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Lonbull
07-12-2009, 05:14 PM
This thread goes out to my friend A.A. who is suffering from offseason maddness.

I've decided to introduce an idea of

Then Versus Now.

The idea is that I will take two Steelers (one Steeler from the past, and one from the present) and ask for you to choose which one you prefer. Since the off-season is slow and we could all use a good debate please explain in detail why you prefer one player over the other.

Since a few of these Steelers are Hall of Famers you must consider the "potential" of the current Steelers and ask yourself - does a certain players potential give them an edge over a player who is already finished.

I'm also very interested in what your deciding factor was in choosing one player over the other.

Super Bowl rings may come into play as well - however you also must consider how some of these players would have performed during the hey-day of the 70's.

I look forward to your answers - here are the players.

1st - Terry Bradshaw vs. Ben Roethlisberger

2nd - Rod Woodson vs. Troy Polamalu

3rd - Greg Lloyd vs. James Harrison

4th - Lynn Swann vs. Hines Ward

5th - Barry Foster vs. Willie Parker

6th - Jack Ham vs Lamarr Woodley



L.B.

stlrz d
07-12-2009, 06:28 PM
This thread goes out to my friend A.A. who is suffering from offseason maddness.

I've decided to introduce an idea of

Then Versus Now.

The idea is that I will take two Steelers (one Steeler from the past, and one from the present) and ask for you to choose which one you prefer. Since the off-season is slow and we could all use a good debate please explain in detail why you prefer one player over the other.

Since a few of these Steelers are Hall of Famers you must consider the "potential" of the current Steelers and ask yourself - does a certain players potential give them an edge over a player who is already finished.

I'm also very interested in what your deciding factor was in choosing one player over the other.

Super Bowl rings may come into play as well - however you also must consider how some of these players would have performed during the hey-day of the 70's.

I look forward to your answers - here are the players.

1st - Terry Bradshaw vs. Ben Roethlisberger

2nd - Rod Woodson vs. Troy Polamalu

3rd - Greg Lloyd vs. James Harrison

4th - Lynn Swann vs. Hines Ward

5th - Barry Foster vs. Willie Parker

6th - Jack Ham vs Lamarr Woodley



L.B.

flippy
07-13-2009, 01:40 AM
1. Big Ben - My gut says he'll be the best ever when he retires. I'm still in awe of how good he was in year 1. We aren't even close to the prime of his career and he's carried us to 2 rings. And Ben's doing it without a loaded offense.

2. Troy P - He will be the #2 Steeler of all time after Ben when all is said and done. If my son played football, I'd want him to be Troy P. Barely speaking above a whisper, but everyone knows he carries the biggest stick on the field. He's the anti NFL player. He's a freak athlete. Woodson isn't as good a Troy in his dreams. Woodson was great, but Troy is out of this world talented.

3. James Harrison - His INT return in SuperBowl XLIII seals it for me. Greatest play in the history of Steelers football. This one isn't even close like the first 2. From UDFA that was cut time and time again to DMVP. This guy is the best Steelers feel good story of all time. James is probably the only 5-10 guy in the history of the NFL to see double and triple teams. Lloyd isn't in his league.

4. Hines Ward - Swanny's the better WR by a mile. But Ward's my favorite player. Would have loved to see Ward attack DBs in Swann's era.

5. FWP - Barry was the greatest Steelers RB ever for 1 season. Willie keeps bringing it year in and year out. Longest TD run in SuperBowl history. What did Foster ever do?

6. Jack Ham - I love Woodley as much as anybody, but no way is it even fair to compare him to the best LB in Steelers history. Although 2 sacks per playoff game is pretty darn impressive.

Lonbull
07-13-2009, 02:12 AM
Flippy - thanks for your thoughtful answers, I tried to find players that would make the choices difficult - however you didn't seem to have any problems at all - I have to say that I'm a little surprised that you took mostly modern players, because I know how much you like the older players.


Stlrz D - C'mon man I know you've got more in you than just red highlights - I've got you saying Greg Lloyd and Barry Foster and Flippy saying James Harrison and F.W.P. - help me out dude what are you thinking?

L.B.

stlrz d
07-13-2009, 06:38 AM
Lloyd - Because everything about him just screamed intimidation...even his facemask.

Foster - Can't really explain this one. I love FWP for everything he does and everything he aspires to do...I'm one of his staunchest defenders when it comes to the "FWP sucks" crowd. But there was something about Barry that has always stuck with me. Maybe it's got to do with that one incredible season and what I thought he was going to be? Not sure. Anyway, I believe that Mendenhall (given his abilities and physical make up) can be what Barry Foster wasn't able to be. Both of them are just little bowling balls of muscle.

Ghost
07-13-2009, 01:01 PM
1. Bradshaw: 4>2 (with 2 MVPs). HOF. Just too early to give Ben the nod.
2. Woodson: Simply one of the greatest athletes to ever play the game. Corner, Safety and return man (pro bowl at all 3 positions). Troys fast but RW had literally Olympic level speed. The records he holds are insane.
3. Lloyd: This was the hardest choice for me to make. I could see this changing if Harrison continues to be the monster he was this past season. His INT return could be argued to be the greatest defensive play in SB history.
4. Ward: Hell never be the acrobatic, graceful player Swannn was but hell go down as the greatest all time Steelers WR. And the crushing blocks make up for the lack of ballet lessons.
5. Parker: Over time FWP has proven to be a better back. Give a nod for the SB record run.
6. Ham: This ones not even close for me.

ramblinjim
07-13-2009, 01:20 PM
These are all really tough. Fun thing to play with though and my ideas may well change depending on my mood.

1.) Bradshaw. This one is tough for me because I wouldn't take any player currently in the league over Big Ben, not even Brady. But Terry went through hell his first years in the league, he suffered season ending injuries, he was benched, his stats were never great yet her persevered and brought home four rings. Ben is the man and in two years or two days my mind may change but for now, I'll take Terry just slightly.

2.) Rod. Another brutal choice. As an Illinois fan, I've watched Woodson play since he was in college at Purdue and have always been impressed with his play. He is rightfully a first ballot hall of famer and even played safety at a very high level after leaving Pittsburgh. I only wish we could have gotten him a ring. Troy is awesome and may well be in the "best to play the position" discussion if he can stay healthy but for right now, I'll take Rod Woodson.

