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Ozey74
07-10-2009, 11:15 PM
Not that I care what he thinks but here they are:


Culter, McNabb, Brees, Manning, & Brady.


Roethlisberger has twice the moxy of any of these chumps. The "no respect" thing is a double edge sword. I hate that he doesn't get the credit that he deserves, but the lack of recogniziton has got to piss him off.

SteelTorch
07-10-2009, 11:44 PM
Haven't you heard? You have to pass the ball at least 35 times a game to be considered "great". :roll:

Ozey74
07-10-2009, 11:50 PM
Haven't you heard? You have to pass the ball at least 35 times a game to be considered "great". :roll:


Seriously! Manning sucks. Had he been drafted by a team with an outdoor stadium that was in a cold climate, he wouldn't be considered an elite QB.


He puts up his monster stats when all his ducks are in a row........at home and/or against crap teams in decent weather.

steelsnis
07-11-2009, 08:22 AM
yeah, i saw Sapp give his list. They asked him why Big Ben wasn't in his Top 5 and he said that he didn't have the stats.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! What a joke! He then went on to say how clutch Ben is and how much of a winner he is but to get in Warren's top 5 you gotta have the stats.

I honestly don't have an issue with Manning, Brady or Brees on the list, tho I'd have Ben ahead of Brees. But Cutler and McNabb???

So Cutler has 4000 yards passing but can't win games, hates his teammates and whines his way outta Denver and he's on your list? Haha great criteria. I actually like McNabb as a QB but it's hard to put him ahead of Ben at this point. It's not like he's had crappy teams around him his whole career. The Eagles have been damn good for the better part of a decade but they just can't get the job done in the clutch.

Guess who can???

stlrz d
07-11-2009, 11:33 AM
Sapp and Faulk routinely refer to Ben as a double agent QB. What they mean by that is he gives the other team the ball as much as he gives it to his guys...or something like that.

Cutler has 37 picks in 3 seasons...and he only started 5 games as a rookie.

Brees has 99 picks in 7 seasons (I didn't include his rookie season because he only played one game and didn't start).

McNabb has 90 picks in 10 seasons.

Manning has 165 (that's not a typo) picks in 11 seasons.

Brady has 86 picks in 7 seasons. I didn't include his rookie season (1 game, no starts) or 2008 (missed nearly the entire season due to injury).

Ben has 69 in 5 seasons, with 23 coming in that dreaded '06 season.

Breaking it down as picks per games started (regular season only), that translates to:

Cutler - 37 starts, 37 picks. 1 per start average.

Ben - 71 starts, 69 picks. .97 per start average.

Manning - 176 starts, 165 picks. .94 per start average.

Brees - 106 starts, 99 picks. .93 per start average.

Brady - 110 starts, 86 picks. .78 per start average.

McNabb - 128 starts, 90 picks. .70 per start average.

I know you can't simply take away that '06 season, but it will forever remain debatable that had it not been for the cycle accident and appendectomy that Ben would have been more around the 12 pick mark, which is his average excluding the '06 season. So had that been the case that would then put him at 71 starts, 57 picks...or .83 picks per start.

So why is Ben a "double agent" but Cutler, Manning and Brees aren't? I guess that's one of life's great mysteries...or it's that Sapp and Faulk don't like Ben for some reason and therefore can't be objective when it comes to ranking him.

Bottom line is this - only one QB on that list has more rings than Ben. Ben's a winner. He just wins games...which is what matters most.

stlrz d
07-11-2009, 11:54 AM
And if someone better at math would break the numbers down by number of picks per 25 pass attempts (or something similar), I would bet that Ben still compares favorably.

I say that because some will say those other offenses throw the ball more.

Also, the Pats and Eagles both run the WCO, which imo, explains why McNabb and Brady have fewer picks. Brady's YPA (as someone who shall remain nameless was correct in pointing out) took a dramatic upturn when the Pats acquired Moss.

Steelgal
07-11-2009, 06:52 PM
I swear, fantasy football has ruined some analysts thinking...... If you don't put up huge numbers, ala Manning or Brady, then you're not elite.

Ben will never be a stat leader, but I'd take him over any of the Prima donnas anyday. He has intangibles that can't be measured.

Sapp is and will always be an idiot :Hater

ramblinjim
07-11-2009, 07:10 PM
Michael Wilbon from the Washington Post says that if he had to take a quarterback to win a game that his life depended on it, he would take Ben any day.

It's hard to argue against Brady but Ben is as clutch as anyone. Let Cutler and McNabb actually win some playoff games before we call them clutch.

BURGH86STEEL
07-11-2009, 08:13 PM
I don't think it is a knock on Ben if someone thinks he is the 5th or 6th best QB in the league. He did not play like a top 5 QB last season. I think that Manning, Brady, and Brees are clearly better than Ben. After that, there are a number of guys that can go into the 4th and 5th spots. It all depends on how someone wants to rank those QB's.

stlrz d
07-12-2009, 08:04 AM
I don't think it is a knock on Ben if someone thinks he is the 5th or 6th best QB in the league. He did not play like a top 5 QB last season. I think that Manning, Brady, and Brees are clearly better than Ben. After that, there are a number of guys that can go into the 4th and 5th spots. It all depends on how someone wants to rank those QB's.

