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PSU_dropout43
05-09-2009, 01:25 PM
Profootballtalk.com

Agent Drew Rosenhaus, after a 24-hour respite, is again posting information about his clients via his Twitter account.

As to Steelers linebacker Lawrence Timmons, whose status on the depth chart has risen after the departure of Larry Foote, Rosenhaus says that [he] is very excited to be the starter for the steelers. Coach Tomlin told me he has a chance to be one of the best in the NFL.


Yes. Crown his ass before he gets in a full season.

Slapstick
05-09-2009, 01:36 PM
So, you're saying that there is NO CHANCE that he could be one of the best in the NFL?

SteelCzar76
05-09-2009, 01:39 PM
Don't trip,...Tomlin will personally see to it that the organization pays Timmons nearly whatever Rosenhaus demands. No matter if he (Timmons) plays well, poorly or simply just performs adequately. (Especially the latter,..because then Tomlin and the cheerleaders of Steeler Nation will say "Just give him more time,....he's GONNA be the best in the game"!) :lol: :lol:

Slapstick
05-09-2009, 01:40 PM
Don't trip,...Tomlin will personally see to it that the organization pays Timmons nearly whatever Rosenhaus demands. No matter if he (Timmons) plays well, poorly or simply just performs adequately. (Especially the latter,..because then Tomlin and the cheerleaders of Steeler Nation will say "Just give him more time,....he's GONNA be the best in the game"!) :lol: :lol:

Truly a rational and objective opinion... :roll:

SteelCzar76
05-09-2009, 01:58 PM
Don't trip,...Tomlin will personally see to it that the organization pays Timmons nearly whatever Rosenhaus demands. No matter if he (Timmons) plays well, poorly or simply just performs adequately. (Especially the latter,..because then Tomlin and the cheerleaders of Steeler Nation will say "Just give him more time,....he's GONNA be the best in the game"!) :lol: :lol:

Truly a rational and objective opinion... :roll:

That was sarcasm. But I'm sure that to one with your perspective it's impossible to even fathom the concept that to Mike Tomlin,...his 'man crushes' on particular players, along with the need of his ego to be surrounded by submissive players to kowtow before him might supercede actual X's and O's and or bringing in players that will actually IMPROVE the team.(as opposed to simply adding depth)

MaxAMillion
05-09-2009, 02:47 PM
Don't trip,...Tomlin will personally see to it that the organization pays Timmons nearly whatever Rosenhaus demands. No matter if he (Timmons) plays well, poorly or simply just performs adequately. (Especially the latter,..because then Tomlin and the cheerleaders of Steeler Nation will say "Just give him more time,....he's GONNA be the best in the game"!) :lol: :lol:

Truly a rational and objective opinion... :roll:

That was sarcasm. But I'm sure that to one with your perspective it's impossible to even fathom the concept that to Mike Tomlin,...his 'man crushes' on particular players, along with the need of his ego to be surrounded by submissive players to kowtow before him might supercede actual X's and O's and or bringing in players that will actually IMPROVE the team.(as opposed to simply adding depth)

What actual evidence is there that he wants submissive players over players that will improve the team? Most every coach wants to avoid controversy. Does that mean that most coaches want submissive players over players who will actually improve the team?

Amazing how a coach that wins the Super Bowl can be so insecure, stupid and conniving.

SteelCzar76
05-09-2009, 03:01 PM
Don't trip,...Tomlin will personally see to it that the organization pays Timmons nearly whatever Rosenhaus demands. No matter if he (Timmons) plays well, poorly or simply just performs adequately. (Especially the latter,..because then Tomlin and the cheerleaders of Steeler Nation will say "Just give him more time,....he's GONNA be the best in the game"!) :lol: :lol:

Truly a rational and objective opinion... :roll:

That was sarcasm. But I'm sure that to one with your perspective it's impossible to even fathom the concept that to Mike Tomlin,...his 'man crushes' on particular players, along with the need of his ego to be surrounded by submissive players to kowtow before him might supercede actual X's and O's and or bringing in players that will actually IMPROVE the team.(as opposed to simply adding depth)

What actual evidence is there that he wants submissive players over players that will improve the team? Most every coach wants to avoid controversy. Does that mean that most coaches want submissive players over players who will actually improve the team?

Amazing how a coach that wins the Super Bowl can be so insecure, stupid and conniving.


Oh i'm not saying that a coach whom stepped in and properly motivated a roster mostly comprised of players that he did not have anything to do with being here, along with allowing the truly exceptionally football mind of Dick Lebeau to do it's thing,...is stupid by any means.

Perhaps egotistical, self righteous, misguided and stubborn regarding whats actually best for the team's success in terms of personnel,.....but not stupid. :lol:

Slapstick
05-09-2009, 03:42 PM
Yet another rational and objective opinion... :Bow

Your intellect is truly dizzying...

fordfixer
05-09-2009, 03:57 PM
Play nice you two :lol:

SteelCzar76
05-09-2009, 04:48 PM
Yet another rational and objective opinion... :Bow

Your intellect is truly dizzying...

Hey,...i know,..i don't have "Tomlin and his guys" spirit fingers,......yoooouuu've got "Tomlin and his guys" spirit fingers,.....

http://images.girlossary.com/images/sports-cheerleading-5520.gif

but i think i'll manage without them. :lol: :lol:

Discipline of Steel
05-09-2009, 05:11 PM
I say Tomlin deserves credit for this season and the future holds the rest of the story. I dont see any room to bash him at this point without knowing the future.

steelcityrules!!
05-09-2009, 05:45 PM
Yet another rational and objective opinion... :Bow

Your intellect is truly dizzying...

Hey,...i know,..i don't have "Tomlin and his guys" spirit fingers,......yoooouuu've got "Tomlin and his guys" spirit fingers,.....

http://images.girlossary.com/images/sports-cheerleading-5520.gif

but i think i'll manage without them. :lol: :lol:


is all the hate on Tomlin (superbowl winning coach, coach of the year) and Lawrence Timmons because your man-crush was passed by us in the first round, and we opted to not go for the typical bengals player?

just wondering, you sound like you inhaled about 3 lbs of really sour grapes.

SteelCzar76
05-09-2009, 07:04 PM
Yet another rational and objective opinion... :Bow

Your intellect is truly dizzying...

Hey,...i know,..i don't have "Tomlin and his guys" spirit fingers,......yoooouuu've got "Tomlin and his guys" spirit fingers,.....

http://images.girlossary.com/images/sports-cheerleading-5520.gif

but i think i'll manage without them. :lol: :lol:


is all the hate on Tomlin (superbowl winning coach, coach of the year) and Lawrence Timmons because your man-crush was passed by us in the first round, and we opted to not go for the typical bengals player?

just wondering, you sound like you inhaled about 3 lbs of really sour grapes.


Not at all SteelCity. It has more to do with the fact that with the LONE exception of Wood (And possibly Summers and Ship) ......all of the cats drafted and or brought in via free agency under Tomlin's regime resemble a class of Notre Dame recruits. :lol: (how's the mediocrity of that talent working out for them ?)

You know,...guys with good "character" that unfortunately holds no weight in terms of them being exceptionally talented and or productive football players on the field against their peers.

