PDA

View Full Version : Justin Tuck From The Giants says....



pfelix73
05-05-2009, 09:13 AM
He'd rank Drew Brees ahead of Ben as a QB he thinks is the best right now. The best at coming back at the end of a game, etc.

Says Ben is all that because of the Steeler D. If not for the D, he'd be.....Drew Brees?

I seriously doubt that Drew Brees would be better in OUR offense. Sounds like someone else is jealous of the Steeler way and their players. For the record, I'll stick with Ben over any of them. Score= Ben 2 SB's Drew 0.

Wonder why he didn't say Eli? He is on ESPN this morning with Mike and Mike.

:tt1

steelblood
05-05-2009, 09:22 AM
Ranking Drew Brees ahead of Ben is hardly a slap in the face. Drew Brees is incredible and has succeeded often with poor receivers (when Colston has been hurt, he has still proven successful). I actually think Brees could be effective behind our line because he is very mobile and smart. Brees is a bit more accurate than Ben and has more veteran savvy (looking guys off and reading coverages), but Ben is stronger in the pocket and a better poor weather QB.

birtikidis
05-05-2009, 09:31 AM
as a PURE qb i'd rank brees slightly ahead of ben. but as a player i'd rank them almost dead even.
but to me you can't compare the two. one is more of a prototypical pocket passer the other is a guy who can extend the play and make something happen.
both guys are great but i'd take ben

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
05-05-2009, 09:35 AM
I don't really get bothered by stuff like this. After all:

1) Justin Tuck is just a football player, and not even one who plays in the same division as either QB. Does anybody really think that he goes home Sunday night and rewinds through all of the Saints and Steelers games to see how each QB performed?

2) Drew Brees is a very good QB. Whether or not you like him over Ben, he is certainly top 5 in this league. It isn't like he is saying that Jason Campbell is a better QB.

3) Brees plays in a pass happy O inside of a dome, a play at least three road games a year in the south. Prior to that he played in San Diego. You have to go back to his college days before you can find him playing regularly outside up north. How many games did the Steelers play last year in inclement weather? Cold, rain, snow? Is it really justified to compare performances and numbers when the games are being played in such different climates? Shouldn't a guy who plays in New Jersey, Philadelphia, and Washington realize that? Or does he think that every northern division gets a token week in a place like Dallas every year?

RuthlessBurgher
05-05-2009, 09:47 AM
The Giants travel to N'Awlins this year to play Brees and the Saints, but don't have the Steelers on the schedule. You don't want to slight a player you will be playing this year in favor of a player not on your schedule.

stlrz d
05-05-2009, 10:42 AM
He'd rank Drew Brees ahead of Ben as a QB he thinks is the best right now. The best at coming back at the end of a game, etc.

Says Ben is all that because of the Steeler D. If not for the D, he'd be.....Drew Brees?

I seriously doubt that Drew Brees would be better in OUR offense. Sounds like someone else is jealous of the Steeler way and their players. For the record, I'll stick with Ben over any of them. Score= Ben 2 SB's Drew 0.

Wonder why he didn't say Eli? He is on ESPN this morning with Mike and Mike.

:tt1

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

grotonsteel
05-05-2009, 10:52 AM
Maybe he should check Drew Brees Away Games Record..or passer rating in Away Games....

flippy
05-05-2009, 10:52 AM
It was his pick as QB under 30 that you'd take to start a team. They then asked him where he'd put Ben and he said he'd put Ben second cause of all he accomplished.

There was no slight to Ben at all.

Then later they asked Dilfer the same question and he excluded Brees who's 30 and his guy was Philip Rivers because of his leadership.

Let em talk about whoever they want as long as my guy gets to keep winning SBs.

stlrz d
05-05-2009, 10:53 AM
Agree Flippy, but I still don't know why you wouldn't start a team with a 27 year old QB who already has 2 rings and just finds a way to win games...period.

MaxAMillion
05-05-2009, 11:04 AM
Maybe Tuck genuinely believes Brees is better. I don't think that makes him jealous or a hater. Sometimes people can have a difference of opinion.

pfelix73
05-05-2009, 11:19 AM
True.. I just think it's time Ben starts to get the recognition he deserves. Maybe he is, but sometimes watching the national media, I don't see it.

BradshawsHairdresser
05-05-2009, 12:29 PM
Who cares about how Justin Suck ranks QBs?

steelers43
05-05-2009, 12:39 PM
Who really cares? So much of Ben's success is directly related to the Steelers team and so much of the teams success is due to what Ben adds to the team.

I don't know of anyone with any amount of credibility that would argue Ben is better than Brees. Brees is a better QB, in almost every aspect of being a QB. That's hard to argue or even try to argue.

Fundamentals, accuracy, intelligence, etc. all in Brees favor. Ben's bigger and a better athlete. He's our QB and I wouldn't change that for Brees.

As for the SB arguement, we still haven't beat Tom Brady and the Pats on a run to the SB, something I'd like to see Ben do before it's over.

Also, Brees, if here since 2004, would likely have just as many SB's, if not more. I could easily see Brees being better in the 2004 playoffs and not wrecking the 2006 season.

That said, I'll keep Ben. I just hope he starts to eventually play smarter and stays healthier. If he can gain the smarts Brees has about the game, presnap and after, he'd be downright awesome. Heck, if he gained 50% of those smarts, he'd be awesome and much harder to defend.

flippy
05-05-2009, 12:41 PM
Agree Flippy, but I still don't know why you wouldn't start a team with a 27 year old QB who already has 2 rings and just finds a way to win games...period.

I really don't want to see Ben get recognition until he's done.
Here's a question for Mike.

Who's more important to the Steelers - Mike Tomlin or Ben Roethlisberger.
That will keep driving him.

I have a feeling Tomlin is going to get 5 SBs during his career to surpass Noll.

That means Ben will have 6.

By that time, we'll be sick of hearing people talk about Ben.

steelers43
05-05-2009, 12:44 PM
True.. I just think it's time Ben starts to get the recognition he deserves. Maybe he is, but sometimes watching the national media, I don't see it.

Most credible analysts rank him in the top 8, which is pretty accurate. 4-8 can be debated but the top 3 are pretty clear.

RuthlessBurgher
05-05-2009, 01:11 PM
Comparing Brees and Ben is comparing the stats guy vs. the clutch guy.

There are legit reasons for choosing either side.

Much like the old Marino vs. Elway debate.

Why am I typing this in a Flippy-like single-sentence, double-spaced manner? :P

Oviedo
05-05-2009, 01:16 PM
Comparing Brees and Ben is comparing the stats guy vs. the clutch guy.

There are legit reasons for choosing either side.

Much like the old Marino vs. Elway debate.

Why am I typing this in a Flippy-like single-sentence, double-spaced manner? :P


Much like the old Marino vs. Elway debate A most excellent analogy!!!!!!

I'll take Elway any day.

feelthesteel
05-05-2009, 01:18 PM
Nobody gives Ben the credit he deserves thats fine
he'll justreat keep winning superbowls.
I think Bradshaw went through the same thing.

I live in New Jersey and i dont like the Giants Jets and their fans.

If you only knew the stuff i hear from them . Eli 's better yadda yadda .

RuthlessBurgher
05-05-2009, 01:18 PM
Comparing Brees and Ben is comparing the stats guy vs. the clutch guy.

There are legit reasons for choosing either side.

Much like the old Marino vs. Elway debate.

Why am I typing this in a Flippy-like single-sentence, double-spaced manner? :P


Much like the old Marino vs. Elway debate A most excellent analogy!!!!!!

I'll take Elway any day.

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/music/billandted460.jpg

flippy
05-05-2009, 01:19 PM
True.. I just think it's time Ben starts to get the recognition he deserves. Maybe he is, but sometimes watching the national media, I don't see it.

Most credible analysts rank him in the top 8, which is pretty accurate. 4-8 can be debated but the top 3 are pretty clear.

I'm not sure top 3 are clear.

Assuming your top 2 are Brady/Manning like everyone else:

What could Brady do without knowing the defenses he was facing and after spygate without Moss/Welker?

Manning chokes a lot? How does that justify him in the top 3?

And then who's #3? You could make arguments for any of the following: Ben, Rivers, Kurt Warner, Brees, and maybe even Cutler.

steelers43
05-05-2009, 01:19 PM
Comparing Brees and Ben is comparing the stats guy vs. the clutch guy.

There are legit reasons for choosing either side.

Much like the old Marino vs. Elway debate.

Why am I typing this in a Flippy-like single-sentence, double-spaced manner? :P


Much like the old Marino vs. Elway debate A most excellent analogy!!!!!!

I'll take Elway any day.

Yeah, great analogy. Elway couldn't win anything until he got a run game and defense.

The best way to judge them is to flip their teams. Ben wouldn't win in New Orleans but Brees could certainly win in Pittsburgh.

flippy
05-05-2009, 01:22 PM
Comparing Brees and Ben is comparing the stats guy vs. the clutch guy.

There are legit reasons for choosing either side.

Much like the old Marino vs. Elway debate.

Why am I typing this in a Flippy-like single-sentence, double-spaced manner? :P

Cause you gotta pause between points so they stick.

Not sure how else to slow down the reader ;)

steelers43
05-05-2009, 01:22 PM
True.. I just think it's time Ben starts to get the recognition he deserves. Maybe he is, but sometimes watching the national media, I don't see it.

