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stlrz d
09-11-2009, 06:54 AM
It was good to see them use a blocking FB more than we've seen, but Frank has got to improve.

I noticed on several plays that he "lunged" at his intended target and left his feet...eventually whiffing on the block.

:nono

Keep your feet Tank and DRIVE through your man!!!

steelblood
09-11-2009, 07:03 AM
I actually thought we used the blocking fullback less. I don't know the breakdown, but I'd be surprised if it was more than we normally used Davis/McHugh as FBs last year. I want to see David Johnson as FB in the next game.

Mister Pittsburgh
09-11-2009, 07:04 AM
Frank looked like crap. I would have rather have seen Redman back at RB on short yardage than Parker back there with Summers as a FB.

frankthetank1
09-11-2009, 07:24 AM
i agree frank looked awful. i cant believe he made the team over redman. david johnson should be in the backfield blocking for now on. why not put redman on the roster and send summers to the ps?

stlrz d
09-11-2009, 07:27 AM
i agree frank looked awful. i cant believe he made the team over redman. david johnson should be in the backfield blocking for now on. why not put redman on the roster and send summers to the ps?

Because Redman isn't a FB.

What Tank did wrong can be corrected by his position coach. All he has to do is keep his feet. It's technique.

frankthetank1
09-11-2009, 07:31 AM
i agree frank looked awful. i cant believe he made the team over redman. david johnson should be in the backfield blocking for now on. why not put redman on the roster and send summers to the ps?

Because Redman isn't a FB.

What Tank did wrong can be corrected by his position coach. All he has to do is keep his feet. It's technique.

i know redman isnt a fb but we have david johnson who can block from the fb position. i didnt expect frank to be dan krieder right from the get go but i expected better from him since he made the team. it looks like short yardage will be a problem again. at least redman is a hb you want to give the ball in those situations. i dont like having fwp in short yardage.

Oviedo
09-11-2009, 07:54 AM
i agree frank looked awful. i cant believe he made the team over redman. david johnson should be in the backfield blocking for now on. why not put redman on the roster and send summers to the ps?

Because Redman isn't a FB.

What Tank did wrong can be corrected by his position coach. All he has to do is keep his feet. It's technique.

i know redman isnt a fb but we have david johnson who can block from the fb position. i didnt expect frank to be dan krieder right from the get go but i expected better from him since he made the team. it looks like short yardage will be a problem again. at least redman is a hb you want to give the ball in those situations. i dont like having fwp in short yardage.

Who would you deactivate to have Redman on the active 45 man roster. That is the problem and that is why he did not make the Final 53. He would be the #4 or #5 RB and would not be active on gamedays. Same with Johnson. Who do you deactivate to have him active?

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
09-11-2009, 08:00 AM
Frank did miss some key blocks. However, I wouldn't write off a rookie starting his first game just yet. Frank was primarily used as a HB in college. Lead blocker takes some discipline. It isn't about staying on your feet. The most important thing is not to make eye contact with the player you need to engage. Discipline yourself to find your target in the "trash" and get to him under control. It is more important for you to isolate him then to "blow him up" on the play. As you get more repititions that will come. Now here's they key I'm sure (I Hope) his RB coach is telling him. Pick a spot below his numbers(Right wher the rib cage stops) and stair at it as you approach. Don't take your eyes off of it...That is your target. This keeps you low and doesn't allow you to bite on the targets false steps. Then...Run through it. Short arms and be under control. Isolate him first...Pancake him second. Taking him out of the play is more important than taking him for a ride. I would say we should see some kind of improvement after game 4 before we need to worry.

frankthetank1
09-11-2009, 08:01 AM
i agree frank looked awful. i cant believe he made the team over redman. david johnson should be in the backfield blocking for now on. why not put redman on the roster and send summers to the ps?

Because Redman isn't a FB.

What Tank did wrong can be corrected by his position coach. All he has to do is keep his feet. It's technique.

i know redman isnt a fb but we have david johnson who can block from the fb position. i didnt expect frank to be dan krieder right from the get go but i expected better from him since he made the team. it looks like short yardage will be a problem again. at least redman is a hb you want to give the ball in those situations. i dont like having fwp in short yardage.

Who would you deactivate to have Redman on the active 45 man roster. That is the problem and that is why he did not make the Final 53. He would be the #4 or #5 RB and would not be active on gamedays. Same with Johnson. Who do you deactivate to have him active?

they could deactivate frank summers. johnson didnt dress last night? seems odd with all the two te sets they run. i would think they would have 3 te's active most games like they did last season.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
09-11-2009, 09:06 AM
Yes he is a rook playing in his first game, and yes he has a chance to improve. The team chose him over Redman for a reason.