In a perfect world,...you'd be a dominant football team by just stocking your roster with "nice guys" whose talent is as "ordinary as a Bowl of Grits". But this is no such world and such a philosophy (Grits) will catch up with this organization at some point,.."please believe it."

Don't get me wrong,..the guy's (Tomlin) a charismatic, articulate and passionate leader,...but i'm not sold on what he regards as the type of personnel necessary to build a great football team. Very, Very ordinary sure,.....but not great.

SteelCzar76
05-09-2009, 09:08 PM
What actual evidence is there that he wants submissive players over players that will improve the team?


Lawrence Timmons

Rashard Mendenhall

Limas Sweed (even though i like the kid)

Evander Hood

Carey Davis

Keenan Lewis

Matt Spaeth

Ra'shon Harris

Bruce Davis

Daniel Sepulveda

MicroBioSteel
05-10-2009, 05:17 AM
This thread is on a one way path to uglyville but here is my 2 cents.

From what I have seen from Tomlin I believe:

1) Tomlin is a leader of men. While I liked Cowher I feel like he only excelled in motivating the team when he could use the disrespect card (i.e. we were underdogs) See 2005-2006 and AFC Championship losses for example. Tomlin does not let team play down to opponents because he has them playing for something else....PERFECTION.

2) Tomlin's demeanor is more suited for big games. Calm cool and collected is more valuable from a coach in a big game than raw emotion. it's a big game...the players have enough of this already. What they need is a leader to direct the ship and take the blame if something goes wrong thereby freeing the players to play lose.

3) Tomlin takes more than talent into consideration. I believe this is the main reason the Rooneys hired him. Both the Rooneys and Tomlin realize that talent, muscle, and even brains only take you so far in the NFL. There is no combine metric for HEART. The gold standard for Heart being Hines Ward. I would take a team of average football players with his heart any day and I bet they would be winners.

While it may be provocative to question Tomlin and his picks, until we see error I fall lock step wit this man. He can change and over time weakness can and probably will be found. (Example: Like Cowher playing vets to long even when there was more talent ad heart sitting on the bench).

Why am I writing so well at 4:15 AM. I'm sick and drunk!

AngryAsian
05-10-2009, 06:16 AM
This thread is on a one way path to uglyville but here is my 2 cents.

From what I have seen from Tomlin I believe:

1) Tomlin is a leader of men. While I liked Cowher I feel like he only excelled in motivating the team when he could use the disrespect card (i.e. we were underdogs) See 2005-2006 and AFC Championship losses for example. Tomlin does not let team play down to opponents because he has them playing for something else....PERFECTION.

2) Tomlin's demeanor is more suited for big games. Calm cool and collected is more valuable from a coach in a big game than raw emotion. it's a big game...the players have enough of this already. What they need is a leader to direct the ship and take the blame if something goes wrong thereby freeing the players to play lose.

3) Tomlin takes more than talent into consideration. I believe this is the main reason the Rooneys hired him. Both the Rooneys and Tomlin realize that talent, muscle, and even brains only take you so far in the NFL. There is no combine metric for HEART. The gold standard for Heart being Hines Ward. I would take a team of average football players with his heart any day and I bet they would be winners.

While it may be provocative to question Tomlin and his picks, until we see error I fall lock step wit this man. He can change and over time weakness can and probably will be found. (Example: Like Cowher playing vets to long even when there was more talent ad heart sitting on the bench).

Why am I writing so well at 4:15 AM. I'm sick and drunk!


Logic in excess.... as well as alcohol, I assume. :D

Northern_Blitz
05-11-2009, 10:00 AM
Don't trip,...Tomlin will personally see to it that the organization pays Timmons nearly whatever Rosenhaus demands. No matter if he (Timmons) plays well, poorly or simply just performs adequately. (Especially the latter,..because then Tomlin and the cheerleaders of Steeler Nation will say "Just give him more time,....he's GONNA be the best in the game"!) :lol: :lol:

Truly a rational and objective opinion... :roll:

That was sarcasm. But I'm sure that to one with your perspective it's impossible to even fathom the concept that to Mike Tomlin,...his 'man crushes' on particular players, along with the need of his ego to be surrounded by submissive players to kowtow before him might supercede actual X's and O's and or bringing in players that will actually IMPROVE the team.(as opposed to simply adding depth)

So Tomlin has a "man crush" on Timmons, and will do anything to make him seem successful, even if he isn't.

You do realize that Tomlin decided to put Timmons behind an UDFA and a guy that was drafted a round later in the same draft, right? Timmons has so much favoritism from the coach that he wasn't the starter last year, even though he ended up making more plays than the guy that was ahead of him on the depth chart. Maybe I should say at his new position, because he couldn't beat out the other guys for the position he was drafted. I don't see how you could see favoritism in the treatment of Timmons.

Tomlin is playing guys based on merit. That's why Harrison and Woodly are starting at OLB. That's why Foote started the year last year. It's also why Foote didn't play on passing downs. And now, it's why Timmons will be the starting ILB. He showed that he can play last year.

Last year's stats:

Player---------Tackles-----Solo----Sack-----FF-------Int--
----------------------------------------------------------
Foote-----------63---------34-----1.5------1---------0---
Timmons--------65---------43------5-------1---------1---

In less plays, Timmons had more tackles, more solo tackles, more sacks, and more Ints than Foote. So he made more plays, and more impact plays with less of an opportunity.

Perhaps, instead of asking why Tomlin has a man crush on Timmons, we should be asking why you have a man crush on Foote.

feltdizz
05-11-2009, 10:55 AM
Don't trip,...Tomlin will personally see to it that the organization pays Timmons nearly whatever Rosenhaus demands. No matter if he (Timmons) plays well, poorly or simply just performs adequately. (Especially the latter,..because then Tomlin and the cheerleaders of Steeler Nation will say "Just give him more time,....he's GONNA be the best in the game"!) :lol: :lol:

Truly a rational and objective opinion... :roll:

That was sarcasm. But I'm sure that to one with your perspective it's impossible to even fathom the concept that to Mike Tomlin,...his 'man crushes' on particular players, along with the need of his ego to be surrounded by submissive players to kowtow before him might supercede actual X's and O's and or bringing in players that will actually IMPROVE the team.(as opposed to simply adding depth)

So Tomlin has a "man crush" on Timmons, and will do anything to make him seem successful, even if he isn't.

You do realize that Tomlin decided to put Timmons behind an UDFA and a guy that was drafted a round later in the same draft, right? Timmons has so much favoritism from the coach that he wasn't the starter last year, even though he ended up making more plays than the guy that was ahead of him on the depth chart. Maybe I should say at his new position, because he couldn't beat out the other guys for the position he was drafted. I don't see how you could see favoritism in the treatment of Timmons.

Tomlin is playing guys based on merit. That's why Harrison and Woodly are starting at OLB. That's why Foote started the year last year. It's also why Foote didn't play on passing downs. And now, it's why Timmons will be the starting ILB. He showed that he can play last year.