Most credible analysts rank him in the top 8, which is pretty accurate. 4-8 can be debated but the top 3 are pretty clear.

I'm not sure top 3 are clear.

Assuming your top 2 are Brady/Manning like everyone else:

What could Brady do without knowing the defenses he was facing and after spygate without Moss/Welker?

Manning chokes a lot? How does that justify him in the top 3?

And then who's #3? You could make arguments for any of the following: Ben, Rivers, Kurt Warner, Brees, and maybe even Cutler.


Anyone with crediblity knows the top 3 QB's in the league right now are Peyton, Brady and Brees.

RuthlessBurgher
05-05-2009, 01:26 PM
Comparing Brees and Ben is comparing the stats guy vs. the clutch guy.

There are legit reasons for choosing either side.

Much like the old Marino vs. Elway debate.

Why am I typing this in a Flippy-like single-sentence, double-spaced manner? :P


Much like the old Marino vs. Elway debate A most excellent analogy!!!!!!

I'll take Elway any day.

Yeah, great analogy. Elway couldn't win anything until he got a run game and defense.

The best way to judge them is to flip their teams. Ben wouldn't win in New Orleans but Brees could certainly win in Pittsburgh.

Ben would do just fine in New Orleans with a better o-line in front of him and Marques Colston, Lance Moore, Reggie Bush, and Jeremy Shockey to throw to. Could the 6'0" 209 lb Brees hold up to the same pounding that the 6'5" 241 lb Roethlisberger takes behind the Steeler o-line?

flippy
05-05-2009, 01:26 PM
True.. I just think it's time Ben starts to get the recognition he deserves. Maybe he is, but sometimes watching the national media, I don't see it.

Most credible analysts rank him in the top 8, which is pretty accurate. 4-8 can be debated but the top 3 are pretty clear.

I'm not sure top 3 are clear.

Assuming your top 2 are Brady/Manning like everyone else:

What could Brady do without knowing the defenses he was facing and after spygate without Moss/Welker?

Manning chokes a lot? How does that justify him in the top 3?

And then who's #3? You could make arguments for any of the following: Ben, Rivers, Kurt Warner, Brees, and maybe even Cutler.


Anyone with crediblity knows the top 3 QB's in the league right now are Peyton, Brady and Brees.

Brees can't get his team in the playoffs.

And when he does, he's 1-2.

Aren't QBs mainly judged by winning?

And people used to think Daunte Culpepper was a good QB until Moss left.

steelers43
05-05-2009, 01:31 PM
Comparing Brees and Ben is comparing the stats guy vs. the clutch guy.

There are legit reasons for choosing either side.

Much like the old Marino vs. Elway debate.

Why am I typing this in a Flippy-like single-sentence, double-spaced manner? :P


Much like the old Marino vs. Elway debate A most excellent analogy!!!!!!

I'll take Elway any day.

Yeah, great analogy. Elway couldn't win anything until he got a run game and defense.

The best way to judge them is to flip their teams. Ben wouldn't win in New Orleans but Brees could certainly win in Pittsburgh.

Ben would do just fine in New Orleans with a better o-line in front of him and Marques Colston, Lance Moore, Reggie Bush, and Jeremy Shockey to throw to. Could the 6'0" 209 lb Brees hold up to the same pounding that the 6'5" 241 lb Roethlisberger takes behind the Steeler o-line?
Brees wouldn't take sacks like Ben. He'd read pre-snap and make adjustments, thus keeping the defense on their heels, not knowing what is coming. Ben does very little of this.

And I highly doubt Ben would win in NO with no defense.

steelers43
05-05-2009, 01:32 PM
True.. I just think it's time Ben starts to get the recognition he deserves. Maybe he is, but sometimes watching the national media, I don't see it.

Most credible analysts rank him in the top 8, which is pretty accurate. 4-8 can be debated but the top 3 are pretty clear.

I'm not sure top 3 are clear.

Assuming your top 2 are Brady/Manning like everyone else:

What could Brady do without knowing the defenses he was facing and after spygate without Moss/Welker?

Manning chokes a lot? How does that justify him in the top 3?

And then who's #3? You could make arguments for any of the following: Ben, Rivers, Kurt Warner, Brees, and maybe even Cutler.


Anyone with crediblity knows the top 3 QB's in the league right now are Peyton, Brady and Brees.

Brees can't get his team in the playoffs.

And when he does, he's 1-2.

Aren't QBs mainly judged by winning?

And people used to think Daunte Culpepper was a good QB until Moss left.

Brees consistently carries his team. He's clearly a top 3 QB.

AngryAsian
05-05-2009, 01:45 PM
It was his pick as QB under 30 that you'd take to start a team. They then asked him where he'd put Ben and he said he'd put Ben second cause of all he accomplished.

There was no slight to Ben at all.

Then later they asked Dilfer the same question and he excluded Brees who's 30 and his guy was Philip Rivers because of his leadership.

Let em talk about whoever they want as long as my guy gets to keep winning SBs.

Logic in excess.

feltdizz
05-05-2009, 02:16 PM
I don't get the come from behind win argument. Sure seems like Brees puts up stats but finds ways to still lose a game. I think it's like the Palmer vs Ben argument when Palmer was hot. Palmer had the stats but couldn't win the close games...

Who cares though... it's Tuck.

RuthlessBurgher
05-05-2009, 02:23 PM
Brees consistently carries his team. He's clearly a top 3 QB.

Sure he carries his team. To an average record, year after year. He didn't start as a rookie in San Diego, but since he was named starter, the Chargers record was 8-8, 4-12, 12-4, and 9-7. Since moving to New Orleans, the Saints have been 10-6, 7-9, and 8-8. That adds up to 58-54. Impressive. Not to mention his amazing 2 playoff appearances in an 8 year career and a sterling 1-2 record in the post-season. Ben has the same number of playoff losses, but 9 more wins. The Steelers record since Ben arrived has been 56-24. It is not all because of a better defense in Pittsburgh. In San Diego, Brees has some of the most talented teams in the league with guys like Tomlinson and Gates on offense and Merriman and Jamal Williams on defense. On the basis of stats, Brees has been nothing short of remarkable. But I want a QB to be a winner.

steelers43
05-05-2009, 02:41 PM
Brees consistently carries his team. He's clearly a top 3 QB.

Sure he carries his team. To an average record, year after year. He didn't start as a rookie in San Diego, but since he was named starter, the Chargers record was 8-8, 4-12, 12-4, and 9-7. Since moving to New Orleans, the Saints have been 10-6, 7-9, and 8-8. That adds up to 58-54. Impressive. Not to mention his amazing 2 playoff appearances in an 8 year career and a sterling 1-2 record in the post-season. Ben has the same number of playoff losses, but 9 more wins. The Steelers record since Ben arrived has been 56-24. It is not all because of a better defense in Pittsburgh. In San Diego, Brees has some of the most talented teams in the league with guys like Tomlinson and Gates on offense and Merriman and Jamal Williams on defense. On the basis of stats, Brees has been nothing short of remarkable. But I want a QB to be a winner.

Ben also plays on a much better team.

If we had Brees since 04, we may be looking at 3-4 trophies instead of two. It's hard to tell. Ben's skills fit this team but Brees skills are above Ben's at this moment. He just plays on a worse team. He has to win almost every game in a shootout. They have no defense. You think Ben could win games consistently if other teams put up big numbers on our defense?

flippy
05-05-2009, 02:48 PM
Anyone with crediblity knows the top 3 QB's in the league right now are Peyton, Brady and Brees.

Brees consistently carries his team. He's clearly a top 3 QB.

I'm not buying it's clear.

Philip Rivers took over for Brees and took the Chargers to 3 straight playoff appearances.

Brees made the playoffs 2 of his 7 seasons as a starter.

Rivers is 3 for 3.

Rivers has throw for more yards and more TDs that Brees ever did in SD.

Why is Rivers having more success with essentially the same team as Bress had?

Then we can look at Big Ben versus Brees.

Ben averages <400 pass attempts per season over his career.

Brees has averaged more than 600 pass attempts per season since he's gone to NO (where he's put up monster passing yardage numbers).

I bet a lot of QBs could put up Brees like numbers if they got as many chances to throw and play in a dome in perfect conditions.

Bottom line, I'll take Brees in my fantasy league.

I'll take Ben on my real team.

And you can make a pretty strong argument that Rivers is better than Brees.

QBs are supposed to win.

Brees is only 55-52 in his career (1-2 in the playoffs).

Ben is 51-21 (8-2 in the playoffs)

Bottom line - Drew Brees throws a lot and is not a winner.

flippy
05-05-2009, 02:51 PM
You think Ben could win games consistently if other teams put up big numbers on our defense?

Yes, Ben does what he has to do to win.

steelers43
05-05-2009, 02:54 PM
You think Ben could win games consistently if other teams put up big numbers on our defense?

Yes, Ben does what he has to do to win.

His mechanics and hesitations would not let him win in a more pass happy offense. It would doom him, if he didn't smarten up, to more injuries and losses.

He's great for our team but he's not great on any team. Brees has to do much more for his team just to be in position to win.

True Fan
05-05-2009, 03:29 PM
You think Ben could win games consistently if other teams put up big numbers on our defense?

