Pter King asseses all 32 teams

[Oviedo]

From SI.com. Steelers rated #2 behind the media darlings in New England. Doesn't give much for the "haters" to take and run with and actually contradicts some of the board "experts." Just means they will need to grasp a little further for straws. But then again from a media type to take it for what it is worth.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/w ... ml?eref=T1 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/05/10/may11/index.html?eref=T1)


2. Pittsburgh
Other than losing Bryant McFadden (free agency, Arizona), nothing significant happened to a deep roster this offseason. You can be sure Mike Tomlin won't be much of a laurel-rester, but it's always quasi-impossible to repeat.

I had a friend of Ben Roethlisberger's tell me the best thing that could have happened to him was not being MVP of the Super Bowl. After he led one of the best playoff drives ever to give Pittsburgh its Super Bowl title, Santonio Holmes got the MVP. Big Ben said he was fine with it, but now he's got something else to shoot for and some perceived critics to shut up.
I worry a little about Hines Ward surviving another physical season, because there's not a good possession-receiver/playmaker behind him. I worry about Casey Hampton being in shape. When those are your biggest worries about a team, that team's in pretty good shape.

[RuthlessBurgher]

I read that MMQB this morning, and smiled when I read the quote from Ben's friend saying that the best thing that could have happened to him was not being MVP of the Super Bowl. Bradshaw didn't win a SBMVP until #3 and #4. Keeps him hungry. Love it.

[Oviedo]

I read that MMQB this morning, and smiled when I read the quote from Ben's friend saying that the best thing that could have happened to him was not being MVP of the Super Bowl. Bradshaw didn't win a SBMVP until #3 and #4. Keeps him hungry. Love it.

A motivated Ben is a good thing.

[flippy]

I read that MMQB this morning, and smiled when I read the quote from Ben's friend saying that the best thing that could have happened to him was not being MVP of the Super Bowl. Bradshaw didn't win a SBMVP until #3 and #4. Keeps him hungry. Love it.

A motivated Ben is a good thing.

Hopefully Ben will get MVP in his 4th, 5th, and 6th.

[fezziwig]

Maybe McDonald will be the possesion player and Santonio sure proved he is clutch when it's time to move the ball down the field.

Could you see Lima, Santonio and Hines all at it ? You know Santonio is going to get all the attention and then you have Hines sneaking around for the rocket pass from Ben. Lima has a couple of good games, the defenses won't know what person to cover.
I think our receiver group is going to be our teams strength.
Add the fourth receiver and there may be no stopping us.
Man ! I can't wait for this new season !

[RuthlessBurgher]

I read that MMQB this morning, and smiled when I read the quote from Ben's friend saying that the best thing that could have happened to him was not being MVP of the Super Bowl. Bradshaw didn't win a SBMVP until #3 and #4. Keeps him hungry. Love it.

A motivated Ben is a good thing.

Hopefully Ben will get MVP in his 4th, 5th, and 6th.

Who is going to be MVP in his 3rd?

[Oviedo]

I read that MMQB this morning, and smiled when I read the quote from Ben's friend saying that the best thing that could have happened to him was not being MVP of the Super Bowl. Bradshaw didn't win a SBMVP until #3 and #4. Keeps him hungry. Love it.

A motivated Ben is a good thing.

Hopefully Ben will get MVP in his 4th, 5th, and 6th.

Who is going to be MVP in his 3rd?

Hines to cement his Hall of Fame resume.

[steelers43]

I would hope he still feels motivation but I can see how someone might not work as hard, given a $100 mill contract and two SB's already.

Hopefully he garners motivation from whatever. Sad that he may need something to motivate him but regardless.

I'm also less worried about Hines than most. If Ben is truly a great QB he will make marginal receivers better and hopefully more consistent.

The OL is only getting stronger, the defense is only getting stronger, the receivers and backs are deeper and better imo while the schedule gets softer.

About the only worry I have is a fat Ben showing up for camp. By the pictures of mini camp, that isn't happening. Sure he is still soft and could be in better shape but he's not JaMarcus Russell just happy to be there and ordering bling.

[RuthlessBurgher]

I would hope he still feels motivation but I can see how someone might not work as hard, given a $100 mill contract and two SB's already.

Hopefully he garners motivation from whatever. Sad that he may need something to motivate him but regardless.

I'm also less worried about Hines than most. If Ben is truly a great QB he will make marginal receivers better and hopefully more consistent.

The OL is only getting stronger, the defense is only getting stronger, the receivers and backs are deeper and better imo while the schedule gets softer.

About the only worry I have is a fat Ben showing up for camp. By the pictures of mini camp, that isn't happening. Sure he is still soft and could be in better shape but he's not JaMarcus Russell just happy to be there and ordering bling.

Hines has been using any perceived slight, no matter how infinitesimal, as his own personal source of motivation for years. So I don't think that it is sad that a professional athlete may still need something to motivate him.

[drprwnap]

LOL! Guess who's #32???

Detroit? NO It's

The CLOWNS!!!! Rated by PK as the WORST team in the league.

:brownssuck

[Oviedo]

I would hope he still feels motivation but I can see how someone might not work as hard, given a $100 mill contract and two SB's already.

Hopefully he garners motivation from whatever. Sad that he may need something to motivate him but regardless.

I'm also less worried about Hines than most. If Ben is truly a great QB he will make marginal receivers better and hopefully more consistent.

The OL is only getting stronger, the defense is only getting stronger, the receivers and backs are deeper and better imo while the schedule gets softer.

About the only worry I have is a fat Ben showing up for camp. By the pictures of mini camp, that isn't happening. Sure he is still soft and could be in better shape but he's not JaMarcus Russell just happy to be there and ordering bling.

Didn't you get the press release containing expert assessments? The talent is getting worse since Tomlin took over. Everyone is "plain as grits." Nothing is getting better and we are on the verge of collapse.

BTW--I agree with what is in bold above. This team will only get better as we move forward. Like any team in the NFL we are a few injuries away from serious problems but we are far better than 90% of the league thanks to good drafting and coaching.

[feltdizz]

I would hope he still feels motivation but I can see how someone might not work as hard, given a $100 mill contract and two SB's already.

Hopefully he garners motivation from whatever. Sad that he may need something to motivate him but regardless.

I'm also less worried about Hines than most. If Ben is truly a great QB he will make marginal receivers better and hopefully more consistent.

The OL is only getting stronger, the defense is only getting stronger, the receivers and backs are deeper and better imo while the schedule gets softer.

About the only worry I have is a fat Ben showing up for camp. By the pictures of mini camp, that isn't happening. Sure he is still soft and could be in better shape but he's not JaMarcus Russell just happy to be there and ordering bling.

uhh....Ben had 100 mill before the second SB win and plenty of people said he wouldn't be hungry to win a SB after the contract.

and enough with the "if Ben is truly great" talk... LOL!!!

[Discipline of Steel]

I read that MMQB this morning, and smiled when I read the quote from Ben's friend saying that the best thing that could have happened to him was not being MVP of the Super Bowl. Bradshaw didn't win a SBMVP until #3 and #4. Keeps him hungry. Love it.

A motivated Ben is a good thing.

Hopefully Ben will get MVP in his 4th, 5th, and 6th.

Who is going to be MVP in his 3rd?

James Harrison will have the most disruptive season at LB ever in the NFL and score a hat trick of MVP awards.