Last year's stats:

Player---------Tackles-----Solo----Sack-----FF-------Int--
----------------------------------------------------------
Foote-----------63---------34-----1.5------1---------0---
Timmons--------65---------43------5-------1---------1---

In less plays, Timmons had more tackles, more solo tackles, more sacks, and more Ints than Foote. So he made more plays, and more impact plays with less of an opportunity.

Perhaps, instead of asking why Tomlin has a man crush on Timmons, we should be asking why you have a man crush on Foote.
:Agree

Czar...... :owned

SteelCzar76
05-11-2009, 10:59 AM
Don't trip,...Tomlin will personally see to it that the organization pays Timmons nearly whatever Rosenhaus demands. No matter if he (Timmons) plays well, poorly or simply just performs adequately. (Especially the latter,..because then Tomlin and the cheerleaders of Steeler Nation will say "Just give him more time,....he's GONNA be the best in the game"!) :lol: :lol:

Truly a rational and objective opinion... :roll:

That was sarcasm. But I'm sure that to one with your perspective it's impossible to even fathom the concept that to Mike Tomlin,...his 'man crushes' on particular players, along with the need of his ego to be surrounded by submissive players to kowtow before him might supercede actual X's and O's and or bringing in players that will actually IMPROVE the team.(as opposed to simply adding depth)

So Tomlin has a "man crush" on Timmons, and will do anything to make him seem successful, even if he isn't.

You do realize that Tomlin decided to put Timmons behind an UDFA and a guy that was drafted a round later in the same draft, right? Timmons has so much favoritism from the coach that he wasn't the starter last year, even though he ended up making more plays than the guy that was ahead of him on the depth chart. Maybe I should say at his new position, because he couldn't beat out the other guys for the position he was drafted. I don't see how you could see favoritism in the treatment of Timmons.

Tomlin is playing guys based on merit. That's why Harrison and Woodly are starting at OLB. That's why Foote started the year last year. It's also why Foote didn't play on passing downs. And now, it's why Timmons will be the starting ILB. He showed that he can play last year.

Last year's stats:

Player---------Tackles-----Solo----Sack-----FF-------Int--
----------------------------------------------------------
Foote-----------63---------34-----1.5------1---------0---
Timmons--------65---------43------5-------1---------1---

In less plays, Timmons had more tackles, more solo tackles, more sacks, and more Ints than Foote. So he made more plays, and more impact plays with less of an opportunity.

Perhaps, instead of asking why Tomlin has a man crush on Timmons, we should be asking why you have a man crush on Foote.




Man Crush on Foote ? :lol: Dude,.. i put no single player and or coach before the organization. Though i,.. like everyone else,.. has/had particular favorite Steelers and former Steelers. Rod (all time), Kevin Greene, Carnell, Bussey, Levon, Yancey, Peezy, Troy and Aaron. But as you see,..Foote is not listed. (though i have always felt as though he handled his business)

It's not a matter of how highly i regard Foote or not,..it's a matter of how much disregard that i have for Timmons. How many times must i beat this deceased horse ?. Timmons has never successfully produced as a full time Middle or inside backer other than possibly pop warner and or High school. He is an undersized, pursuit, 4-3 outside backer, (be it weak or strong side) that wasn't exactly all that impressive in his single year as a starter at FSU. (I personally know FSU people that considered him merely solid but nothing special.)

Tomlin's crush upon him is evident to me because he was even drafted in the first place when he was not the best backer in a relatively weak class...and he is the absolute antithesis of what we have done for years in terms of bringing in guys to play the position.

Ie:The large for a backer yet small for a DE athletic collegiate tweeners outside,..and inside backers whom are stout against the run, strong players with ability and technique to sift through trash in the trenches for the duration of an NFL season. (Not to mention the fact that they ACTUALLY WERE MLB's in college in the case of the latter)

As far as the stats you mentioned,...how could Foote amass more sacks when he was taken off of the field on obvious passing downs which are the most opportune times to get after sacks. As well as even be in coverage to make attempts at interceptions ? And because Timmons played decently in spot duty,..all of the sudden he's going to be one of the best ILB's in the game ?!!!

The bottom line is,... Timmons is Tomlin's guy all day long and he is most certainly partial to him on a personal level as well as professionally because he wants to be "right" about him being an elite player when in actuality he's not.

Can i comprehend how you people cannot see this ? No,..but you are entitled to your opinions and or your decision to believe whatever you wish to believe to be so,...no matter how illogical it sounds to me or anyone else based upon their opinion, perspective and or knowledge of the game.

SteelCzar76
05-11-2009, 11:04 AM
Don't trip,...Tomlin will personally see to it that the organization pays Timmons nearly whatever Rosenhaus demands. No matter if he (Timmons) plays well, poorly or simply just performs adequately. (Especially the latter,..because then Tomlin and the cheerleaders of Steeler Nation will say "Just give him more time,....he's GONNA be the best in the game"!) :lol: :lol:

Truly a rational and objective opinion... :roll:

That was sarcasm. But I'm sure that to one with your perspective it's impossible to even fathom the concept that to Mike Tomlin,...his 'man crushes' on particular players, along with the need of his ego to be surrounded by submissive players to kowtow before him might supercede actual X's and O's and or bringing in players that will actually IMPROVE the team.(as opposed to simply adding depth)

So Tomlin has a "man crush" on Timmons, and will do anything to make him seem successful, even if he isn't.

You do realize that Tomlin decided to put Timmons behind an UDFA and a guy that was drafted a round later in the same draft, right? Timmons has so much favoritism from the coach that he wasn't the starter last year, even though he ended up making more plays than the guy that was ahead of him on the depth chart. Maybe I should say at his new position, because he couldn't beat out the other guys for the position he was drafted. I don't see how you could see favoritism in the treatment of Timmons.

Tomlin is playing guys based on merit. That's why Harrison and Woodly are starting at OLB. That's why Foote started the year last year. It's also why Foote didn't play on passing downs. And now, it's why Timmons will be the starting ILB. He showed that he can play last year.

Last year's stats:

Player---------Tackles-----Solo----Sack-----FF-------Int--
----------------------------------------------------------
Foote-----------63---------34-----1.5------1---------0---
Timmons--------65---------43------5-------1---------1---

In less plays, Timmons had more tackles, more solo tackles, more sacks, and more Ints than Foote. So he made more plays, and more impact plays with less of an opportunity.

Perhaps, instead of asking why Tomlin has a man crush on Timmons, we should be asking why you have a man crush on Foote.
:Agree

Czar...... :owned


Fizz,....grown folks are talking here. :lol:

RuthlessBurgher
05-11-2009, 11:24 AM
How many times must i beat this deceased horse?

I don't know. How much longer do you plan to continue?

http://images.boardgamegeek.com/images/pic302439.jpg

papillon
05-11-2009, 11:31 AM
One thing is for sure and that is we'll have the answer to this debate in the upcoming season. Last year's defense has placed the bar very high for this year's defense to aim. Whether they are as stifling as last year's or not remains to be seen. Timmons will either be able to hold down the middle or he won't and it will be evident quickly once the season begins.

If teams are having success running in the middle of the Steeler defense we'll have to say that Timmons is not suited to be there; however, if the run defense remains stout then it will be difficult to criticize Timmons and Tomlin's choice to play him in the middle.