Yes, Ben does what he has to do to win.

His mechanics and hesitations would not let him win in a more pass happy offense. It would doom him, if he didn't smarten up, to more injuries and losses.

He's great for our team but he's not great on any team. Brees has to do much more for his team just to be in position to win.



cut to the chase 43 and just admit you dont like ben, it's alright

RuthlessBurgher
05-05-2009, 03:37 PM
Bottom line, I'll take Brees in my fantasy league.

I'll take Ben on my real team.

That about sums it up right there.

No disrespect to Mr. Brees, who I think is top 5 rather than top 3.

steelers43
05-05-2009, 03:38 PM
You think Ben could win games consistently if other teams put up big numbers on our defense?

Yes, Ben does what he has to do to win.

His mechanics and hesitations would not let him win in a more pass happy offense. It would doom him, if he didn't smarten up, to more injuries and losses.

He's great for our team but he's not great on any team. Brees has to do much more for his team just to be in position to win.



cut to the chase 43 and just admit you dont like ben, it's alright
Not sure why I would do that seeing it isn't remotely true. Some of you simpletons may think pointing out what he can improve on or what he do not do now as hatred but it's simply a shallow minded person that would think that.... or a child.

Crash
05-05-2009, 04:24 PM
Tuck is a moron. What has Drew Brees EVER won as an NFL QB?

He choked in San Diego and he's won nothing as a Saint.

Throw 5 yard passes to Reggie Bush and watch him run. Yay. Throw to LT in the flat and watch him run, terrific.

I'll take Ben, and the hardware he has won, despite the CONSTANT changes in supporting cast around him.

steelers43
05-05-2009, 04:58 PM
Tuck is a moron. What has Drew Brees EVER won as an NFL QB?

He choked in San Diego and he's won nothing as a Saint.

Throw 5 yard passes to Reggie Bush and watch him run. Yay. Throw to LT in the flat and watch him run, terrific.

I'll take Ben, and the hardware he has won, despite the CONSTANT changes in supporting cast around him.

If winning SB's is your only criteria and the strength of the team and other QB traits don't matter, it's hard to argue Ben is better.

If you judge just on talents, fundamentals, QB discipline, etc. the thought process(for most) changes.

stlrz d
05-05-2009, 05:14 PM
Dayum...one poster in this thread is taking a beating!

Crash
05-05-2009, 06:05 PM
Dayum...one poster in this thread is taking a beating!

It's comical. As if Brees didn't have any supporting cast around him.

LT must suck.

Gates must suck.

Bush must suck.

They all suck.

Took Brees 635 passes to throw for 34 TD's in 2008.

Ben had a 32 TD pass season in 2007, and needed a mere 404.

Mel Blount's G
05-05-2009, 06:20 PM
Brees consistently carries his team. He's clearly a top 3 QB.

Sure he carries his team. To an average record, year after year. He didn't start as a rookie in San Diego, but since he was named starter, the Chargers record was 8-8, 4-12, 12-4, and 9-7. Since moving to New Orleans, the Saints have been 10-6, 7-9, and 8-8. That adds up to 58-54. Impressive. Not to mention his amazing 2 playoff appearances in an 8 year career and a sterling 1-2 record in the post-season. Ben has the same number of playoff losses, but 9 more wins. The Steelers record since Ben arrived has been 56-24. It is not all because of a better defense in Pittsburgh. In San Diego, Brees has some of the most talented teams in the league with guys like Tomlinson and Gates on offense and Merriman and Jamal Williams on defense. On the basis of stats, Brees has been nothing short of remarkable. But I want a QB to be a winner.

Ben also plays on a much better team.

If we had Brees since 04, we may be looking at 3-4 trophies instead of two.
Or none instead of 2....

Crash
05-05-2009, 06:29 PM
Brees consistently carries his team. He's clearly a top 3 QB.

Sure he carries his team. To an average record, year after year. He didn't start as a rookie in San Diego, but since he was named starter, the Chargers record was 8-8, 4-12, 12-4, and 9-7. Since moving to New Orleans, the Saints have been 10-6, 7-9, and 8-8. That adds up to 58-54. Impressive. Not to mention his amazing 2 playoff appearances in an 8 year career and a sterling 1-2 record in the post-season. Ben has the same number of playoff losses, but 9 more wins. The Steelers record since Ben arrived has been 56-24. It is not all because of a better defense in Pittsburgh. In San Diego, Brees has some of the most talented teams in the league with guys like Tomlinson and Gates on offense and Merriman and Jamal Williams on defense. On the basis of stats, Brees has been nothing short of remarkable. But I want a QB to be a winner.

Ben also plays on a much better team.

If we had Brees since 04, we may be looking at 3-4 trophies instead of two.
Or none instead of 2....

Yeah Drew Brees, who the Chargers thought so highly of that they drafted Rivers would just waltz into Pittsburgh and win 4 Lombardi's in the last five years.

But hey, Drew did carry the Saints to last place in 2008.

While Ben took his team 88 yards to win ring #2.

Ben's going to Canton.

Brees gets there when he buys his ticket.

Mel Blount's G
05-05-2009, 07:10 PM
Anyone with crediblity...

Some of you simpletons..

...it's simply a shallow minded person that would think that....or a child.
43: I don't mind at all that you have different opinions, some of which I find...well...interesting...but these above comments illustrate what I find odd: That you imply that you have a greater football wisdom compared to everyone else and are somehow an elite and distinguished football message board guru. That you have a loftier message board status then everyone else, that your knowledge of the game and all of it's intricate details is unrivalled; you are a man among boys here at the Planet. I have nothing against you personally, and often appreciate your left-fieldish angles on many topics, but I thought I'd mention this about your apparent superior perception of yourself. I would suggest that it just comes off as kinda overbearing and silly and that you'd be taken more seriously if you dropped the "you simpletons" attitude. Again, nothing personal but wasn't sure if you were aware of this or not (or even cared...)

Just my :2c

Starlifter
05-05-2009, 08:43 PM
ranking is just an interesting way to pass time and is usually taken far too seriously by the fans of teams that never win championships. Where Ben ranks against Brees, Manning etc can be a fun debate but at least we have rings to discuss. all they have in cleveland/cinci is speculation.......

True Fan
05-05-2009, 08:44 PM
Anyone with crediblity...

Some of you simpletons..

...it's simply a shallow minded person that would think that....or a child.
43: I don't mind at all that you have different opinions, some of which I find...well...interesting...but these above comments illustrate what I find odd: That you imply that you have a greater football wisdom compared to everyone else and are somehow an elite and distinguished football message board guru. That you have a loftier message board status then everyone else, that your knowledge of the game and all of it's intricate details is unrivalled; you are a man among boys here at the Planet. I have nothing against you personally, and often appreciate your left-fieldish angles on many topics, but I thought I'd mention this about your apparent superior perception of yourself. I would suggest that it just comes off as kinda overbearing and silly and that you'd be taken more seriously if you dropped the "you simpletons" attitude. Again, nothing personal but wasn't sure if you were aware of this or not (or even cared...)

Just my :2c

well said. he is quite humorous to have on a board tho, he is loads of fun to laugh at.

birtikidis
05-05-2009, 09:02 PM
Comparing Brees and Ben is comparing the stats guy vs. the clutch guy.

There are legit reasons for choosing either side.

Much like the old Marino vs. Elway debate.

Why am I typing this in a Flippy-like single-sentence, double-spaced manner? :P


Much like the old Marino vs. Elway debate A most excellent analogy!!!!!!

I'll take Elway any day.

Yeah, great analogy. Elway couldn't win anything until he got a run game and defense.

The best way to judge them is to flip their teams. Ben wouldn't win in New Orleans but Brees could certainly win in Pittsburgh.

Ben would do just fine in New Orleans with a better o-line in front of him and Marques Colston, Lance Moore, Reggie Bush, and Jeremy Shockey to throw to. Could the 6'0" 209 lb Brees hold up to the same pounding that the 6'5" 241 lb Roethlisberger takes behind the Steeler o-line?
Brees wouldn't take sacks like Ben. He'd read pre-snap and make adjustments, thus keeping the defense on their heels, not knowing what is coming. Ben does very little of this.

And I highly doubt Ben would win in NO with no defense.
I doubt God could win a SB in NO with their defense.

steelers43
05-05-2009, 09:16 PM
Anyone with crediblity...

Some of you simpletons..

...it's simply a shallow minded person that would think that....or a child.
43: I don't mind at all that you have different opinions, some of which I find...well...interesting...but these above comments illustrate what I find odd: That you imply that you have a greater football wisdom compared to everyone else and are somehow an elite and distinguished football message board guru. That you have a loftier message board status then everyone else, that your knowledge of the game and all of it's intricate details is unrivalled; you are a man among boys here at the Planet. I have nothing against you personally, and often appreciate your left-fieldish angles on many topics, but I thought I'd mention this about your apparent superior perception of yourself. I would suggest that it just comes off as kinda overbearing and silly and that you'd be taken more seriously if you dropped the "you simpletons" attitude. Again, nothing personal but wasn't sure if you were aware of this or not (or even cared...)

Just my :2c

Taken from context, it does look bad. I had hoped this board would be different but a few have already started crap so I dish it back. The one's with the comments about me know what they get back. How come you don't go around breaking their quotes down?