However, we can not let him fail so badly at this on-the-job training. He was absolutely useless as a lead blocker. Get on him in practice this week and don't stop until he can find the right player in the hole and at least neutralize him - he doesn't have to "Kreider" him, just take him out of the RBs way.

I'd put Johnson, or Redman, or only run one back sets for now and only even activtae him once he can lay a block.

BTW - He can't be a bust until we can figure out a good bust name for this expected HOF fifth rounder. Can anything top Bustamalu? Man, he was the worst bust of all time, mainly because he had a great bust name. Whatever happened to that guy anyways? :lol: :lol:

papillon
09-11-2009, 09:10 AM
i agree frank looked awful. i cant believe he made the team over redman. david johnson should be in the backfield blocking for now on. why not put redman on the roster and send summers to the ps?

Because Redman isn't a FB.

What Tank did wrong can be corrected by his position coach. All he has to do is keep his feet. It's technique.

I'm not sure about that, it also seemed like it took him a split second too long to identify who to block, thus causing the lunge rather than driving through the player.

He looked bad and I'm happy he made the team. He needs to get a lot better.

Pappy

proudpittsburgher
09-11-2009, 09:19 AM
I didn't pay attention to every play he was in, but the two that jumped out to me were when he was used as a decoy. He went right, and the back cut left. Is it really worth it t have him in there when he is only a decoy, or was that to stop backside pressure . . . or was the play supposed to go in his direction? Resident experts, I need help. :)

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
09-11-2009, 09:52 AM
I didn't pay attention to every play he was in, but the two that jumped out to me were when he was used as a decoy. He went right, and the back cut left. Is it really worth it t have him in there when he is only a decoy, or was that to stop backside pressure . . . or was the play supposed to go in his direction? Resident experts, I need help. :)

I assume your are talking about Summers.

The rule you learn from pee-wee up is "Follow the FB" on defense. It is just counter motion to get the LBs flowing the wrong direction. His responsibilty after that should be to cut off backside pursuit. If you are playing ILB and the FB fires into the A gap...That is where you meet him. That is why playaction is so effective to a TE strongside if the ILB has the TE. He follows the FB into the hole and is trailing the TE after he realizes it is play action. In the case you referenced above, this misdirection or counter motion helps the OL in their blocks. They could reach a guy easier when he takes a false step away from the play or is caught flat footed. It also helps the OL & onside WR(s) to get a seal block on the LB(s) or DE. This motion also buys some time to allow an onside & backside OL to pull and lead the play. In this case, it was Essex and Miller I believe. So in the "backside/inside - onside/outside" rule...Essex was supposed to trap the DE and Miller was the lead blocker. On the play I remember, Essex got the trap but Miller met Bullock in the hole and Bullock fell off the block to make the tackle.

phillyesq
09-11-2009, 10:10 AM
i agree frank looked awful. i cant believe he made the team over redman. david johnson should be in the backfield blocking for now on. why not put redman on the roster and send summers to the ps?

Because Redman isn't a FB.

What Tank did wrong can be corrected by his position coach. All he has to do is keep his feet. It's technique.

I'm not sure about that, it also seemed like it took him a split second too long to identify who to block, thus causing the lunge rather than driving through the player.

He looked bad and I'm happy he made the team. He needs to get a lot better.

Pappy

I had high hopes for Summers, but he looked terrible last night. It is one game, and I'm certainly not going to give up on him, but I'd really like to see some improvement quickly.

papillon
09-11-2009, 10:11 AM
I didn't pay attention to every play he was in, but the two that jumped out to me were when he was used as a decoy. He went right, and the back cut left. Is it really worth it t have him in there when he is only a decoy, or was that to stop backside pressure . . . or was the play supposed to go in his direction? Resident experts, I need help. :)

I assume your are talking about Summers.

The rule you learn from pee-wee up is "Follow the FB" on defense. It is just counter motion to get the LBs flowing the wrong direction. His responsibilty after that should be to cut off backside pursuit. If you are playing ILB and the FB fires into the A gap...That is where you meet him. That is why playaction is so effective to a TE strongside if the ILB has the TE. He follows the FB into the hole and is trailing the TE after he realizes it is play action. In the case you referenced above, this misdirection or counter motion helps the OL in their blocks. They could reach a guy easier when he takes a false step away from the play or is caught flat footed. It also helps the OL & onside WR(s) to get a seal block on the LB(s) or DE. This motion also buys some time to allow an onside & backside OL to pull and lead the play. In this case, it was Essex and Miller I believe. So in the "backside/inside - onside/outside" rule...Essex was supposed to trap the DE and Miller was the lead blocker. On the play I remember, Essex got the trap but Miller met Bullock in the hole and Bullock fell off the block to make the tackle.