Those still attempting to discredit Tomlin and his managing of the Steeler football team look a bit lost when the man, his coaching staff and players just delivered Lombardi #6 to Heinz Field this past year.

That's just my two cents. If Timmons works out, great for the Steelers, if he doesn't then back to the drawing board. Remember, Harrison is 30 years old; Timmons could just be holding down the middle until he can take Harrison's spot in 3 or 4 year's time. He'll still only be 26 or 27 years old in 4 years.

Patience is a virtue lost on many.

Pappy

flippy
05-11-2009, 12:58 PM
Don't trip,...Tomlin will personally see to it that the organization pays Timmons nearly whatever Rosenhaus demands. No matter if he (Timmons) plays well, poorly or simply just performs adequately. (Especially the latter,..because then Tomlin and the cheerleaders of Steeler Nation will say "Just give him more time,....he's GONNA be the best in the game"!) :lol: :lol:

Truly a rational and objective opinion... :roll:

That was sarcasm. But I'm sure that to one with your perspective it's impossible to even fathom the concept that to Mike Tomlin,...his 'man crushes' on particular players, along with the need of his ego to be surrounded by submissive players to kowtow before him might supercede actual X's and O's and or bringing in players that will actually IMPROVE the team.(as opposed to simply adding depth)

What actual evidence is there that he wants submissive players over players that will improve the team? Most every coach wants to avoid controversy. Does that mean that most coaches want submissive players over players who will actually improve the team?

Amazing how a coach that wins the Super Bowl can be so insecure, stupid and conniving.


Oh i'm not saying that a coach whom stepped in and properly motivated a roster mostly comprised of players that he did not have anything to do with being here, along with allowing the truly exceptionally football mind of bad word Lebeau to do it's thing,...is stupid by any means.

Perhaps egotistical, self righteous, misguided and stubborn regarding whats actually best for the team's success in terms of personnel,.....but not stupid. :lol:

Who should Mike Tomlin have brought in?

Timmons is already starting to have a huge impact on this team at a very young age.

You might even be able to argue that Timmons is having a bigger impact on the team than any other Steelers player Tomlin drafted.

While it might not seem obvious when just comparing Timmons' stats to Woodley's, it's Timmons that's freed up Troy Polamalu to be a better safety.

We didn't have a LB that can run with RBs, TEs, and WRs down the field.

Timmons was drafted for a reason.

And everyone knew it was going to take time for him to develop.

SteelCzar76
05-11-2009, 01:13 PM
One thing is for sure and that is we'll have the answer to this debate in the upcoming season. Last year's defense has placed the bar very high for this year's defense to aim. Whether they are as stifling as last year's or not remains to be seen. Timmons will either be able to hold down the middle or he won't and it will be evident quickly once the season begins.

If teams are having success running in the middle of the Steeler defense we'll have to say that Timmons is not suited to be there; however, if the run defense remains stout then it will be difficult to criticize Timmons and Tomlin's choice to play him in the middle.

Those still attempting to discredit Tomlin and his managing of the Steeler football team look a bit lost when the man, his coaching staff and players just delivered Lombardi #6 to Heinz Field this past year.

That's just my two cents. If Timmons works out, great for the Steelers, if he doesn't then back to the drawing board. Remember, Harrison is 30 years old; Timmons could just be holding down the middle until he can take Harrison's spot in 3 or 4 year's time. He'll still only be 26 or 27 years old in 4 years.

Patience is a virtue lost on many.

Pappy



Very well said Pap,..i just happen to give more credit for our recent success to Coach Lebeau, his defense and the select group of playmaking studs and the few solid role players that were already on this roster prior to Tomlin's arrival.

Tomlin is a great motivator, and great speaker,..but he has nothing to do at all with the aforementioned things. And it's my opinion that to annoint him a "great" and or flawless head coach at this time is a bit premature to say the least.(Ie: Gruden early in Tampa)

How can his ability be properly assessed until he is without Coach Lebeau,....and all of the starters outside of Woodley on the roster are his brand of mediocre "Grits" players ?

Northern_Blitz
05-11-2009, 01:47 PM
As far as the stats you mentioned,...how could Foote amass more sacks when he was taken off of the field on obvious passing downs which are the most opportune times to get after sacks. As well as even be in coverage to make attempts at interceptions ? And because Timmons played decently in spot duty,..all of the sudden he's going to be one of the best ILB's in the game ?!!!


First (and maybe most important) point. I'm not saying that Timmon will be one of the best ILB's in the game. The person saying that is Timmon's agent. You know, the guy that gets paid to build the hype for Timmons. What I'm saying is that Timmons looks like he will be better than Foote, and he won the job based on performance.

You're right that we should expect Timmons to make more sacks and picks than Foote did last year. He did just that. Maybe it would be better to look at the number of Sacks Foote's have over his career.

Foote became a starter in 2004 and started every game since then for the Steelers. He's ammased 14.5 sacks in that time. His highest yearly total was 4. He's had three picks in that time, never more than 1 a year. So as a part time player, Timmons got more sacks than Foote ever got in a season. He also tied Foote's career high for Ints. I think that this still supports the arguement that Timmons is more of an impact player than Foote.

The other side of your arguement would be that we should expect Foote to have had more tackles than Timmons because he was in the game on running downs and his primary job is usually to stop the run. Instead Timmons had more tackles. I think that says something about Timmons' range and ability to read plays.

The one thing we don't know about Timmons is how durable he'll be. IMO Foote was a durable guy who was solid, if unspectacular. We don't know about Timmons, but he's listed as being about the same weight as Foote (5 lbs lighter). If he can stay healthy, I think his play last year is reason for excitement.

Ultimately, we'll see what happens this year. But, I'm happy that we won't be paying a back-up linebacker who didn't want to be here over $3 M.

papillon
05-11-2009, 02:51 PM
One thing is for sure and that is we'll have the answer to this debate in the upcoming season. Last year's defense has placed the bar very high for this year's defense to aim. Whether they are as stifling as last year's or not remains to be seen. Timmons will either be able to hold down the middle or he won't and it will be evident quickly once the season begins.

If teams are having success running in the middle of the Steeler defense we'll have to say that Timmons is not suited to be there; however, if the run defense remains stout then it will be difficult to criticize Timmons and Tomlin's choice to play him in the middle.

Those still attempting to discredit Tomlin and his managing of the Steeler football team look a bit lost when the man, his coaching staff and players just delivered Lombardi #6 to Heinz Field this past year.

That's just my two cents. If Timmons works out, great for the Steelers, if he doesn't then back to the drawing board. Remember, Harrison is 30 years old; Timmons could just be holding down the middle until he can take Harrison's spot in 3 or 4 year's time. He'll still only be 26 or 27 years old in 4 years.

Patience is a virtue lost on many.

Pappy



Very well said Pap,..i just happen to give more credit for our recent success to Coach Lebeau, his defense and the select group of playmaking studs and the few solid role players that were already on this roster prior to Tomlin's arrival.