That's too bad.

BURGH86STEEL
07-12-2009, 08:09 AM
I don't think it is a knock on Ben if someone thinks he is the 5th or 6th best QB in the league. He did not play like a top 5 QB last season. I think that Manning, Brady, and Brees are clearly better than Ben. After that, there are a number of guys that can go into the 4th and 5th spots. It all depends on how someone wants to rank those QB's.

That's too bad.

Not really.

Oviedo
07-12-2009, 08:16 AM
I swear, fantasy football has ruined some analysts thinking...... If you don't put up huge numbers, ala Manning or Brady, then you're not elite.

Ben will never be a stat leader, but I'd take him over any of the Prima donnas anyday. He has intangibles that can't be measured.

Sapp is and will always be an idiot :Hater

Fantasy football has runined the perception of the NFL by many, even posters on this board which is probably one of the most knowledgeable there is. They fail to understand the nuances of the game and rely on stats as the determination of success. Stats lie.

This list by Sapp is nothing more than a list of the 5 biggest stats generators. Sapp has just fallen into the trap of the vast majority of the sports media who have gotten lazy and so they look for easy sources of information to generate the increased volume of stories that the 24/7 television and internet media requires. What is easier than going to a list of stats and "inventing" stories out of that?

fezziwig
07-12-2009, 10:31 AM
I swear, fantasy football has ruined some analysts thinking...... If you don't put up huge numbers, ala Manning or Brady, then you're not elite.

Ben will never be a stat leader, but I'd take him over any of the Prima donnas anyday. He has intangibles that can't be measured.

Sapp is and will always be an idiot :Hater


Perfect ! :tt2 :tt2 :tt2

Starlifter
07-12-2009, 10:48 AM
if the concept of 'double agent' is legitimate, brett favre would be at the top of the list - yet they never seem to mention him. interesting. there are so many stats related to QB it is impossible to use them to decide who is best, who is top 5 etc. for every stat we give about ben, some jaggov will give another about manning. it's nothing but a sportsfan circlejerk, lotta effort - useless results.

bottom line for me, the only stat i care about is wins and championships. taking solace in total yards and completion percentage is something bungle fans do.

msp26505
07-12-2009, 12:00 PM
Fantasy football has runined the perception of the NFL by many, even posters on this board which is probably one of the most knowledgeable there is. They fail to understand the nuances of the game and rely on stats as the determination of success. Stats lie.

This list by Sapp is nothing more than a list of the 5 biggest stats generators. Sapp has just fallen into the trap of the vast majority of the sports media who have gotten lazy and so they look for easy sources of information to generate the increased volume of stories that the 24/7 television and internet media requires. What is easier than going to a list of stats and "inventing" stories out of that?

Mark Twain said it best: "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."

SanAntonioSteelerFan
07-12-2009, 01:57 PM
What about YPA, isn't that the most important QB stat?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

stlrz d
07-12-2009, 04:46 PM
I don't think it is a knock on Ben if someone thinks he is the 5th or 6th best QB in the league. He did not play like a top 5 QB last season. I think that Manning, Brady, and Brees are clearly better than Ben. After that, there are a number of guys that can go into the 4th and 5th spots. It all depends on how someone wants to rank those QB's.

That's too bad.

Not really.

Yes it is, and here's why:


Fantasy football has runined the perception of the NFL by many, even posters on this board which is probably one of the most knowledgeable there is. They fail to understand the nuances of the game and rely on stats as the determination of success. Stats lie.

This list by Sapp is nothing more than a list of the 5 biggest stats generators. Sapp has just fallen into the trap of the vast majority of the sports media who have gotten lazy and so they look for easy sources of information to generate the increased volume of stories that the 24/7 television and internet media requires. What is easier than going to a list of stats and "inventing" stories out of that?

anger 82&95
07-12-2009, 05:57 PM
Cutler??? But what do you expect from a deodorant salesman.

Steelgal
07-12-2009, 07:27 PM
Cutler??? But what do you expect from a deodorant salesman.

Cutler had amazing receivers in Denver. Who does he have now?? No one that really stands out to me. I don't think he'll have the same success, atleast for this year. I hope he falls on his face and gets booed half way through the season.

BURGH86STEEL
07-12-2009, 08:48 PM
[quote=BURGH86STEEL]I don't think it is a knock on Ben if someone thinks he is the 5th or 6th best QB in the league. He did not play like a top 5 QB last season. I think that Manning, Brady, and Brees are clearly better than Ben. After that, there are a number of guys that can go into the 4th and 5th spots. It all depends on how someone wants to rank those QB's.

That's too bad.

Not really.

Yes it is, and here's why:


Fantasy football has runined the perception of the NFL by many, even posters on this board which is probably one of the most knowledgeable there is. They fail to understand the nuances of the game and rely on stats as the determination of success. Stats lie.

This list by Sapp is nothing more than a list of the 5 biggest stats generators. Sapp has just fallen into the trap of the vast majority of the sports media who have gotten lazy and so they look for easy sources of information to generate the increased volume of stories that the 24/7 television and internet media requires. What is easier than going to a list of stats and "inventing" stories out of that?[/quote:tne8nyub]

If it were not for stats, would the Steelers defense be considered the best in the league?