JPN, All I can say is, "I'm glad you post on this board" I've only played one season of football in the 9th grade, but after listening (reading) your insight I feel like I could coach a high school team.

Thanks

Pappy

proudpittsburgher
09-11-2009, 10:18 AM
Thanks, Nasty, that makes sense. Can you run a counter play without a fullback with the same effect though? It seems as if a guy like Willie with his speed can do this and pretty much be left one on one with the lone defender. That's why I wondered if having a fullback was worth it solely for the misdirection or if you could do that with an extra reciever in to potentially spread out the defense. Especially with bananna bunch to the faked side. I just wonder if havign the fullback, instead of another piece to the offense was worth it in this situation. I don't know, just wondering if the fullback is needed in this case. You show, though, that you know a helluva lot more about the X's and O's than do I, sir. :)

NorthCoast
09-11-2009, 06:59 PM
i agree frank looked awful. i cant believe he made the team over redman. david johnson should be in the backfield blocking for now on. why not put redman on the roster and send summers to the ps?

Because Redman isn't a FB.

What Tank did wrong can be corrected by his position coach. All he has to do is keep his feet. It's technique.

Thank you. A guy that gets it. This was Summers first real NFL game. One of the hardest adjustments rookies make is the speed of the game, and you cannot simulate it in practice. It looked to me like Frank was just running at a different speed. He needs to tune up his burst, but I think he can still be an effective FB. Jees, give the guy a break. Let's just watch for incremental improvement week-to-week and see where it goes.

Steel Life
09-11-2009, 07:46 PM
A couple of thoughts on Summers debut at fullback...

1. Despite the practice, it still must be difficult for a college HB to convert to a FB where the mindset is completely different. It's obvious that it's going to be an on-going experiment to see if Frank can become our version of LeRon McClain.

2. Speaking of practice, the question begging to be asked is - how much "real" practice will Frank get considering Arians' obvious lack of respect for the position? This where I believe Johnson has the advantage, as a TE, Johnson is used to blocking & as such, needs to be afforded an opportunity to show what he can do. After all, if Frank can be thrown into the fire during a real game, then Johnson can as well.

3. Lastly, I don't think Frank did all that badly & one play I saw gave me some hope. It was stretch run to the right & it appeared as though Frank had to make the right read of the success of TE's block & then kick out to seek a second level block. A lot of guys just bury their heads & plow into the TE's block, basically doubling up on an already blocked defender rather than keep their head up & see beyond the line to find the next guy (watch OL's in space to see an obvious example of this). Frank made the correct read & made an average block but due to a night-long poor read by the RB, the play gained half the yards it should have.

stlrz d
09-11-2009, 08:18 PM
Frank did miss some key blocks. However, I wouldn't write off a rookie starting his first game just yet. Frank was primarily used as a HB in college. Lead blocker takes some discipline. It isn't about staying on your feet. The most important thing is not to make eye contact with the player you need to engage. Discipline yourself to find your target in the "trash" and get to him under control. It is more important for you to isolate him then to "blow him up" on the play. As you get more repititions that will come. Now here's they key I'm sure (I Hope) his RB coach is telling him. Pick a spot below his numbers(Right wher the rib cage stops) and stair at it as you approach. Don't take your eyes off of it...That is your target. This keeps you low and doesn't allow you to bite on the targets false steps. Then...Run through it. Short arms and be under control. Isolate him first...Pancake him second. Taking him out of the play is more important than taking him for a ride. I would say we should see some kind of improvement after game 4 before we need to worry.

By no means am I writing him off...I was just pointing out how he can improve, which can be addressed by coaching, as you also pointed out.

What I meant by keeping his feet is that he needs to initiate contact with his feet still under him...once you leave your feet you can't change direction if need be, and you also lose power. He can do what I highlighted by keeping his feet under him at least until he makes contact.

RuthlessBurgher
09-12-2009, 11:53 AM
i agree frank looked awful. i cant believe he made the team over redman. david johnson should be in the backfield blocking for now on. why not put redman on the roster and send summers to the ps?

Because Redman isn't a FB.

What Tank did wrong can be corrected by his position coach. All he has to do is keep his feet. It's technique.

i know redman isnt a fb but we have david johnson who can block from the fb position. i didnt expect frank to be dan krieder right from the get go but i expected better from him since he made the team. it looks like short yardage will be a problem again. at least redman is a hb you want to give the ball in those situations. i dont like having fwp in short yardage.

Who would you deactivate to have Redman on the active 45 man roster. That is the problem and that is why he did not make the Final 53. He would be the #4 or #5 RB and would not be active on gamedays. Same with Johnson. Who do you deactivate to have him active?