PS, I don't care what you think of my opinion. I post my opinion because I liked the discussion. I actually started having hopes for this board but the comments and crap have already started. I mention something about a player and a few chirp in I must be high, on dope, etc. Well, it's a bit old and tiresome but whatever, this isn't the only board around.

Oh, and I don't make myself out to be anything. It's pretty much a fact a crowd follows me. How's Stillernation.com since Gibby banned me?

birtikidis
05-05-2009, 09:22 PM
you must be high
















































:lol:

steelers43
05-05-2009, 09:28 PM
It's just funny to me. I joined the site less than a month ago. Liked the design. Asian, contact me if you want another domain to work on?

Less than a month ago this board has less than 500 members. It's had 77 new members register since I joined but I'm the bad guy?

Not to worry, a new board is coming eventually but it will be a great one or I won't open it.

True Fan
05-05-2009, 09:29 PM
Anyone with crediblity...

Some of you simpletons..

...it's simply a shallow minded person that would think that....or a child.
43: I don't mind at all that you have different opinions, some of which I find...well...interesting...but these above comments illustrate what I find odd: That you imply that you have a greater football wisdom compared to everyone else and are somehow an elite and distinguished football message board guru. That you have a loftier message board status then everyone else, that your knowledge of the game and all of it's intricate details is unrivalled; you are a man among boys here at the Planet. I have nothing against you personally, and often appreciate your left-fieldish angles on many topics, but I thought I'd mention this about your apparent superior perception of yourself. I would suggest that it just comes off as kinda overbearing and silly and that you'd be taken more seriously if you dropped the "you simpletons" attitude. Again, nothing personal but wasn't sure if you were aware of this or not (or even cared...)

Just my :2c

Taken from context, it does look bad. I had hoped this board would be different but a few have already started crap so I dish it back. The one's with the comments about me know what they get back. How come you don't go around breaking their quotes down?

PS, I don't care what you think of my opinion. I post my opinion because I liked the discussion. I actually started having hopes for this board but the comments and crap have already started. I mention something about a player and a few chirp in I must be high, on dope, etc. Well, it's a bit old and tiresome but whatever, this isn't the only board around.

Oh, and I don't make myself out to be anything. It's pretty much a fact a crowd follows me. How's Stillernation.com since Gibby banned me?


yup, just like you said you would never go to that new site.......... :roll:

steelers43
05-05-2009, 09:32 PM
yup, just like you said you would never go to that new site.......... :roll:

What?

papillon
05-05-2009, 10:10 PM
Brees consistently carries his team. He's clearly a top 3 QB.

Sure he carries his team. To an average record, year after year. He didn't start as a rookie in San Diego, but since he was named starter, the Chargers record was 8-8, 4-12, 12-4, and 9-7. Since moving to New Orleans, the Saints have been 10-6, 7-9, and 8-8. That adds up to 58-54. Impressive. Not to mention his amazing 2 playoff appearances in an 8 year career and a sterling 1-2 record in the post-season. Ben has the same number of playoff losses, but 9 more wins. The Steelers record since Ben arrived has been 56-24. It is not all because of a better defense in Pittsburgh. In San Diego, Brees has some of the most talented teams in the league with guys like Tomlinson and Gates on offense and Merriman and Jamal Williams on defense. On the basis of stats, Brees has been nothing short of remarkable. But I want a QB to be a winner.

Ben also plays on a much better team.

If we had Brees since 04, we may be looking at 3-4 trophies instead of two. It's hard to tell. Ben's skills fit this team but Brees skills are above Ben's at this moment. He just plays on a worse team. He has to win almost every game in a shootout. They have no defense. You think Ben could win games consistently if other teams put up big numbers on our defense?

It's not hard to tell if we would have won more Lombardis with Brees than we do with Ben; it's impossible to tell. It's only speculation and subjective opinion to make that statement. What we do know is that Ben is 51 and 21 and owns 2 Super Bowl rings and that Brees is about a .500 quarterback with no Super Bowl rings. You can debate the reasons from noon til night, but, the facts are the facts.

The Steelers hadn't been to the Super Bowl in 9 years until Ben was drafted, the Steelers have been there twice now and won both with Ben. Any great quarterback had a great team around him and no other sport in the world is as much a team sport as football. The offense relies on the defense and vice versa.

Montana, Young, McMahon, Elway, Manning (both), Griese, etc all were great quarterbacks on great teams. Ben Roethlisberger is not the only quarterback to have won Super Bowls with a great team around him. Dan Marino is a perfect example of a great quarterback not having a great team and not being able to win the big games. Ben would be no different without a great team around him; but, I will say this, I like the Steelers chances with a lesser team and Ben than I do any other quarterback in the league.

Ben is an unorthodox quarterback, his mechanics are spotty, he may or may not read defenses well (there's no way to tell without sitting in a film room for hours at a time and evaluating a play over and over), he may hold it too long, he may throw a subpar deep ball and yet, he wins games and makes plays in big moments. I'll take Ben's style of play over the perfect mechanic, throw it away at the first sign of trouble, big armed, quarterback that fits a mold, but, doesn't win as many games any day of the week.

Pappy

Mel Blount's G
05-05-2009, 10:16 PM
43: I don't go to stillernation too often and have no idea who "gibby" is or who this "crowd" is that allegedly follows you around. I've never made personal attacks on you but only found that your posts often came across as condescending, as though you think you know more about Steeler football then everyone else. That's what I found somewhat aggravating, not your opinions or anything about you or your personal lifestyle. So I tried as politely as I could to point that out to you. Sorry to hear that you've had (what sounds like) ongoing issues on different message boards. I certainly have no intention of starting, continuing or participating in any kind of personal flame war and I apologize if you felt that was my intention.

steelers43
05-05-2009, 10:36 PM
43: I don't go to stillernation too often and have no idea who "gibby" is or who this "crowd" is that allegedly follows you around. I've never made personal attacks on you but only found that your posts often came across as condescending, as though you think you know more about Steeler football then everyone else. That's what I found somewhat aggravating, not your opinions or anything about you or your personal lifestyle. So I tried as politely as I could to point that out to you. Sorry to hear that you've had (what sounds like) ongoing issues on different message boards. I certainly have no intention of starting, continuing or participating in any kind of personal flame war and I apologize if you felt that was my intention.

Well, do some more research to inform yourself before posting then.

Here's a little of what some of the "simpletons" give me when I post an opinion that Hartwig is nothing but average and cutting a young promising player to keep him would be not smart imo.


Let the record reflect that no one is calling Hartwig a super hero.

All they are saying is that a smart FO doesn't cut a guy when there is no proven back up on the roster to take his place.

A person would have to be stupid or stoned (or both) to do such a thing.

You see why now or do you need more examples. How dare I question the almighty Hartwig on this board I guess? You didn't complain about this post did you?

steelers43
05-05-2009, 10:38 PM
Brees consistently carries his team. He's clearly a top 3 QB.

Sure he carries his team. To an average record, year after year. He didn't start as a rookie in San Diego, but since he was named starter, the Chargers record was 8-8, 4-12, 12-4, and 9-7. Since moving to New Orleans, the Saints have been 10-6, 7-9, and 8-8. That adds up to 58-54. Impressive. Not to mention his amazing 2 playoff appearances in an 8 year career and a sterling 1-2 record in the post-season. Ben has the same number of playoff losses, but 9 more wins. The Steelers record since Ben arrived has been 56-24. It is not all because of a better defense in Pittsburgh. In San Diego, Brees has some of the most talented teams in the league with guys like Tomlinson and Gates on offense and Merriman and Jamal Williams on defense. On the basis of stats, Brees has been nothing short of remarkable. But I want a QB to be a winner.

Ben also plays on a much better team.

If we had Brees since 04, we may be looking at 3-4 trophies instead of two. It's hard to tell. Ben's skills fit this team but Brees skills are above Ben's at this moment. He just plays on a worse team. He has to win almost every game in a shootout. They have no defense. You think Ben could win games consistently if other teams put up big numbers on our defense?

It's not hard to tell if we would have won more Lombardis with Brees than we do with Ben; it's impossible to tell. It's only speculation and subjective opinion to make that statement. What we do know is that Ben is 51 and 21 and owns 2 Super Bowl rings and that Brees is about a .500 quarterback with no Super Bowl rings. You can debate the reasons from noon til night, but, the facts are the facts.

The Steelers hadn't been to the Super Bowl in 9 years until Ben was drafted, the Steelers have been there twice now and won both with Ben. Any great quarterback had a great team around him and no other sport in the world is as much a team sport as football. The offense relies on the defense and vice versa.

Montana, Young, McMahon, Elway, Manning (both), Griese, etc all were great quarterbacks on great teams. Ben Roethlisberger is not the only quarterback to have won Super Bowls with a great team around him. Dan Marino is a perfect example of a great quarterback not having a great team and not being able to win the big games. Ben would be no different without a great team around him; but, I will say this, I like the Steelers chances with a lesser team and Ben than I do any other quarterback in the league.

Ben is an unorthodox quarterback, his mechanics are spotty, he may or may not read defenses well (there's no way to tell without sitting in a film room for hours at a time and evaluating a play over and over), he may hold it too long, he may throw a subpar deep ball and yet, he wins games and makes plays in big moments. I'll take Ben's style of play over the perfect mechanic, throw it away at the first sign of trouble, big armed, quarterback that fits a mold, but, doesn't win as many games any day of the week.