Sorry dude but I don't rely solely on stats to base my opinions. There are uses for stats outside of fantasy football. If used properly and objectively, they can back up one's opinion.

I understand the nuances of the game. One of several reasons the offense struggled last season was because Ben was inconsistent. I don't think Ben played like a top 5 QB last season, with or without stats.

Success can be measured in several ways. There is individual and team success. To some extent, the two can be separated. For example, Brees had one hell of a season. Because the New Orleans defense was not good enough, that team did not make the playoffs.

At this stage of my life, I am not one to get upset over someones opinion of who has the leagues best teams or players. Most times, it is only a person's opinion. That does not make a person an idiot. Last time I checked, being considered a top 5 or 6 player at a position is not a bad thing.

Over the coarse of games, Ben's individual performances were not great. At the end of the day, he was good enough to help this team win 2 SB's. That is all that matters.

So it really is not to bad.

stlrz d
07-12-2009, 09:59 PM
For Burgh86:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 9011900035 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/19/AR2009011900016.html?sid=ST2009011900035)


Big Ben Strikes Again


By Michael Wilbon
Monday, January 19, 2009; Page D01

PITTSBURGH

It's probably not a good thing that the Pittsburgh Steelers and Baltimore Ravens can play each other three times a year. Maybe the NFL, purely for health reasons, should set a two-game maximum. Their third game produced a concussion on the opening kickoff and a frightening knockout in the fourth quarter that led to on-field prayers.
After the latest go-round, Ben Roethlisberger removed his uniform and tape slowly, looking for the contusions he presumed were there. "It just can't get much more brutal than us playing each other," he said. "It's a slugfest, a fight, 12 rounds. It's always that way, violent from start to finish."

Of course, it's easier to talk about when you've won all three violent battles in a year, the third of which sends you and your team to the Super Bowl. It's easier to dissect the game and review the plays when the rookie, Baltimore's Joe Flacco, has thrown three interceptions and you've avoided throwing one to Ed Reed or Ray Lewis. Ben Roethlisberger has done it again, which is to say he's led the Pittsburgh Steelers to the Super Bowl for the second time in four seasons.

It didn't seem possible, after watching the Kurt Warner show in the first conference championship game of the day, that the nightcap could produce as much drama. Yet, it nearly did in its own brutal way.

It was almost predictable, the way Steelers and Ravens despise each other, that tough talk and violent collisions would lead to violence of an extreme nature. The most significant news out of Heinz Field at day's end was that Ravens' running back Willis McGahee had "significant movement in his arms and legs." Only the Ravens and Steelers, in today's offensive-minded football, could slug their way through what will be remembered as defense-only football.

Appropriately, the signature play was authored by a safety. Troy Polamalu's 40-yard interception return for a touchdown delivered victory and a trip to the Super Bowl and what happened thereafter probably just frightened the masses.

The last full day of pro football this season delivered the full range of championship football. The Cardinals' victory over the Philadelphia Eagles, long on passing and catching, was downright civil. The Steelers' victory over Baltimore was anything but.

Flacco, who had received much credit, and deservedly so, for being the first rookie quarterback to win back-to-back playoff games, made the critical mistakes that sabotaged his team and stood in stark contrast to the matinee performance of Arizona's Warner.

Of course, Warner will receive mountains of praise for getting the Cardinals to the Super Bowl, as should be the case, seeing as the Cardinals have been about as awful as you can get in American sports.

But in terms of results, Warner's got nothing on Roethlisberger, who just might be taking Tom Brady's place on the big stage in January and February. Okay, 16 for 33 for 255 yards and one touchdown might not sound like much in the current climate of 70 percent completion rates and 400-yard totals. But Roethlisberger, remember, was going up against the Ravens' defense. The first thing he did was avoid being picked off. Second, he found Santonio Holmes for a 65-yard touchdown on a broken play, the kind that would have people writing love songs about Brady.

"As long as I've watched football, I've never seen anybody extend plays the way Ben does," his backup, Byron Leftwich said. Baltimore's Terrell Suggs said he believes such plays are drawn up that way because Roethlisberger is so big (6 feet 5, 241 pounds) and agile the coaches and linemen presume Big Ben can shake or level the first defender. Told of Suggs's comments, Leftwich laughed and said: "No, no, no. That touchdown pass to [Holmes] wasn't drawn up. It was total ad-lib. Ben was that way in college."

Roethlisberger is big, he's strong, and has taken more punishment than any quarterback in the league the last couple of years, perhaps save Leftwich. He's been carted from the field after hits. He's been carted from the street after a motorcycle accident. He's proven to be nearly indestructible. Oh, and he wins more than anybody out there, even though the talent around him is, well, pretty good. Eli Manning might miss Plaxico Burress, but Big Ben doesn't.

He's 15-4 as a starting quarterback vs. teams in the NFC, which ought to be of great interest to the Cardinals. He's got 24 touchdown passes to only 14 interceptions in those games, with a passer rating of 90.7. He was the difference between the two teams in the AFC championship game, as he is in most games the Steelers have played in his five seasons.