Since both Summers and Johnson were active on gameday, if you sent Summers to the practice squad and brought up Redman, Redman would just take Summers' spot on the 45 man active roster. No one else would have to be deactivated. Parker would start, Mendenhall would spell him, Moore would be the 3rd down/no huddle RB, and in short yardages you could have Redman at RB and Johnson at FB (just like how they used a short yardage specialist Russell at RB and a 3rd TE McHugh at FB last year). If Johnson gets hurt, they could call up the Tank from the P.S. for the next game. We don't necessarily need to have 2 FB candidates active on gameday, since they use a traditional I-formation on less than 5 plays total now.

DukieBoy
09-12-2009, 12:08 PM
Frank has "the right Steeler-kind of stuff" and raw talent and alot of that needs good coaching to develop.
The experience is invaluable and skills and technique will be taught and learned.

birtikidis
09-12-2009, 12:35 PM
alot of people here forget how well summers did on special teams. Redman wouldn't be able to play special teams AND play fullback OR tailback because he's so damn out of shape.
I like Redman, but I think that Summers will be our next good fullback.
whoever made the point about practice time and Arians not respecting the position. that's a good point, BUT Tomlin is a coach who is aware of SITUATIONAL football. I'm sure they practice 3rd and short and goal line situations alot. and im pretty sure they practice it with summers on the field.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
09-12-2009, 01:26 PM
I miss Carey Davis :stirpot

DukieBoy
09-12-2009, 01:30 PM
I miss Carey Davis :stirpot


I hear he's been invited to the Leafs training camp.
:stirpot :stirpot

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
09-12-2009, 01:32 PM
I miss Carey Davis :stirpot


I hear he's been invited to the Leafs training camp.
:stirpot :stirpot

He has probably never laced up a pair of skates and had no idea where Toronto or even Canada was prior to last pre season.......but he may actually have a shot at cracking the Leafs. :lol:

DukieBoy
09-12-2009, 01:37 PM
[quote="steeler_fan_in_t.o.":1q2pjzw7]I miss Carey Davis :stirpot


I hear he's been invited to the Leafs training camp.
:stirpot :stirpot

He has probably never laced up a pair of skates and had no idea where Toronto or even Canada was prior to last pre season.......but he may actually have a shot at cracking the Leafs. :lol:[/quote:1q2pjzw7]
Bring back Tie Domi

jj28west
09-12-2009, 02:12 PM
I didn't pay attention to every play he was in, but the two that jumped out to me were when he was used as a decoy. He went right, and the back cut left. Is it really worth it t have him in there when he is only a decoy, or was that to stop backside pressure . . . or was the play supposed to go in his direction? Resident experts, I need help. :)

I assume your are talking about Summers.

The rule you learn from pee-wee up is "Follow the FB" on defense. It is just counter motion to get the LBs flowing the wrong direction. His responsibilty after that should be to cut off backside pursuit. If you are playing ILB and the FB fires into the A gap...That is where you meet him. That is why playaction is so effective to a TE strongside if the ILB has the TE. He follows the FB into the hole and is trailing the TE after he realizes it is play action. In the case you referenced above, this misdirection or counter motion helps the OL in their blocks. They could reach a guy easier when he takes a false step away from the play or is caught flat footed. It also helps the OL & onside WR(s) to get a seal block on the LB(s) or DE. This motion also buys some time to allow an onside & backside OL to pull and lead the play. In this case, it was Essex and Miller I believe. So in the "backside/inside - onside/outside" rule...Essex was supposed to trap the DE and Miller was the lead blocker. On the play I remember, Essex got the trap but Miller met Bullock in the hole and Bullock fell off the block to make the tackle.


Damn!, that makes a lot of sense. Excellent explanation of the game within the game. I have not seen stuff like this since the trib days. I have to admit if you have an opinion on something I am led to believe you know what you are talking about.

Mister Pittsburgh
09-12-2009, 03:37 PM
If Frank the Tank was a HB in college, why not give him a couple carries with TE Johnson as his lead blocker? Or just put him in there to pick up the blitz, on screens, and on draws.

RuthlessBurgher
09-12-2009, 04:08 PM
If Frank the Tank was a HB in college, why not give him a couple carries with TE Johnson as his lead blocker? Or just put him in there to pick up the blitz, on screens, and on draws.

When given the ball in the pre-season, he seemed to run too high to be an effective short yardage back. Hopefully, he is able to work on this with the coaches (as well as working on his blocking). I'm not giving up on Tank, but he seems like the kind of project fit for a practice squad instead of the active roster, no?

Captain Lemming
09-12-2009, 10:11 PM
i agree frank looked awful. i cant believe he made the team over redman. david johnson should be in the backfield blocking for now on. why not put redman on the roster and send summers to the ps?

Because Redman isn't a FB.

What Tank did wrong can be corrected by his position coach. All he has to do is keep his feet. It's technique.

i know redman isnt a fb but we have david johnson who can block from the fb position. i didnt expect frank to be dan krieder right from the get go but i expected better from him since he made the team. it looks like short yardage will be a problem again. at least redman is a hb you want to give the ball in those situations. i dont like having fwp in short yardage.

Who would you deactivate to have Redman on the active 45 man roster. That is the problem and that is why he did not make the Final 53. He would be the #4 or #5 RB and would not be active on gamedays. Same with Johnson. Who do you deactivate to have him active?

Since both Summers and Johnson were active on gameday, if you sent Summers to the practice squad and brought up Redman, Redman would just take Summers' spot on the 45 man active roster. No one else would have to be deactivated. Parker would start, Mendenhall would spell him, Moore would be the 3rd down/no huddle RB, and in short yardages you could have Redman at RB and Johnson at FB (just like how they used a short yardage specialist Russell at RB and a 3rd TE McHugh at FB last year). If Johnson gets hurt, they could call up the Tank from the P.S. for the next game. We don't necessarily need to have 2 FB candidates active on gameday, since they use a traditional I-formation on less than 5 plays total now.

Agree completely.

Frank is one guy in 11 on special teams. He played well but he aint the one vital price that will devastate our special teams if he aint playing.

Of all our options at FB the best blocker is Johnson. The dude is a tight end with long arms, our best receiving threat as well.

Redman was by far our best short yardage guy in the preseason.

I dont care if it is a lack of experience, we have a rookie in Johnson who KNOWS how to block NOW. If we want to "find out" if Frank can block, that is why you have a practice squad.

In the game our FB could not block, and the RBs struggled in short yardage. The players who did those roles best in preseason, and in practice were not used. That makes the answer obvious;

Play Johnson at FB and give Redman the short yardage duties. Problem fixed.

fezziwig
09-13-2009, 05:29 PM
the steelers found no diamond in the rough with summers. there's a reason he was on a small school, he isn't that good.

the guy looks like a statue out there and when he is moving, he's going the wrong way.

steelsnis
09-13-2009, 05:41 PM
Have we not learned anything from our past??? It's ONE GAME!!! Let's not write a guy off who has a grand total of 5 PLAYS under his belt.

He didn't play particularly well on Thursday, but it was his FIRST GAME EVER AS AN NFL FULLBACK! Let's not get too crazy here and cut him from the team already.

stlrz d
09-13-2009, 07:32 PM
Have we not learned anything from our past??? It's ONE GAME!!! Let's not write a guy off who has a grand total of 5 PLAYS under his belt.

He didn't play particularly well on Thursday, but it was his FIRST GAME EVER AS AN NFL FULLBACK! Let's not get too crazy here and cut him from the team already.

Just for the record, I wasn't writing him off. I suspect your comments weren't directed at me, but I wanted to be sure you knew I'm not in the "ditch him now" club.

steelsnis
09-13-2009, 07:42 PM
haha no way, you're the worst pessimist here!!! :wink:

stlrz d
09-13-2009, 07:47 PM
haha no way, you're the worst pessimist here!!! :wink:

Some might say I'm a "ball-less" pessimist. I mean it's not like I was suggesting how Summers could get better, which in turn would make the team better. :D

Captain Lemming
09-13-2009, 11:14 PM
Have we not learned anything from our past??? It's ONE GAME!!! Let's not write a guy off who has a grand total of 5 PLAYS under his belt.

He didn't play particularly well on Thursday, but it was his FIRST GAME EVER AS AN NFL FULLBACK! Let's not get too crazy here and cut him from the team already.

I would love to have Summers and Redman on the team. We only have room for one, and we have the wrong guy.

My point is that Summers "proven" ability, even in college is as a runner. Our hope was that he could be the short yardage guy. Redman was better BY FAR, in that role.

Summers is playing fullback not running back. We have him STARTING as an "experiment" at a position that he did not play in college. I am not against a guy starting at a new position, if he looks like a perfect fit.

I want Johnson as our FB and he is a tight end. Johnson who was said to be able to block Harrison "like nobody ever has" in practice. Johnson was an excellent blocker, when he line up as a fullback, unlike Summers who was OK.

I dont want to give up on Summers. But I want our ONLY capable short yardage guy Redman giving use the best chance of scoring TDs in short yardage.

Sure this is Summers first game as a fullback. I am not judging him on one game. I am judging him on all we saw in preseason. He did nothing special as a blocker.

What fullback skiill of his is superior to Johnson that you saw or heard about?

Johnson looked like a GREAT blocker. A too short blocking tight end. A natural fit at FB.

Bring Redman on and send Summers down, and we get superior blocking, and short yardage play.

Captain Lemming
09-13-2009, 11:38 PM
Adding to my last comment, this seem like the Davis over McHugh thing. I never understood why Davis was preferable when he was OK as a blocker and Mchugh was better in that role.

Just because someone is a big running back it doesnt make him the best FB.

We almost never run the FB. If you are going to go with a rookie FB, why not go with a short tight end who has developed blocking skills honed over YEARS of play as a primary blocker, and made a huge impression as a blocker, rather than a guy who we "hope" can "develop" into a capable blocker as a FB on a SB team.

It aint even about being anti-Summers. I just feel that Redman fills a role better than anyone else, while Summers can be replaced by a more capable option.
Letting go of Summers is what we need to do to get Redman back.

RuthlessBurgher
09-13-2009, 11:43 PM
Have we not learned anything from our past??? It's ONE GAME!!! Let's not write a guy off who has a grand total of 5 PLAYS under his belt.

He didn't play particularly well on Thursday, but it was his FIRST GAME EVER AS AN NFL FULLBACK! Let's not get too crazy here and cut him from the team already.

I would love to have Summers and Redman on the team. We only have room for one, and we have the wrong guy.

My point is that Summers "proven" ability, even in college is as a runner. Our hope was that he could be the short yardage guy. Redman was better BY FAR, in that role.

Summers is playing fullback not running back. We have him STARTING as an "experiment" at a position that he did not play in college. I am not against a guy starting at a new position, if he looks like a perfect fit.

I want Johnson as our FB and he is a tight end. Johnson who was said to be able to block Harrison "like nobody ever has" in practice. Johnson was an excellent blocker, when he line up as a fullback, unlike Summers who was OK.

I dont want to give up on Summers. But I want our ONLY capable short yardage guy Redman giving use the best chance of scoring TDs in short yardage.

Sure this is Summers first game as a fullback. I am not judging him on one game. I am judging him on all we saw in preseason. He did nothing special as a blocker.

What fullback skiill of his is superior to Johnson that you saw or heard about?

Johnson looked like a GREAT blocker. A too short blocking tight end. A natural fit at FB.

Bring Redman on and send Summers down, and we get superior blocking, and short yardage play.

:Agree

I'm not giving up on Summers, but since he is just beginning to learn how to play FB, let him learn on the practice squad, since Johnson is a better blocking FB right now anyway. Redman could take Summers' place on the roster for now to be a short yardage RB who lines up behind Johnson on 3rd and 1 and at the goal line. At least then the defense has to respect the threat of the run in those situations. If you were a defensive coordinator, would you be worried about Willie Parker in a single back set with Miller and Spaeth as blocking TE's for short yardage situations? I wouldn't...but I would respect the threat that Redman following Johnson through the hole would present.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
09-14-2009, 09:12 AM
Thanks, Nasty, that makes sense. Can you run a counter play without a fullback with the same effect though? It seems as if a guy like Willie with his speed can do this and pretty much be left one on one with the lone defender. That's why I wondered if having a fullback was worth it solely for the misdirection or if you could do that with an extra reciever in to potentially spread out the defense. Especially with bananna bunch to the faked side. I just wonder if havign the fullback, instead of another piece to the offense was worth it in this situation. I don't know, just wondering if the fullback is needed in this case. You show, though, that you know a helluva lot more about the X's and O's than do I, sir. :)
Sorry it took so long to reply. I usually post during the week. You can run counter plays with any personnel packages. However, the effectiveness depends on who you are playing and that is determined with game film and the weekly preparation. I'm sure many times you have seen OL pulling away from the play. That is a form of counter. An example you have seen the Steelers run would be Ben faking a handoff to Parker on a run to the right. The RG pulls right like he is leading the play but stops and block the LDE. This is called an "influence" pull. Parker either helps on the block or continues on a pattern. This would be a playaction pass play with some counter action. This action is done to slow down the DL pass rush because the DL are taught to read the OL to flow to the play. If there was a DL head up or gap on Essex he would flow following Essex. Because there wasn't a FB, the LB read through their DL and see the flow. A good LB would just be caught flat footed for a second until he saw the ball was still with the QB. If that LB is responsible for a TE/H-Back he is behind because of the mis-direction. A package without a FB could be a 2 TE/2 WR set. 1 TE right on the LOS. The other TE left with step back motion right. The ball is snapped when the motion TE becomes stacked behind the other TE. Ben can read coverage now. If the TE is followed he has man. If the defense shifts towards motion he has zone. Run the counter motion we just described with the RG. The TE(s) have option routes being decided by the coverage they show from the motion. This would be a playaction pass play. Same design for a run now. The defense reacts to box motion just like a FB. The TE shuffle motion is almost the same as a FB leading to that side. He would take a counter step at the snap to "pretend" he is attacking a block that side. So in this scenario, it would be like the play we were talking about. The difference would be the TE on the LOS would have to reach/dig the LDE and the RT would have to fill the G gap and go for backside LB. The shuffle motion TE would be the 2nd blocker following Essex pulling. Parker would make a counter step right and Ben would open from the snap to the right and show the ball. Ben would continue on 180 and hand the ball off to Parker from his right hand (with his back to LOS) as Parker runs left after his counter step. Timing and spacing is crucial because Ben has to get deep enough to allow Essex and the TE to get behind him on the pull. Parker also has to maintain spacing so he has enough depth after his counter step right to take the handoff from Ben without running into him as he goes off the Trap left. Essex would trap the LDE and the TE would lead through the hole. Similar play to the one we were talking about without the FB. Like I said, the personnel used would come from the game film and weekly prep. Depending how the defense reacted to different formations, personnel packages, and down & distance would dictate what personnel group would be better. But to answer your question a FB isn't the only option. Hope you followed it.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
09-14-2009, 09:42 AM
[quote="JUST-PLAIN-NASTY":3d5bxg5u]Frank did miss some key blocks. However, I wouldn't write off a rookie starting his first game just yet. Frank was primarily used as a HB in college. Lead blocker takes some discipline. It isn't about staying on your feet. The most important thing is not to make eye contact with the player you need to engage. Discipline yourself to find your target in the "trash" and get to him under control. It is more important for you to isolate him then to "blow him up" on the play. As you get more repititions that will come. Now here's they key I'm sure (I Hope) his RB coach is telling him. Pick a spot below his numbers(Right wher the rib cage stops) and stair at it as you approach. Don't take your eyes off of it...That is your target. This keeps you low and doesn't allow you to bite on the targets false steps. Then...Run through it. Short arms and be under control. Isolate him first...Pancake him second. Taking him out of the play is more important than taking him for a ride. I would say we should see some kind of improvement after game 4 before we need to worry.

By no means am I writing him off...I was just pointing out how he can improve, which can be addressed by coaching, as you also pointed out.

What I meant by keeping his feet is that he needs to initiate contact with his feet still under him...once you leave your feet you can't change direction if need be, and you also lose power. He can do what I highlighted by keeping his feet under him at least until he makes contact.[/quote:3d5bxg5u]
I understand what you are saying. I observed Summers lunging at his block going for a kill shot. What Summers has to understand is it is more important for him to make his block right now. Holding up the guy is more important thatn putting him on his back. He needs to be under control so he could react...Just like you said. Being the lead blocker is just an "Iso" block. Isolation...Meaning the play is coming right behind him. The block doesn't have to be maintained that long. It is a great way to attack a gool LB. Trying to have a OL get to that level and maintain a block is very difficult. By trying to get him with an "Iso" block, you just have to innitiate contact and maintain it briefly. Good technique is the key. With body position and using the right shoulder you could take the LB out of the play without even staying on him long. Make the LB...Make the play through you or around you. A good running back will help set the play up and make the block easy. If the running back follows opposite shoulder of his cut, the LB sometimes looses discipline and takes the block on with the wrong shoulder. The "Bus" was absolutely great at this and made guys like Lester & Kreider look like OL on wheels. Because once the LB sees the cut it is to late and the LB is on his heels trying to recover. The FB takes him for a ride or pancakes the LB.

Us Steelers Fans...
Some of the posters in here played ball. You really have a good feeling for the "team sport" concept when you observe & know how the little things can make a teammate better. This is a perfect case. Just eye contact or lack there of by a HB following a FB has an influence on the play. Trailing position behind the FB sets the block up. These intangibles are what make some of the players great. It makes you wonder how a RB over weight and just a tick faster than his OL has the great success that gets him a gold jacket. It the "little things" like this that seperates them. The Steelers have some great athletes in the backfield. They are young and some are vets. But these young guys start learning the "little things" that help them and their teammates...We could see something special. The problem is some of them want to learn and some of them want to use their good given athletic ability. If/When they would only realize that there are things they can do to make someone better...And that in term could put them on the next level. I hope Mendenhall gets it because he could be great. I love Parker...But he still hasn't got it. There were several times in the Titans game he could have took a lane and got 4-6 yards or break a tackle and make a play. Instead...He went to the corner to challenge a defender's ability. He lost...And so did the Steelers on that play. The one thing missing in the running game since Bettis left isn't the running game or the OL...It is the selfishness of the RB. Do you wonder why Moore looked good when Parker was out and Mendenhall was gone? Do you wonder why Moore had more success against the Titans? Moore gets it! He isn't a a better athlete...He is a better football player!

Oviedo
09-14-2009, 10:57 AM
the steelers found no diamond in the rough with summers. there's a reason he was on a small school, he isn't that good.

the guy looks like a statue out there and when he is moving, he's going the wrong way.

Yea. Alot like guys like Greg Lloyd, James, Harrison, Jack Lambert, Joe Greene, Nate Washington. Small school guys who havd no business in the NFL.

Why don't we give Summers more than 5 plays before we write him off. I know he pales in comparison to the great Issac Redman but the coaches, who tend to be pretty good, must see something. Isn't all the hate for Summers really about the love for Issac "the pre-season legend" Redman who apparently can't block or he would have been on the Final 53.

RuthlessBurgher
09-14-2009, 12:16 PM
the steelers found no diamond in the rough with summers. there's a reason he was on a small school, he isn't that good.

the guy looks like a statue out there and when he is moving, he's going the wrong way.

Yea. Alot like guys like Greg Lloyd, James, Harrison, Jack Lambert, Joe Greene, Nate Washington. Small school guys who havd no business in the NFL.

Why don't we give Summers more than 5 plays before we write him off. I know he pales in comparison to the great Issac Redman but the coaches, who tend to be pretty good, must see something. Isn't all the hate for Summers really about the love for Issac "the pre-season legend" Redman who apparently can't block or he would have been on the Final 53.

Why was the small school thing ever brought up? Compared to Redman's Bowie State (Division II), Summers' UNLV (Divison I Mountain West Conference) looks like Notre Dame.

ikestops85
09-14-2009, 12:23 PM
Have we not learned anything from our past??? It's ONE GAME!!! Let's not write a guy off who has a grand total of 5 PLAYS under his belt.

He didn't play particularly well on Thursday, but it was his FIRST GAME EVER AS AN NFL FULLBACK! Let's not get too crazy here and cut him from the team already.

I would love to have Summers and Redman on the team. We only have room for one, and we have the wrong guy.

My point is that Summers "proven" ability, even in college is as a runner. Our hope was that he could be the short yardage guy. Redman was better BY FAR, in that role.

Summers is playing fullback not running back. We have him STARTING as an "experiment" at a position that he did not play in college. I am not against a guy starting at a new position, if he looks like a perfect fit.

I want Johnson as our FB and he is a tight end. Johnson who was said to be able to block Harrison "like nobody ever has" in practice. Johnson was an excellent blocker, when he line up as a fullback, unlike Summers who was OK.

I dont want to give up on Summers. But I want our ONLY capable short yardage guy Redman giving use the best chance of scoring TDs in short yardage.

Sure this is Summers first game as a fullback. I am not judging him on one game. I am judging him on all we saw in preseason. He did nothing special as a blocker.

What fullback skiill of his is superior to Johnson that you saw or heard about?

Johnson looked like a GREAT blocker. A too short blocking tight end. A natural fit at FB.

Bring Redman on and send Summers down, and we get superior blocking, and short yardage play.

I have to agree with the Captain on this. Everything I saw in pre-season showed Redman out playing Summers and Johnson knocking the snot out of players. Although I think Johnson hurt himself with his play in the last pre-season game when he had 1 minor and 3 major penalties called against him. Before the last cuts I really thought Redman would be our short yardage back no matter how bad of shape he was in and Johnson would be the lead back.

Of course that might be the reason I post on the message board and Tomlin and crew coach the Steelers :wink:

Oviedo
09-14-2009, 12:37 PM
the steelers found no diamond in the rough with summers. there's a reason he was on a small school, he isn't that good.

the guy looks like a statue out there and when he is moving, he's going the wrong way.

Yea. Alot like guys like Greg Lloyd, James, Harrison, Jack Lambert, Joe Greene, Nate Washington. Small school guys who havd no business in the NFL.

Why don't we give Summers more than 5 plays before we write him off. I know he pales in comparison to the great Issac Redman but the coaches, who tend to be pretty good, must see something. Isn't all the hate for Summers really about the love for Issac "the pre-season legend" Redman who apparently can't block or he would have been on the Final 53.

Why was the small school thing ever brought up? Compared to Redman's Bowie State (Division II), Summers' UNLV (Divison I Mountain West Conference) looks like Notre Dame.

Because people type without thinking about what they are saying particularly when their opinions are based on a lack of information and emotionalism.

fezziwig
09-15-2009, 08:35 AM
whew, the cat claws really come out when girls get hissy and emotional over their stud muffins being dissed.

while this country is still free, it is my opinion that the tank is far from being the answer or starting material. he missed blocks in preseason and he only swung at air in his first game. what did he do that makes him the next favorite or even a starter ?

he's a little bulldog that many thought would be some tough guy and bulldozer his way around. not going to happen.