Tomlin is a great motivator, and great speaker,..but he has nothing to do at all with the aforementioned things. And it's my opinion that to annoint him a "great" and or flawless head coach at this time is a bit premature to say the least.(Ie: Gruden early in Tampa)

How can his ability be properly assessed until he is without Coach Lebeau,....and all of the starters outside of Woodley on the roster are his brand of mediocre "Grits" players ?

I'll assume then that you believe that Bill Cowher was successful because of his coordinators as well. Dom Capers, Dick Lebeau (twice), Whisenhunt, Erhardt all pretty good corrdinators in their own right.

I'm not anointing Tomlin the greatest coach in history (not even in Steeler history), but, he did take an 8-8 team coming off of a lackluster season in which they seemed to sleep walk through some games and made the playoffs. His team was one and done; so, he turns around and takes that team makes a few changes, adapts to injuries and rides his quarterback to a Super Bowl win. That's leadership to me; he's never made an excuse for his team; he won't allow the team to make excuses and expects any player regardless of draft position to perform as well the starter if asked to do so.

You may not be sold on Tomlin, I am, he understands how to lead veterans and rookies alike. The Steelers are in good hands for the foreseeable future. I'd be willing to bet, that save for a handful of teams (if that many), that Mike Tomlin would be a top candidate to run their team if given the opportunity to hire him.

Pappy

Slapstick
05-11-2009, 03:03 PM
Very well said Pap,..i just happen to give more credit for our recent success to Coach Lebeau, his defense and the select group of playmaking studs and the few solid role players that were already on this roster prior to Tomlin's arrival.

Tomlin is a great motivator, and great speaker,..but he has nothing to do at all with the aforementioned things. And it's my opinion that to annoint him a "great" and or flawless head coach at this time is a bit premature to say the least.(Ie: Gruden early in Tampa)

How can his ability be properly assessed until he is without Coach Lebeau,....and all of the starters outside of Woodley on the roster are his brand of mediocre "Grits" players ?

Have you ever evaluated Bill Cowher's success with Coach Lebeau?

Out of 5 non-playoff seasons, only one, 2006, was with LeBeau calling the defense...

Both Super Bowl appearances? Coach LeBeau calling the defense...

And LaMarr Woodley is the very definition of a "grits" player...he's not the biggest nor the fastest, but he just makes plays...I'll take players like that all draft, every draft...

aggiebones
05-11-2009, 04:16 PM
What actual evidence is there that he wants submissive players over players that will improve the team?


Lawrence Timmons

Rashard Mendenhall

Limas Sweed (even though i like the kid)

Evander Hood

Carey Davis

Keenan Lewis

Matt Spaeth

Ra'shon Harris

Bruce Davis

Daniel Sepulveda



I don't get this list at all. Remove Timmons since he's the hot button topic here. Are you saying we should have cut these players to keep someone else? Please expand on why you listed these players. Just because a player is not 'quite' the finished product of a previous player, doesn't mean the other guy IMPROVES the team. If anything the other player would keep things status quo, certainly not improving the team.
Example being, if we keep Foote, we don't improve from last season, we stay the same. They obviously think that Timmons with steady PT will shoot past what Foote could do. This is how they always remain in the playoffs. They find players that eventually outproduce their predecessors. It almost seems like this list was somehow a sarcastic comment, but I don't get it.

RuthlessBurgher
05-11-2009, 04:32 PM
What actual evidence is there that he wants submissive players over players that will improve the team?


Lawrence Timmons

Rashard Mendenhall

Limas Sweed (even though i like the kid)

Evander Hood

Carey Davis

Keenan Lewis

Matt Spaeth

Ra'shon Harris

Bruce Davis

Daniel Sepulveda



I don't get this list at all. Remove Timmons since he's the hot button topic here. Are you saying we should have cut these players to keep someone else? Please expand on why you listed these players. Just because a player is not 'quite' the finished product of a previous player, doesn't mean the other guy IMPROVES the team. If anything the other player would keep things status quo, certainly not improving the team.
Example being, if we keep Foote, we don't improve from last season, we stay the same. They obviously think that Timmons with steady PT will shoot past what Foote could do. This is how they always remain in the playoffs. They find players that eventually outproduce their predecessors. It almost seems like this list was somehow a sarcastic comment, but I don't get it.

I think all of those players had grits for breakfast. Or maybe they are gritty players. I don't know. :wink:

frankthetank1
05-11-2009, 04:53 PM
this thread is ridiculous. why was it when foote was the starter for the last 5 seasons or so no one really had a problem with it. when timmons has a better season and plays less than foote some people have a problem with timmons being the starter? foote made a few mil a year which was VERY generous for his value, no one had a problem with that though. timmons is only in his early 20's he has a ways to go before he reaches his "prime". weather you hated or liked the draft pick of timmons why let that cloud your judgement of him? there have been picks that i hated at the time but it turned out i was wrong. i like being wrong in cases like that. everyone is wrong at some point, even self proclaimed experts. it could be argued that timmons in 2 seasons has progressed better than a player like holmes. considering timmons went from never playing his rookie season to 65 tackles 5 sacks and a int that was returned to the one yard line. yea the guy has no promise, what a bum :roll:

steelers43
05-11-2009, 06:10 PM
One thing is for sure and that is we'll have the answer to this debate in the upcoming season. Last year's defense has placed the bar very high for this year's defense to aim. Whether they are as stifling as last year's or not remains to be seen. Timmons will either be able to hold down the middle or he won't and it will be evident quickly once the season begins.

If teams are having success running in the middle of the Steeler defense we'll have to say that Timmons is not suited to be there; however, if the run defense remains stout then it will be difficult to criticize Timmons and Tomlin's choice to play him in the middle.

Those still attempting to discredit Tomlin and his managing of the Steeler football team look a bit lost when the man, his coaching staff and players just delivered Lombardi #6 to Heinz Field this past year.

That's just my two cents. If Timmons works out, great for the Steelers, if he doesn't then back to the drawing board. Remember, Harrison is 30 years old; Timmons could just be holding down the middle until he can take Harrison's spot in 3 or 4 year's time. He'll still only be 26 or 27 years old in 4 years.

Patience is a virtue lost on many.

Pappy



Very well said Pap,..i just happen to give more credit for our recent success to Coach Lebeau, his defense and the select group of playmaking studs and the few solid role players that were already on this roster prior to Tomlin's arrival.

Tomlin is a great motivator, and great speaker,..but he has nothing to do at all with the aforementioned things. And it's my opinion that to annoint him a "great" and or flawless head coach at this time is a bit premature to say the least.(Ie: Gruden early in Tampa)

How can his ability be properly assessed until he is without Coach Lebeau,....and all of the starters outside of Woodley on the roster are his brand of mediocre "Grits" players ?


very little seperates nfl teams. Talent is there for every team. Knowing your role and letting your staff work for you is a major part of being a quality head coach. One you seem to disregard.

Trying to take away any credit from Tomlin or Cowher is a joke imo.

Getting a team to play and play together at their highest level is what a coach does. You have that and a decent QB and you wins SB's imo.

You want to bang on Bill for anything, bang on him for sticking with Kordell. It's by far his biggest mistake imo. You can't win with a QB who can't throw.