You want to know what quarterbacks in modern history (since 1950) have been better than Roethlisberger through five seasons? None. Nobody. Not Joe Willie Namath, not Joe Montana, nobody. Big Ben is the only quarterback to win 51 games his first five seasons. That's three victories better than Otto Graham, Dan Marino, Tom Brady and John Elway. If I had to win a game to save my own life I'd take Roethlisberger over everybody who played in the NFL this season, and that includes everybody named Manning. It's difficult to understand why the praise is so grudging.

"It's unfair," Leftwich said of the reluctant praise. "Not that it matters to Ben. But the Steelers are seen as a running team. When he first got here it was Bus [Jerome Bettis], then Willie Parker. They didn't throw it a lot. But he wins. They don't throw it 35, 40 times. Ben's capable of doing that if they ask, but they don't. It's run-run-run-run-pass. So what? He wins. I'll take him any day. He can win 10-7 or 37-34."

Roethlisberger and Donovan McNabb do more with less than any other quarterbacks in the NFL. We were reminded of that in the final minute of the first half here on Sunday when Roethlisberger heaved a perfect pass to Limas Sweed, who dropped it as he was going uncovered into the end zone. The ballgame should have been over right then and there at 20-7. Sweed should have been fined for staying on the ground for a minute because he was embarrassed after dropping so beautiful a pass.

Even so, Roethlisberger kept throwing it to him, kept at it patiently, kept taking whatever punishment the Ravens doled out (which was plenty), kept making small plays that added up to a field goal here, another field goal there, until it was 16-7 and the Ravens were two scores down with no way to strike quickly themselves.

In the championship game Sunday, in the cold and wind and swirling snow, all Roethlisberger needed to do was manage the game, not screw it up, which wasn't within Flacco's power. Asked after the game what he learned as a rookie quarterback who lost the AFC championship game to the Patriots, Big Ben said: "Don't turn it over. Flacco will be fine. He faced the best defense in the world tonight; they're ranked that way for a reason."

So now the Steelers have a shot at a second Super Bowl championship in four seasons because of the defense and because of Roethlisberger, who in terms of pregame attention very likely will be overshadowed by Warner.

Yet, the Steelers have to know that at just 26, Roethlisberger's best years should be ahead of him.

stlrz d
07-12-2009, 10:02 PM
And some more for you Burgh86:





After winning his second Super Bowl title this past February, there has finally been some collective, positive national media attention paid to Ben’s total work of effort to date. Take for instance Michael Wilbon of The Washington Post and ESPN: “If I had to win a game to save my own life I'd take Roethlisberger over everybody who played in the NFL this season, and that includes everybody named Manning. It's difficult to understand why the praise is so grudging.” - Big Ben Strikes Again - Michael Wilbon
Michael, I’ll tell you why the praise is so grudging. We’re lemmings, and too few of the media see Ben as the truly great Quarterback he’s become - a future Hall of Fame QB, based on his current trajectory and accumulated stats. And all one has to do is compare him with current, and future Hall of Fame quarterbacks to see that at this stage in his career, he’s either equal to, or better than most of them.
When you look at the following statistical comparisons, Ben fits right into the quarterback Hall of Fame crowd. Following are comparisons of Ben to Troy Aikman, John Elway, Joe Montana, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and Dan Marino. Albeit not a comparison to all QBs in the Hall, it does provide a modern-era sampling of some of the best QBs the NFL has known. Ben has played for 5 seasons, and as such I’m using the first 5 seasons of their respective careers as a point of comparison to level set the comparison.
REGULAR SEASON STATISTICAL COMPARISONS

Games Won

No QB in NFL history has won more games in his first five seasons than Ben Roethlisberger. As for winning percentage, only Tom Brady won more games that he started in his first five seasons than Ben did.

1. Ben Roethlisberger – 51 (71.8%)
2. Tom Brady and Dan Marino – 48 (77.4% and 69.6% respectively)
3. John Elway – 46 (67.6%)
4. Peyton Manning - 42 (52.5%)
5. Troy Aikman – 38 (55.9%)
6. Joe Montana - 28 (57.1%)

Completion Percentage

Of these Hall of Fame quarterbacks, Ben ranks second in Completion percentage.

1. Joe Montana – 63.5%
2. Roethlisberger – 62.4%
3. Peyton Manning – 62.1%
4. Troy Aikman – 62.0%
5. Tom Brady – 61.6%
6. Dan Marino – 60.6%
7. John Elway – 54.1%

Passing Yardage

I find this stat particularly interesting. Pittsburgh is historically a run first offense, yet Ben is ranked third in passing yardage among these QBs. His passing attempts are lower than every QB on the list save for Montana, yet he’s ranked third in overall yardage. See Yards/Attempt and Yards/Completion below.

1. Peyton Manning – 20,618
2. Dan Marino – 19,422
3. Ben Roethlisberger – 14,974
4. John Elway – 14,835
5. Tom Brady – 13,925
6. Troy Aikman – 13,627
7. Joe Montana – 11,979

TD Passes

In the scoring category, Ben is again ranked third among these Hall of Fame quarterbacks with 101 TDs thrown in his first five seasons. Equally as interesting is that his TD% is 5.3%, second on the list only to Dan Marino.

