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stlrz d
06-03-2009, 12:57 PM
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcnorth/0-3 ... inco-.html (http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcnorth/0-3-13/Take-your-pick--Holmes-or-Ochocinco-.html)


Take your pick: Holmes or Ochocinco?
June 3, 2009 12:00 PM
Posted by ESPN.com's James Walker

In our third installment during "Take Your Pick" week in the AFC North, we compare two players from the Pittsburgh Steelers and Cincinnati Bengals.

Who will have the better season at receiver this year: Pittsburgh's Santonio Holmes or Cincinnati's Chad Ochocinco?

Holmes, 25, had better statistics in 2008 and has a lot of momentum following an MVP performance in Super Bowl XLIII. Ochocinco, 31, struggled last season but should benefit from the return of former Pro Bowl quarterback Carson Palmer this year. Ochocinco also said he is very motivated this year.

Holmes never had a 1,000-yard season but appears to be approaching the prime of his career. Ochocinco has been one of the top receivers in the NFL for a long time, but injuries, age and controversy have some critics thinking his best years are behind him.

So which AFC North receiver will have a better 2009?

Take your pick.

Ocho may put up better stats (just as he always does, accumulating them while playing catch up against soft defenses) but Holmes will contribute more to actually winning games and helping the Steelers with their goal of repeating as NFL champs.

RuthlessBurgher
06-03-2009, 01:07 PM
A most valuable player vs. a least valuable player. Laughable. Even Carson Palmer would pick Holmes. Chad mom (who's likely ticked off that her son changed his birth name to an improper Spanish number) would pick Holmes.

flippy
06-03-2009, 01:28 PM
Chadmom (who's likely ticked off that her son changed his birth name to an improper Spanish number) would pick Holmes.

Chadman is Ochocinco's dad??????? :shock:

RuthlessBurgher
06-03-2009, 01:42 PM
Chadmom (who's likely ticked off that her son changed his birth name to an improper Spanish number) would pick Holmes.

Chadman is Ochocinco's dad??????? :shock:

Chadman's son wasn't born yesterday. (he was born 2 days ago) :lol:

Djfan
06-03-2009, 05:15 PM
Chadman's son wasn't born yesterday. (he was born 2 days ago) :lol:

Isn't he Chadboy? Or Chaddiaperfiller?

He poops out ocho-cincos!

PSU_dropout43
06-04-2009, 01:04 PM
Chad is better.

Holmes? What's he shown but flashes and injuries? Besides arrests?

SteelCzar76
06-04-2009, 01:13 PM
Holmes has yet to even peak and is the kind of player that can change games. (I think it's fair to say that not only would we have not won the Superbowl without him,...but probably would not have made it through the playoffs.)

Johnson is not only on the decline,. but imo was always a bit overrated even during his peak.

Advantage: Holmes

RuthlessBurgher
06-04-2009, 01:21 PM
Chad is better.

Holmes? What's he shown but flashes and injuries? Besides arrests?

Would you seriously trade Santonio Holmes for Chad right now? (I don't even want to type his joke of a new last name)

Chad had a good career, putting up over 90 catches and over 1300 yards on a regular basis. He's helped teams to fantasy football titles, while Holmes has won a reality football title. He's done nothing but whine ever since halftime of his lone playoff game when he was allegedly throwing punches at coaches, pulling his team apart at the seams. Santonio outperformed him last year. Holmes is 25. Chad is 31.

Chad is a clown. I think Marvin Lewis agreed to have HBO film Hard Knocks in Georgetown, KY because that is the only way he could think of to prevent a holdout from Chad, because he cannot possibly stay away from cameras and more publicity.

Djfan
06-04-2009, 01:25 PM
This one is a no brainer - Holmes.

stlrz d
06-04-2009, 01:30 PM
Chad is better.

Holmes? What's he shown but flashes and injuries? Besides arrests?

If piling up yards while playing from behind is your idea of better, then I agree!

RuthlessBurgher
06-04-2009, 01:35 PM
[quote="PSU_dropout43":1hnl0ei0]Chad is better.

Holmes? What's he shown but flashes and injuries? Besides arrests?

If piling up yards while playing from behind is your idea of better, then I agree![/quote:1hnl0ei0]

Except in Super Bowls. Santonio did an awfully good job of piling up the yards while playing from behind against the Cardinals in Tampa. :D

stlrz d
06-04-2009, 01:39 PM
[quote="PSU_dropout43":3nefncz6]Chad is better.

Holmes? What's he shown but flashes and injuries? Besides arrests?

If piling up yards while playing from behind is your idea of better, then I agree!

Except in Super Bowls. Santonio did an awfully good job of piling up the yards while playing from behind against the Cardinals in Tampa. :D[/quote:3nefncz6]

I should have used "out of reach" instead of "playing from behind".

BURGH86STEEL
06-04-2009, 01:46 PM
I don't think there is a question that Chad has more ability than Holmes. No question that Chad's size and speed cause more match up problems than Holmes. At this point, Chad is a better WR. While Holmes is just entering his prime. There are other factors to consider like Holmes has not played with a QB that can really take advantage of his down field speed. I don't think Ben is as good a deep ball passer as Palmer. I would take Chad without all the nonsense. Unfortunately, that might be what makes Chad, Ocho. This team is better off without a player like Ocho.

ramblinjim
06-04-2009, 01:57 PM
Chad had a lot of talent and has had a successful (not HOF) career. We'll see what Holmes does with the rest of his.

But the question being "Who do you want?" I want Holmes. He's made some mistakes off of the field and is no choir boy but on the field Holmes plays hard, he seems to play hurt and I like the fact that he blocks down field. He's no Hines Ward but hopefully he'll have a couple more years of tutelage before Hines hangs them up.

I take Holmes.

TallyStiller
06-05-2009, 10:22 AM
My immediate thought was that Holmes and JOHNSON (at least Muhammad Ali nee Cassius Clay had serious reasons behind his change - I won't acknowledge JOHNSON's play for attention) have played on different teams and in different organizations, so their stats are apples and oranges. The Steelers run a lot more, and play from behind a lot less than Cincy does.

Here's where the decision can be made, though, and it has nothing to do with stats, or even skill set. JOHNSON is a look at me, self aggrandizing, there IS a "me" in team kind of player. Stats are more important to him than winning. Holmes is developing into a team first player who keeps quiet, takes his opportunities when they come, blocks hard in the running game, runs his routes hard even when the ball isn't coming to him, and plays like a winner. I take Santonio, disregarding any argument over who might be the more talented physically.

This said, I'm wondering if it's nature or nurture... is Holmes a guy who does all those things because he is so different in terms of his character, or has he been influenced by his environment? I know Holmes has had his share of troubles in his personal life, and wonder a. if his professional demeanor is a reflection of the examples of solid citizens like Hines Ward in the Steeler locker room who might have helped shape him up, and b. if JOHNSON would still be JOHNSON and a better citizen if he had been drafted a Steeler, or the outspoken, selfish, attention seeking buffoon he has become in Cincinnati in a locker room that has, over the years, been as low character as any in football.

In fact, I'll bet anybody here $1 that I can turn JOHNSON into Santonio and vice versa... maybe we could get Eddie Murphy to star as Chad... Could we get away with Dan Akroyd as Santonio? Maybe we can work frozen concentrasted orange juice futures into the plot? :D

RuthlessBurgher
06-05-2009, 10:27 AM
My immediate thought was that Holmes and JOHNSON (at least Muhammad Ali nee Cassius Clay had serious reasons behind his change - I won't acknowledge JOHNSON's play for attention) have played on different teams and in different organizations, so their stats are apples and oranges. The Steelers run a lot more, and play from behind a lot less than Cincy does.

Here's where the decision can be made, though, and it has nothing to do with stats, or even skill set. JOHNSON is a look at me, self aggrandizing, there IS a "me" in team kind of player. Stats are more important to him than winning. Holmes is developing into a team first player who keeps quiet, takes his opportunities when they come, blocks hard in the running game, runs his routes hard even when the ball isn't coming to him, and plays like a winner. I take Santonio, disregarding any argument over who might be the more talented physically.

This said, I'm wondering if it's nature or nurture... is Holmes a guy who does all those things because he is so different in terms of his character, or has he been influenced by his environment? I know Holmes has had his share of troubles in his personal life, and wonder a. if his professional demeanor is a reflection of the examples of solid citizens like Hines Ward in the Steeler locker room who might have helped shape him up, and b. if JOHNSON would still be JOHNSON and a better citizen if he had been drafted a Steeler, or the outspoken, selfish, attention seeking buffoon he has become in Cincinnati in a locker room that has, over the years, been as low character as any in football.

In fact, I'll bet anybody here $1 that I can turn JOHNSON into Santonio and vice versa... maybe we could get Eddie Murphy to star as Chad... Could we get away with Dan Akroyd as Santonio? Maybe we can work frozen concentrasted orange juice futures into the plot? :D

All I wanna know is who gets to play the Jamie Lee role? :Boobs :D

http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:RgztgRs-0kVj9M:http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/03_03/tradingplacesREX_468x425.jpg

stlrz d
06-05-2009, 11:00 AM
My immediate thought was that Holmes and JOHNSON (at least Muhammad Ali nee Cassius Clay had serious reasons behind his change - I won't acknowledge JOHNSON's play for attention) have played on different teams and in different organizations, so their stats are apples and oranges. The Steelers run a lot more, and play from behind a lot less than Cincy does.

Here's where the decision can be made, though, and it has nothing to do with stats, or even skill set. JOHNSON is a look at me, self aggrandizing, there IS a "me" in team kind of player. Stats are more important to him than winning. Holmes is developing into a team first player who keeps quiet, takes his opportunities when they come, blocks hard in the running game, runs his routes hard even when the ball isn't coming to him, and plays like a winner. I take Santonio, disregarding any argument over who might be the more talented physically.

This said, I'm wondering if it's nature or nurture... is Holmes a guy who does all those things because he is so different in terms of his character, or has he been influenced by his environment? I know Holmes has had his share of troubles in his personal life, and wonder a. if his professional demeanor is a reflection of the examples of solid citizens like Hines Ward in the Steeler locker room who might have helped shape him up, and b. if JOHNSON would still be JOHNSON and a better citizen if he had been drafted a Steeler, or the outspoken, selfish, attention seeking buffoon he has become in Cincinnati in a locker room that has, over the years, been as low character as any in football.

In fact, I'll bet anybody here $1 that I can turn JOHNSON into Santonio and vice versa... maybe we could get Eddie Murphy to star as Chad... Could we get away with Dan Akroyd as Santonio? Maybe we can work frozen concentrasted orange juice futures into the plot? :D

I think environment can influence to a certain extent, but if a person is really a me guy then the environment doesn't matter. If the person doesn't want to change then they aren't going to change.

To get to your no I in team point, Ocho is Leon:

Reporter: Leon, there's no "i" in team.
Leon: Yeah, well there ain't no "we" either.

http://theinsanityreport.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/leon.gif

Chachi
06-05-2009, 12:35 PM
31 and more yards or 25 and more SB MVP trophies?

There really is no choice.

fezziwig
06-05-2009, 03:00 PM
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcnorth/0-3-13/Take-your-pick--Holmes-or-Ochocinco-.html


Take your pick: Holmes or Ochocinco?
June 3, 2009 12:00 PM
Posted by ESPN.com's James Walker

In our third installment during "Take Your Pick" week in the AFC North, we compare two players from the Pittsburgh Steelers and Cincinnati Bengals.

Who will have the better season at receiver this year: Pittsburgh's Santonio Holmes or Cincinnati's Chad Ochocinco?

Holmes, 25, had better statistics in 2008 and has a lot of momentum following an MVP performance in Super Bowl XLIII. Ochocinco, 31, struggled last season but should benefit from the return of former Pro Bowl quarterback Carson Palmer this year. Ochocinco also said he is very motivated this year.

Holmes never had a 1,000-yard season but appears to be approaching the prime of his career. Ochocinco has been one of the top receivers in the NFL for a long time, but injuries, age and controversy have some critics thinking his best years are behind him.

So which AFC North receiver will have a better 2009?

Take your pick.

Ocho may put up better stats (just as he always does, accumulating them while playing catch up against soft defenses) but Holmes will contribute more to actually winning games and helping the Steelers with their goal of repeating as NFL champs.


I agree with your opinion.

Chad will probably also benifit because he is now the only real big target on the team.

Before last season I picked Holmes to have a breakout year. With his smoking charges I thought I couldn't have been more wrong with my guess. He did however prove he is a force on the team when he is on his game. I would still pick Santonio everytime and twice on Sunday.
Chad may have the stats, Santonio helps win games.

BTW, now that Santonio has the attention of the NFL, this should help the rest of our offense to have their chances to open things up. I really feel our offense this season is going to suprise people in a positive way.
They know how to win, the o-line should be better, teams will key on Santonio and allow Hines to eat them up on the inside. Then there is Miller that will step up with the freedom he will find from not being covered as much. If one of the new receivers ends up being a stud plus, our runningbacks, look out. This may be a Steeler offense that makes the record books.

flippy
06-05-2009, 04:46 PM
Chad's a better WR.

I'd take Santonio cause he's younger.

When CJ is on, there's few better.

Santonio hasn't put together a complete season yet. He has some growing to do as a player.

CJ is a knucklehead through.

Santonio gets lots of ladies preggers and smokes weed. So he's got his issues too.

Let's see if he can build on the SB MVP he got.

I hope he does well.

fezziwig
06-05-2009, 05:11 PM
Just think how better some of these players would be if the kept their noses clean and concentrated to their best ability to leave it all on the field.


I always thought our Eric Greene could have had some awesome years had he let go of the attitude and focused on being a team player.

I know they used him much as a tackle being a run orientated team and I do appreciate or respect his gripe about being under used.

That dude had some terrific talent, too bad it all didn't last long for him and our team.

DukieBoy
06-05-2009, 08:09 PM
Bag the stats comparison. Downsides ... Ganja history vs team cancer. My take is Santonio is a team player, the other is not.

flippy
06-06-2009, 12:47 PM
Bag the stats comparison. Downsides ... Ganja history vs team cancer. My take is Santonio is a team player, the other is not.

It's easier for the guy on the winner to be a team player.

I bet CJ would be a team player too if he played for the Steelers and won some SBs.

And Holmes could easily be lost on the Bengals. Imagine him having to hang around guys like Chris Henry. I doubt it would be a positive situation for him there.

fezziwig
06-07-2009, 03:49 PM
I'm glad Chad is not on our team. The season hasn't even started and their only focus seems to be about Chad. A guy not even with his team yet.

I have to agree, when you lay with dogs you get fleas. The Steelers always worry about quality people over the most talented. Once you have the identity of punks, ego guys, felons and continue to bring them onto the team, they strangle out the guys that are truly there to be a team player and succeed.

Not all that glitter is gold. Just like Chads gold caps. He has gold in his mouth but, never does anything of value come from his mouth.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
06-08-2009, 09:02 AM
If I was a coach I would wrestle with the question of "Chad or no Chad". The guy is obviously a very talented player, but he is a huge locker room distraction and has a very poor work ethic when unhappy.

The fact that if I turn down Chad I can have a receiver as good as Santonio is a huge bonus which tips the scales 100% the other way. Johnson has the ability to play better, and put up much bigger numbers, but why would I want a team with an explosive timebomb in the middle of my locker room that can go off and destroy my season at any given moment.

RuthlessBurgher
06-08-2009, 10:15 AM
I still think it is hilarious that Cincy turned down two #1 picks for him a year ago. That is the worst non-trade of all time. I doubt you could get two #7 picks for him now. He's not worth the me-first sideshow. It kills team unity (which is necessary to win championships...I doubt the Cincy brass will ever figure that out).

DukieBoy
06-08-2009, 02:46 PM
Grandiose sense of self-importance
Requires excessive admiration
Often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him
Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
Jealousy
Excessive need to feel special, adored, loved, appreciated, or admired
Rage attacks when others do not sufficiently meet his/her needs
Inflated self-esteem, or grandiosity (bragging)
Dramatic, insecure behaviors
Expecting others to take responsibility for making him/her feel better about him/herself
Blaming others for behaviors or feelings (i.e., "YOU made me do this," or "YOU made me feel this way.")
Not taking responsibility for angry behavior and justifying angry outbursts
An attitude that demonstrates "the world revolves around me" and "you need to cater to my ideas, opinions, thoughts, and feelings."
An unwillingness to reflect on his own behaviors?

RuthlessBurgher
06-08-2009, 03:02 PM
Grandiose sense of self-importance
Requires excessive admiration
Often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him
Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
Jealousy
Excessive need to feel special, adored, loved, appreciated, or admired
Rage attacks when others do not sufficiently meet his/her needs
Inflated self-esteem, or grandiosity (bragging)
Dramatic, insecure behaviors
Expecting others to take responsibility for making him/her feel better about him/herself
Blaming others for behaviors or feelings (i.e., "YOU made me do this," or "YOU made me feel this way.")
Not taking responsibility for angry behavior and justifying angry outbursts
An attitude that demonstrates "the world revolves around me" and "you need to cater to my ideas, opinions, thoughts, and feelings."
An unwillingness to reflect on his own behaviors?

Is this the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria for Ochocincophrenia?

DukieBoy
06-08-2009, 03:48 PM
Grandiose sense of self-importance
Requires excessive admiration
Often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him
Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
Jealousy
Excessive need to feel special, adored, loved, appreciated, or admired
Rage attacks when others do not sufficiently meet his/her needs
Inflated self-esteem, or grandiosity (bragging)
Dramatic, insecure behaviors
Expecting others to take responsibility for making him/her feel better about him/herself
Blaming others for behaviors or feelings (i.e., "YOU made me do this," or "YOU made me feel this way.")
Not taking responsibility for angry behavior and justifying angry outbursts
An attitude that demonstrates "the world revolves around me" and "you need to cater to my ideas, opinions, thoughts, and feelings."
An unwillingness to reflect on his own behaviors?

Is this the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria for Ochocincophrenia?


Right on, RB