SteelCzar76
05-11-2009, 06:21 PM
One thing is for sure and that is we'll have the answer to this debate in the upcoming season. Last year's defense has placed the bar very high for this year's defense to aim. Whether they are as stifling as last year's or not remains to be seen. Timmons will either be able to hold down the middle or he won't and it will be evident quickly once the season begins.

If teams are having success running in the middle of the Steeler defense we'll have to say that Timmons is not suited to be there; however, if the run defense remains stout then it will be difficult to criticize Timmons and Tomlin's choice to play him in the middle.

Those still attempting to discredit Tomlin and his managing of the Steeler football team look a bit lost when the man, his coaching staff and players just delivered Lombardi #6 to Heinz Field this past year.

That's just my two cents. If Timmons works out, great for the Steelers, if he doesn't then back to the drawing board. Remember, Harrison is 30 years old; Timmons could just be holding down the middle until he can take Harrison's spot in 3 or 4 year's time. He'll still only be 26 or 27 years old in 4 years.

Patience is a virtue lost on many.

Pappy



Very well said Pap,..i just happen to give more credit for our recent success to Coach Lebeau, his defense and the select group of playmaking studs and the few solid role players that were already on this roster prior to Tomlin's arrival.

Tomlin is a great motivator, and great speaker,..but he has nothing to do at all with the aforementioned things. And it's my opinion that to annoint him a "great" and or flawless head coach at this time is a bit premature to say the least.(Ie: Gruden early in Tampa)

How can his ability be properly assessed until he is without Coach Lebeau,....and all of the starters outside of Woodley on the roster are his brand of mediocre "Grits" players ?

I'll assume then that you believe that Bill Cowher was successful because of his coordinators as well. Dom Capers, bad word Lebeau (twice), Whisenhunt, Erhardt all pretty good corrdinators in their own right.

I'm not anointing Tomlin the greatest coach in history (not even in Steeler history), but, he did take an 8-8 team coming off of a lackluster season in which they seemed to sleep walk through some games and made the playoffs. His team was one and done; so, he turns around and takes that team makes a few changes, adapts to injuries and rides his quarterback to a Super Bowl win. That's leadership to me; he's never made an excuse for his team; he won't allow the team to make excuses and expects any player regardless of draft position to perform as well the starter if asked to do so.

You may not be sold on Tomlin, I am, he understands how to lead veterans and rookies alike. The Steelers are in good hands for the foreseeable future. I'd be willing to bet, that save for a handful of teams (if that many), that Mike Tomlin would be a top candidate to run their team if given the opportunity to hire him.

Pappy


As usual very well said Pap. But i have never questioned Tomlin's ability to lead a team to success that already had the vast majority of the components to be successful in place.

I have never questioned his intellect or will either. I simply believe that his same will, and ego in terms of having a roster full of guys that are absolutely in awe of him and follow him and his philosophy utterly and without question supercedes the need for actual talent in his eyes. And henceforth clouds his vision in terms of what is quality personnel.

He will call it,.."looking for ordinary character guys". But it really boils down to him placing his desire to be worshiped by a group of average players because they are not good enough to have any ego themselves,.. above all else. Five more drafts like the three that we've had since he's been here,....and you can kiss success goodbye and welcome your new mistress,.....mediocrity.

Other than that,..he's a good Coach,.....

Slapstick
05-11-2009, 08:08 PM
[As usual very well said Pap. But i have never questioned Tomlin's ability to lead a team to success that already had the vast majority of the components to be successful in place.

I have never questioned his intellect or will either. I simply believe that his same will, and ego in terms of having a roster full of guys that are absolutely in awe of him and follow him and his philosophy utterly and without question supercedes the need for actual talent in his eyes. And henceforth clouds his vision in terms of what is quality personnel.

He will call it,.."looking for ordinary character guys". But it really boils down to him placing his desire to be worshiped by a group of average players because they are not good enough to have any ego themselves,.. above all else. Five more drafts like the three that we've had since he's been here,....and you can kiss success goodbye and welcome your new mistress,.....mediocrity.

Other than that,..he's a good Coach,.....

Wow.

That is an amazing psychological assessment of Coach Tomlin...

How many hours of interviewing him did it take to reach these conclusions?

frankthetank1
05-12-2009, 07:24 AM
One thing is for sure and that is we'll have the answer to this debate in the upcoming season. Last year's defense has placed the bar very high for this year's defense to aim. Whether they are as stifling as last year's or not remains to be seen. Timmons will either be able to hold down the middle or he won't and it will be evident quickly once the season begins.

If teams are having success running in the middle of the Steeler defense we'll have to say that Timmons is not suited to be there; however, if the run defense remains stout then it will be difficult to criticize Timmons and Tomlin's choice to play him in the middle.

Those still attempting to discredit Tomlin and his managing of the Steeler football team look a bit lost when the man, his coaching staff and players just delivered Lombardi #6 to Heinz Field this past year.

That's just my two cents. If Timmons works out, great for the Steelers, if he doesn't then back to the drawing board. Remember, Harrison is 30 years old; Timmons could just be holding down the middle until he can take Harrison's spot in 3 or 4 year's time. He'll still only be 26 or 27 years old in 4 years.

Patience is a virtue lost on many.

Pappy



Very well said Pap,..i just happen to give more credit for our recent success to Coach Lebeau, his defense and the select group of playmaking studs and the few solid role players that were already on this roster prior to Tomlin's arrival.

Tomlin is a great motivator, and great speaker,..but he has nothing to do at all with the aforementioned things. And it's my opinion that to annoint him a "great" and or flawless head coach at this time is a bit premature to say the least.(Ie: Gruden early in Tampa)

How can his ability be properly assessed until he is without Coach Lebeau,....and all of the starters outside of Woodley on the roster are his brand of mediocre "Grits" players ?

I'll assume then that you believe that Bill Cowher was successful because of his coordinators as well. Dom Capers, bad word Lebeau (twice), Whisenhunt, Erhardt all pretty good corrdinators in their own right.

I'm not anointing Tomlin the greatest coach in history (not even in Steeler history), but, he did take an 8-8 team coming off of a lackluster season in which they seemed to sleep walk through some games and made the playoffs. His team was one and done; so, he turns around and takes that team makes a few changes, adapts to injuries and rides his quarterback to a Super Bowl win. That's leadership to me; he's never made an excuse for his team; he won't allow the team to make excuses and expects any player regardless of draft position to perform as well the starter if asked to do so.

You may not be sold on Tomlin, I am, he understands how to lead veterans and rookies alike. The Steelers are in good hands for the foreseeable future. I'd be willing to bet, that save for a handful of teams (if that many), that Mike Tomlin would be a top candidate to run their team if given the opportunity to hire him.

Pappy


As usual very well said Pap. But i have never questioned Tomlin's ability to lead a team to success that already had the vast majority of the components to be successful in place.

I have never questioned his intellect or will either. I simply believe that his same will, and ego in terms of having a roster full of guys that are absolutely in awe of him and follow him and his philosophy utterly and without question supercedes the need for actual talent in his eyes. And henceforth clouds his vision in terms of what is quality personnel.

He will call it,.."looking for ordinary character guys". But it really boils down to him placing his desire to be worshiped by a group of average players because they are not good enough to have any ego themselves,.. above all else. Five more drafts like the three that we've had since he's been here,....and you can kiss success goodbye and welcome your new mistress,.....mediocrity.