[ROLROC]

I would hope he still feels motivation but I can see how someone might not work as hard, given a $100 mill contract and two SB's already.

Hopefully he garners motivation from whatever. Sad that he may need something to motivate him but regardless.

I'm also less worried about Hines than most. If Ben is truly a great QB he will make marginal receivers better and hopefully more consistent.

The OL is only getting stronger, the defense is only getting stronger, the receivers and backs are deeper and better imo while the schedule gets softer.

About the only worry I have is a fat Ben showing up for camp. By the pictures of mini camp, that isn't happening. Sure he is still soft and could be in better shape but he's not JaMarcus Russell just happy to be there and ordering bling.

uhh....Ben had 100 mill before the second SB win and plenty of people said he wouldn't be hungry to win a SB after the contract.

and enough with the "if Ben is truly great" talk... LOL!!!

exactly.

Ben is already great. There is no doubt after that last SB drive.

[ROLROC]

I would hope he still feels motivation but I can see how someone might not work as hard, given a $100 mill contract and two SB's already.

Hopefully he garners motivation from whatever. Sad that he may need something to motivate him but regardless.

I'm also less worried about Hines than most. If Ben is truly a great QB he will make marginal receivers better and hopefully more consistent.

The OL is only getting stronger, the defense is only getting stronger, the receivers and backs are deeper and better imo while the schedule gets softer.

About the only worry I have is a fat Ben showing up for camp. By the pictures of mini camp, that isn't happening. Sure he is still soft and could be in better shape but he's not JaMarcus Russell just happy to be there and ordering bling.

uhh....Ben had 100 mill before the second SB win and plenty of people said he wouldn't be hungry to win a SB after the contract.

and enough with the "if Ben is truly great" talk... LOL!!!

exactly.

Ben is already great. There is no doubt after that last SB drive.

[steelers43]

I would hope he still feels motivation but I can see how someone might not work as hard, given a $100 mill contract and two SB's already.

Hopefully he garners motivation from whatever. Sad that he may need something to motivate him but regardless.

I'm also less worried about Hines than most. If Ben is truly a great QB he will make marginal receivers better and hopefully more consistent.

The OL is only getting stronger, the defense is only getting stronger, the receivers and backs are deeper and better imo while the schedule gets softer.

About the only worry I have is a fat Ben showing up for camp. By the pictures of mini camp, that isn't happening. Sure he is still soft and could be in better shape but he's not JaMarcus Russell just happy to be there and ordering bling.

uhh....Ben had 100 mill before the second SB win and plenty of people said he wouldn't be hungry to win a SB after the contract.

and enough with the "if Ben is truly great" talk... LOL!!!

exactly.

Ben is already great. There is no doubt after that last SB drive.

I'm apparently a little harder of a grader than you. I don't think Ben has cemented himself as a truly great QB yet. He's on the verge, done some great things in his young career but he's still a few things away from being great. The drive was great but it did not seal the great thing to me. Granted, he has a few good steps towards being great but imo he's not there yet.

[TallyStiller]

The Cheats* at #1? Has anybody informed him that the middle linebacker helmet radio means the video cameras are meaningless? Or that the Pats* 11 - 5 last year was rung up against an atrocious schedule full of AFC and NFC West weaklings and would've been 8 - 8 against a varsity schedule? Or that they're still running out a mediocre pass D that got torched repeatedly last year whenever they played anybody decent?

Yes, Brady's back, but he doesn't play defense... and their offense slowed down significantly in the '07 playoffs WITH Brady - 21 in the AFCC, 14 in the SB, meaning that anybody thinking that they're just going to roll in and outscore quality teams like in '07 is likely mistaken. Add to that the fact that it often takes two years for a player to get back to 100% after a serious knee injury (see: Palmer, Carson and McNabb, Donovan), and I think the Pats have a LOT more question marks going forward into next season than we do.

That said, I like that they get all the hype, and our boys get to feel disrespected while we polish our trophy. Sets up nicely for getting another one. ONE FOR THE OTHER... uhhh... pinky? index finger? We gotta work on the new slogan.

[steelers43]

The Cheats* at #1? Has anybody informed him that the middle linebacker helmet radio means the video cameras are meaningless? Or that the Pats* 11 - 5 last year was rung up against an atrocious schedule full of AFC and NFC West weaklings and would've been 8 - 8 against a varsity schedule? Or that they're still running out a mediocre pass D that got torched repeatedly last year whenever they played anybody decent?

Yes, Brady's back, but he doesn't play defense... and their offense slowed down significantly in the '07 playoffs WITH Brady - 21 in the AFCC, 14 in the SB, meaning that anybody thinking that they're just going to roll in and outscore quality teams like in '07 is likely mistaken. Add to that the fact that it often takes two years for a player to get back to 100% after a serious knee injury (see: Palmer, Carson and McNabb, Donovan), and I think the Pats have a LOT more question marks going forward into next season than we do.

That said, I like that they get all the hype, and our boys get to feel disrespected while we polish our trophy. Sets up nicely for getting another one. ONE FOR THE OTHER... uhhh... pinky? index finger? We gotta work on the new slogan.

I certainly don't think their defense is an issue. If anything, it is a positive imo.

[flippy]

I read that MMQB this morning, and smiled when I read the quote from Ben's friend saying that the best thing that could have happened to him was not being MVP of the Super Bowl. Bradshaw didn't win a SBMVP until #3 and #4. Keeps him hungry. Love it.

A motivated Ben is a good thing.

Hopefully Ben will get MVP in his 4th, 5th, and 6th.

Who is going to be MVP in his 3rd?

James Harrison

[frankthetank1]

new england is number one? thats a joke. as much of a joke as the bears being a top 5 team. their defense is going to be worse than last season.

[Oviedo]

I would hope he still feels motivation but I can see how someone might not work as hard, given a $100 mill contract and two SB's already.

Hopefully he garners motivation from whatever. Sad that he may need something to motivate him but regardless.

I'm also less worried about Hines than most. If Ben is truly a great QB he will make marginal receivers better and hopefully more consistent.

The OL is only getting stronger, the defense is only getting stronger, the receivers and backs are deeper and better imo while the schedule gets softer.

About the only worry I have is a fat Ben showing up for camp. By the pictures of mini camp, that isn't happening. Sure he is still soft and could be in better shape but he's not JaMarcus Russell just happy to be there and ordering bling.

uhh....Ben had 100 mill before the second SB win and plenty of people said he wouldn't be hungry to win a SB after the contract.

and enough with the "if Ben is truly great" talk... LOL!!!

exactly.

Ben is already great. There is no doubt after that last SB drive.

I'm apparently a little harder of a grader than you. I don't think Ben has cemented himself as a truly great QB yet. He's on the verge, done some great things in his young career but he's still a few things away from being great. The drive was great but it did not seal the great thing to me. Granted, he has a few good steps towards being great but imo he's not there yet.

I agree with you. Ben has to do a better job of taking what a defense gives him. He needs to more consistently use his TEs and RBs and get rid of the ball quicker. In a clutch he is still the guy I want but on the routine plays I'd like to see more consistency. He leaves too many opportunties on the field.

Ben has the ability to be one of the greatest QBs in NFL history not because of gawdy stats but much like Bradshaw because of winning. Like Bradshaw he could win four Super Bowls maybe more. But to think he is a finished product is just wrong.