Pappy

I don't disagree that Ben is a winner but I thought the question was about quarterbacking? IMO Brees is a more developed and more fundamental QB, quicker thinker and knows defenses much better. I know this isn't the board to say that so we'll leave it at that.

Flasteel
05-05-2009, 11:13 PM
It's just funny to me. I joined the site less than a month ago. Liked the design. Asian, contact me if you want another domain to work on?

Less than a month ago this board has less than 500 members. It's had 77 new members register since I joined but I'm the bad guy?

Not to worry, a new board is coming eventually but it will be a great one or I won't open it.


Ho-ly ****. Do you actually believe this 43? Do you honestly think of yourself as some kind of pied piper of the Steeler Nation where the Black-n-Gold throngs follow you around, hoping for pearls of wisdom to trickle from your keyboard? :lol:

Dude you need help. NPD is no laughing matter.

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/narc ... y-disorder (http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/narcissistic-personality-disorder)

Slapstick
05-05-2009, 11:14 PM
I don't disagree that Ben is a winner but I thought the question was about quarterbacking? IMO Brees is a more developed and more fundamental QB, quicker thinker and knows defenses much better. I know this isn't the board to say that so we'll leave it at that.

What good is quarterbacking if you don't win games?

Mel Blount's G
05-05-2009, 11:14 PM
43: I don't go to stillernation too often and have no idea who "gibby" is or who this "crowd" is that allegedly follows you around. I've never made personal attacks on you but only found that your posts often came across as condescending, as though you think you know more about Steeler football then everyone else. That's what I found somewhat aggravating, not your opinions or anything about you or your personal lifestyle. So I tried as politely as I could to point that out to you. Sorry to hear that you've had (what sounds like) ongoing issues on different message boards. I certainly have no intention of starting, continuing or participating in any kind of personal flame war and I apologize if you felt that was my intention.
Well, do some more research to inform yourself before posting then.
Sorry sir but I will not "research" a message board to "inform" myself of members' irrelevant drama histories. My above posting has little to nothing to do with anything from your past.

Here's a little of what some of the "simpletons" give me when I post an opinion that Hartwig is nothing but average and cutting a young promising player to keep him would be not smart imo.

Let the record reflect that no one is calling Hartwig a super hero.

All they are saying is that a smart FO doesn't cut a guy when there is no proven back up on the roster to take his place.

A person would have to be stupid or stoned (or both) to do such a thing.

You see why now or do you need more examples.
Actually I could use more examples....

You didn't complain about this post did you?
Whatever I may feel/think about those above insults against you has no bearing on my above post.


I don't think you're getting my drift....

steelers43
05-05-2009, 11:18 PM
It's just funny to me. I joined the site less than a month ago. Liked the design. Asian, contact me if you want another domain to work on?

Less than a month ago this board has less than 500 members. It's had 77 new members register since I joined but I'm the bad guy?

Not to worry, a new board is coming eventually but it will be a great one or I won't open it.


Ho-ly ****. Do you actually believe this 43? Do you honestly think of yourself as some kind of pied piper of the Steeler Nation where the Black-n-Gold throngs follow you around, hoping for pearls of wisdom to trickle from your keyboard? :lol:

Dude you need help. NPD is no laughing matter.

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/narc ... y-disorder (http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/narcissistic-personality-disorder)

I don't think of myself as anything but a Steelers fan.

What I posted is fact. The board, since my arrival has gained almost 20% more members. Perhaps it's a coincedance.

steelers43
05-05-2009, 11:19 PM
I don't think you're getting my drift....

Your drift/agenda is clear. Other posters can call me stupid or a dope or high and you have no issues but if I reply to them, call them simpletons, you have an issue with that. Yep, it's perfectly clear. Might I suggest you ignore my posts instead of continuing this?

steelers43
05-05-2009, 11:27 PM
Further evidence needed?

Oh, you erased the post FLA? Why, would you have been reprimanded by board manner patrol?

papillon
05-05-2009, 11:28 PM
Brees consistently carries his team. He's clearly a top 3 QB.

Sure he carries his team. To an average record, year after year. He didn't start as a rookie in San Diego, but since he was named starter, the Chargers record was 8-8, 4-12, 12-4, and 9-7. Since moving to New Orleans, the Saints have been 10-6, 7-9, and 8-8. That adds up to 58-54. Impressive. Not to mention his amazing 2 playoff appearances in an 8 year career and a sterling 1-2 record in the post-season. Ben has the same number of playoff losses, but 9 more wins. The Steelers record since Ben arrived has been 56-24. It is not all because of a better defense in Pittsburgh. In San Diego, Brees has some of the most talented teams in the league with guys like Tomlinson and Gates on offense and Merriman and Jamal Williams on defense. On the basis of stats, Brees has been nothing short of remarkable. But I want a QB to be a winner.

Ben also plays on a much better team.

If we had Brees since 04, we may be looking at 3-4 trophies instead of two. It's hard to tell. Ben's skills fit this team but Brees skills are above Ben's at this moment. He just plays on a worse team. He has to win almost every game in a shootout. They have no defense. You think Ben could win games consistently if other teams put up big numbers on our defense?

It's not hard to tell if we would have won more Lombardis with Brees than we do with Ben; it's impossible to tell. It's only speculation and subjective opinion to make that statement. What we do know is that Ben is 51 and 21 and owns 2 Super Bowl rings and that Brees is about a .500 quarterback with no Super Bowl rings. You can debate the reasons from noon til night, but, the facts are the facts.

The Steelers hadn't been to the Super Bowl in 9 years until Ben was drafted, the Steelers have been there twice now and won both with Ben. Any great quarterback had a great team around him and no other sport in the world is as much a team sport as football. The offense relies on the defense and vice versa.

Montana, Young, McMahon, Elway, Manning (both), Griese, etc all were great quarterbacks on great teams. Ben Roethlisberger is not the only quarterback to have won Super Bowls with a great team around him. Dan Marino is a perfect example of a great quarterback not having a great team and not being able to win the big games. Ben would be no different without a great team around him; but, I will say this, I like the Steelers chances with a lesser team and Ben than I do any other quarterback in the league.

Ben is an unorthodox quarterback, his mechanics are spotty, he may or may not read defenses well (there's no way to tell without sitting in a film room for hours at a time and evaluating a play over and over), he may hold it too long, he may throw a subpar deep ball and yet, he wins games and makes plays in big moments. I'll take Ben's style of play over the perfect mechanic, throw it away at the first sign of trouble, big armed, quarterback that fits a mold, but, doesn't win as many games any day of the week.

Pappy

I don't disagree that Ben is a winner but I thought the question was about quarterbacking? IMO Brees is a more developed and more fundamental QB, quicker thinker and knows defenses much better. I know this isn't the board to say that so we'll leave it at that.

Isn't your team winning part of quarterbacking?

You are free to say what you believe. We also have the right to disagree or agree with what you believe. I agree that Brees may be more polished (Rivers also), but, as I stated I'll take Ben's unorthodox approach to the position, his winning percentage and ability to make plays under pressure over the polished 50/50 winner any day of the week.

Pappy

steelers43
05-05-2009, 11:31 PM
Isn't your team winning part of quarterbacking?

You are free to say what you believe. We also have the right to disagree or agree with what you believe. I agree that Brees may be more polished (Rivers also), but, as I stated I'll take Ben's unorthodox approach to the position, his winning percentage and ability to make plays under pressure over the polished 50/50 winner any day of the week.

Pappy

As stated above, if winning is your only criteria, Ben is clearly above Brees.

IF you add in and base it purely on QB skills, ala when drafting someone, it is my opinion Brees is better.

Slapstick
05-05-2009, 11:33 PM
As stated above, if winning is your only criteria, Ben is clearly above Brees.

IF you add in and base it purely on QB skills, ala when drafting someone, it is my opinion Brees is better.

That's fair...

But, in that case, why was Ben drafted at #11 while Brees was drafted at #33?

steelers43
05-05-2009, 11:35 PM
As stated above, if winning is your only criteria, Ben is clearly above Brees.

IF you add in and base it purely on QB skills, ala when drafting someone, it is my opinion Brees is better.

That's fair...

But, in that case, why was Ben drafted at #11 while Brees was drafted at #33?

Measureables basically. Size. If Brees was 6'5'', he'd have easily been a top 5 pick.

Funny story about Brees and his accuracy. He was walking with a wr recruit, can't recall his name, when the recruit asked why he should come to Purdue. They each had a ball in their hands at the time, Brees stopped, spotted an open window in a building about 50 yards away, stepped back and threw the ball through the opening. The recruit then said it was luck. He took the ball from the kid and threw it through the same opening.

Mel Blount's G
05-05-2009, 11:38 PM
As stated above, if winning is your only criteria, Ben is clearly above Brees.

IF you add in and base it purely on QB skills, ala when drafting someone, it is my opinion Brees is better.

That's fair...

But, in that case, why was Ben drafted at #11 while Brees was drafted at #33?
Because whereas Brees may be the better quarterback, Ben is the better football player

papillon
05-05-2009, 11:39 PM
Isn't your team winning part of quarterbacking?