1. Dan Marino – 168 (TD% = 6.7)
2. Peyton Manning – 138 (TD% = 4.9)
3. Ben Roethlisberger – 101 (TD% - 5.3)
4. Tom Brady – 97 (TD% = 4.8 )
5. John Elway – 85 (TD% = 3.9)
6. Joe Montana – 78 (TD% = 4.7)
7. Troy Aikman – 69 (TD% = 3.6)

Interceptions

Interceptions are an area where Ben is often criticized. Yet in this comparison of Hall of Fame quarterbacks, he is ranked fourth (not last), and threw 8, 11, and 31 fewer interceptions in his first 5 seasons as compared to Elway, Marino, and Manning, respectively. Also, it’s interesting to note that Peyton Manning had an interception percentage of 3.5 as compared to Ben’s 3.6.

1. Joe Montana – 44 (INT% = 2.7%)
2. Tom Brady – 52 (INT% = 2.6%)
3. Troy Aikman – 66 (INT% = 3.4%)
4. Ben Roethlisberger – 69 (INT% = 3.6%)
5. John Elway – 77 (INT% = 3.6%)
6. Dan Marino – 80 (INT% = 3.2%)
7. Peyton Manning – 100 (INT = 3.5%)

Yards per Attempt

Further evidence below that Ben gets the most out of his throws, averaging nearly 8 yards per attempt, a full yard per attempt above Brady and Elway.

1. Ben Roethlisberger – 7.9
2. Dan Marino – 7.8
3. Joe Montana and Peyton Manning – 7.3
4. Troy Aikman – 7.1
5. Tom Brady and John Elway – 6.9

Yards per Completion

1. Dan Marino – 12.8
2. John Elway – 12.7
3. Ben Roethlisberger – 12.6
4. Peyton Manning – 11.8
5. Troy Aikman – 11.4
6. Tom Brady – 11.2
7. Joe Montana – 7.3

Passer Rating

Obviously Dan Marino was off the charts as a pure passer. Roethlisberger keeps excellent company ranking third among the HoF quarterbacks.

1. Dan Marino – 94.1
2. Joe Montana - 90
3. Roethlisberger - 89.4
4. Tom Brady – 87.5
5. Peyton Manning – 85.6
6. Troy Aikman - 81
7. John Elway – 74.1

Sack Percentage

This is the other common area of critique when it comes to Ben, his sack numbers. So many factors contribute to this number – OL performance, the health of the running back corps, the QB play, his awareness of the pocket, strength of schedule, etc. Ben’s sack numbers have increased steadily over the past five seasons as follows – 30, 23, 46, 47, and 46. The Steelers offensive line has also diminished in skill and experience along the same five year curve and has contributed to the rise in sacks. Last year’s running back corps was decimated most of the season. And yes, “he may hold the ball too long,” but that is also his strength in making big plays (see yards/completion, yards/attempt, yardage, TDs, etc).

1. Dan Marino – 2.6%
2. Peyton Manning – 3.7%
3. Joe Montana – 5.4%
4. Tom Brady – 5.5%
5. John Elway – 6.2%
6. Troy Aikman – 6.8%
7. Ben Roethlisberger – 9.2%

Regular Season Statistical Summary
When you consider all of these statistical categories, there is no question Ben belongs with this group. Of the nine categories, Ben finishes first two times, second once, thired four times, fourth once, and seventh (last) only once. Clearly Ben’s numbers are better than average across the board against this group of exceptional peers.
POST SEASON COMPARISONS
Hall of Fame quarterbacks are expected to lead their teams to the playoffs, and ultimately to championships. We all know that unless a QB is an exceptional QB, like Dan Marino, not having Super Bowl titles is a big detractor to Hall of Fame consideration. In comparing the list of Hall of Fame QBs and their postseason performances, Ben again rises to the top.
Playoff Games Played

Ben leads the list in terms of playoff games played by the end of year five.

1. Ben Roethlisberger – 10
2. Tom Brady – 9
3. John Elway – 8
4. Troy Aikman – 7
5. Dan Marino and Joe Montana – 5
6. Peyton Manning – 3

Playoff Wins

Only Tom Brady, who was a perfect 9-0 in his first 5 years in playoff games, surpasses Ben's 8 playoff vicotories in his first five seasons.

1. Tom Brady – 9
2. Ben Roethlisberger – 8
3. Troy Aikman – 6
4. John Elway and Joe Montana – 4
5. Dan Marino – 3
6. Peyton Manning – 0

Playoff TDs Thrown

1. Ben Roethlisberger - 15
2. Troy Aikman and Dan Marino - 13
3. Tom Brady and John Elway - 11
4. Joe Montana - 10
5. Peyton Manning - 1

Total TDs thrown is a bit skewed, seeing as each of th eplayers played in a varied number of total playoff games. So to differently compare the QBs' TD effiiciencies, see th enext section, TD%.

Playoff TD Percentage

1. Troy Aikman - 7.0%
2. Joe Montana - 6.0%
3. Dan Marino - 5.6%
4. Ben Roethlisberger - 5.4%
5. John Elway - 4.4%
6. Tom Brady - 3.6%
7. Peyton Manning 1.0%

Playoff Interception %

Due to the varied nature of total number of games played, I've included on the interception percentages here, versus the total number of interceptions thrown.

1. Tom Brady - 1.0%
2. Peyton Manning 1.9%
3. Troy Aikman - 2.1%
4. Joe Montana - 3.6%
5. Dan Marino and Ben Roethlisberger - 4.3%
6. John Elway - 4.8%

Playoff Completion Percentage

1. Troy Aikman - 71.1%
2. Tom Brady - 62.5%
3. Ben Roethlisberger - 61.9%
4. Joe Montana - 60.5%
5. Dan Marino - 56.0%
6. John Elway - 51.6%
7. Peyton Manning - 47.6%

Playoff QB Rating

1. Troy Aikman - 111.2
2. Joe Montana - 89.8
3. Tom Brady - 88.9
4. Ben Roethlisberger - 87.2
5. Dan Marino - 79.4
6. John Elway - 71.8
7. Peyton Manning - 59.1

Playoff Super Bowl Titles Won

1. Joe Montana - 4
2. Tom Brady - 3
3. Ben Roethlisberger and Troy Aikman - 2
4. Peyton Manning - 1
5. John Elway and Dan Marino - 0

Post-Season Statistical Summary
Of these six statistical categories, Ben again proves to make himself at home with this elite list of QBs. He ranks first again twice, second twice, third once, fourth twice, and fifth once. Clearly he belongs in the same discussion with these other quarterbacks.

SUMMARY

"It's almost silly at this point the lack of respcet Ben receives by fans and the media alike. There's no question, he's earned the respect that he's been missing. One of the silliest notions fans mutter is that Ben is great only because of the Steelers defense. True, the Steelers have had a great defense, but did any of them throw the balls that Ben threw? No one questioned Montana's supporting cast, or Brady's, or Aikman's - all of whom were necessary to getting their teams to Super Bowl victories. Ben, as you consider the stats laid out here, is as good a passer (or better) as any of these Hall of Fame quarterbacks at this point in his career.
In fact, based on these numbers alone, you can make the argument that in his first five years, Ben has surpassed the first five year output of Brady in many ways, and certainly all-around has outperformed Peyton's first five years.
Let the media treat the quarterbacks equally and fairly. Clearly Brady and manning were pre-ordained to be loved. And for some reasons, Ben was destined to be questioned (as Bradshaw was before him). But thankfully, numbers do not lie. Anyone with an objective eye who looks at Ben's performance as compared to these Hall of Fame quarterbacks cannot argue that he doesn't belong among the elite at this point in his young, illustrious career."

Flasteel
07-13-2009, 12:29 AM
[quote=BURGH86STEEL]I don't think it is a knock on Ben if someone thinks he is the 5th or 6th best QB in the league. He did not play like a top 5 QB last season. I think that Manning, Brady, and Brees are clearly better than Ben. After that, there are a number of guys that can go into the 4th and 5th spots. It all depends on how someone wants to rank those QB's.

That's too bad.

Not really.

Yes it is, and here's why:


Fantasy football has runined the perception of the NFL by many, even posters on this board which is probably one of the most knowledgeable there is. They fail to understand the nuances of the game and rely on stats as the determination of success. Stats lie.

This list by Sapp is nothing more than a list of the 5 biggest stats generators. Sapp has just fallen into the trap of the vast majority of the sports media who have gotten lazy and so they look for easy sources of information to generate the increased volume of stories that the 24/7 television and internet media requires. What is easier than going to a list of stats and "inventing" stories out of that?

If it were not for stats, would the Steelers defense be considered the best in the league?

Sorry dude but I don't rely solely on stats to base my opinions. There are uses for stats outside of fantasy football. If used properly and objectively, they can back up one's opinion.

I understand the nuances of the game. One of several reasons the offense struggled last season was because Ben was inconsistent. I don't think Ben played like a top 5 QB last season, with or without stats.

Success can be measured in several ways. There is individual and team success. To some extent, the two can be separated. For example, Brees had one hell of a season. Because the New Orleans defense was not good enough, that team did not make the playoffs.

At this stage of my life, I am not one to get upset over someones opinion of who has the leagues best teams or players. Most times, it is only a person's opinion. That does not make a person an idiot. Last time I checked, being considered a top 5 or 6 player at a position is not a bad thing.

Over the coarse of games, Ben's individual performances were not great. At the end of the day, he was good enough to help this team win 2 SB's. That is all that matters.

So it really is not to bad.[/quote:2e02nq3f]

Amazing how you can use the offensive line as a crutch for Bruce Arians, yet not even mention it as contributing to Ben's situation. For you to honestly believe that he didn't play like one of the top five quarterbacks in the league is astonishing...especially from someone who I'm sure saw each game. The guy was as clutch as they came last season and in my opinion did more to entrench himself among the elite than in any year past. He was so good that I had complete confidence we'd win the Super Bowl even after Fitzgerald's catch and run. Think back across Manning's career and see how many clutch performances he's had...particularly in the playoffs. How 'bout Brees?

By the way, Brady didn't even play last year, so who were the five quarterbacks you think did a better job than the guy wearing the ring?

Ghost
07-14-2009, 08:07 AM
I will never understand the knob slobbing over Culter. Going on his third full season this year as a starter (he started 5 or 6 games his rookie year) and he has a losing record. His completion percentage is 62.5%. I mean how many years does a guy get to ride out the "potential" card and be considered one of the best in the league? It's become ludicrous.

DHSF
07-14-2009, 01:11 PM
Playoff Super Bowl Titles Won

1. Joe Montana - 4
2. Tom Brady - 3
3. Ben Roethlisberger and Troy Aikman - 2
4. Peyton Manning - 1
5. John Elway and Dan Marino - 0

Elway won a super bowl.

PSU_dropout43
07-14-2009, 01:24 PM
Elway won 2 Super Bowls.

Starlifter
07-14-2009, 01:35 PM
I will never understand the knob slobbing over Culter. Going on his third full season this year as a starter (he started 5 or 6 games his rookie year) and he has a losing record. His completion percentage is 62.5%. I mean how many years does a guy get to ride out the "potential" card and be considered one of the best in the league?

dunno. ask carson palmer......

msp26505
07-14-2009, 02:15 PM
Elway won 2 Super Bowls.
And Aikman won 3.

I am firmly in the "Ben deserves better press" camp, but these obvious mistakes make me question every statistic posted in that story.

proudpittsburgher
07-14-2009, 02:42 PM
Elway won 2 Super Bowls.
And Aikman won 3.

I am firmly in the "Ben deserves better press" camp, but these obvious mistakes make me question every statistic posted in that story.

context, guys. If you read the story, you would see that those stats were only for the first five years of each of the QBs careers. Read, gentlemen, read.

RuthlessBurgher
07-14-2009, 03:39 PM
Elway won 2 Super Bowls.
And Aikman won 3.

I am firmly in the "Ben deserves better press" camp, but these obvious mistakes make me question every statistic posted in that story.

context, guys. If you read the story, you would see that those stats were only for the first five years of each of the QBs careers. Read, gentlemen, read.

Okay, then...Montana did not win 4 Super Bowls in his first 5 seasons.

Iron Shiek
07-14-2009, 04:43 PM
I will never understand the knob slobbing over Culter. Going on his third full season this year as a starter (he started 5 or 6 games his rookie year) and he has a losing record. His completion percentage is 62.5%. I mean how many years does a guy get to ride out the "potential" card and be considered one of the best in the league? It's become ludicrous.


We could form a better defense from members of this board than what Denver rolled out there last year and part of the year before. And if you recall, they had 6 rb's or something crazy like that out with injuries and were down to scraps. So while teams knew they were going to pass due to lack of a credible rb, he still managed 4000+ yards. Granted the wins didn't come, but when you aren't balance on offense and have no defense to speak of, you aren't going to win many games. Plus the year before that he lost a ton of weight because nobody knew he had diabetes, which caused him to lose all kinds of muscle/velocity on his throws.

There's alot going against Cutler, I don't think he gets a fair shake. I certainly don't think he is in Top 5 by any stretch, but people rail on him and he hasn't had a normal season in my mind. Going to Chicago probably won't help a ton, but he has a solid run game, decent line, and decent defense (when healthy). Hester is going to have to step up and they've got Olsen at TE who is gonna be good. I think he fares pretty well in Chi-town.

stlrz d
07-14-2009, 05:44 PM
Elway won 2 Super Bowls.
And Aikman won 3.

I am firmly in the "Ben deserves better press" camp, but these obvious mistakes make me question every statistic posted in that story.

context, guys. If you read the story, you would see that those stats were only for the first five years of each of the QBs careers. Read, gentlemen, read.

Okay, then...Montana did not win 4 Super Bowls in his first 5 seasons.

Correct. The Montana 4 titles in his first five years is a mistake. He won 1 in his first five. The rest is correct.

BURGH86STEEL
07-14-2009, 06:17 PM
Amazing how you can use the offensive line as a crutch for Bruce Arians, yet not even mention it as contributing to Ben's situation. For you to honestly believe that he didn't play like one of the top five quarterbacks in the league is astonishing...especially from someone who I'm sure saw each game. The guy was as clutch as they came last season and in my opinion did more to entrench himself among the elite than in any year past. He was so good that I had complete confidence we'd win the Super Bowl even after Fitzgerald's catch and run. Think back across Manning's career and see how many clutch performances he's had...particularly in the playoffs. How 'bout Brees?

By the way, Brady didn't even play last year, so who were the five quarterbacks you think did a better job than the guy wearing the ring?

My philosophy is that most of what happens is on the players, not the coaches.

I said Ben was one of SEVERAL factors why the offense struggled last season. Another factor would be the inconsistent play and injuries to the Oline. There were some other factors. During the season, I don't think Ben played like a top 5 QB. There is evidence to back that up. One reason why the offense had to win in the final minutes of some games was because they were inconsistent. The defense scored a few times to help them out.