[Oviedo]

The Cheats* at #1? Has anybody informed him that the middle linebacker helmet radio means the video cameras are meaningless? Or that the Pats* 11 - 5 last year was rung up against an atrocious schedule full of AFC and NFC West weaklings and would've been 8 - 8 against a varsity schedule? Or that they're still running out a mediocre pass D that got torched repeatedly last year whenever they played anybody decent?

Yes, Brady's back, but he doesn't play defense... and their offense slowed down significantly in the '07 playoffs WITH Brady - 21 in the AFCC, 14 in the SB, meaning that anybody thinking that they're just going to roll in and outscore quality teams like in '07 is likely mistaken. Add to that the fact that it often takes two years for a player to get back to 100% after a serious knee injury (see: Palmer, Carson and McNabb, Donovan), and I think the Pats have a LOT more question marks going forward into next season than we do.

That said, I like that they get all the hype, and our boys get to feel disrespected while we polish our trophy. Sets up nicely for getting another one. ONE FOR THE OTHER... uhhh... pinky? index finger? We gotta work on the new slogan.

As much as we hate the Pats don't underestimate them. They are still a top 5 team. This year will be interesting because I think for the first time in 5 years they will actually becahallenged within their own division. Miami will probably take a step back but they will be a good team. The Jets will be better on defense and Clemmens is a better QB than he is getting credit for. Bills will still be pathetic and turn into a circus when the losses add up and TO implodes.

[SteelBucks]

new england is number one? thats a joke. as much of a joke as the bears being a top 5 team. their defense is going to be worse than last season.

No surprise....King's been slobbering over the Pats for years. It seems worse now since he recently moved to Boston.

[frankthetank1]

The Cheats* at #1? Has anybody informed him that the middle linebacker helmet radio means the video cameras are meaningless? Or that the Pats* 11 - 5 last year was rung up against an atrocious schedule full of AFC and NFC West weaklings and would've been 8 - 8 against a varsity schedule? Or that they're still running out a mediocre pass D that got torched repeatedly last year whenever they played anybody decent?

Yes, Brady's back, but he doesn't play defense... and their offense slowed down significantly in the '07 playoffs WITH Brady - 21 in the AFCC, 14 in the SB, meaning that anybody thinking that they're just going to roll in and outscore quality teams like in '07 is likely mistaken. Add to that the fact that it often takes two years for a player to get back to 100% after a serious knee injury (see: Palmer, Carson and McNabb, Donovan), and I think the Pats have a LOT more question marks going forward into next season than we do.

That said, I like that they get all the hype, and our boys get to feel disrespected while we polish our trophy. Sets up nicely for getting another one. ONE FOR THE OTHER... uhhh... pinky? index finger? We gotta work on the new slogan.

As much as we hate the Pats don't underestimate them. They are still a top 5 team. This year will be interesting because I think for the first time in 5 years they will actually becahallenged within their own division. Miami will probably take a step back but they will be a good team. The Jets will be better on defense and Clemmens is a better QB than he is getting credit for. Bills will still be pathetic and turn into a circus when the losses add up and TO implodes.

i actually think the bills will be a much better team. the way their offense looks now is scary good. evans opposite to will be tough for most defenses to stop. im sure the pats will lose at least one game to them. the pats defense last year was average. they lost their best cb and the secondary was weak last year. their offense may be great next season but i dont see their defense improving any

[steelers43]

I would hope he still feels motivation but I can see how someone might not work as hard, given a $100 mill contract and two SB's already.

Hopefully he garners motivation from whatever. Sad that he may need something to motivate him but regardless.

I'm also less worried about Hines than most. If Ben is truly a great QB he will make marginal receivers better and hopefully more consistent.

The OL is only getting stronger, the defense is only getting stronger, the receivers and backs are deeper and better imo while the schedule gets softer.

About the only worry I have is a fat Ben showing up for camp. By the pictures of mini camp, that isn't happening. Sure he is still soft and could be in better shape but he's not JaMarcus Russell just happy to be there and ordering bling.

uhh....Ben had 100 mill before the second SB win and plenty of people said he wouldn't be hungry to win a SB after the contract.

and enough with the "if Ben is truly great" talk... LOL!!!

exactly.

Ben is already great. There is no doubt after that last SB drive.

I'm apparently a little harder of a grader than you. I don't think Ben has cemented himself as a truly great QB yet. He's on the verge, done some great things in his young career but he's still a few things away from being great. The drive was great but it did not seal the great thing to me. Granted, he has a few good steps towards being great but imo he's not there yet.

I agree with you. Ben has to do a better job of taking what a defense gives him. He needs to more consistently use his TEs and RBs and get rid of the ball quicker. In a clutch he is still the guy I want but on the routine plays I'd like to see more consistency. He leaves too many opportunties on the field.

Ben has the ability to be one of the greatest QBs in NFL history not because of gawdy stats but much like Bradshaw because of winning. Like Bradshaw he could win four Super Bowls maybe more. But to think he is a finished product is just wrong.

exactly, Ben's made some tremendous physical plays but he also wouldn't need many of those plays if he had previously not made huge mental mistakes. If he masters the mental part of the game, he'll be one of the all time greats.

Most say our OL sucks but it is hard to block when you repeatedly get blitzed and run gapped as teams know the QB won't react fast, is more likely to pull it down than make a quick read/adjustement. Then a few games, we started with great tempo and shockingly our run game looked better and Ben had time to pass and our Ol suddenly didn't suck.

The main problem with this team lies in Bruce Arians, his ability to coach Ben or Ben's learning prowess or learning curve. I can only hope it is Ben's learning curve and he takes yet another step mentally. If it's Arians, don't expect Ben to progress. Expect him to take sacks, hits and make mental farts. The only thing that may improve it is a better RB in Mendy.

[stlrz d]

Some of you need to camp out in front of the tube for awhile and tune in to NFLN.

They've been showing a TON of Steelers games this week (started over the weekend) and it's lots of fun to see Ben doing the things people say he doesn't do...checking down, hitting RBs out of the backfield, finding the TE over the middle, etc...

It's really fun to hear the talk that takes place on the sidelines too...those who question his football intelligence would be enlightened to hear just how much he understands the game and what's going on for sure.

That is if you can bring yourself to admit you are wrong about that.

I guess since I am not currently part of the workforce I have the luxury of being able to watch, but I'll tell you it's been lots of fun to see him do those things folks say he doesn't do and to hear him say things that show he clearly is football intelligent.

At this point the only legitimate knocks on Ben are that he sometimes holds onto the ball too long in an attempt to extend the play (or to make the big play) and that sometimes his long ball isn't as accurate as we would like. It's pretty good (not great but pretty good) when he's healthy but when he was hurt he was very much under throwing Nate. That part about Nate is referring to this past season of course. In games from '05 his deep ball accuracy looked very good.

[Slapstick]

A more demanding QB coach may help Roethlisberger take his game to the next level...it may also prolong his career...

[grotonsteel]

Steelers need to improve Red Zone Offense.

They need a bruiser RB who can punch the football in the end zone for TD. Mendy should help in that regard.

[AngryAsian]

exactly, Ben's made some tremendous physical plays but he also wouldn't need many of those plays if he had previously not made huge mental mistakes. If he masters the mental part of the game, he'll be one of the all time greats.