You are free to say what you believe. We also have the right to disagree or agree with what you believe. I agree that Brees may be more polished (Rivers also), but, as I stated I'll take Ben's unorthodox approach to the position, his winning percentage and ability to make plays under pressure over the polished 50/50 winner any day of the week.

Pappy

As stated above, if winning is your only criteria, Ben is clearly above Brees.

IF you add in and base it purely on QB skills, ala when drafting someone, it is my opinion Brees is better.

If you were starting a team from scratch who would you take as your quarterback if you had the option of the two as of right now?

Pappy

steelers43
05-05-2009, 11:43 PM
Isn't your team winning part of quarterbacking?

You are free to say what you believe. We also have the right to disagree or agree with what you believe. I agree that Brees may be more polished (Rivers also), but, as I stated I'll take Ben's unorthodox approach to the position, his winning percentage and ability to make plays under pressure over the polished 50/50 winner any day of the week.

Pappy

As stated above, if winning is your only criteria, Ben is clearly above Brees.

IF you add in and base it purely on QB skills, ala when drafting someone, it is my opinion Brees is better.

If you were starting a team from scratch who would you take as your quarterback if you had the option of the two as of right now?

Pappy

Ben. He's much younger.

steelers43
05-05-2009, 11:44 PM
As stated above, if winning is your only criteria, Ben is clearly above Brees.

IF you add in and base it purely on QB skills, ala when drafting someone, it is my opinion Brees is better.

That's fair...

But, in that case, why was Ben drafted at #11 while Brees was drafted at #33?
Because whereas Brees may be the better quarterback, Ben is the better football player

That wasn't the question but nice to see you agree. Did I say that properly enough?

Flasteel
05-05-2009, 11:46 PM
Further evidence needed?

Oh, you erased the post FLA? Why, would you have been reprimanded by board manner patrol?

You talkin' about the Cartman thing? I erased it because you modified your comments before I posted.

I'm glad to see that you thought twice about making such a childish remark and we'll just let that one fade into Bolivian. :lol:

Slapstick
05-05-2009, 11:47 PM
Because whereas Brees may be the better quarterback, Ben is the better football player

Or:

Because whereas Brees may be the better quarterback, Ben is the winner...

A point that 43 acknowledges, to be sure...

I guess that if NFL games were actually Pro Bowl weekend style QB skill competitions, perhaps Brees would be the better QB...

BTW, speaking of being a better football player, does anyone think that Brees makes the tackle on Nick Harper in the '05 playoffs in Indy?

Heck, does anyone think that Brees makes the block on Okeafor (?) in SB XL that allows Randle El to make the TD pass to Hines on the Reverse Option?

steelers43
05-05-2009, 11:48 PM
Further evidence needed?

Oh, you erased the post FLA? Why, would you have been reprimanded by board manner patrol?

You talkin' about the Cartman thing? I erased it because you modified your comments before I posted.

I'm glad to see that you thought twice about making such a childish remark and we'll just let that one fade into Bolivian. :lol:

Does anyone want to phukking talk about the Steelers or should we continue to discuss me, my posting style, etc.?

I didn't realize only mother theresa and english majors were allowed to post here. My apologies.

steelers43
05-05-2009, 11:49 PM
Because whereas Brees may be the better quarterback, Ben is the better football player

Or:

Because whereas Brees may be the better quarterback, Ben is the winner...

A point that 43 acknowledges, to be sure...

I guess that if NFL games were actually Pro Bowl weekend style QB skill competitions, perhaps Brees would be the better QB...

BTW, speaking of being a better football player, does anyone think that Brees makes the tackle on Nick Harper in the '05 playoffs in Indy?

Heck, does anyone think that Brees makes the block on Okeafor (?) in SB XL that allows Randle El to make the TD pass to Hines on the Reverse Option?

Call into any football show tomorrow and ask them who the better QB is, Brees or Ben?

Let me know who agrees with you that Ben is better.

As for the block or gimmick plays, Brees doesn't really need them. He's a fundamentally strong QB adept at reading the defense and adjusting pre-snap. That's Ben's biggest weakness. One that if he masters, we will all be happy.

Ben wins more because he plays on a much better team. SD was developing when he was there and he basically helped develop the Saints. If they get a defense, they'll battle it out in what could be one of the toughest divisions this year.

papillon
05-05-2009, 11:51 PM
Isn't your team winning part of quarterbacking?

You are free to say what you believe. We also have the right to disagree or agree with what you believe. I agree that Brees may be more polished (Rivers also), but, as I stated I'll take Ben's unorthodox approach to the position, his winning percentage and ability to make plays under pressure over the polished 50/50 winner any day of the week.

Pappy

As stated above, if winning is your only criteria, Ben is clearly above Brees.

IF you add in and base it purely on QB skills, ala when drafting someone, it is my opinion Brees is better.

If you were starting a team from scratch who would you take as your quarterback if you had the option of the two as of right now?

Pappy

Ben. He's much younger.

You're opting for the quarterback you've been arguing against based on a criteria that hadn't been mentioned up until this point of the debate. It doesn't seem that you are certain Brees is the better quarterback or football player or he would have been your choice. Brees is 30 years old and still has at least 5 good years of football left in him. I don't see age being the deciding factor, but, if it is....then how about...

Replace Brees with Rivers. Who do you take now?

Pappy

Mel Blount's G
05-05-2009, 11:55 PM
That wasn't the question
:arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:

why was Ben drafted at #11 while Brees was drafted at #33?

Because...Ben is the [i]better football player
:P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P

steelers43
05-05-2009, 11:56 PM
Isn't your team winning part of quarterbacking?

You are free to say what you believe. We also have the right to disagree or agree with what you believe. I agree that Brees may be more polished (Rivers also), but, as I stated I'll take Ben's unorthodox approach to the position, his winning percentage and ability to make plays under pressure over the polished 50/50 winner any day of the week.

Pappy

As stated above, if winning is your only criteria, Ben is clearly above Brees.

IF you add in and base it purely on QB skills, ala when drafting someone, it is my opinion Brees is better.

If you were starting a team from scratch who would you take as your quarterback if you had the option of the two as of right now?

Pappy

Ben. He's much younger.

You're opting for the quarterback you've been arguing against based on a criteria that hadn't been mentioned up until this point of the debate. It doesn't seem that you are certain Brees is the better quarterback or football player or he would have been your choice. Brees is 30 years old and still has at least 5 good years of football left in him. I don't see age being the deciding factor, but, if it is....then how about...

Replace Brees with Rivers. Who do you take now?

Pappy

I don't know how to make it clearer.

The question was asked about better QB. I posted my answer and was debated by saying Ben wins. I then stated if that's the criteria, Ben is better. I guess by that rationale, you think Dilfer is better than Marino?

Now, I say I don't want to get rid of Ben and it still isn't a good enough answer.

I'm not going to keep going on about it. I answered and gave reasons. Sorry if my answers are not up to snuff.

steelers43
05-05-2009, 11:57 PM
[quote=steelers43] That wasn't the question
:arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:

why was Ben drafted at #11 while Brees was drafted at #33?

Because...Ben is the [i]better football player
:P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P[/quote:3hki8q43]

You're not making much sense in your little agenda.

See above for my draft answer.

Mel Blount's G
05-05-2009, 11:59 PM
What is my agenda 43?

Slapstick
05-06-2009, 12:02 AM
Call into any football show tomorrow and ask them who the better QB is, Brees or Ben?

Let me know who agrees with you that Ben is better.

As for the block or gimmick plays, Brees doesn't really need them. He's a fundamentally strong QB adept at reading the defense and adjusting pre-snap. That's Ben's biggest weakness. One that if he masters, we will all be happy.

Ben wins more because he plays on a much better team. SD was developing when he was there and he basically helped develop the Saints. If they get a defense, they'll battle it out in what could be one of the toughest divisions this year.

And there we have it...

To me, it isn't important who Justin Tuck or football show hosts think is better...

Championships are important...football shows and interviews are just rhetoric...

And, also, saying that Brees "doesn't need them" is the same as agreeing that Brees can't execute those types of plays...the plays that help to win championships but don't factor into the QB rating or are featured in a QB skills competition...

So, you can say that Brees is a fundamentally strong QB adept at reading the defense and adjusting pre-snap...and you would be right...

But, I'll take Ben's crunch time production and ability to win...

Let Brees throw a football into a dorm window...bully for him...scouts creamed in their pants when Kyle Boller threw a football through the goalposts from 50 yards out on his knees...

I'll take the guy who hits Santonio in the corner of the end zone with 0:35 left on the clock for the go ahead TD...

But, that's just me...

steelers43
05-06-2009, 12:06 AM
Call into any football show tomorrow and ask them who the better QB is, Brees or Ben?

Let me know who agrees with you that Ben is better.

As for the block or gimmick plays, Brees doesn't really need them. He's a fundamentally strong QB adept at reading the defense and adjusting pre-snap. That's Ben's biggest weakness. One that if he masters, we will all be happy.

Ben wins more because he plays on a much better team. SD was developing when he was there and he basically helped develop the Saints. If they get a defense, they'll battle it out in what could be one of the toughest divisions this year.

And there we have it...

To me, it isn't important who Justin Tuck or football show hosts think is better...