Other than that,..he's a good Coach,.....

your opinions of tomlin and timmons are absurd. you obviously have a bias towards them for whatever reason. its a shame you let that bias cloud your judgement of a great coach, player and a great team. the guy won a sb in his second year. im sure you could have done better right? or at least whiz or grimm could of done better right? im sure tomlin would rather have players that worship him rather than tomlin. that is a very intelligent point. way to go with that one. after all its more about popularity rather than winning which is exactly how tomlin feels im sure :roll:

snarky
05-12-2009, 01:29 PM
I have never questioned his intellect or will either. I simply believe that his same will, and ego in terms of having a roster full of guys that are absolutely in awe of him and follow him and his philosophy utterly and without question supercedes the need for actual talent in his eyes. And henceforth clouds his vision in terms of what is quality personnel.
.

So you're saying the Mewelde Moore pickup was just luck?

papillon
05-12-2009, 02:01 PM
One thing is for sure and that is we'll have the answer to this debate in the upcoming season. Last year's defense has placed the bar very high for this year's defense to aim. Whether they are as stifling as last year's or not remains to be seen. Timmons will either be able to hold down the middle or he won't and it will be evident quickly once the season begins.

If teams are having success running in the middle of the Steeler defense we'll have to say that Timmons is not suited to be there; however, if the run defense remains stout then it will be difficult to criticize Timmons and Tomlin's choice to play him in the middle.

Those still attempting to discredit Tomlin and his managing of the Steeler football team look a bit lost when the man, his coaching staff and players just delivered Lombardi #6 to Heinz Field this past year.

That's just my two cents. If Timmons works out, great for the Steelers, if he doesn't then back to the drawing board. Remember, Harrison is 30 years old; Timmons could just be holding down the middle until he can take Harrison's spot in 3 or 4 year's time. He'll still only be 26 or 27 years old in 4 years.

Patience is a virtue lost on many.

Pappy



Very well said Pap,..i just happen to give more credit for our recent success to Coach Lebeau, his defense and the select group of playmaking studs and the few solid role players that were already on this roster prior to Tomlin's arrival.

Tomlin is a great motivator, and great speaker,..but he has nothing to do at all with the aforementioned things. And it's my opinion that to annoint him a "great" and or flawless head coach at this time is a bit premature to say the least.(Ie: Gruden early in Tampa)

How can his ability be properly assessed until he is without Coach Lebeau,....and all of the starters outside of Woodley on the roster are his brand of mediocre "Grits" players ?

I'll assume then that you believe that Bill Cowher was successful because of his coordinators as well. Dom Capers, bad word Lebeau (twice), Whisenhunt, Erhardt all pretty good corrdinators in their own right.

I'm not anointing Tomlin the greatest coach in history (not even in Steeler history), but, he did take an 8-8 team coming off of a lackluster season in which they seemed to sleep walk through some games and made the playoffs. His team was one and done; so, he turns around and takes that team makes a few changes, adapts to injuries and rides his quarterback to a Super Bowl win. That's leadership to me; he's never made an excuse for his team; he won't allow the team to make excuses and expects any player regardless of draft position to perform as well the starter if asked to do so.

You may not be sold on Tomlin, I am, he understands how to lead veterans and rookies alike. The Steelers are in good hands for the foreseeable future. I'd be willing to bet, that save for a handful of teams (if that many), that Mike Tomlin would be a top candidate to run their team if given the opportunity to hire him.

Pappy


As usual very well said Pap. But i have never questioned Tomlin's ability to lead a team to success that already had the vast majority of the components to be successful in place.

I have never questioned his intellect or will either. I simply believe that his same will, and ego in terms of having a roster full of guys that are absolutely in awe of him and follow him and his philosophy utterly and without question supercedes the need for actual talent in his eyes. And henceforth clouds his vision in terms of what is quality personnel.

Who on the Steelers team do you believe follows Mike Tomlin blindly? If the players simply ceded to Tomlin's wishes I would submit to you that they would have no actual player leadership and be a bad football team. Quite the contrary, the veterans on the Steelers lead by example on and off the field (for the most part). The younger players are learning this and will someday themselves be the veteran leaders. It's how an organization is built and maintained, regardless of industry.

He will call it,.."looking for ordinary character guys". But it really boils down to him placing his desire to be worshiped by a group of average players because they are not good enough to have any ego themselves,.. above all else. Five more drafts like the three that we've had since he's been here,....and you can kiss success goodbye and welcome your new mistress,.....mediocrity.

The draft that can even start to be evaluated is Mike Tomlin's first draft. Timmons will be starting in his third year, Woodley is an animal, Sepulveda will be the punter for many years barring injury, Gay will compete for a starting cornerback spot, Spaeth is so-so, McBean and Stephenson are gone. Three starters and a potential 4th from one draft is pretty good.

Evaluating any other draft at this point is waste of time. See me about Sweed, Mendenhall, Mundy, Hills, Dixon and Davis after this season then we can at least begin to determine the quality of that draft.

The Steelers are young at QB, RB, CB, safety, LB, punter, WR and O-line. Harrison, Ward and the defensive line are the aging vets. Hopefully, they've begun to address the d-line with Hood and Ward with Wallace. A few cornerbacks have been brought in to replace the departed Mcfadden and give some depth to safety (maybe).

Calling this heading to mediocrity is a stretch, but, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. There is no denying that it is too early to evaluate the last two drafts and Tomnlin's first looks really good right now. Barring injury the Steelers will be competitive into the foreseeable future.



Other than that,..he's a good Coach,.....

Pappy

Slapstick
05-12-2009, 02:48 PM
These are players that were on the roster prior to Tomlin's arrival who have received contract extensions since Tomlin took over that will ensure that they remain Steelers for years to come:

Troy Polamalu
Aaron Smith
James Farrior
James Harrison
Hines Ward

Are those guys that idolize Tomlin and follow him blindly?

Really?

RuthlessBurgher
05-12-2009, 02:58 PM
These are players that were on the roster prior to Tomlin's arrival who have received contract extensions since Tomlin took over that will ensure that they remain Steelers for years to come:

Troy Polamalu
Aaron Smith
James Farrior
James Harrison
Hines Ward

Are those guys that idolize Tomlin and follow him blindly?

Really?

I recall the team giving that Roethlisberger fellow a couple of bucks as well.

Oviedo
05-12-2009, 03:23 PM
I have never questioned his intellect or will either. I simply believe that his same will, and ego in terms of having a roster full of guys that are absolutely in awe of him and follow him and his philosophy utterly and without question supercedes the need for actual talent in his eyes. And henceforth clouds his vision in terms of what is quality personnel.
.

So you're saying the Mewelde Moore pickup was just luck?

Don't you know that anything good that happens has nothing to do with Tomlin or anything he does. It is either luck or residual benefit from Cowher.

ikestops85
05-12-2009, 04:51 PM
No matter how that draft class turns out I'm not sure you can hang it on Tomlin. He was a rookie coach and I don't think he got near the amount of say that Cowher did. I'd have to say the credit or blame, depending on your point of view, for that draft class resides with Colbert. I'm sure Tomlin had more say so with this past draft than he did with the initial one though so it might be a better gauge of what's to come.