Most say our OL sucks but it is hard to block when you repeatedly get blitzed and run gapped as teams know the QB won't react fast, is more likely to pull it down than make a quick read/adjustement. Then a few games, we started with great tempo and shockingly our run game looked better and Ben had time to pass and our Ol suddenly didn't suck.

The main problem with this team lies in Bruce Arians, his ability to coach Ben or Ben's learning prowess or learning curve. I can only hope it is Ben's learning curve and he takes yet another step mentally. If it's Arians, don't expect Ben to progress. Expect him to take sacks, hits and make mental farts. The only thing that may improve it is a better RB in Mendy.


What I hate about the "One of the All Time Greatest" statements is that statistics always placates into the argument. No one ever puts Bradshaw into this category, because his statistics weren't off the charts. But name me any other QB who has won 4 SBs... right Montana and surely you hear him get mentioned as one of the all time greats... then why not Bradshaw? This is how its going to play in the Ben argument. He's going to win one more championship (I have no doubt) but will always be a footnote and not included in that company of "One of the Greatest." Why? I have no clue... call it the disrespect card, but the analysts are never quick to jump on a Black and Gold bandwagon... regardless of what football subject you may be discussing.

[SteelCzar76]

new england is number one? thats a joke. as much of a joke as the bears being a top 5 team. their defense is going to be worse than last season.

No surprise....King's been slobbering over the Pats for years. It seems worse now since he recently moved to Boston.


I think it's also a matter of the fact that in truth the Patsies led by Brady typically "have our number" so to speak,....especially in the playoffs. (though it may turn our stomachs to admit this.) And we haven't done anything to discount this as we have not gone through them to win either of our most recent titles.

And as such,.. most pundits though not typically for us or necessarily "against" us,.. generally give them (Patsies) the edge over us in terms of their said "Rankings".

Bottom line,..until we defeat them when it really counts,...i expect as much favoritism (if you will) towards them (Patsies) from anyone associated with the game that's not part of Steeler Nation. Glory is earned,....not given.

[RuthlessBurgher]

new england is number one? thats a joke. as much of a joke as the bears being a top 5 team. their defense is going to be worse than last season.

No surprise....King's been slobbering over the Pats for years. It seems worse now since he recently moved to Boston.


I think it's also a matter of the fact that in truth the Patsies led by Brady typically "have our number" so to speak,....especially in the playoffs. (though it may turn our stomachs to admit this.) And we haven't done anything to discount this as we have not gone through them to win either of our most recent titles.

And as such,.. most pundits though not typically for us or necessarily "against" us,.. generally give them (Patsies) the edge over us in terms of their said "Rankings".

Bottom line,..until we defeat them when it really counts,...i expect as much favoritism (if you will) towards them (Patsies) from anyone associated with the game that's not part of Steeler Nation. Glory is earned,....not given.

Well, the last time Ben faced New England in the playoffs, he was a rookie and SpyGate hadn't happened yet to put a stop to any of Belichick's...ahem..."questionable" practices *cough*cheater*cough*

[SteelCzar76]

new england is number one? thats a joke. as much of a joke as the bears being a top 5 team. their defense is going to be worse than last season.

No surprise....King's been slobbering over the Pats for years. It seems worse now since he recently moved to Boston.


I think it's also a matter of the fact that in truth the Patsies led by Brady typically "have our number" so to speak,....especially in the playoffs. (though it may turn our stomachs to admit this.) And we haven't done anything to discount this as we have not gone through them to win either of our most recent titles.

And as such,.. most pundits though not typically for us or necessarily "against" us,.. generally give them (Patsies) the edge over us in terms of their said "Rankings".

Bottom line,..until we defeat them when it really counts,...i expect as much favoritism (if you will) towards them (Patsies) from anyone associated with the game that's not part of Steeler Nation. Glory is earned,....not given.

Well, the last time Ben faced New England in the playoffs, he was a rookie and SpyGate hadn't happened yet to put a stop to any of Belichick's...ahem..."questionable" practices *cough*cheater*cough*


:lol: :lol: I feel you Ruthless. I think the difference this go round may well be Tomlin's demeanor. He doesn't seem as though he will be nervous in any sense when we play them and thereby give any off suspect energy in terms of the chances for victory to the guys on the field.

Coach Cowher was and still is my guy,..but he had a look in his eyes that said apprehension or doubt to me when we played them in the last title game ?

[stlrz d]

I loved Cowher as our coach too, but there were times I got that feeling that he was apprehensive or intimidated by an opponent.

I hated it when it would happen too. There was just something about the look on his face at certain times. You could just tell those cheeks (not the ones you could see) were clenched tighter than a drum head.

[pfelix73]

No one has commented about the highlighted words "deep roster". Is O questioning that we have a deep roster? I believe that we do. That's why it will be hard for a lot of these rooks to make the team out of camp. We have a veteran bunch of players right now.

As far as NE- I'm not convinced their defense will be up to playoff caliber this year. All those rooks will be a year or 2 to develop. IMO.

:tt1

[Oviedo]

No one has commented about the highlighted words "deep roster". Is O questioning that we have a deep roster? I believe that we do. That's why it will be hard for a lot of these rooks to make the team out of camp. We have a veteran bunch of players right now.

As far as NE- I'm not convinced their defense will be up to playoff caliber this year. All those rooks will be a year or 2 to develop. IMO.

:tt1

I am absolutely not questioning it because I do believe we have a deep roster. I highlighted it because there have been contentions as a backhanded criticism of Tomlin that we have nothing behind the Cowher procured starters. I believe just the oppoosite is true. The Tomlin additions to the line up is what has taken us to the level we are at now.

[Oviedo]

No one has commented about the highlighted words "deep roster". Is O questioning that we have a deep roster? I believe that we do. That's why it will be hard for a lot of these rooks to make the team out of camp. We have a veteran bunch of players right now.

As far as NE- I'm not convinced their defense will be up to playoff caliber this year. All those rooks will be a year or 2 to develop. IMO.

:tt1

I am absolutely not questioning it because I do believe we have a deep roster. I highlighted it because there have been contentions as a backhanded criticism of Tomlin that we have nothing behind the Cowher procured starters. I believe just the oppoosite is true. The Tomlin additions to the line up is what has taken us to the level we are at now.

[SteelCzar76]

The Tomlin additions to the line up is what has taken us to the level we are at now.

Not being cynical O,...but i honestly want to understand this perspective. Whom are these players (Tomlin additions that are responsible for taking us to our current level of play) outside of Lamar Woodley ?

[Slapstick]

Several players added under Tomlin's tenure who made significant contributions to the team's success (other than LaMarr Woodley):

Offense: Mewelde Moore and Darnell Stapleton...where would the Steelers have been last year without them?

Defense: Lawrence Timmons and William Gay

Special Teams: Patrick Bailey and Keyaron Fox

All of them made plays when their numbers were called...

This year: Rashard Mendenhall and Daniel Sepulveda will be back from injury...Limas Sweed will play a larger role and Kraig Urbik may start on day one...

[SteelCzar76]

Several players added under Tomlin's tenure who made significant contributions to the team's success (other than LaMarr Woodley):

Offense: Mewelde Moore and Darnell Stapleton...where would the Steelers have been last year without them?

Defense: Lawrence Timmons and William Gay

Special Teams: Patrick Bailey and Keyaron Fox

All of them made plays when their numbers were called...