Championships are important...football shows and interviews are just rhetoric...

And, also, saying that Brees "doesn't need them" is the same as agreeing that Brees can't execute those types of plays...the plays that help to win championships but don't factor into the QB rating or are featured in a QB skills competition...

So, you can say that Brees is a fundamentally strong QB adept at reading the defense and adjusting pre-snap...and you would be right...

But, I'll take Ben's crunch time production and ability to win...

Let Brees throw a football into a dorm window...bully for him...scouts creamed in their pants when Kyle Boller threw a football through the goalposts from 50 yards out on his knees...

I'll take the guy who hits Santonio in the corner of the end zone with 0:35 left on the clock for the go ahead TD...

But, that's just me...

Ehh, I never liked the gimmick plays. Felt if we had better players and execution, they weren't needed.

Brees runs plenty of reverses/fake reverses so I would again disagree with you.

As for who I'd take, I have never stated I wanted another QB so not sure where that comes from. Can't question the almighty precious QB I guess.

papillon
05-06-2009, 12:07 AM
I don't know how to make it clearer.

The question was asked about better QB. I posted my answer and was debated by saying Ben wins. I then stated if that's the criteria, Ben is better. I guess by that rationale, you think Dilfer is better than Marino?

Now, I say I don't want to get rid of Ben and it still isn't a good enough answer.

I'm not going to keep going on about it. I answered and gave reasons. Sorry if my answers are not up to snuff.

You wanted to talk about the Steelers and I'm talking about the Steelers and now you're getting upset that I'm continuing to delve into your reasons for believing that Ben is an inferior quarterback to Brees. I asked who you'd select as your quarterback if you were the GM of a team and had your choice. You could have selected Brees right there and supported your belief that Brees is the better quarterback. But, you opted for Ben based on a criteria that hadn't even been introduced to the argument. So, I made the option a more age equitable situation (Ben vs Rivers) and asked for your selection and you got angry.

I'm not attacking you in any way, shape or form. I am, however, steadfast in my belief that you are wrong about the greater quarterback.

Dilfer won one GD Super Bowl, the winning comparison I've been using is the overall winning percentage of the quarterbacks. Dilfer won 50% of his games (58-55); I would hardly consider him a more accomplished quarterback than Marino (147-93).

If you don't like being challenged about your opinion. I'm sorry. I believed we were having a civil debate.

Pappy

steelers43
05-06-2009, 12:11 AM
I don't know how to make it clearer.

The question was asked about better QB. I posted my answer and was debated by saying Ben wins. I then stated if that's the criteria, Ben is better. I guess by that rationale, you think Dilfer is better than Marino?

Now, I say I don't want to get rid of Ben and it still isn't a good enough answer.

I'm not going to keep going on about it. I answered and gave reasons. Sorry if my answers are not up to snuff.

You wanted to talk about the Steelers and I'm talking about the Steelers and now you're getting upset that I'm continuing to delve into your reasons for believing that Ben is an inferior quarterback to Brees. I asked who you'd select as your quarterback if you were the GM of a team and had your choice. You could have selected Brees right there and supported your belief that Brees is the better quarterback. But, you opted for Ben based on a criteria that hadn't even been introduced to the argument. So, I made the option a more age equitable situation (Ben vs Rivers) and asked for your selection and you got angry.

I'm not attacking you in any way, shape or form. I am, however, steadfast in my belief that you are wrong about the greater quarterback.

Dilfer won one GD Super Bowl, the winning comparison I've been using is the overall winning percentage of the quarterbacks. Dilfer won 50% of his games (58-55); I would hardly consider him a more accomplished quarterback than Marino (147-93).

If you don't like being challenged about your opinion. I'm sorry. I believed we were having a civil debate.

Pappy

I didn't get angry. You asked who I would take if STARTING a team. I answered and still it isn't good enough. Sorry my opinion isn't to your liking.

I wouldn't take Peyton or Brady either but they are both better QB's imo.

Mel Blount's G
05-06-2009, 12:11 AM
Your "agenda" is quite obvious to us all Pappy

steelers43
05-06-2009, 12:13 AM
Your "agenda" is quite obvious to us all Pappy

You clearly do not like me or my posting style so save yourself some grief and ignore me. We'll both be better off that way. No need to continue the crap.

Slapstick
05-06-2009, 12:24 AM
Trent Dilfer: 14 seasons - 5 teams - 1 SB win = a fluke

Ben Roethlisberger: 5 seasons - 1 team - 2 SB wins = not a fluke

Drew Brees: 8 seasons - 2 teams - 0 SB wins = not a fluke

I'm just saying...

papillon
05-06-2009, 12:24 AM
I don't know how to make it clearer.

The question was asked about better QB. I posted my answer and was debated by saying Ben wins. I then stated if that's the criteria, Ben is better. I guess by that rationale, you think Dilfer is better than Marino?

Now, I say I don't want to get rid of Ben and it still isn't a good enough answer.

I'm not going to keep going on about it. I answered and gave reasons. Sorry if my answers are not up to snuff.

You wanted to talk about the Steelers and I'm talking about the Steelers and now you're getting upset that I'm continuing to delve into your reasons for believing that Ben is an inferior quarterback to Brees. I asked who you'd select as your quarterback if you were the GM of a team and had your choice. You could have selected Brees right there and supported your belief that Brees is the better quarterback. But, you opted for Ben based on a criteria that hadn't even been introduced to the argument. So, I made the option a more age equitable situation (Ben vs Rivers) and asked for your selection and you got angry.

I'm not attacking you in any way, shape or form. I am, however, steadfast in my belief that you are wrong about the greater quarterback.

Dilfer won one GD Super Bowl, the winning comparison I've been using is the overall winning percentage of the quarterbacks. Dilfer won 50% of his games (58-55); I would hardly consider him a more accomplished quarterback than Marino (147-93).

If you don't like being challenged about your opinion. I'm sorry. I believed we were having a civil debate.

Pappy

I didn't get angry. You asked who I would take if STARTING a team. I answered and still it isn't good enough. Sorry my opinion isn't to your liking.

I wouldn't take Peyton or Brady either but they are both better QB's imo.

It's has nothing to do with your answers being good enough or not. I'm trying to determine how it is that Brees is the better quarterback and if you're starting a team you are opting for the quarterback that you've been arguing against for 3 pages.

Ben vs Rivers? Same age

I will stop now, clearly, you're annoyed at something that I've written or pursued.

Just for the record, Brady is the only quarterback that I'd take over Ben right now, age included.

Just so you know, I've been on many of the boards that you have been a member of and I don't really have issue with you at all. You know football and are committed to your opinion. I believe others have treated you inappropriately and have said things about you, your family and lifestyle that were abhorrent. There were times that you brought their wrath upon yourself, but, nonetheless, as adults (most of us) we should be able to stand down when necessary and allow cooler heads to prevail.

There's no need to always be defensive; this is a pretty good bunch of Steeler fans. Treat them with respect and you'll have it returned in kind. State your opinion and defend your opinion as vociferously as you like without name calling or condescending words, but sometimes walking away is better and then using the PM feature to settle your dispute.

Pappy

steelers43
05-06-2009, 12:33 AM
I don't know how to make it clearer.

The question was asked about better QB. I posted my answer and was debated by saying Ben wins. I then stated if that's the criteria, Ben is better. I guess by that rationale, you think Dilfer is better than Marino?

Now, I say I don't want to get rid of Ben and it still isn't a good enough answer.

I'm not going to keep going on about it. I answered and gave reasons. Sorry if my answers are not up to snuff.

You wanted to talk about the Steelers and I'm talking about the Steelers and now you're getting upset that I'm continuing to delve into your reasons for believing that Ben is an inferior quarterback to Brees. I asked who you'd select as your quarterback if you were the GM of a team and had your choice. You could have selected Brees right there and supported your belief that Brees is the better quarterback. But, you opted for Ben based on a criteria that hadn't even been introduced to the argument. So, I made the option a more age equitable situation (Ben vs Rivers) and asked for your selection and you got angry.

I'm not attacking you in any way, shape or form. I am, however, steadfast in my belief that you are wrong about the greater quarterback.

Dilfer won one GD Super Bowl, the winning comparison I've been using is the overall winning percentage of the quarterbacks. Dilfer won 50% of his games (58-55); I would hardly consider him a more accomplished quarterback than Marino (147-93).

If you don't like being challenged about your opinion. I'm sorry. I believed we were having a civil debate.

Pappy

I didn't get angry. You asked who I would take if STARTING a team. I answered and still it isn't good enough. Sorry my opinion isn't to your liking.

I wouldn't take Peyton or Brady either but they are both better QB's imo.

It's has nothing to do with your answers being good enough or not. I'm trying to determine how it is that Brees is the better quarterback and if you're starting a team you are opting for the quarterback that you've been arguing against for 3 pages.

Ben vs Rivers? Same age

I will stop now, clearly, you're annoyed at something that I've written or pursued.

Just for the record, Brady is the only quarterback that I'd take over Ben right now, age included.

Just so you know, I've been on many of the boards that you have been a member of and I don't really have issue with you at all. You know football and are committed to your opinion. I believe others have treated you inappropriately and have said things about you, your family and lifestyle that were abhorrent. There were times that you brought their wrath upon yourself, but, nonetheless, as adults (most of us) we should be able to stand down when necessary and allow cooler heads to prevail.

There's no need to always be defensive; this is a pretty good bunch of Steeler fans. Treat them with respect and you'll have it returned in kind. State your opinion and defend your opinion as vociferously as you like without name calling or condescending words, but sometimes walking away is better and then using the PM feature to settle your dispute.

Pappy

1. Saying a QB is better than Ben does not mean I think Ben sucks or that he's not great for the team. It means I think there is someone better at the skills of QB, meaning diagnosing defenses, making accurate throws, and keeping his offense moving. I do think there is better players than Ben at this. It doesn't mean I am against Ben nor does it mean I want to trade/get rid of him. The only player on the team I view as the best at his position is, you guessed it, #43.

2. I'd like to discuss it but it gets tiresome being basically reprimanded(then accused of acting superior. Quite ironic indeed) by some members or being followed around saying I must be high.

3. Never had an issue with you either. No way I give up Ben but as for the fundamentals of QB, which is what the question was, I think there is better. As stated, as a winner and football player, he's one of the best clearly.

papillon
05-06-2009, 12:49 AM
I don't know how to make it clearer.

The question was asked about better QB. I posted my answer and was debated by saying Ben wins. I then stated if that's the criteria, Ben is better. I guess by that rationale, you think Dilfer is better than Marino?

Now, I say I don't want to get rid of Ben and it still isn't a good enough answer.

I'm not going to keep going on about it. I answered and gave reasons. Sorry if my answers are not up to snuff.

You wanted to talk about the Steelers and I'm talking about the Steelers and now you're getting upset that I'm continuing to delve into your reasons for believing that Ben is an inferior quarterback to Brees. I asked who you'd select as your quarterback if you were the GM of a team and had your choice. You could have selected Brees right there and supported your belief that Brees is the better quarterback. But, you opted for Ben based on a criteria that hadn't even been introduced to the argument. So, I made the option a more age equitable situation (Ben vs Rivers) and asked for your selection and you got angry.

I'm not attacking you in any way, shape or form. I am, however, steadfast in my belief that you are wrong about the greater quarterback.

Dilfer won one GD Super Bowl, the winning comparison I've been using is the overall winning percentage of the quarterbacks. Dilfer won 50% of his games (58-55); I would hardly consider him a more accomplished quarterback than Marino (147-93).

If you don't like being challenged about your opinion. I'm sorry. I believed we were having a civil debate.

Pappy

I didn't get angry. You asked who I would take if STARTING a team. I answered and still it isn't good enough. Sorry my opinion isn't to your liking.

I wouldn't take Peyton or Brady either but they are both better QB's imo.

It's has nothing to do with your answers being good enough or not. I'm trying to determine how it is that Brees is the better quarterback and if you're starting a team you are opting for the quarterback that you've been arguing against for 3 pages.

Ben vs Rivers? Same age

I will stop now, clearly, you're annoyed at something that I've written or pursued.

Just for the record, Brady is the only quarterback that I'd take over Ben right now, age included.

Just so you know, I've been on many of the boards that you have been a member of and I don't really have issue with you at all. You know football and are committed to your opinion. I believe others have treated you inappropriately and have said things about you, your family and lifestyle that were abhorrent. There were times that you brought their wrath upon yourself, but, nonetheless, as adults (most of us) we should be able to stand down when necessary and allow cooler heads to prevail.

There's no need to always be defensive; this is a pretty good bunch of Steeler fans. Treat them with respect and you'll have it returned in kind. State your opinion and defend your opinion as vociferously as you like without name calling or condescending words, but sometimes walking away is better and then using the PM feature to settle your dispute.

Pappy

1. Saying a QB is better than Ben does not mean I think Ben sucks or that he's not great for the team. It means I think there is someone better at the skills of QB, meaning diagnosing defenses, making accurate throws, and keeping his offense moving. I do think there is better players than Ben at this. It doesn't mean I am against Ben nor does it mean I want to trade/get rid of him. The only player on the team I view as the best at his position is, you guessed it, #43.

2. I'd like to discuss it but it gets tiresome being basically reprimanded(then accused of acting superior. Quite ironic indeed) by some members or being followed around saying I must be high.

3. Never had an issue with you either. No way I give up Ben but as for the fundamentals of QB, which is what the question was, I think there is better. As stated, as a winner and football player, he's one of the best clearly.

Fair enough, I still don't believe that Brees wins any more SBs in Pittsburgh over the past 5 years. :wink: :tt2

Pappy

RuthlessBurgher
05-06-2009, 09:54 AM
I doubt God could win a SB in NO with their defense.

Are you saying that Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball? :P

RuthlessBurgher
05-06-2009, 10:07 AM
It's just funny to me. I joined the site less than a month ago. Liked the design. Asian, contact me if you want another domain to work on?

Less than a month ago this board has less than 500 members. It's had 77 new members register since I joined but I'm the bad guy?

Not to worry, a new board is coming eventually but it will be a great one or I won't open it.


Ho-ly ****. Do you actually believe this 43? Do you honestly think of yourself as some kind of pied piper of the Steeler Nation where the Black-n-Gold throngs follow you around, hoping for pearls of wisdom to trickle from your keyboard? :lol:

Dude you need help. NPD is no laughing matter.

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/narc ... y-disorder (http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/narcissistic-personality-disorder)

When I joined on 5-15-08, there were only 50 members on this board. Since then, we have added more than 500 new members. I am the true reason for this board's growth. :P

Regarding those who have "followed" S43 here, not a single of one these new members have contributes posts in the double digits at this point. Most of those 77 names have been banned because they are the spambots who have been plaguing the board in recent weeks.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
05-06-2009, 10:36 AM
Most of those 77 names have been banned because they are the spambots who have been plaguing the board in recent weeks.

The spambots follow me here. :lol:

proudpittsburgher
05-06-2009, 10:50 AM
I don't know of anyone with any amount of credibility that would argue Ben is better than Brees. Brees is a better QB, in almost every aspect of being a QB. That's hard to argue or even try to argue.


If you don't see why people take offense to your posts, and you were the first person to attack someone before they even had a chance to argue against your point, then no one here can help you.

Most people on here don't like people who display their opinion, and then preemptively call those who disagree as "simpletons". Then to imply that you bring people to message boards . . . nevermind.

Slapstick
05-06-2009, 10:54 AM
To paraphrase Mike Tomlin:

"Ben has two Super Bowl rings...not two passing titles."

flippy
05-06-2009, 11:09 AM
1. Saying a QB is better than Ben does not mean I think Ben sucks or that he's not great for the team. It means I think there is someone better at the skills of QB, meaning diagnosing defenses, making accurate throws, and keeping his offense moving. I do think there is better players than Ben at this. It doesn't mean I am against Ben nor does it mean I want to trade/get rid of him. The only player on the team I view as the best at his position is, you guessed it, #43.

2. I'd like to discuss it but it gets tiresome being basically reprimanded(then accused of acting superior. Quite ironic indeed) by some members or being followed around saying I must be high.

3. Never had an issue with you either. No way I give up Ben but as for the fundamentals of QB, which is what the question was, I think there is better. As stated, as a winner and football player, he's one of the best clearly.

We're all just here to discuss football. It's ok to disagree. I've never understood why many people take disagreement on a topic as personal. It's not personal, it's just disagreement. If we all agreed on everything it would be boring.

Everyone says you're high because your original nickname was 420. I didn't know the reference. Apparently other folks more familiar with pot did know the reference and this is how it all started and why it continues.

You smoke pot? so what? I work at McDonalds and flip burgers. If we don't want people to know that we should have picked different user names. You could always start over a re-register under a different name. And leave the baggage behind and just discuss football.

And banter is a healthy part of male relationships. It's good to surround yourself with people that take you down a notch when you need it.

It's also good to build each other up.

So take the opportunity for today to be a new day for us all.

and let's go Steelers!

WoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

stlrz d
05-06-2009, 11:19 AM
I doubt God could win a SB in NO with their defense.

Are you saying that Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball? :P

Maybe not, but that walking on water thing might come in handy down in the Big Easy. :D

flippy
05-06-2009, 11:33 AM
I doubt God could win a SB in NO with their defense.

Are you saying that Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball? :P

Jesus couldn't stop Ovechkin from scoring with the Pens defense.

RuthlessBurgher
05-06-2009, 12:15 PM
I doubt God could win a SB in NO with their defense.

Are you saying that Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball? :P

Jesus couldn't stop Ovechkin from scoring with the Pens defense.

http://zoonormous.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/jesus-saves.jpg http://bp2.blogger.com/_NB2ClHB2gmk/RiTmpYobrkI/AAAAAAAAAHs/uinbTwtUjH0/s320/jesus-saves.jpeg

pfelix73
05-06-2009, 02:37 PM
WOW-

Thanks to all for all these posts! Haven't been here for 2 days and I see that there's been some bickering amongst some of you on here. I'll have to get caught up and read all 7 pages worth. That is, when I'm ready for a soap opera.....

--This is the longest thread as far as pages-wise that I've ever had on here..... yay.

Little things such as this makes me :D

:tt2

True Fan
05-06-2009, 03:05 PM
yup, just like you said you would never go to that new site.......... :roll:

What?[/quote]


you're a liar