3.) I loved Greg Lloyd and his 'tude but I'm going to take James Harrison here. James has fought through adversity, worked hard, kept at it and is now the reigning defensive MVP and the most feared man on the field. Lloyd was feared because he was big, mean and talked some serious smack a la "Who is Joe Namath? This is a guy who, if he played in the league today, I'd probably just go hit him late and see what he did, just for the hell of it. Joe Namath can go to hell; he can kiss my @ss." Ahhhhhh but Silverback..... Silverback is feared because he is the baddest man on the field at any given time. The best left tackles in the league have to hold him, running backs are scared of him and he doesn't talk a lot of crap. I hope he wasn't a one year wonder flash in the pan, I hope he continues to scare the hell out of people. I have a little man love for James Harrison

4.) Hines. I just love the way he plays. Swann has four rings and is in the Hall of Fame but I think if Hines played for the 70's Steelers he would have had the rings and he would have knocked Jack Tatum out of the league. Or he would have played defensive back and Noll would have just let him kill people. Hines Ward is one of my top 5 favorite Steelers ever, so I'm biased.

5.) Willie. Barry was the best in the league for one season, afterwards not so much. Willie is what he is but he's played well and fought hard for us now for a few years and I'm going to take him here. If Barry would have stayed healthy for a number of years, we may never have gotten the Bus too.

6.) Ham. Jack Ham's body of work put him in the hall of fame as one of the best line backers to ever play the game. As much as I hope Woodley becomes all Ham was and more I just can't bring myself to put him in his league yet. Woodley = very good to great player, Jack Ham = one of the best to lace them up.

ramblinjim
07-13-2009, 01:22 PM
1. Big Ben - My gut says he'll be the best ever when he retires. I'm still in awe of how good he was in year 1. We aren't even close to the prime of his career and he's carried us to 2 rings. And Ben's doing it without a loaded offense.

2. Troy P - He will be the #2 Steeler of all time after Ben when all is said and done. If my son played football, I'd want him to be Troy P. Barely speaking above a whisper, but everyone knows he carries the biggest stick on the field. He's the anti NFL player. He's a freak athlete. Woodson isn't as good a Troy in his dreams. Woodson was great, but Troy is out of this world talented.

3. James Harrison - His INT return in SuperBowl XLIII seals it for me. Greatest play in the history of Steelers football. This one isn't even close like the first 2. From UDFA that was cut time and time again to DMVP. This guy is the best Steelers feel good story of all time. James is probably the only 5-10 guy in the history of the NFL to see double and triple teams. Lloyd isn't in his league.

4. Hines Ward - Swanny's the better WR by a mile. But Ward's my favorite player. Would have loved to see Ward attack DBs in Swann's era.

5. FWP - Barry was the greatest Steelers RB ever for 1 season. Willie keeps bringing it year in and year out. Longest TD run in SuperBowl history. What did Foster ever do?

6. Jack Ham - I love Woodley as much as anybody, but no way is it even fair to compare him to the best LB in Steelers history. Although 2 sacks per playoff game is pretty darn impressive.


Good stuff Flippy.

fezziwig
07-13-2009, 01:41 PM
Ben vs Terry. ---- Too early for me to say.

Rod vs. Troy. ---- Equal. I'd take Blount over Woodson.

Harrison vs. Lloyd ---- Kind of early but, I'll take Harrison

Swann vs. Ward---- Tough call but, I'll take Swann

Willie vs. Barry ---- Had Barry kept his head and attitiude together and remained a Steeler, he would have crushed.
I'll take Foster just for what his style
and toughness did for the game.

Ham vs. Woodley---- Woodley is good but Ham set the benchmark.

feltdizz
07-13-2009, 02:18 PM
Ben Roethlisberger - this is easy.. Terry had the big games when they mattered but Ben is unreal in his first 5 seasons and even if Ben only gets one more ring it's in a free agent and parody driven league... Terry had much better talent at WR as well..

2nd - Rod Woodson vs. Troy Polamalu - this is a push in my opinion.. Troy mixes it up but Rod Woodson was a beast and after leaving the Steelers he still prospered.. which is rare for a Steeler to do once they leave us. I'm leaning towards Rod Woodson since Troy isn't the best one on one in coverage...

James Harrison- another tough one since Harrison started so late in his career. That being said.... what Harrison has done in 3 seasons is damn impressive and his SB int return pretty much seals the deal. Best LB play ever by a Steeler followed by Jack Lambert slamming the guy after the missed FG. No points were scored but he impacted the game.

Lynn Swann - damn.... these get tougher and tougher... I have to go with Lynn Swann on this one but only by a hair... it would be easy to say Ward brings the intangibles like blocking and leadership.. but Swann did pull the Terrible Towel from his pants and with a few twirls the rest was history.. add his highlight films in the SB's and it's clear why he gets the nod.. Hines is fearless but hell... what Hines does underneath Lynn did over the top and who didn't go in their back yard and tip the ball to themselves while falling over and singing the NFL film scores? Also need to add that Lynn probably had the best catch I have ever seen in a SB with that sideline grab against the Vikes.. it was only 10 to 20 yards but it's a thing of beauty...

Willie Parker - if it was based on one season I would say Foster... but hell, Franco would have been better competition FWP wins this hands down.. much better career and his impact was instant.. came out of nowhere... and was something the Steelers had never had before...

Jack Ham - too easy.. dude was the unsung hero on that defense..

RuthlessBurgher
07-13-2009, 02:19 PM
1. Ben. Very similar skills and styles. Both had big arms and a knack for escapability, and showed themselves to be winners above all else. While Terry had many well-documented struggles early in his career in Pittsburgh, Ben's early career was exactly the opposite. That gives him the edge. If Ben continues on his current trajectory path, he should be able to surpass Bradshaw.

2. Rod. Tough, tough, tough. Troy can do things from the safety position that most players can only dream of...the best safety the NFL has seen since Ronnie Lott (yeah, you heard me, you Reed-loving Ravens fans). Woodson was also an all-time great (I think only Mel Blount and Night Train Lane can be mentioned in Rod's class among corners in history...and no, I did not forget about Deion Sanders, who couldn't tackle a one-legged girl). Woodson's special teams play in the return game may be the tiebreaker for me.

3. Lloyd. I got my first authentic Steeler jersey in the 8th grade, and it was #95. I didn't think we'd see anyone like him ever again...but then he was reincarnated as James Harrison. You can't deny Harrison's Super Bowl return, his DPOY season, his insane game against Baltimore in the 75th Anniversary game, his slamming of Chad Johnson and that Cleveland fan, his hurdling of LaDainian, etc., but emotions of your youth die hard, which is why I picked the guy who was not hired for his disposition. I wouldn't want to meet either of these guys in a dark alley, though.

4. Hines. Swann did come incredible things to bring down big passes in big games, but Hines was more than just a receiver. He's a football player in every sense of the word. A true Steeler. I didn't think I would ever wear an offensive player's jersey until Ward came along. He's a linebacker in a wideout's body.

5. Willie. Foster could have been great, but he did not live up to his promise after his one great season. Parker could have been forgotten after a lackluster college career, but he worked his way to where he is today. I will take the overachiever over the underachiever every day of the week. While the underachiever may have had more raw potential to be great, the overachiever has more heart to get him to where no one else thought he might be capable of going.

6. Ham. I think Jack Ham is the greatest Steeler linebacker of all time (Lambert included). Sure, he does not have the stats of other Steeler OLB's like Merriweather, Greene, Gildon, and Porter. You won't see as many "splash plays" out of a 4-3 OLB like Ham as you would out of 3-4 OLB like Woodley, but there is nothing Ham couldn't do. There was no weakness to his game. He was the complete package linebacker, which often lead to him being overlooked by some of his flashier peers (kind of like the Derrick Brooks of his day).

Discipline of Steel
07-13-2009, 06:54 PM
Ben vs Terry. ---- Terry made some throws but was more of a 'game manager' supported by a very strong team. Ben can hoist them up on his shoulders when it counts.

Rod vs. Troy. ---- Equal. I'd take Blount over Woodson. :Agree

Harrison vs. Lloyd ---- Harrison makes it a point to let his play do the talking.

Swann vs. Ward---- I idolized Swanny growing up. Hines is the better all around player and for a longer time.

Willie vs. Barry ---- Foster only had one season of greatness. Willie has had several seasons of very goodness. I take Willie.

Ham vs. Woodley---- I like Lambert, he elevated the intensity of the entire defense.

fezziwig
07-13-2009, 08:28 PM
DOS, you are one of the few or actually the only one I remember that agreed with me about Blount over Woodson.

Blount was a monster and I've never witnessed anyone better than him. Woodson runs a close second but Blount, he was pure coverage, defender, take the ball away and a crushing tackler. I'm curious to know how well he would have done as a return guy.

Again, I love Woodson but there was just that spark or current of talent in Blount that gives him the edge.

Iron Shiek
07-13-2009, 09:55 PM
4. Hines Ward - Swanny's the better WR by a mile. But Ward's my favorite player. Would have loved to see Ward attack DBs in Swann's era.


No kidding! Doesn't it just seem like Ward was supposed to have played back then. And I can guarantee you wouldn't have these whiny as$ b!tch as$ fans and players complaining about him. It would just get chalked up as hard football. Pansies.

Anyway, here are mine without having read past flippy's post so forgive me if I am repetitive:

1. Ben - Unfortunately I'm too young to have seen Bradshaw in his hayday so I have only highlights to go on. And while its not fair that I've seen all of Ben's games, I would still say Ben just based on how quickly he picked up the team and understood his various roles over the years (game manager to gun slinger to leader) each with its own successes. Ben's knack for being better in the 4th quarter than the 1st and his composure under severe pressure give him the nod.

2. Troy by his hair - This one is too close. Woodson was my favorite player forever but Troy's attacking style pushes him over the top. They are athletic in their own ways. But I just go back to some of the interceptions Troy's made recently and think that Woodson did all that. But Woodson didn't line up on the line and attack linebackers.


3. James Harrison - another one that could go either way. But I think i did see someone mention the INT return in the SB and I'd have to say that kind of athleticism gives him the nod for me because both of them are equally intimidating although Lloyd may have a slight edge on hitting


4. Ward - My favorite guy on the team. He's just a hard nosed football player who is highly dependable. SB MVP along with all his extra curricular stuff gives him the edge for me.

5. Foster - His style was more to my liking and he had a huge year. I guess you could say Parker was basically having an equally huge year but Foster moved the chains almost always whereas you don't know what you are getting always with Parker.

6. N/A - I can't compare these guys. I suppose Woodely has the potential to be just as effective as Ham, but I'm not ready to proclaim a winner. And again I've only got highlights to go on for Ham, so its hard to say for me.

Chachi
07-13-2009, 10:05 PM
I can never do these type of comparisons because it is Know vs. Unknown.

We know what Bradshaw did with his career. Ben in going into year 6. Ben is still Unknown. he could fulfill his dream and win 3 more SBs for a total of 5. He could tank ala golfer David Duval. He could get injured and be done in 2 years.

I could be closer to doing this if is was real time comparisons.

Ben has 5 years under his belt. Who would you take, Ben with 5 years under and what he has done or Bradshaw 5 years in and what he did in that time.

Troy has 7 (?) years under his belt. Or would you take Rod in year 7?

Etc.

Still would have a hard time, but I think this would be a more true comparison and fairer contest.

steelcityrules!!
07-13-2009, 10:34 PM
1) Ben. last season it was bradshaw in a landslide... but now, ben has truly stepped into elite status with fewer real weapons and stout linemen as his disposal. maybe the true arsenal and brick wall appears this season and he dominates like we haven't seen ever in the burgh.

2) Rod. The guy was all century for a reason. Troy is stellar, but Rod woodson was a true lock-down corner, blistering fast, and could hit like clark.

3) Harrison. This one was tough, but I really think he's not even close to content. He has this weird mentality about taking over a game, and with the maturation of woodley, he should be able to wreak havoc for years. The guy is a true silverback.

4) Ward. not even close for me on this. I believe ward plays the WR position like few if any ever before him. He is sure-handed, durable, typically out-matched in measureables... but never outplayed. He commands respect from his most hated rivals, and many of my best friends who are fans of various teams always say they would take hines to build their WR corps around.

5) Ham. I'll admit that I don't have a ton of footage digested of Ham, but his reputation preceeds him. Woodley is a beast in the making, but this comparison is too soon, and frankly I think they played the game quite differently.

AngryAsian
07-13-2009, 10:51 PM
I've been wanting to write in this thread since I read it yesterday, but I've worked 30 hours in 2 days and I have a 16 hours tomorrow with the big move. Not to mention Thr-Sat. (my normal shifts)... so I'll answer in pieces.

Ward vs. Swann - Probably what sealed my fate as a Steeler fan was Lynn Swann's Super Bowl MVP performance in SB X against the Cowgirls. That slow motion acrobatic catch that's been immortalized on celluloid has got to be one of the greatest sports footages ever captured. After that, Swannie was god-like to an 8 year old Asian immigrant fresh off the boat. All those teams and several championships, helped endear Swann and crew to not only me but I'm sure millions of fans. How could you not choose such a legend....

But I can. In my humble opinion, Hines Ward is the epitome of what it is to be a Pittsburgh Steeler. The underdog card has been his moniker and this has helped propel him to statistically surpass all Steeler WRs to ever wear the uniform, including Swann. But its not all about the numbers. Its about the grit, the passion, recklessness in which he plays the position. He's a blue collar badazz and has never minded taking the back seat to the running game (in years past). He's been a great professional and has played every down of his career.

Words can't even begin to describe his toughness... so I won't even try. The list of MRI's, CT-Scans, X-rays and countless of doctor exams that have been rendered due to a football player's encounter with Ward, is yet another testament to his legacy. The subsequent IRE that he's generated from opposing teams and their respective fan bases... more proof.

Bottom line: Ward over Swann

more later....

RuthlessBurgher
07-13-2009, 10:56 PM
I've been wanting to write in this thread since I read it yesterday, but I've worked 30 hours in 2 days and I have a 16 hours tomorrow with the big move. Not to mention Thr-Sat. (my normal shifts)... so I'll answer in pieces.

Ward vs. Swann - Probably what sealed my fate as a Steeler fan was Lynn Swann's Super Bowl MVP performance in SB X against the Cowgirls. That slow motion acrobatic catch that's been immortalized on celluloid has got to be one of the greatest sports footages ever captured. After that, Swannie was god-like to an 8 year old Asian immigrant fresh off the boat. All those teams and several championships, helped endear Swann and crew to not only me but I'm sure millions of fans. How could you not choose such a legend....

But I can. In my humble opinion, Hines Ward is the epitome of what it is to be a Pittsburgh Steeler. The underdog card has been his moniker and this has helped propel him to statistically surpass all Steeler WRs to ever wear the uniform, including Swann. But its not all about the numbers. Its about the grit, the passion, recklessness in which he plays the position. He's a blue collar badazz and has never minded taking the back seat to the running game (in years past). He's been a great professional and has played every down of his career.

Words can't even begin to describe his toughness... so I won't even try. The list of MRI's, CT-Scans, X-rays and countless of doctor exams that have been rendered due to a football player's encounter with Ward, is yet another testament to his legacy. The subsequent IRE that he's generated from opposing teams and their respective fan bases... more proof.

Bottom line: Ward over Swann

more later....

Hines' Clone doesn't appear to approve of Swannie in this pic:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l50/ropewalk_2006/RonandSwannAS.jpg

:lol:

Lonbull
07-14-2009, 12:51 AM
I can never do these type of comparisons because it is Know vs. Unknown.

Still would have a hard time, but I think this would be a more true comparison and fairer contest.

Chachi -I certainly didn't intend for there to be a "right" answer to these questions - or perhaps I should write that there isn't a "wrong" answer to these questions - because there is the element still of the unknown.

However the comparisions are strictly intended to stir up a debate between two great players and see where Steeler fans stand -

I think Ramblinjim summed up my thinking when he said that his answers could change depending on his mood - but as I said I just wanted to see where die hard fans stood on these players.

That being said the Woodley vs. Ham comparision is definitely "too" soon, as it seems there isn't anyone ready to catapult Woodley into that arguement. I just couldn't figure out a fair challenge for Woodley - Gildon? But Gildon owns that All Time Sack record. Joey Porter? But Porter is still playing - or maybe Levon Kirkland - but Kirkland played a different role in the defense and I'm not sure that's a fair comparision to either player - that would just be more of a popularity contest.

I'll also add one more thing that I've read in this thread regarding Blount and Lambert. I didn't choose the "versus" players because I thought they were necessarily the best Steelers players - I tried to choose two players who would give writers a chance to really think out their answers.

IMO - Lambert and Blount would dominate (for good reason) anybody you would compare them too that played a similiar position.

L.B.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
07-14-2009, 12:52 AM
This thread goes out to my friend A.A. who is suffering from offseason maddness.

I've decided to introduce an idea of

Then Versus Now.

The idea is that I will take two Steelers (one Steeler from the past, and one from the present) and ask for you to choose which one you prefer. Since the off-season is slow and we could all use a good debate please explain in detail why you prefer one player over the other.

Since a few of these Steelers are Hall of Famers you must consider the "potential" of the current Steelers and ask yourself - does a certain players potential give them an edge over a player who is already finished.

I'm also very interested in what your deciding factor was in choosing one player over the other.

Super Bowl rings may come into play as well - however you also must consider how some of these players would have performed during the hey-day of the 70's.

I look forward to your answers - here are the players.

1st - Terry Bradshaw vs. Ben Roethlisberger - Bubby Brister

2nd - Rod Woodson vs. Troy Polamalu - Hank Poteat

3rd - Greg Lloyd vs. James Harrison - Kendrell Bell

4th - Lynn Swann vs. Hines Ward - Weegie Thompson

5th - Barry Foster vs. Willie Parker - Tim Worley

6th - Jack Ham vs Lamarr Woodley - Alonzo Jackson



L.B.

Chachi
07-14-2009, 06:55 AM
I can never do these type of comparisons because it is Know vs. Unknown.

Still would have a hard time, but I think this would be a more true comparison and fairer contest.

Chachi -I certainly didn't intend for there to be a "right" answer to these questions - or perhaps I should write that there isn't a "wrong" answer to these questions - because there is the element still of the unknown.

L.B.

Oh, I know.

It's just the reason I have a hard time comparing/debating players/teams or players/players from different eras and/or debating who is better between someone who has long finished his career vs. someone who is just in the middle or is only starting.

I do better at these when comparing equals. When the era is over and our current, future Hall of Famers careers are over, I will chime in with who was better Terry or Ben, Rod or Troy, Harrison or Lloyd, etc.

Just a personal thing.

Don't even get me started about the great team battles, ie. 70's Steelers vs. 90's Cowboys, stuff like that. I do even worse with those. :oops:

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
07-14-2009, 11:45 AM
While neither player plays now, I agree with those who would choose to compare Woodson with Blount. I would also choose Woodson as he had rules changed for him - that counts for something.

The comparison for Troy would be Carnell Lake. Both great players, and it is closer that you might think. Lake was much better in coverage - as witnessed by the way he replaced Woodson at CB in '95 and went to the PB as a CB that year.

But Troy does things that no other SS does - or has ever done. He is the spark plug that makes this engine go. His abilities allow Lebeau to design schemes that other DCs can only dream about.

Lake was a pure SS - hit like a truck and could cover anyone, but Troy is a hybrid who wins by - a hair. :lol:

RuthlessBurgher
07-14-2009, 12:06 PM
While neither player plays now, I agree with those who would choose to compare Woodson with Blount. I would also choose Woodson as he had rules changed for him - that counts for something.

The comparison for Troy would be Carnell Lake. Both great players, and it is closer that you might think. Lake was much better in coverage - as witnessed by the way he replaced Woodson at CB in '95 and went to the PB as a CB that year.

But Troy does things that no other SS does - or has ever done. He is the spark plug that makes this engine go. His abilities allow Lebeau to design schemes that other DCs can only dream about.

Lake was a pure SS - hit like a truck and could cover anyone, but Troy is a hybrid who wins by - a hair. :lol:

Troy's got Lake by quite a few hairs...

http://www.post-gazette.com/images2/2000114carnell175.jpg http://pittsburghcurly.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/polamalu.jpg

:P

MeetJoeGreene
07-14-2009, 12:34 PM
Part 1 of my answer.

Ham vs. Woodley.
This was the easiest (for me) and I will take Ham. Maybe because I remember him (i.e. Old)... but he is talked about as one of the great outside LB of all time. Woodley doesn't have enough of a body of work to eclipse him... yet. I hope in 5 years, this is a much tougher question.

Ben vs. Terry.
At this point, I have flipped and will take Ben. Terry had the better arm (it was just SICK), but I don't think he ever had to carry a team quite like Ben.

The remainder require more thought....

papillon
07-14-2009, 01:40 PM
1st - Terry Bradshaw vs. Ben Roethlisberger

Terry may be the best big game quarterback of all time, was tougher than nails and won 4 Super Bowls. He also played in an era when finding open receivers was much more difficult due to the rules at the time. If I had to pick one of them to lead my team to victory day-in and day-out I'll take Ben. He's a proven winner, since, no other quarterback has achieved as many wins in their first 5 years as Ben as accumulated in his first five. A sputtering offense that needs to score a TD or move into field goal range seems to miraculously resurrect itself when Ben steps in the huddle.

2nd - Rod Woodson vs. Troy Polamalu

Two of the all-time greats at their positions. They each get burned occasionally, but, each can change a game at a moments notice. They both played with reckless abandon and their team mates respected each of them. Each played special teams at one time or another and played well. Woodson transitioned from corner to safety and won a Super Bowl; he gets the nod here based something as ridiculously irrelevant as that.

3rd - Greg Lloyd vs. James Harrison

Both are meaner than mean and as intimidating a presence on a football field as there can be. Harrison will have some work to do rack up the stats of Lloyd and they'll both end of short of the HOF (probably). I also believe that when Harrison rushes the passer he is almost impossible to block without holding him and while Lloyd garnered many sacks he was blockable at times. I have yet to see a tackle manhandle Silverback. I take Silverback based on his nickname and ability to get under a tackles pads with ease.


4th - Lynn Swann vs. Hines Ward

D@mn Lonbull they get tougher with each comparison. The graceful tough as nails Swann or the bruising tough as nails Ward? The Steelers have never had a more complete WR than Ward and probably haven't had a game changer like Swann, well, since Swann played. They both played on teams that wanted to bludgeon the opponent with the running game and score points through the air once they were beat into submission. Ward blocks better than Swann, but, both were clutch; I'll take Ward in this one.

5th - Barry Foster vs. Willie Parker

Underachiever (Foster) vs overachiever (Parker) makes for a bit easier debate with myself. I'll take Parker here, I've liked Willie since he became a Steeler and I still like him now. He's been nothing but a Steeler type player and continues to push himself, expecting more from himself than what the coaches expect. Foster was a $100 talent with a 10 cent attitude and personal life. He was an awesome back for the Steelkers though. I'll take Parker.

6th - Jack Ham vs Lamarr Woodley

The technician (Ham) vs just plain old nasty (Woodley). The only game in which I can remember Ham looking horrible was against the Bills when OJ ran for 200 yards. Jack Ham actually came up clutching air on a few tackles. Woodley benefits from Harrison in the same way that Ham benefitted from Russell and Lambert. Two great players, but one doesn't have a large enough body of work to supplant one of the top 5 all-time OLBs in the NFL. Give me Ham.

There are a few others you could have included: Webster vs Dawson, Noll vs Cowher or Cowher vs Tomlin and there are some secondary players that could also be included: Shell vs Lake or Lake vs Wagner or Rocky vs Kreider

Good thread by the way, difficult, but entertaining. :lol:

Pappy

MeetJoeGreene
07-14-2009, 02:33 PM
Pap -- good call on the Webster vs. Dawson. That would be tough, although I would take Dawson (by a hair).


Here is Part 2 of my answer:

Hines vs. Swann.

It depends. Totally squishy answer, I know. But it would depend on who the OTHER receiver was that would best compliment the ability. I have always may the contention that Stallworth/Ward would be greater thand Stallworth/Swann. But if there was somebody Blue-collar, like Ward, already present, I would take Swann. If I had to take 1 of them, with a gun to my head, blindly............I would take.............Swann. Barely.

RuthlessBurgher
07-14-2009, 03:37 PM
Pap -- good call on the Webster vs. Dawson. That would be tough, although I would take Dawson (by a hair).

Dirt appears to have Iron Mike by more than just a hair (although not as many hairs as the Troy-Carnell comparison).

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/sports/webster_mike0924.jpg http://www.profootballhof.com/assets/hof/Dawson_Dermontti_HS.jpg

flippy
07-14-2009, 06:18 PM
I can never do these type of comparisons because it is Know vs. Unknown.

Still would have a hard time, but I think this would be a more true comparison and fairer contest.

Chachi -I certainly didn't intend for there to be a "right" answer to these questions - or perhaps I should write that there isn't a "wrong" answer to these questions - because there is the element still of the unknown.

However the comparisions are strictly intended to stir up a debate between two great players and see where Steeler fans stand -

I think Ramblinjim summed up my thinking when he said that his answers could change depending on his mood - but as I said I just wanted to see where die hard fans stood on these players.

That being said the Woodley vs. Ham comparision is definitely "too" soon, as it seems there isn't anyone ready to catapult Woodley into that arguement. I just couldn't figure out a fair challenge for Woodley - Gildon? But Gildon owns that All Time Sack record. Joey Porter? But Porter is still playing - or maybe Levon Kirkland - but Kirkland played a different role in the defense and I'm not sure that's a fair comparision to either player - that would just be more of a popularity contest.

I'll also add one more thing that I've read in this thread regarding Blount and Lambert. I didn't choose the "versus" players because I thought they were necessarily the best Steelers players - I tried to choose two players who would give writers a chance to really think out their answers.

IMO - Lambert and Blount would dominate (for good reason) anybody you would compare them too that played a similiar position.

L.B.


I thought the Woodley vs Ham comparison was great. I've been impressed how much field Woodley can cover for such a big guy. My gut would say compare Woodley to Kevin Green who was a pass rushing phenom just like Wood. But Wood is so much more complete. Wood has an amazing start to his career. And I think he could actually be better than Ham one day as his game develops. I liked the comparison.

I would have went with Blount versus Woodson. It's really hard to compare a CB to a SS. They have different impacts on the game. That said, I think Troy P versus Lambert would make another interesting discussion. Those 2 guys have a similar impact on their respective defenses. Much like Lambert, Troy is the guy you game plan around on the best defense in the league.

And I think I could make a case to reverse all my picks today. There's even a case for Woodley. He plays on the outside in a 3-4. Ham covered lots of ground in coverage and was the best, but he didn't have to chase the QB like Wood does. And that can wear a LB down. So seeing Woodley in coverage right after rushing is amazing athletically. That may make him more impressive than Ham from that perspective.

TallyStiller
07-14-2009, 06:43 PM
GREAT topic! Perfect offseason fare. Hats off.

Bradshaw... like some here have said, body of work. Ben's gotta convince me... not that he can't, just that he hasn't.

Woodson... youngest player on the 75th year anniversary team. All time best in the league's history, if he doesn't hurt the knee mid career.

Harrison... talent around Lloyd was, IMHO, superior. Greene was, at the time, one of the league's all time sackers. Chad Brown was an ILB there who went on to be a Pro Bowler at OLB, and Levon Kirkland was tremendous when he was playing at UNDER 3 bills.

Swann... far more significant a deep threat, and better all around than he's generally given credit for. He was very tough over the middle, too.

FWP... Foster gets an INC due to injury. I think those '90's teams win titles if he stays healthy - for a year there, it was Barry v Barry on the national stage - and to be compared to Barry Sanders is pretty high praise.

Ham... not too hard here. Ham was maybe the best cover backer in the history of the league. Woodley has skills for a guy his size, but can't compare... then again, this one is more applesand oranges than any of the others, because Woodley's pass rush skill set is better simply by virtue of the extra size that helps him take on linemen.

fezziwig
07-14-2009, 07:31 PM
I can remember other team coaches, players and sports writters mentioning that, teams would train their linebackers with films on jack Ham. Some other teams coach said in an interview, " Ham is so good we train our linebackers with playing films of Ham. He is never out of position, reads the offense better than any player he has seen before and his technique is perfect, just perfect. " I'll never forget that interview, just wish I could remember the coach that said it.

ramblinjim
07-15-2009, 09:45 AM
For being as big as he is, I also remember Woodley playing pretty well in some coverages last year. When his contract starts to come up in a couple of years he could be one of those guys that we look at and think "Woodley? Harrison? Woodley? Harrison?". If they stay healthy, Woodley and Timmons could be a really good looking future for our linebacking corps.

ramblinjim
07-15-2009, 09:45 AM
still taking Ham though.

Lonbull
07-15-2009, 02:55 PM
I would have went with Blount versus Woodson. It's really hard to compare a CB to a SS. They have different impacts on the game. That said, I think Troy P versus Lambert would make another interesting discussion. Those 2 guys have a similar impact on their respective defenses. Much like Lambert, Troy is the guy you game plan around on the best defense in the league.

Flippy -

Perhaps the reason I didn't pitt anyone against Jack Lambert is because IMO he's in a class by himself. His attitude, his mad nasty streak, his ability - even the fact that when he came to the Steelers he had a bit of an underdog quality to him, that often endears fans to players - I just don't think there's anyone to fairly match him against that plays or has played for the Steelers in some time.

I think James Harrison is a very fair comparision - but James won't be able to amass the game time that Lambert did.

The main reason I focused on Troy versus Rod is that both players possess that "game changing" / "Game Saving" ability.

When Rod was playing and the Steelers needed a big play from the defense it seemed that he either delievered it or it didn't happen at all. I think the same can be said for Troy Polamalu. And that's really where the comparision began for me.

L.B.

flippy
07-15-2009, 06:32 PM
I would have went with Blount versus Woodson. It's really hard to compare a CB to a SS. They have different impacts on the game. That said, I think Troy P versus Lambert would make another interesting discussion. Those 2 guys have a similar impact on their respective defenses. Much like Lambert, Troy is the guy you game plan around on the best defense in the league.

Flippy -

Perhaps the reason I didn't pitt anyone against Jack Lambert is because IMO he's in a class by himself. His attitude, his mad nasty streak, his ability - even the fact that when he came to the Steelers he had a bit of an underdog quality to him, that often endears fans to players - I just don't think there's anyone to fairly match him against that plays or has played for the Steelers in some time.

I think James Harrison is a very fair comparision - but James won't be able to amass the game time that Lambert did.

The main reason I focused on Troy versus Rod is that both players possess that "game changing" / "Game Saving" ability.

When Rod was playing and the Steelers needed a big play from the defense it seemed that he either delievered it or it didn't happen at all. I think the same can be said for Troy Polamalu. And that's really where the comparision began for me.

L.B.

Jack H was better than Lambert. I know many that would pick him over Lambert, including Lambert.

Heck I thought Ernie Holmes was better than Mean Joe for a season ;)

MeetJoeGreene
07-16-2009, 04:14 PM
I would have went with Blount versus Woodson. It's really hard to compare a CB to a SS. They have different impacts on the game. That said, I think Troy P versus Lambert would make another interesting discussion. Those 2 guys have a similar impact on their respective defenses. Much like Lambert, Troy is the guy you game plan around on the best defense in the league.

Flippy -

Perhaps the reason I didn't pitt anyone against Jack Lambert is because IMO he's in a class by himself. His attitude, his mad nasty streak, his ability - even the fact that when he came to the Steelers he had a bit of an underdog quality to him, that often endears fans to players - I just don't think there's anyone to fairly match him against that plays or has played for the Steelers in some time.

I think James Harrison is a very fair comparision - but James won't be able to amass the game time that Lambert did.

The main reason I focused on Troy versus Rod is that both players possess that "game changing" / "Game Saving" ability.

When Rod was playing and the Steelers needed a big play from the defense it seemed that he either delievered it or it didn't happen at all. I think the same can be said for Troy Polamalu. And that's really where the comparision began for me.

L.B.

Jack H was better than Lambert. I know many that would pick him over Lambert, including Lambert.

Heck I thought Ernie Holmes was better than Mean Joe for a season ;)

Blasphemy and fightin' words, Mr. Clown!!!!

RuthlessBurgher
07-16-2009, 04:18 PM
I would have went with Blount versus Woodson. It's really hard to compare a CB to a SS. They have different impacts on the game. That said, I think Troy P versus Lambert would make another interesting discussion. Those 2 guys have a similar impact on their respective defenses. Much like Lambert, Troy is the guy you game plan around on the best defense in the league.

Flippy -

Perhaps the reason I didn't pitt anyone against Jack Lambert is because IMO he's in a class by himself. His attitude, his mad nasty streak, his ability - even the fact that when he came to the Steelers he had a bit of an underdog quality to him, that often endears fans to players - I just don't think there's anyone to fairly match him against that plays or has played for the Steelers in some time.

I think James Harrison is a very fair comparision - but James won't be able to amass the game time that Lambert did.

The main reason I focused on Troy versus Rod is that both players possess that "game changing" / "Game Saving" ability.

When Rod was playing and the Steelers needed a big play from the defense it seemed that he either delievered it or it didn't happen at all. I think the same can be said for Troy Polamalu. And that's really where the comparision began for me.

L.B.

Jack H was better than Lambert. I know many that would pick him over Lambert, including Lambert.

Heck I thought Ernie Holmes was better than Mean Joe for a season ;)

Blasphemy and fightin' words, Mr. Clown!!!!

Fight, Fight, FIGHT!!!

http://trimaxs.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/burger_king_vs_ronald_mcdonald_by_tpollockjr-232x300.jpg

:lol:

flippy
07-16-2009, 07:04 PM
I would have went with Blount versus Woodson. It's really hard to compare a CB to a SS. They have different impacts on the game. That said, I think Troy P versus Lambert would make another interesting discussion. Those 2 guys have a similar impact on their respective defenses. Much like Lambert, Troy is the guy you game plan around on the best defense in the league.

Flippy -

Perhaps the reason I didn't pitt anyone against Jack Lambert is because IMO he's in a class by himself. His attitude, his mad nasty streak, his ability - even the fact that when he came to the Steelers he had a bit of an underdog quality to him, that often endears fans to players - I just don't think there's anyone to fairly match him against that plays or has played for the Steelers in some time.

I think James Harrison is a very fair comparision - but James won't be able to amass the game time that Lambert did.

The main reason I focused on Troy versus Rod is that both players possess that "game changing" / "Game Saving" ability.

When Rod was playing and the Steelers needed a big play from the defense it seemed that he either delievered it or it didn't happen at all. I think the same can be said for Troy Polamalu. And that's really where the comparision began for me.

L.B.

Jack H was better than Lambert. I know many that would pick him over Lambert, including Lambert.

Heck I thought Ernie Holmes was better than Mean Joe for a season ;)

Blasphemy and fightin' words, Mr. Clown!!!!

But MeetJoe is better than both of them in my book ;)

Lonbull
07-20-2009, 09:04 PM
1st - Ben Roethlisberger

I thought that Ghost made a great arguement by pointing out Super Bowl wins and taking Bradshaw. However I'm picking Ben because I think he's more important to our Super Bowl Victories than Terry was. I'm also taking Ben because I think he's performed so many firsts you have to think he's got a lot more up his sleeve.

Youngest QB to win a Super Bowl, First QB to win 16 games in his rookie year, First QB to win three road playoff games....etc.

Ben has done all of this with a sub-par offense around him.

Willie Parker was in his first year as a starter in that Super Bowl - a Super Bowl we won with Hines Ward, Randel El and Cedric Wilson at WR. This compared to Franco, Rocky, Swann and Stallworth?

In Ben's second Super Bowl he had an Off. Line that has to be one of the worst Off. Lines we've had since 1999 when Dirt Dawson got hurt, I don't care what anyone says that 2008 line was ugly!

This one goes to Ben.

2nd - Rod Woodson -

This one was by far the toughest question for me. Troy Polamalu does things on the field that can take your breath away. His shoestring interception in the snow versus San Diego was mind boggling - the fact that he scored the winning TD with what seemed like blinding speed (which was taken away, only to be reversed again later then next day) in the same San Diego game is something I'll never forget. The fact that some people thought this guy was going to be a bust is just laughable now. When the ball is tipped in the air - I just expect #43 to be the guy running in the opposite direction with it.

But I'm going with Woodson, because after a long debate - I believe Rod was the much better tackler. Both players could change a game if the opposing QB was dumb enough to throw it in their direction, and I believe both players occasionally would pull miracles out of their bag of tricks to put a W on the board for the Steelers - but if memory serves me right - Rod was just a better tackler, and it's one of the basics for a defender.

Troy (hopefully) will finish his career in Pittsburgh - but I can't hold that against Rod Woodson knowing the history behind his departure.

3rd - James Harrison

I think the interesting thing about James Harrison is that he so often goes for the "strip" against a Quarterback instead of possibly the "Big Hit". He seems like a guy who would enjoy hurting so much he'd forget about playing smart football - however instead he IS the guy who plays smart football.

Harrison is just one of those Steelers that in a short time will make such a huge impression.

In my book Greg Lloyd is a very difficult standard to achieve - he was truly vicious - but in this case I give Harrison the benefit of being just as mean, but making more of his opportunities.


4th - Lynn Swann

Okay did I just write that the Rod vs Troy one was the hardest - because I lied, Swann vs. Hines is the hardest for me - but I'm going with the Lynn Swann.

Lynn Swann invented the Highlight Reel - and his biggest moments were often Super Bowls. I have friends who are Cowboy fans (unlucky I know) and I've seen them curl up in the fetal position when they start showing Lynn Swann making catch after catch after remarkable catch.

I can't take anything away from Hines Ward because he hustles, and he is everything (and more) you could ask from a Pittsburgh Steeler - for most of his career he has been my favorite Steeler - however (in my book) watching Lynn Swann catch a football was like watching Michelangelo paint.

Both men worked very hard at gifts they had to make them better - with Swann it was grace, with Hines it's punishment. I'm giving it to Swann only because he did something I haven't seen since he left.

5th - Willie Parker

IMO Barry Foster was the "return" of the running game - (or at least he was the promise of the return of the running game) for the Pittsburgh Steelers. It just seemed like through the 80's we had lost our way from the great running game that Franco and Rocky had given the Steelers.

And then along comes Barry Foster - and it looked like he was going to be like....well like what we got with Jerome Bettis.

Willie Parker - is just a great Steeler story and I'll never forget his Super Bowl run against Seattle. Maybe it was mostly his Off. Line's work - but when he shot through that hole and Seattle players one by one started to fall behind him and lose any angle they might have - it was really the first time I could feel the drought of Super Bowls being lifted.

It was such a magical year for him - I think it's interesting that we got him in the 2004 draft along with Ben.


6th - Jack Ham vs Lamarr Woodley - too soon.


L.B.

ramblinjim
07-20-2009, 10:49 PM
These are all really tough. Fun thing to play with though and my ideas may well change depending on my mood.

1.) Bradshaw. This one is tough for me because I wouldn't take any player currently in the league over Big Ben, not even Brady. But Terry went through hell his first years in the league, he suffered season ending injuries, he was benched, his stats were never great yet her persevered and brought home four rings. Ben is the man and in two years or two days my mind may change but for now, I'll take Terry just slightly.

2.) Rod. Another brutal choice. As an Illinois fan, I've watched Woodson play since he was in college at Purdue and have always been impressed with his play. He is rightfully a first ballot hall of famer and even played safety at a very high level after leaving Pittsburgh. I only wish we could have gotten him a ring. Troy is awesome and may well be in the "best to play the position" discussion if he can stay healthy but for right now, I'll take Rod Woodson.

3.) I loved Greg Lloyd and his 'tude but I'm going to take James Harrison here. James has fought through adversity, worked hard, kept at it and is now the reigning defensive MVP and the most feared man on the field. Lloyd was feared because he was big, mean and talked some serious smack a la "Who is Joe Namath? This is a guy who, if he played in the league today, I'd probably just go hit him late and see what he did, just for the hell of it. Joe Namath can go to hell; he can kiss my @ss." Ahhhhhh but Silverback..... Silverback is feared because he is the baddest man on the field at any given time. The best left tackles in the league have to hold him, running backs are scared of him and he doesn't talk a lot of crap. I hope he wasn't a one year wonder flash in the pan, I hope he continues to scare the hell out of people. I have a little man love for James Harrison

4.) Hines. I just love the way he plays. Swann has four rings and is in the Hall of Fame but I think if Hines played for the 70's Steelers he would have had the rings and he would have knocked Jack Tatum out of the league. Or he would have played defensive back and Noll would have just let him kill people. Hines Ward is one of my top 5 favorite Steelers ever, so I'm biased.

5.) Willie. Barry was the best in the league for one season, afterwards not so much. Willie is what he is but he's played well and fought hard for us now for a few years and I'm going to take him here. If Barry would have stayed healthy for a number of years, we may never have gotten the Bus too.

6.) Ham. Jack Ham's body of work put him in the hall of fame as one of the best line backers to ever play the game. As much as I hope Woodley becomes all Ham was and more I just can't bring myself to put him in his league yet. Woodley = very good to great player, Jack Ham = one of the best to lace them up.



I'm going to play my own Devil's advocate:

BEN: Bradshaw won more Superbowls and he was a tough SOB but let's start lining up some facts here. Bradshaw handed the ball off to two guys that are in the hall of fame. Ben handed the ball off to an aging and less effective Jerome Bettis and a kid named Willie Parker who although fast and a great Steeler is not going into the HOF. Then, while Ben was throwing to Hines Ward, a guy that would be an excellent slot receiver ala Wes Welker, Randle El, another excellent slot receiver, Nate Washington, a great practice team guy and Santonio Holmes who could one day become a decent number one receiver...... Bradshaw was throwing to two Hall of Fame wide receivers. Bradshaw may have been tough as nails but Ben isn't exactly some sissy. While Ben was getting killed by blitz happy teams like Philly and teams that couldn't get sacks against highschool teams like Cleveland, Terry was being protected by....oh an oline with the second best center to ever play the game...

TROY: Rod was a great player but when it is all said and done Troy (who was that idiot that called him Bustamalu?) is going to be in the "top 3 ever to play that position" conversation. Rod was a great corner but not top three ever.

Lloyd: James Harrison can be great but right now he just doesn't hve the punishing book of work that Greg Lloyd has going for him. Lloyd was a crusher out there and scared the hell out of people for five years. James has been doing it for two. Let's see how the next few season pan out for JH

Swan: THis one is tough for me but Swan invented the hi-light reel. His acrobatic catches are still on NFL films and still fun to watch. My fear is that while Swan will be known as a Hall of Famer with four rings, Hines will be known as a receiver that could catch and block very well.

Foster brought back Smash Mouth Football to the Steelers. He was the first of three backs that, behind a good Oline beat the crap out of opposing teams for years. Foster was he first, I'll give him credit for that one.

.................... I just can't take Wood over Ham. Wood is the man and has Potential written all over him but to take him over one of the best linebackers ever? I don't think so.

I'm a little tired; this wasn' a great effort on my part.

Lonbull
10-08-2009, 10:11 PM
I noticed two "Who's Better" Threads taking place so I thought I'd bump this thread - because a number of posters have already chimed in on the subject.

L.B.

Chadman
10-08-2009, 11:33 PM
These Pro-Bowl "Who's Better" contests are too easy.

Chadman offers you the challenge- Who's better between..

CHRIS CONRAD vs KRIS FARRIS

Mike Tomzcak vs Charlie Batch

Bruce Davis vs Zo Jackson

Lee Mays vs Danny Farmer

Eric Taylor vs Shaun Nua

Jason Simmons vs Myron Bell

Have at it!