This year: Rashard Mendenhall and Daniel Sepulveda will be back from injury...Limas Sweed will play a larger role and Kraig Urbik may start on day one...



I can understand this perspective. However, i consider all of these players average to say the least and would not consider them players that "took us to the next level",....or players that we would be set back significantly by their loss.

Don't get me wrong,...they are solid "role players". But certainly no different than dozens of other guys throughout the league that could have been brought in to put forth the same productivity.

So how exactly are their inductions to the roster a mark of such a great eye for talent as opposed to just simply collecting the average backup talent quality bodies that one prefers out of the pool of of those type of players available be it via the Draft or Free agency ?

[RuthlessBurgher]

Several players added under Tomlin's tenure who made significant contributions to the team's success (other than LaMarr Woodley):

Offense: Mewelde Moore and Darnell Stapleton...where would the Steelers have been last year without them?

Defense: Lawrence Timmons and William Gay

Special Teams: Patrick Bailey and Keyaron Fox

All of them made plays when their numbers were called...

This year: Rashard Mendenhall and Daniel Sepulveda will be back from injury...Limas Sweed will play a larger role and Kraig Urbik may start on day one...



I can understand this perspective. However, i consider all of these players average to say the least and would not consider them players that "took us to the next level",....or players that we would be set back significantly by their loss.

Don't get me wrong,...their solid "role players". But certainly no different than dozens of other guys throughout the league that could have been brought in to put forth the same productivity.

So how exactly are their inductions to the roster a mark of such a great eye for talent as opposed to just simply collecting the average backup talent quality bodies that one prefers out of the pool of of those type of players available be it via the Draft or Free agency ?

Well, the Steelers do not make a big splash in free agency (which is an organizational philosophy for years, not a Tomlin-specific thing), so you can't really expect the free agents that are brought in to be much more than solid (not spectacular) players such as Moore and Fox (it is not often that we are able to get a Farrior or Hartings via free agency).

And since Tomlin has only been coach for 2 years, how can you expect his draft classes to have already displayed elite ability on the playing field already? Except for some very rare exceptions, rookies do not contribute much in their first year except in situational roles (there are exceptions such as Roethlisberger starting as a rookie due to injury, but most rookies either have a redshirt year or perhaps play on special teams or on a rotational basis). Rookies start to get regular playing time in year two, with the best of them challenging for starting roles in year 3. Of the guys Tomlin drafted when he first came here, Timmons is now a starting ILB, Woodley a starting OLB, Gay a starting CB, Sepulveda a starting P, UDFA Stapleton a starting RG, and Spaeth an occassional starter at TE (since Arians likes to start in 2 TE's sets at times). After being injured as a rookie, Mendenhall is slated to split time with Parker this season and will possibly be the full-time starter next season if they do not re-sign Parker. It took Sweed some time to adjust to playing WR in the NFL as a rookie (as it does for most WR's) but he has been improving and is slated for a bigger role this season, playing in passing situations in 3 and 4 WR to take the place of Nate this season. We do not know anything tangible about this rookie class we brought in last month.

[Oviedo]

Expecting "elite status" for Steelers first or second year players just demonstrates a clear lack of understanding how the Steelers do business. They don't force players into the line up because of draft status. They put players in when the are ready which particularly on defense is after 2 years. It's called setting players up for success which leads to the team being successful.

However ignoing this philosophy I guess permits an opportunity to constantly criticize which is probably the desired intent anyway.

I'd like to know what other NFL teams have "elite" players in greater quantities than the Steelers or have back ups who are considered "elite."

[SteelCzar76]

Several players added under Tomlin's tenure who made significant contributions to the team's success (other than LaMarr Woodley):

Offense: Mewelde Moore and Darnell Stapleton...where would the Steelers have been last year without them?

Defense: Lawrence Timmons and William Gay

Special Teams: Patrick Bailey and Keyaron Fox

All of them made plays when their numbers were called...

This year: Rashard Mendenhall and Daniel Sepulveda will be back from injury...Limas Sweed will play a larger role and Kraig Urbik may start on day one...



I can understand this perspective. However, i consider all of these players average to say the least and would not consider them players that "took us to the next level",....or players that we would be set back significantly by their loss.

Don't get me wrong,...their solid "role players". But certainly no different than dozens of other guys throughout the league that could have been brought in to put forth the same productivity.

So how exactly are their inductions to the roster a mark of such a great eye for talent as opposed to just simply collecting the average backup talent quality bodies that one prefers out of the pool of of those type of players available be it via the Draft or Free agency ?

Well, the Steelers do not make a big splash in free agency (which is an organizational philosophy for years, not a Tomlin-specific thing), so you can't really expect the free agents that are brought in to be much more than solid (not spectacular) players such as Moore and Fox (it is not often that we are able to get a Farrior or Hartings via free agency).

And since Tomlin has only been coach for 2 years, how can you expect his draft classes to have already displayed elite ability on the playing field already? Except for some very rare exceptions, rookies do not contribute much in their first year except in situational roles (there are exceptions such as Roethlisberger starting as a rookie due to injury, but most rookies either have a redshirt year or perhaps play on special teams or on a rotational basis). Rookies start to get regular playing time in year two, with the best of them challenging for starting roles in year 3. Of the guys Tomlin drafted when he first came here, Timmons is now a starting ILB, Woodley a starting OLB, Gay a starting CB, Sepulveda a starting P, UDFA Stapleton a starting RG, and Spaeth an occassional starter at TE (since Arians likes to start in 2 TE's sets at times). After being injured as a rookie, Mendenhall is slated to split time with Parker this season and will possibly be the full-time starter next season if they do not re-sign Parker. It took Sweed some time to adjust to playing WR in the NFL as a rookie (as it does for most WR's) but he has been improving and is slated for a bigger role this season, playing in passing situations in 3 and 4 WR to take the place of Nate this season. We do not know anything tangible about this rookie class we brought in last month.


I'am well aware of how we traditionally handle free agency Ruthless,...that's not what i am really concerned with.

As i have mentioned before i personally just am not as impressed with any of the aforementioned players outside of Wood as others are. IMO,..the verdict is no more in terms of Mendenhall, Sweed, Davis, Spaeth, Gay or Sepulveda than any of the players brought in last month. And i still regard Timmons as a solid but unexceptional player,...whom is a bit in over his head at ILB. (I really was absolutely indifferent in terms of the average Journeyman FA's)

And as such i was curious as to exactly why someone would state that they were such crucial components to our success last season. Ie; with Supelveda, Mendenhall,and Davis on the bench,...Timmons and Gay playing adequately in spot duty,...and Sweed doing nearly nothing all season outside of throwing a nice crack back block against the Rats.

As opposed to the Elite players whom were already here stepping their games up at crucial moments to win games and or continuing their level of ultra productive play. (Ie: Troy, Aaron, Casey, Silverback, Santonio, Heath, Potsie, Hines and even Ben in the big dance and Willie against the Chargers in the divisional round) along with the Woodley's play. (whom is head and shoulders above any of the other post Cowher additions to our roster as a football player.)

[frankthetank1]

new england is number one? thats a joke. as much of a joke as the bears being a top 5 team. their defense is going to be worse than last season.

No surprise....King's been slobbering over the Pats for years. It seems worse now since he recently moved to Boston.


I think it's also a matter of the fact that in truth the Patsies led by Brady typically "have our number" so to speak,....especially in the playoffs. (though it may turn our stomachs to admit this.) And we haven't done anything to discount this as we have not gone through them to win either of our most recent titles.

And as such,.. most pundits though not typically for us or necessarily "against" us,.. generally give them (Patsies) the edge over us in terms of their said "Rankings".

Bottom line,..until we defeat them when it really counts,...i expect as much favoritism (if you will) towards them (Patsies) from anyone associated with the game that's not part of Steeler Nation. Glory is earned,....not given.

its that reason right there is why they shouldnt be a favorite to win anything. they havent won a sb in quite some time. the steelers on the other hand have won 2 in the last 4 seasons or so. they might of had are number in the past but that was when their defense was good and in their prime. you need a good secondary if your going to be a contender everyone knows that. it could be argued that new england has the worst or one of the worst secondary's in the afc east. thats pathetic

[Slapstick]

I can understand this perspective. However, i consider all of these players average to say the least and would not consider them players that "took us to the next level",....or players that we would be set back significantly by their loss.

Don't get me wrong,...they are solid "role players". But certainly no different than dozens of other guys throughout the league that could have been brought in to put forth the same productivity.

So how exactly are their inductions to the roster a mark of such a great eye for talent as opposed to just simply collecting the average backup talent quality bodies that one prefers out of the pool of of those type of players available be it via the Draft or Free agency ?

I understand that YOU consider all of the players I listed to be "average"...by that same token, I consider them to be key components of a Super Bowl Championship team...

You CAN SAY that they are no different than dozens of othr guys throughout the league...the thing is that THEY ARE, in fact, different...they earned Super Bowl rings last year...they all made key contributions to the team during the course of the season and in the playoffs...

The difference is that you're dealing with hypotheticals and speculation...I am dealing with what actually happened...

[SteelCzar76]

The difference is that you're dealing with hypotheticals and speculation...I am dealing with what actually happened...

Again this is a matter of your perspective more so than truth. As would it not be a more truthful and or "actual" evaluation to consider the success that actually came to fruition last season to be far more a by product of Coach leabeau's Defense and the play of the cats that i mentioned earlier,... as opposed to any of your beloved new "grits guys" with the exception again of Lammar Woodley which there is nothing "ordinary" about in terms of his talent and or productivity ?

You are entitled to your admiration of any and all moves made by the organization no matter if they're successful or not. You are entitled to the right to consider everyone on our roster exceptional players just simply because they are on the team in whatever capacity. That's fantastic,..and i am happy for you. And we can just agree to disagree.

However,....miss me with the Pom Poms. :lol:

[Slapstick]

Again this is a matter of your perspective more so than truth. As would it not be a more truthful and or "actual" evaluation to consider the success that actually came to fruition last season to be far more a by product of Coach leabeau's Defense and the play of the cats that i mentioned earlier,... as opposed to any of your beloved new "grits guys" with the exception again of Lammar Woodley which there is nothing "ordinary" about in terms of his talent and or productivity ?

You are entitled to your admiration of any and all moves made by the organization no matter if they're successful or not. You are entitled to the right to consider everyone on our roster exceptional players just simply because they are on the team in whatever capacity. That's fantastic,..and i am happy for you. And we can just agree to disagree.

However,....miss me with the Pom Poms. :lol:

The most truthful and "actual" evaluation is this:

Coaches coach and players play...

Coach LeBeau's defensive schemes can only put players in a position to make plays...the players themselves have to execute...Coach LeBeau, as brilliant as he is, can't go out on the field and execute all of the players' assignments...

You seem to be more concerned with the Steelers fielding what is, in your opinion, exceptionally talented players...I am concerned with the Steelers winning championships...

If that means that I'm waving the pom-poms, so be it...

All I care about is my team winning...you can have whatever agenda you want...

[stlrz d]

I'am well aware of how we traditionally handle free agency Ruthless,...that's not what i am really concerned with.

As i have mentioned before i personally just am not as impressed with any of the aforementioned players outside of Wood as others are. IMO,..the verdict is no more in terms of Mendenhall, Sweed, Davis, Spaeth, Gay or Sepulveda than any of the players brought in last month. And i still regard Timmons as a solid but unexceptional player,...whom is a bit in over his head at ILB. (I really was absolutely indifferent in terms of the average Journeyman FA's)

And as such i was curious as to exactly why someone would state that they were such crucial components to our success last season. Ie; with Supelveda, Mendenhall,and Davis on the bench,...Timmons and Gay playing adequately in spot duty,...and Sweed doing nearly nothing all season outside of throwing a nice crack back block against the Rats.

As opposed to the Elite players whom were already here stepping their games up at crucial moments to win games and or continuing their level of ultra productive play. (Ie: Troy, Aaron, Casey, Silverback, Santonio, Heath, Potsie, Hines and even Ben in the big dance and Willie against the Chargers in the divisional round) along with the Woodley's play. (whom is head and shoulders above any of the other post Cowher additions to our roster as a football player.)

Timmons and Gay played a lot more than spot duty. That right there shows you're not grounded in the reality of this championship team.

[RuthlessBurgher]

Coach LeBeau, as brilliant as he is, can't go out on the field and execute all of the players' assignments...

I don't know about that. Sure, he turns 72 the day before the season starts, but he looks like he keeps himself in good enough shape to beat the Browns, Lions, Rams, and Chiefs all by himself (kinda like the old SNL "Mini Ditka" skit). :mrgreen:

[SteelCzar76]

Timmons and Gay played a lot more than spot duty. That right there shows you're not grounded in the reality of this championship team.

So what your saying D is that without Timmons and Gay,...we would not have won a World Title last season ?,....Riiiiiiight. :lol:

Of course we need bodies ( depth),...but they provided no more productivity than as i said before,....dozens of other average role players in the NFL could. I am aware that some of you believe Timmons to be a "great" and or elite player,....but i suppose now that Gay is as well ? :lol:

Dude, saying William Gay is an elite Corner because he will start for US in particular is like saying he's the brightest kid in Special Ed. We've been doing the sub par project corner thing for years now. (and we only get away with because of the play of the front seven and safeties to a lesser degree)

[Oviedo]

Timmons and Gay played a lot more than spot duty. That right there shows you're not grounded in the reality of this championship team.

So what your saying D is that without Timmons and Gay,...we would not have won a World Title last season ?,....Riiiiiiight. :lol:

Of course we need bodies ( depth),...but they provided no more productivity than as i said before,....dozens of other average role players in the NFL could. I am aware that some of you believe Timmons to be a "great" and or elite player,....but i suppose now that Gay is as well ? :lol:

Dude, saying William Gay is an elite Corner because he will start for US in particular is like saying he's the brightest kid in Special Ed. We've been doing the sub par project corner thing for years now. (and we only get away with because of the play of the front seven and safeties to a lesser degree)


I think it will help everyone understand where you are coming from if you provide your criteria for being considered "elite." Do you have some examples of players you consider elite and what makes them that way? Not just on the Steelers but also on other teams. I think that would help everyone alot.

[frankthetank1]

Timmons and Gay played a lot more than spot duty. That right there shows you're not grounded in the reality of this championship team.