RuthlessBurgher
05-12-2009, 09:21 PM
No matter how that draft class turns out I'm not sure you can hang it on Tomlin. He was a rookie coach and I don't think he got near the amount of say that Cowher did. I'd have to say the credit or blame, depending on your point of view, for that draft class resides with Colbert. I'm sure Tomlin had more say so with this past draft than he did with the initial one though so it might be a better gauge of what's to come.

Yeah, he was hired in late January, only 3 months before that first draft. And he was busy with other things (such as assembling his coaching staff) initially moreso than focusing on the draft. Colbert and his scouts likely had much more say that first year since they were entrenched in the college scouting process long before Tomlin was even hired.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
05-13-2009, 09:39 AM
I have never questioned his intellect or will either. I simply believe that his same will, and ego in terms of having a roster full of guys that are absolutely in awe of him and follow him and his philosophy utterly and without question supercedes the need for actual talent in his eyes. And henceforth clouds his vision in terms of what is quality personnel.

What you call "follow him and his philosophy utterly and without question" is what most football people would call "buying in". And if a coach can't get his team to buy in to what he wants to do then no amount of talent in the world can overcome that.

Oviedo
05-13-2009, 10:23 AM
I have never questioned his intellect or will either. I simply believe that his same will, and ego in terms of having a roster full of guys that are absolutely in awe of him and follow him and his philosophy utterly and without question supercedes the need for actual talent in his eyes. And henceforth clouds his vision in terms of what is quality personnel.

What you call "follow him and his philosophy utterly and without question" is what most football people would call "buying in". And if a coach can't get his team to buy in to what he wants to do then no amount of talent in the world can overcome that.

:Clap :Clap :Clap

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
05-13-2009, 10:55 AM
No matter how that draft class turns out I'm not sure you can hang it on Tomlin. He was a rookie coach and I don't think he got near the amount of say that Cowher did. I'd have to say the credit or blame, depending on your point of view, for that draft class resides with Colbert. I'm sure Tomlin had more say so with this past draft than he did with the initial one though so it might be a better gauge of what's to come.

Maybe because we follow the Steelers, some people think that a draft falls under the domain of a coach. Of course it does, because that is the way it worked under Cowher, right?

However, before Cowher became the loudest voice in the war room he first:

- Had a much longer tenure than most coaches
- Won a power struggle with Donahoe
- Hand picked the current GM who was hired knowing that he fell below the coach on the food chain

Most coaches are not in that position, and third year coach Tomlin is nowhere close to that. I would figure him as more of a consultant - one of several voices heard - at this point when it comes to the draft, but these are certainly not his drafts.

Captain Lemming
05-14-2009, 11:06 AM
I have never questioned his intellect or will either. I simply believe that his same will, and ego in terms of having a roster full of guys that are absolutely in awe of him and follow him and his philosophy utterly and without question supercedes the need for actual talent in his eyes. And henceforth clouds his vision in terms of what is quality personnel.

Hmm, better to have talented players who question the coach constantly? We. know what that looks like. It is called TO.
A case can be made that the Cowboys were more talented than we are. Who has the Lombardi?


He will call it,.."looking for ordinary character guys". But it really boils down to him placing his desire to be worshiped by a group of average players because they are not good enough to have any ego themselves,.. above all else. Five more drafts like the three that we've had since he's been here,....and you can kiss success goodbye and welcome your new mistress,.....mediocrity.

No he calls it "character guys" they needn't be "ordinary".
This is nothing new.
You talk about the roster he inherited.
Which of our guys is a big talent egomaniac?
We have more free agent overachievers as core players than anybody.

Our most talented, highly regarded guys out of college are:

1. A QB who constantly credits others for his success, and humbly deferred the role of team leadership to veterans when asked if he was a leader for his first three years.
2. A safety Troy who seems incapable of an arrogant act.

It is no coincidence that we moved up to get Troy.
He is the epitome of what the Steelers want in a player, exactly what Tomlin describes when talking about "humble guys he prefers". But it is not just Tomlin, it is the Steelers as an organization.
Troy got paid. He got paid early too. The Steelers value his skills and attitude.
You imply that "Talent" and "Humble" are mutually exclusive.
Troy is the prime example of how wrong you are.

One more point about Troy.
If Tomlin were the massive ego controller you make him out to be, would he let Troy do his own independent workout?
Ben said many times that Tomlin respects players as "Men" in a way that his predecessor did not.

Before Tomlin got here we had all of "one" big ego, his name was Joey Porter. We let him walk at no loss to the team.

The team Tomlin inherited was already full of Tomlin type players because Tomlin came in with a Steeler sense of what a team should be.

I have no doubt that he got the job precisely because he articulated a "Steeler" philosophy, which resonated with the Rooneys.

To imply that Tomlins preferences will hurt the Steelers overall talent, ignores what the Steelers were already doing. How many of our current players would Tomlin avoid because of their ego? Tomlin could have very well made the same choices.

All coaches want talent, your implying otherwise is ridiculous. But most coaches ignore disruptive attitudes for the sake of raw talent.

The Steelers value talent, but recognize the value of cacheable "team 1st" type players to the success of a team.
to argue against that philosophy is to argue against our current success.

snarky
05-15-2009, 02:17 PM
How can his ability be properly assessed until he is without Coach Lebeau,....and all of the starters outside of Woodley on the roster are his brand of mediocre "Grits" players ?

I hate to raise the dead on this thread, but something just struck me about this particular comment. Is the contention here that Tomlin's ability as a HC cannot be properly assessed until after, for instance, Ben Roethlisberger's departure?

So sometime around 2016 we might have an idea of what he can do as a coach? And let's say things go well between now and then and we win another two or three lombardies. Are we still going to be waiting for Ben to depart so we know the full story on Tomlin?

That would be kinda like saying Chuck Noll never really amounted to anything as a coach because Rocky Bleier was there when Noll arrived and as soon as Bleier retired the Steelers stopped winning Super Bowls.

RuthlessBurgher
05-15-2009, 02:47 PM
How can his ability be properly assessed until he is without Coach Lebeau,....and all of the starters outside of Woodley on the roster are his brand of mediocre "Grits" players ?

I hate to raise the dead on this thread, but something just struck me about this particular comment. Is the contention here that Tomlin's ability as a HC cannot be properly assessed until after, for instance, Ben Roethlisberger's departure?

So sometime around 2016 we might have an idea of what he can do as a coach? And let's say things go well between now and then and we win another two or three lombardies. Are we still going to be waiting for Ben to depart so we know the full story on Tomlin?

That would be kinda like saying Chuck Noll never really amounted to anything as a coach because Rocky Bleier was there when Noll arrived and as soon as Bleier retired the Steelers stopped winning Super Bowls.

Phil Jackson sucks as a coach because he wasn't with Chicago when they drafted Jordan and he wasn't with L.A. when they made the draft-day trade for Kobe's right. He obviously won with Kevin Loughery's players in Chicago and with Del Harris' players in L.A. :wink: