year...

stlrz d
09-29-2009, 08:21 PM
*shakes head*

Why oh why is it so difficult for some people to understand situational play calling?

In the 4th effing quarter with over 8 minutes left on the clock we went turtle ball against a Bengals defense that stacked the LOS to stop the run...and we ran it anyway.

We had the ball for exactly two possessions in the 4th. We were clinging to a 5 point lead with a lot of time left.

run (3 yards)
run (no gain)
pass (3rd and 7, 6 yards gained)
punt

run (no gain)
pass (9 yards)
run (Ben for 2, 1st down)
run (3 yards)
run (1 yard)
pass (3rd and 6, sack for -5 yards)
punt

We never saw the ball again. Unacceptable.

Chucktownsteeler
09-29-2009, 08:32 PM
The sooner the better.

I have no love for this guy and he is doing more harm than good. If my memory is correct this dolt couldn't hold the lead when he was with the browns either.

Weren't they up on us in the play-offs 30-something to 9 and with the help of Fu we came back and beat them.

Yes, we starts games out good because he scripts the first twenty or so plays out but then the rest of the game he is clueless.

The sooner he is shown the door the better.

Chcuktown

:2c

BURGH86STEEL
09-29-2009, 09:37 PM
*shakes head*

Why oh why is it so difficult for some people to understand situational play calling?

In the 4th effing quarter with over 8 minutes left on the clock we went turtle ball against a Bengals defense that stacked the LOS to stop the run...and we ran it anyway.

We had the ball for exactly two possessions in the 4th. We were clinging to a 5 point lead with a lot of time left.

run (3 yards)
run (no gain)
pass (3rd and 7, 6 yards gained)
punt

run (no gain)
pass (9 yards)
run (Ben for 2, 1st down)
run (3 yards)
run (1 yard)
pass (3rd and 6, sack for -5 yards)
punt

We never saw the ball again. Unacceptable.

Situational execution is so much better. So much easier for fans to disagree after the play. After the play, when the players don't execute.

If they passed in that situation, some fans will scream they should had run to take time off the clock. When they ran in that situation, fans scream they went into turtle ball. When the players don't execute in both those situations, fans can go either way. Get my point? I've seen it happen to many times with fans when the plays don't work out. No one ever agrees 100% of the time when the players don't execute.

What I saw on the plays in which you refer is the players lack of execution. They missed blocks. Do you believe that Ben had the authority to audible if he saw 8 men in the box?

Why do you believe the Bengals got the job done when the defense knew they had to pass? Was it their ability to execute or their ability to call the right plays in the right situations?

Djfan
09-29-2009, 09:38 PM
*shakes head*

Why oh why is it so difficult for some people to understand situational play calling?

In the 4th effing quarter with over 8 minutes left on the clock we went turtle ball against a Bengals defense that stacked the LOS to stop the run...and we ran it anyway.

We had the ball for exactly two possessions in the 4th. We were clinging to a 5 point lead with a lot of time left.

run (3 yards)
run (no gain)
pass (3rd and 7, 6 yards gained)
punt

run (no gain)
pass (9 yards)
run (Ben for 2, 1st down)
run (3 yards)
run (1 yard)
pass (3rd and 6, sack for -5 yards)
punt

We never saw the ball again. Unacceptable.

Well said Sir. The fact is that we have other plays to adjust to when the line is stacked, but didn't. Someone bears that responisbility.

stlrz d
09-29-2009, 09:43 PM
I give up. You're right. The coaches have zero culpability in all of this. It's all on the players and none of it falls on the coaches. They were perfect...the players weren't.

Happy now?

:roll:

I didn't think one had to be a genius to look at the circumstances and the plays called to figure out where there was an issue, but apparently one does. And because some fans are reactionary and incorrect in their rants that means no one can give an objective opinion of the perceived poor situational play calling by the coaches...because it's always, always, always execution and never, never, never the fault of the coaches.

Sure glad I know that now. :roll:

pfelix73
09-29-2009, 10:22 PM
Personally, I think "The easy way out" like someone put it, is to blame the players.

Sure the players are blame for not executing, however, the coaches are the ones who have to put the players in position to try and win the game in the 1st place. The drop by Sweed was inexcusable, but so were some of calls made by the coaching staff. I'd give the entire staff a grade of D- for that game. Starting with the main man.

No one can argue the fact, that what happened in the 4th quarter was ridiculous, and it played an important part in the outcome of the game. There were many important parts of that game and the Bears game, but the play-calling is at times atrocious. To give the ball back to Cincy while just playing conservatively with 12 minutes to go was insane!

BA has a record throughout his coaching history of making some big mistakes, etc. This guy is from my home town, so I do know a bit about him and his past. Still trying to figure out how he transitioned from college to the NFL.

I never liked him in the role as OC with the Steelers and his 1 back 2 TE formations he loves so much.

Anyway, he's the chosen one and gets paid for his profession, so we must live with it. We do, however, have the right to complain, etc and discuss his bad decisions here.

I predict we'll have a big night against the Bolts on national TV, folks. So, things will get better for the black and gold.... in spite of BA's play calling....

:tt1

papillon
09-29-2009, 10:29 PM
[quote=BradshawsHairdresser][quote="sd steel":kxqgd3l3]If Reed makes 2 kicks and Holmes and Sweed catch 2 or 3 passes we are easily 3-0. It's execution.....but let's fire the coaching staff.

That makes sense. Have the coaches made some bad calls? Yep, but we have been in the position to win every game if the players execute.

Those games should not have come down to Reed's 2 kicks and Sweed's 2 catches.
This team lacks a killer instinct. Both Chicago and Cincinnati should have been put away long before the final minute. But in both cases, because of poor playcalling on both offense and defense, we let those teams come back and win. Yes, there have been lapses in execution. But the coaching has been bad, and it's the coaching that will turn around this Super Bowl hangover.

I just think second guessing coaching decisions is an iffy proposition at best. We don't have all the info, we don't know player responsibilities, we don't know if the other team threw a curve to screw up the play. I have a hard time faulting a coach because they aren't playing. Are they calling plays and running schemes that they don't think will work? I doubt it. The plays are called based on the study of the opponent, and with the thought that if our players execute it will be successful, and they have been practiced all week.

Now players dropping balls, missing tackles, missing blocks,fumbling and missing kicks, is something that can be addressed objectively. Coaching can not, because we don't have enough information.

I agree 100% when you try to evaluate one play and determine who screwed up. It's the body of work throughout the game that we are able to evaluate and make some pretty good determinations. Take the Bengal game, the offense moves the ball well in the first half and has 13 points on the board. The MO of the first half was pass on first down (6 out of 8 times) and balance in the run to make the defense play honest. Except for a few missed plays the score could be much worse, but, regardless, the Steelers are winning 13-3.

Now, look at the second half and the first down plays and you see that the Steelers ran the ball rather than passing to set up the run. IT was clear they were trying to milk the clock and close out the game. The Bengals picked up on it and shut down the offense.

The coaching staff has to get some of the blame to change from what was working to what is not working. The Bengals were a beaten team at halftime and save for a bad decision to go for a 4th and 4 from the 35, it probably would have been 13-0.

Certainly, execution comes into play, but, I believe there's enough evidence to aim some criticism directly at the coaching staff.

Pappy[/quote:kxqgd3l3]


You can aim as much criticism as you like towards the coaching staff, but it is based on pure assumption. Why don't we just blame Tomlin, how do you know he didn't tell Arians to go Turtle? And why not blame Management and the Rooney's? Who's to say that they didn't tell Tomlin that they wanted old Steeler football back, so take the air out of the football? Or blame the NFL maybe the game was fixed to created more parity and they need the Bengals and Browns to look more competitive this to sell more seats etc etc. The point is, being critical when you don't really know who is ultimately responsible leads to alot of BS and conjecture. I can blame the guy who dropped the ball or missed the kick.[/quote:kxqgd3l3]

Okay, first off, Tomlin is part of the coaching and as a matter of fact he's the CEO of the staff, so, he certainly can't pass the buck. His in game decisions were questionabale at best at times.

Unless, you've just started following the Steelers in the past 6 months you certainly know that the front office and the Rooneys do their part after the season to evaluate talent and work the draft and get people signed. They have absolutely nothing to do with game day other than watch like the rest of us.

You're right we don't know who was responsible and my previous post stated as much laying blame in execution, but not giving the coaching staff a free pass either. If you believe that the coaching staff had absolutely nothing to do with this performance, that's fine, but you weren't watching closely then.

Pappy

papillon
09-29-2009, 10:35 PM
[quote="sd steel":3dmh2azy]If Reed makes 2 kicks and Holmes and Sweed catch 2 or 3 passes we are easily 3-0. It's execution.....but let's fire the coaching staff.

That makes sense. Have the coaches made some bad calls? Yep, but we have been in the position to win every game if the players execute.

Those games should not have come down to Reed's 2 kicks and Sweed's 2 catches.
This team lacks a killer instinct. Both Chicago and Cincinnati should have been put away long before the final minute. But in both cases, because of poor playcalling on both offense and defense, we let those teams come back and win. Yes, there have been lapses in execution. But the coaching has been bad, and it's the coaching that will turn around this Super Bowl hangover.

I just think second guessing coaching decisions is an iffy proposition at best. We don't have all the info, we don't know player responsibilities, we don't know if the other team threw a curve to screw up the play. I have a hard time faulting a coach because they aren't playing. Are they calling plays and running schemes that they don't think will work? I doubt it. The plays are called based on the study of the opponent, and with the thought that if our players execute it will be successful, and they have been practiced all week.

Now players dropping balls, missing tackles, missing blocks,fumbling and missing kicks, is something that can be addressed objectively. Coaching can not, because we don't have enough information.

I agree 100% when you try to evaluate one play and determine who screwed up. It's the body of work throughout the game that we are able to evaluate and make some pretty good determinations. Take the Bengal game, the offense moves the ball well in the first half and has 13 points on the board. The MO of the first half was pass on first down (6 out of 8 times) and balance in the run to make the defense play honest. Except for a few missed plays the score could be much worse, but, regardless, the Steelers are winning 13-3.

Now, look at the second half and the first down plays and you see that the Steelers ran the ball rather than passing to set up the run. IT was clear they were trying to milk the clock and close out the game. The Bengals picked up on it and shut down the offense.

The coaching staff has to get some of the blame to change from what was working to what is not working. The Bengals were a beaten team at halftime and save for a bad decision to go for a 4th and 4 from the 35, it probably would have been 13-0.

Certainly, execution comes into play, but, I believe there's enough evidence to aim some criticism directly at the coaching staff.

Pappy

The first drive they scored, they ran and passed on first down. Actually, they ran more on first down. Ran 5 times, passed 6 times. Not sure if one set up the other. That's a pretty good balance. I am pretty sure the players executed well on that drive.

Their second possession, they ran 4 and passed 4 times. Pretty balanced. Not sure if one set up the other.

3rd possession, they came out running again. Before the 2 minute warning, they ran 4 times and passed 3 times. After the 2 minute warning, they passed twice and ran once out of the shotgun. They passed more in the 2 minute situation for obvious reasons.

If you take a look at what happened in the first half, I am not so sure they used the pass to set up the run or visa versa. The players executed much better in the first half.[/quote:3dmh2azy]

That's exactly right, they were balanced, I'll admit I used a poor choice of words in stating the pass set up the run. The offense was balanced and this had the defense off-balance. The second half they believed that Jerome Bettis came out of retirement and was in the backfield and tried milking the clock and taking the air out of the ball by running 75% of the time on first down. This put them in 2nd and long each time and the offense failed to move the ball enough to take time off the clock. It was a bad idea Sunday and it's a bad idea today.

I have no axe to grind with the coaching staff. I like Mike Tomlin and Lebeau, if Arians stays that's fine with me and if he goes that's fine with me,I'm indifferent to him as a coach. The Steelers played poorly as a team and that includes the coaches.

Pappy

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
09-29-2009, 10:56 PM
Sounds like you're saying not only Bruce but also LeBeau. And if he doesn't get his act together soon, I agree.

The difference is that LeBeau has been consistanly good or great, whereas BA has been consistanly lame and under impressive. One has to tweak a thing or two. The other has proven lameness.

Another way to look at it is that Arians is doing his job the same way he did last year when he won the SB. Lebeau, on the other hand, seems to be regressing. Maybe Arians and his SB caliber O should stay, and Lebeau has to go. :stirpot :wink:

Djfan
09-29-2009, 11:01 PM
Another way to look at it is that Arians is doing his job the same way he did last year when he won the SB. Lebeau, on the other hand, seems to be regressing. Maybe Arians and his SB caliber O should stay, and Lebeau has to go. :stirpot :wink:

Fair enough.

But, BA's job last year sucked, so he still sucks.

LeBeau was super human last year, so he has regressed to mere mortality.

BA has to go.

BURGH86STEEL
09-30-2009, 05:48 AM
I give up. You're right. The coaches have zero culpability in all of this. It's all on the players and none of it falls on the coaches. They were perfect...the players weren't.

Happy now?

:roll:

I didn't think one had to be a genius to look at the circumstances and the plays called to figure out where there was an issue, but apparently one does. And because some fans are reactionary and incorrect in their rants that means no one can give an objective opinion of the perceived poor situational play calling by the coaches...because it's always, always, always execution and never, never, never the fault of the coaches.

Sure glad I know that now. :roll:

I never said they have zero culpability. My stance has been that it was a complete team loss. IMO, most of the blame falls on the players for not executing against Cincy. The plays were there to be made on more then one occasion.

I'll ask these again:

Do you believe that Ben had the authority to audible if he saw 8 men in the box?

Why do you believe the Bengals got the job done when the defense knew they had to pass?

Mister Pittsburgh
09-30-2009, 07:24 AM
In time they will correct some of this stuff.

My problem is a lot of the struggles on offense are the same as last season so either they can't identify the short yardage, red zone, goal line issues, or they are too stupid to try anything different. Once again we saw Willie Parker in the goal line offense try and score from the 4 yard line or so with no lead blocker. Actually this past weekend the lead blocker was a decoy. I think we saw this same play, Willie Parker to the left, about 5 times last season, get stuffed time and time again.

Arians blows in this regard. He obviously has come up with no answers to fix this problem.

frankthetank1
09-30-2009, 07:26 AM
why not blame everyone? i do, well everyone except for ben and the o-line because the last two weeks they have been doing their job. arians play calling in the second half was very cowheresk. i thought turtle ball was behind us? the soft zone in the last two mins killed the steelers. no one on defense made a play when a play needed to be made. they havent been putting any pressure on the qb and you wont stop anyone without presure. holmes has had his head up his a$$ the last two weeks and sweed cant catch a cold. up until the bengals game in the 2nd half i havent had much problems with BA's playcalling, but that definetly contributed to the loss.

Mister Pittsburgh
09-30-2009, 08:04 AM
*shakes head*

Why oh why is it so difficult for some people to understand situational play calling?

In the 4th effing quarter with over 8 minutes left on the clock we went turtle ball against a Bengals defense that stacked the LOS to stop the run...and we ran it anyway.

We had the ball for exactly two possessions in the 4th. We were clinging to a 5 point lead with a lot of time left.

run (3 yards)
run (no gain)
pass (3rd and 7, 6 yards gained)
punt

run (no gain)
pass (9 yards)
run (Ben for 2, 1st down)
run (3 yards)
run (1 yard)
pass (3rd and 6, sack for -5 yards)
punt

We never saw the ball again. Unacceptable.
:Agree

Its the coaches job to put the players in a position to utilize their greatest skills. Our line absolutely sucks at run blocking. All of our money is invested in a QB, WR, and TE on offense yet we turtle up and instead of attacking a teams weakness we go right at their strength.

Perfect example of this is the AFCCG last year. Baltimore had everyone in the front 7 healthy and everyone in their secondary was a backup or first year player....we attack the secondary in the first half and should have been up by about 4 TD's. In the second half we come out and run our 200lb injury riddled RB right at Ray Lewis instead of attacking their secondary once again. What did this do? It let the Ravens hang around for the entire second half where if they get one TD they are up on us. It takes Troy picking off a pass with like 4 or 5 minutes left to put the game away where we could have done that in the 3rd Qtr.

If we lose that game, Arians is gone. We won however due to the D bailing us out again...bailing Arians out again.

And the people constantly preaching 'execution'....is it execution problems that we are having in goal line situations where we run Willie Parker to the left and get stuffed like we did a dozen times last year and it didn't work...or is it that Bruce Arians is a total jagoff that is about as creative in drawing up plays as my 4 year old daughter is.

Lets see...we have 4 great to solid WR in Hines, Holmes, Wallace, McDonald....we have one of the best TE in the game in Heath, we have a 6'7" TE in Spaeth that we never try a jump ball to....we have a 6'4" WR in Sweed that we never try a jump ball or fade pass to....our QB loves to be out of the pocket running around yet we have tried zero designed bootlegs to this point.......our QB ran a spead em out no huddle from the shotgun type offense in college and we have all these weapons to catch the ball including a great back for catching passes in Moore....yet we don't go no huddle much at all......hmmmmmmm.....sounds like Arians is a total blowhard.

Djfan
09-30-2009, 08:47 AM
Lets see...we have 4 great to solid WR in Hines, Holmes, Wallace, McDonald....we have one of the best TE in the game in Heath, we have a 6'7" TE in Spaeth that we never try a jump ball to....we have a 6'4" WR in Sweed that we never try a jump ball or fade pass to....our QB loves to be out of the pocket running around yet we have tried zero designed bootlegs to this point.......our QB ran a spead em out no huddle from the shotgun type offense in college and we have all these weapons to catch the ball including a great back for catching passes in Moore....yet we don't go no huddle much at all......hmmmmmmm.....sounds like Arians is a total blowhard.

There is just no football arguement against this. My grandma would be more creative than this.

stlrz d
09-30-2009, 10:48 AM
I give up. You're right. The coaches have zero culpability in all of this. It's all on the players and none of it falls on the coaches. They were perfect...the players weren't.

Happy now?

:roll:

I didn't think one had to be a genius to look at the circumstances and the plays called to figure out where there was an issue, but apparently one does. And because some fans are reactionary and incorrect in their rants that means no one can give an objective opinion of the perceived poor situational play calling by the coaches...because it's always, always, always execution and never, never, never the fault of the coaches.

Sure glad I know that now. :roll:

I never said they have zero culpability. My stance has been that it was a complete team loss. IMO, most of the blame falls on the players for not executing against Cincy. The plays were there to be made on more then one occasion.

And that's where we disagree...situationally speaking of course. Of course the players are to blame for lack of execution (missed FG, dropped passes, missed tackles, etc) but when we have a lead and there is still a lot of time on the clock and you know you don't have a running game that can kill the clock and keep the chains moving you need to adjust. Likewise, when an aggressive defense shuts the opponent down then you have to keep being aggressive. And that's why I blame the coaching staff...up by only 5 with a lot of time left and they went turtle on both sides of the ball...not good at all.


I'll ask these again:

Do you believe that Ben had the authority to audible if he saw 8 men in the box?

Why do you believe the Bengals got the job done when the defense knew they had to pass?

I don't know for sure...but if he did then he deserves some of the blame for not checking out of the run.

Because we stopped applying pressure. We went to a 4 man pass rush with no stunting and dropped everyone else well off the ball. Ike was the only guy covering like a blanket and consequently, he made some plays. If Farrior were closer to the LOS he probably makes the play to end the game by stopping the back on 4th and 10.

Again, I'll point to the play where we actually did run a 5 man rush out of a stunt (corner blitz)...Gay pressured Palmer and he had to throw it away despite a wide open Coles on the other side of the field. The pressure pushed Palmer AWAY from where Coles was and there was no way Palmer could get him the ball.

Mister Pittsburgh
09-30-2009, 05:11 PM
Lets see...we have 4 great to solid WR in Hines, Holmes, Wallace, McDonald....we have one of the best TE in the game in Heath, we have a 6'7" TE in Spaeth that we never try a jump ball to....we have a 6'4" WR in Sweed that we never try a jump ball or fade pass to....our QB loves to be out of the pocket running around yet we have tried zero designed bootlegs to this point.......our QB ran a spead em out no huddle from the shotgun type offense in college and we have all these weapons to catch the ball including a great back for catching passes in Moore....yet we don't go no huddle much at all......hmmmmmmm.....sounds like Arians is a total blowhard.

There is just no football arguement against this. My grandma would be more creative than this.

Absolutely. They have 100% built a team that HAS to pass....then seem dumbfounded that they can't run it down teams throats.

Starlifter
09-30-2009, 06:07 PM
there's no black or white here - it's shades of grey. coaches have to call the right plays and then players have to execute them. either side can screw up but it can be overcome if players make an exceptional play on a poorly chosen call OR the coach makes an inspired call and catches a defense off guard. so we can't simply blame BA, it's everyone's fault.

having said that - he was the offensive coordinator of the SB champions. I believe there are 7 new head coaches in the NFL this year. He didn't get one interview. now it's clear we're all amateurs and don't know nothing. but the rest of the NFL seems to think he's not very capable. that's something that can't be overlooked and a question I'd love to ask tomlin. why do you think no other teams are interested in BA?

Mister Pittsburgh
09-30-2009, 08:29 PM
Pretty insightful there lifter.....People use the excuse that Bruce Arians was the OC when we won the superbowl so we have to keep him....he couldn't be as bad as all of us overreacting sky is falling fans say he is.....but then he didn't have a single interview for a head coaching job? Not one?

NorthCoast
09-30-2009, 08:56 PM
While some of you are looking at individual games or even plays and reaching your conclusions, I am looking at the overall 'body of work' from BA. It is not a pleasant sight. We are now sitting at 27th in the league in rushing. There has been a drop each year BA has been OC. Plus as other have mentioned (and I witnessed) when BA was the Browns OC he was absolutely terrible.
What is odd is that it seems the first 2 or 3 series in a game are pretty decent (presumably because they are scripted) but then things get ugly. I think BA really struggles with in-game adjustments. For those that say it is the execution by the players that is the issue I say if that is true then no HC or CEO should ever be fired because it is always the employees that fail to execute properly. Sorry, it just does not work that way in the real world.

meninblack
09-30-2009, 09:58 PM
The main reason I say Bruce must go is that his running PLAYS suck. There is neither power nor deception. Just the same carry back plunge into the line where the slightest penetration blows up the play.

I am a smashmouth football advocate, but if we must have BA I'm for passing on every down.

Mister Pittsburgh
10-01-2009, 08:03 AM
Teams stop our run, while on the way to try and kill Ben. Teams bring all 4 down linemen and sometimes linebackers and basically blitz Ben figuring they will stop the run on the way to him. We countered this with success in the preseason by having delayed handoffs, sprint-draws...This way when a defender on his way to Ben gets out of a line, that is when the RB gets the ball and picks whatever hole opens up rather than getting the ball and running to where the hole is supposed to be.

I hope Parker can't go very much this weekend against the Chargers and Mendenhall rips off 150 against them.