How many times were Manning and Brees in that situation? I cannot say for sure. Don't have time to do that research. How many times did they have defenses like the Steelers had? I don't think they ever had a defense the caliber of the Steelers. If the Saints had the Steelers defense last season, I believe they win the SB. I will let you decide the 5 or 6 QB's that had better individual seasons then Ben in 08. I think that there are 3 QB's in the league that are better then Ben right now. There are a number of guys that you can put in behind those 3. I think a case can be made for each guy. That includes Ben. It is a matter of opinion.

If someone ranks Ben 4th, 5th, or 6th best QB, I don't see the problem. Just because someone ranks him 4th, 5th, or 6th does not make him a bad or terrible QB. It is mostly that persons opinion. If he had ranked Ben 15th or 16th, I would understand.

RuthlessBurgher
07-14-2009, 06:30 PM
Amazing how you can use the offensive line as a crutch for Bruce Arians, yet not even mention it as contributing to Ben's situation. For you to honestly believe that he didn't play like one of the top five quarterbacks in the league is astonishing...especially from someone who I'm sure saw each game. The guy was as clutch as they came last season and in my opinion did more to entrench himself among the elite than in any year past. He was so good that I had complete confidence we'd win the Super Bowl even after Fitzgerald's catch and run. Think back across Manning's career and see how many clutch performances he's had...particularly in the playoffs. How 'bout Brees?

By the way, Brady didn't even play last year, so who were the five quarterbacks you think did a better job than the guy wearing the ring?

My philosophy is that most of what happens is on the players, not the coaches.

I said Ben was one of SEVERAL factors why the offense struggled last season. Another factor would be the inconsistent play and injuries to the Oline. There were some other factors. During the season, I don't think Ben played like a top 5 QB. There is evidence to back that up. One reason why the offense had to win in the final minutes of some games was because they were inconsistent. The defense scored a few times to help them out.

How many times were Manning and Brees in that situation? I cannot say for sure. Don't have time to do that research. How many times did they have defenses like the Steelers had? I don't think they ever had a defense the caliber of the Steelers. If the Saints had the Steelers defense last season, I believe they win the SB. I will let you decide the 5 or 6 QB's that had better individual seasons then Ben in 08. I think that there are 3 QB's in the league that are better then Ben right now. There are a number of guys that you can put in behind those 3. I think a case can be made for each guy. That includes Ben. It is a matter of opinion.

If someone ranks Ben 4th, 5th, or 6th best QB, I don't see the problem. Just because someone ranks him 4th, 5th, or 6th does not make him a bad or terrible QB. It is mostly that persons opinion. If he had ranked Ben 15th or 16th, I would understand.

For fantasy purposes, I could see Ben being ranked in the middle of the pack league-wise, in the neighborhood of 15th or 16th. But for real-life purposes, where being able to lead your team to victories in the most pressure-packed situations is much more important than being able to accumulate stats in blowout games against the dregs of the league, then Ben has to be mentioned near the top of everyone's list.

stlrz d
07-14-2009, 06:41 PM
Way to completely ignore all the historical comparisons to some of the all time greats in the game.

Flasteel
07-14-2009, 11:30 PM
Amazing how you can use the offensive line as a crutch for Bruce Arians, yet not even mention it as contributing to Ben's situation. For you to honestly believe that he didn't play like one of the top five quarterbacks in the league is astonishing...especially from someone who I'm sure saw each game. The guy was as clutch as they came last season and in my opinion did more to entrench himself among the elite than in any year past. He was so good that I had complete confidence we'd win the Super Bowl even after Fitzgerald's catch and run. Think back across Manning's career and see how many clutch performances he's had...particularly in the playoffs. How 'bout Brees?

By the way, Brady didn't even play last year, so who were the five quarterbacks you think did a better job than the guy wearing the ring?

My philosophy is that most of what happens is on the players, not the coaches.

I said Ben was one of SEVERAL factors why the offense struggled last season. Another factor would be the inconsistent play and injuries to the Oline. There were some other factors. During the season, I don't think Ben played like a top 5 QB. There is evidence to back that up. One reason why the offense had to win in the final minutes of some games was because they were inconsistent. The defense scored a few times to help them out.

How many times were Manning and Brees in that situation? I cannot say for sure. Don't have time to do that research. How many times did they have defenses like the Steelers had? I don't think they ever had a defense the caliber of the Steelers. If the Saints had the Steelers defense last season, I believe they win the SB. I will let you decide the 5 or 6 QB's that had better individual seasons then Ben in 08. I think that there are 3 QB's in the league that are better then Ben right now. There are a number of guys that you can put in behind those 3. I think a case can be made for each guy. That includes Ben. It is a matter of opinion.

If someone ranks Ben 4th, 5th, or 6th best QB, I don't see the problem. Just because someone ranks him 4th, 5th, or 6th does not make him a bad or terrible QB. It is mostly that persons opinion. If he had ranked Ben 15th or 16th, I would understand.

I agree that nobody needs to lose sleep over whether or not Ben is ranked as the 4th, 5th, or 6th best quarterback by some slappy. However, you were the one who said that he didn't play like a top-5 quarterback last season. Statistically you have some ammo to back that up, but it ignores the intangibles. He was friggin' awesome when it counted from the first week to the last 42 seconds of the season. So why not give the quarterback of your team the credit he deserves?