So what your saying D is that without Timmons and Gay,...we would not have won a World Title last season ?,....Riiiiiiight. :lol:

Of course we need bodies ( depth),...but they provided no more productivity than as i said before,....dozens of other average role players in the NFL could. I am aware that some of you believe Timmons to be a "great" and or elite player,....but i suppose now that Gay is as well ? :lol:

Dude, saying William Gay is an elite Corner because he will start for US in particular is like saying he's the brightest kid in Special Ed. We've been doing the sub par project corner thing for years now. (and we only get away with because of the play of the front seven and safeties to a lesser degree)

timmons and gay were not the only reasons they won the sb but would they have won the sb or gotten that far without them? i doubt it. who would of played cb when deshea and bmac were hurt? bryant haha? you think the defense would have been just as good with foote playing all the time? i dont especially against the cards. even elite players need guys like gay and timmons around them. they may not be superstars but they are extremly important role players. both timmons and gay are very young and have tons of potential. no one can deny that

[stlrz d]

Timmons and Gay played a lot more than spot duty. That right there shows you're not grounded in the reality of this championship team.

So what your saying D is that without Timmons and Gay,...we would not have won a World Title last season ?,....Riiiiiiight. :lol:

Of course we need bodies ( depth),...but they provided no more productivity than as i said before,....dozens of other average role players in the NFL could. I am aware that some of you believe Timmons to be a "great" and or elite player,....but i suppose now that Gay is as well ? :lol:

Dude, saying William Gay is an elite Corner because he will start for US in particular is like saying he's the brightest kid in Special Ed. We've been doing the sub par project corner thing for years now. (and we only get away with because of the play of the front seven and safeties to a lesser degree)

Gay was talented enough to start in McFadden's absence, and played so well that they continued to split time when McFadden returned.

They couldn't keep Gay on the sideline because he was too good to waste just standing there.

Timmons made many big plays throughout the season, and many of them were 3rd down drive stoppers that got the ball back for our offense.

Would we have won without them? You're basing your argument on me proving something that can't be proved. I can't remember what that's called, but in a debate it is an automatic sign that the person using that tactic can't refute the facts.

All we know for sure is that the two of them played more than "spot duty" and that they both contributed to a championship season.

And where in my OP did you see the word elite???

[Slapstick]

Gay was talented enough to start in McFadden's absence, and played so well that they continued to split time when McFadden returned.

They couldn't keep Gay on the sideline because he was too good to waste just standing there.

Timmons made many big plays throughout the season, and many of them were 3rd down drive stoppers that got the ball back for our offense.

Would we have won without them? You're basing your argument on me proving something that can't be proved. I can't remember what that's called, but in a debate it is an automatic sign that the person using that tactic can't refute the facts.

All we know for sure is that the two of them played more than "spot duty" and that they both contributed to a championship season.

And where in my OP did you see the word elite???

There are several fallacies at work in his argument...


Whom are these players (Tomlin additions that are responsible for taking us to our current level of play) outside of Lamar Woodley ?

As an answer, I gave six separate names, two each on offense, defense and special teams...the question then changed to "elite" players (a fallacy called "Moving the Goalpost")...which leads to the second and third fallacies...

The "Psychologist's Fallacy": when someone presupposes the objectivity of their own viewpoint...

The "Bare Assertion Fallacy": when someone assumes that their argument is true because they say it is true...

Opinions are fine, of course...everyone is entitled to one...and they are entitled to present it on this board...

Fallacies just make it difficult or impossible to debate such opinions...

[Crash]

Maybe one of these days Ben can become as "great" as Drew Brees is.

[pfelix73]

Oh brother, we were debating that on another thread. One that I started, I think. All because of that NYG dude saying something on ESPN the other day.

I was going to get in on this conversation about the what if's and what not's, but there's some big words being thrown around, so I better stay out of it- for now.

Just remember one thing folks, and this is something simple:

There's no I in TEAM. It takes 53 men, a coaching staff, FO, and the Steeler Nation of fans to win a SB.............

Football is the ultimate team sport. :tt1

[steelcityrules!!]

Timmons and Gay played a lot more than spot duty. That right there shows you're not grounded in the reality of this championship team.

So what your saying D is that without Timmons and Gay,...we would not have won a World Title last season ?,....Riiiiiiight. :lol:

Of course we need bodies ( depth),...but they provided no more productivity than as i said before,....dozens of other average role players in the NFL could. I am aware that some of you believe Timmons to be a "great" and or elite player,....but i suppose now that Gay is as well ? :lol:

Dude, saying William Gay is an elite Corner because he will start for US in particular is like saying he's the brightest kid in Special Ed. We've been doing the sub par project corner thing for years now. (and we only get away with because of the play of the front seven and safeties to a lesser degree)

Timmons and Gay aside, this team goes nowhere without mewelde moore last season. he made more critical plays on offense for the stillers only second to ben over the course of the season. He was an outstanding FA pickup, who could easily fall into your waste bin of "average role players" in terms of career statistics, but was just another critical cog in that big wheel that churned out a championship for the Tomlin led steelers.

[Slapstick]

Timmons and Gay aside, this team goes nowhere without mewelde moore last season. he made more critical plays on offense for the stillers only second to ben over the course of the season. He was an outstanding FA pickup, who could easily fall into your waste bin of "average role players" in terms of career statistics, but was just another critical cog in that big wheel that churned out a championship for the Tomlin led steelers.

Oh, come on!! Anyone could have done that!!! :Blah

[Oviedo]

Timmons and Gay played a lot more than spot duty. That right there shows you're not grounded in the reality of this championship team.

So what your saying D is that without Timmons and Gay,...we would not have won a World Title last season ?,....Riiiiiiight. :lol:

Of course we need bodies ( depth),...but they provided no more productivity than as i said before,....dozens of other average role players in the NFL could. I am aware that some of you believe Timmons to be a "great" and or elite player,....but i suppose now that Gay is as well ? :lol:

Dude, saying William Gay is an elite Corner because he will start for US in particular is like saying he's the brightest kid in Special Ed. We've been doing the sub par project corner thing for years now. (and we only get away with because of the play of the front seven and safeties to a lesser degree)

Timmons and Gay aside, this team goes nowhere without mewelde moore last season. he made more critical plays on offense for the stillers only second to ben over the course of the season. He was an outstanding FA pickup, who could easily fall into your waste bin of "average role players" in terms of career statistics, but was just another critical cog in that big wheel that churned out a championship for the Tomlin led steelers.

C'mon. He's "plain as grits" and therefore incapable of significant contributions. Since he was acquired under Tomlin he is no way "elite" and only "elite" players matter because its all about individuals. If you're not "elite" (still anxiously awaiting to find out what that is) you are of little value and simply another piece in the inevitable collapse of the Steelers; particularly if you joined the Steelers' roster after February 2007

[steelcityrules!!]

Timmons and Gay played a lot more than spot duty. That right there shows you're not grounded in the reality of this championship team.

So what your saying D is that without Timmons and Gay,...we would not have won a World Title last season ?,....Riiiiiiight. :lol:

Of course we need bodies ( depth),...but they provided no more productivity than as i said before,....dozens of other average role players in the NFL could. I am aware that some of you believe Timmons to be a "great" and or elite player,....but i suppose now that Gay is as well ? :lol:

Dude, saying William Gay is an elite Corner because he will start for US in particular is like saying he's the brightest kid in Special Ed. We've been doing the sub par project corner thing for years now. (and we only get away with because of the play of the front seven and safeties to a lesser degree)

Timmons and Gay aside, this team goes nowhere without mewelde moore last season. he made more critical plays on offense for the stillers only second to ben over the course of the season. He was an outstanding FA pickup, who could easily fall into your waste bin of "average role players" in terms of career statistics, but was just another critical cog in that big wheel that churned out a championship for the Tomlin led steelers.

C'mon. He's "plain as grits" and therefore incapable of significant contributions. Since he was acquired under Tomlin he is no way "elite" and only "elite" players matter because its all about individuals. If you're not "elite" (still anxiously awaiting to find out what that is) you are of little value and simply another piece in the inevitable collapse of the Steelers; particularly if you joined the Steelers' roster after February 2007


sorry boys, I call it like i watched it...
:D

some on here are locked into their agenda's no matter the reality or lack thereof.
we see year in, year out, the "elite" players collected by the cowboys and redskins... and routinely they fold down the stretch.

the elite "teams" are comprised of smart, versatile players who buy into the system put forth by the FO and the coaches.

the blueprint for repeated success and deep playoff runs is out in the open for all to use, yet teams continue to do otherwise.

it's quite funny, teams are willing to compromise success for the next flash in the pan who will sell tickets, yet it's repeated success on the field that will ensure financial and undying support.

:wft

[stlrz d]

We've got Timmons replacing Foote. Last season he had 65 tackles, 5 sacks, 1 FF and 1 pick...not even playing full time.

The Rats will be replacing Bart Scott with either Jameel McClain (16 tackles, 2.5 sacks) or Tavares Gooden (5 tackles).

Which situation would you rather be in...hmmmmmmm....

[Discipline of Steel]

Timmons and Gay aside, this team goes nowhere without mewelde moore last season. he made more critical plays on offense for the stillers only second to ben over the course of the season. He was an outstanding FA pickup, who could easily fall into your waste bin of "average role players" in terms of career statistics, but was just another critical cog in that big wheel that churned out a championship for the Tomlin led steelers.

I think that is a big key to the Tomlin led Steelers. Everyone is a role player. Last year both Timmons and Foote had their roles. Moore was plucked out of his role as 3rd down back, only to succeed in Fast Willie Parkers role. Ben had the role as leader. James Harrison had the role as intimidator. Now we look at the draft, lots of role players selected here. One guy does KO returns. One does short yardage. One stretches the field. I think Tomlins success through the coming years will be based on how well he assembles his role players into a team concept were everyone is the best at the one thing they do for the team. Please pass the kool-aid.

[Steelerphile]

In the free agency, salary cap era, if you examine the most recent SuperBowl winners, it will be seen that none of these teams are loaded with flashy all-pros at every position, the way that someone may think.

Whether it be New England, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, Tampa Bay, the New York Giants, Green Bay or others. New England, for example, has a handful of elites, Brady and a few others and then the roster is filled in with unexceptional players, or talented role players who are coached and utilized well. That is how it always is. The talent level across the league is pretty even.

I reject the notion of regarding a human being in the same way that one would regard a grit. A grit being an inanimate foodstuff, and a human being possessing a mind and a spirit. Every human is unique in a way that a grit cannot be. Even though thousands have played the position of RB, DB or whatever, no two players play these positions exactly the same way.

I also reject the idea that a coach wins with someone elses players. When the new coach comes in, they become HIS players. They are then subject to his direction, coaching and utilization. I don't remember but did people whine about Bill Cowher winning with Noll's players when he first came in? Of course, basically the same team went 7-9 in 1991 under Noll and went 11-5 in 1992 under Cowher. Basically the same team, different result, Why? because they were Cowher's players then and were responding better to his energy and style.

Let's also stop trying to give Dick LeBeau all the credit for the team's success. LeBeau is an outstanding coordinator, but he failed in his attempt to be a head coach. It requires some different attributes. A team cannot be successful with an empty suit as head coach and an outstanding coordinator. This has been shown. Tomlin has the respect of team. They are definitely buying in and he has done IMO an excellent job.

When it comes to Timmons. It is contradictory that someone who seemingly prefers the flashy player, exhibits a preference for Foote who is less flashy than Timmons. I like Foote, but Timmons is better. Timmons outplayed Foote in less playing time. Timmons could have played full-time last year but Foote was too good to keep on the bench. That situation was untenable for the future however. The Steelers will be better at that position with Timmons in there more often.

[Discipline of Steel]

I also reject the idea that a coach wins with someone elses players. When the new coach comes in, they become HIS players. They are then subject to his direction, coaching and utilization. I don't remember but did people whine about Bill Cowher winning with Noll's players when he first came in? Of course, basically the same team went 7-9 in 1991 under Noll and went 11-5 in 1992 under Cowher. Basically the same team, different result, Why? because they were Cowher's players then and were responding better to his energy and style.


Exactly. Just look at the Bylsma led Penguinos, he is doing BETTER with another coaches players.

[Oviedo]

[quote]Timmons and Gay played a lot more than spot duty. That right there shows you're not grounded in the reality of this championship team.

So what your saying D is that without Timmons and Gay,...we would not have won a World Title last season ?,....Riiiiiiight. :lol:

Of course we need bodies ( depth),...but they provided no more productivity than as i said before,....dozens of other average role players in the NFL could. I am aware that some of you believe Timmons to be a "great" and or elite player,....but i suppose now that Gay is as well ? :lol:

Dude, saying William Gay is an elite Corner because he will start for US in particular is like saying he's the brightest kid in Special Ed. We've been doing the sub par project corner thing for years now. (and we only get away with because of the play of the front seven and safeties to a lesser degree)

Timmons and Gay aside, this team goes nowhere without mewelde moore last season. he made more critical plays on offense for the stillers only second to ben over the course of the season. He was an outstanding FA pickup, who could easily fall into your waste bin of "average role players" in terms of career statistics, but was just another critical cog in that big wheel that churned out a championship for the Tomlin led steelers.

C'mon. He's "plain as grits" and therefore incapable of significant contributions. Since he was acquired under Tomlin he is no way "elite" and only "elite" players matter because its all about individuals. If you're not "elite" (still anxiously awaiting to find out what that is) you are of little value and simply another piece in the inevitable collapse of the Steelers; particularly if you joined the Steelers' roster after February 2007


sorry boys, I call it like i watched it...
:D

some on here are locked into their agenda's no matter the reality or lack thereof.
we see year in, year out, the "elite" players collected by the cowboys and redskins... and routinely they fold down the stretch.

the elite "teams" are comprised of smart, versatile players who buy into the system put forth by the FO and the coaches.

the blueprint for repeated success and deep playoff runs is out in the open for all to use, yet teams continue to do otherwise.

it's quite funny, teams are willing to compromise success for the next flash in the pan who will sell tickets, yet it's repeated success on the field that will ensure financial and undying support.

:wft[/quote:b62i54qt]

You do realize I was being sarcastic and agree with your 100% don't you?

[Slapstick]

Incidentally, I also reject the notion that grits are plain...

If somebody is under the mistaken impression that grits have to be plain, they obviously have not tasted properly prepared grits... :lol:

[steelcityrules!!]

You do realize I was being sarcastic and agree with you 100% don't you?

absolutely.
the reality of our success, and the success of our new coach has been hammered home cleanly and accurately by many on this board this week.

great time to be a fan.
:tt2