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Mister Pittsburgh
04-29-2009, 12:08 PM
Was wonder what you guys thought of the OT Jason Peters trade between the Bills and Eagles. The Eagles gave up the 28th pick, a fourth rounder, and a sixth rounder in the 2010 draft. The Eagles then signed him to a contract extension where he will make 60 million over 6 seasons. His contract upon the trade was for 2 more seasons. They added 4 years with 53 million of new money.

That would have given us a pro bowl LT for six seasons. Instead we are paying Max Starks 8.5 Million for one season and he will more than likely be gone. If he wouldn't sign a long term extension last offseason why would he this offseason?

I think I would have pulled the trigger on that deal unless they feel that OT Tony Hills or one of the others like Capizzi will be ready to step in to replace Starks.

papillon
04-29-2009, 12:11 PM
Was wonder what you guys thought of the OT Jason Peters trade between the Bills and Eagles. The Eagles gave up the 28th pick, a fourth rounder, and a sixth rounder in the 2010 draft. The Eagles then signed him to a contract extension where he will make 60 million over 6 seasons. His contract upon the trade was for 2 more seasons. They added 4 years with 53 million of new money.

That would have given us a pro bowl LT for six seasons. Instead we are paying Max Starks 8.5 Million for one season and he will more than likely be gone. If he wouldn't sign a long term extension last offseason why would he this offseason?

I think I would have pulled the trigger on that deal unless they feel that OT Tony Hills or one of the others like Capizzi will be ready to step in to replace Starks.

Unfortunately, Max had already signed his offer (and, pulled a hamstring getting to the table), so, having two highly compensated tackles would have been cost prohibitive. Now, if you're talking about making the trade prior to tagging Starks and his immediate signing then I would consider the trade.

Pappy

Mister Pittsburgh
04-29-2009, 12:13 PM
I was under the impression they could still cut Starks before the season, or by a certain point in time closer to camp or the reg. season and not owe him anything. Guess not.
:oops:

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
04-29-2009, 12:19 PM
I was under the impression they could still cut Starks before the season, or by a certain point in time closer to camp or the reg. season and not owe him anything. Guess not.
:oops:

No. Starks' contract became guaranteed the moment he signed it. The only person who can tear it up would be him - and that would require a long term deal I'm sure. The only deal that would have made sense involving Peters would have been a trade involving Starks - and that wasn't going to happen.

aggiebones
04-29-2009, 12:29 PM
If memory serves, Peters had a bad or at least mediocre season last year and was complaining about contract stuff. Do we really want a guy that can only be happy sitting on a huge pile of money cause at some point he'll be unhappy again. We'll make a move after this season if Starks won't resign. I'm OK with delaying t hings for a season. Stop worrying soo much about the $8.5M on Starks. Some guys have us trapped a bit and they get a bit more money from it.

Mister Pittsburgh
04-29-2009, 12:31 PM
If memory serves, Peters had a bad or at least mediocre season last year and was complaining about contract stuff. Do we really want a guy that can only be happy sitting on a huge pile of money cause at some point he'll be unhappy again. We'll make a move after this season if Starks won't resign. I'm OK with delaying t hings for a season. Stop worrying soo much about the $8.5M on Starks. Some guys have us trapped a bit and they get a bit more money from it.

How do you think we will address this? Try and trade for someone, sign a free agent, or draft an OT at pick 32 next draft and start him from the get-go......

True Fan
04-29-2009, 12:43 PM
If memory serves, Peters had a bad or at least mediocre season last year and was complaining about contract stuff. Do we really want a guy that can only be happy sitting on a huge pile of money cause at some point he'll be unhappy again. We'll make a move after this season if Starks won't resign. I'm OK with delaying t hings for a season. Stop worrying soo much about the $8.5M on Starks. Some guys have us trapped a bit and they get a bit more money from it.

How do you think we will address this? Try and trade for someone, sign a free agent, or draft an OT at pick 32 next draft and start him from the get-go......


they wont address. they haven't in years. enjoy last years superbowl and this years run, it will be the last for awhile

RuthlessBurgher
04-29-2009, 12:48 PM
According to that "2008 sacks allowed" list that has been circulating around the internet for the past few months, Peters gave up an NFL-worst-for-left-tackles 11.5 sacks in 13 starts, while Starks gave up a middle-of-the-pack 4 sacks in 11 starts.

1. Ryan Clady (Broncos) 0.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
2. Michael Roos (Titans) 1.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
3. Tra Thomas (Eagles) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
3. Orlando Pace (Rams) 2.0 sacks allowed (14 starts)
5. Jake Long (Dolphins) 2.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
6. Jordan Gross (Panthers) 3.0 sacks allowed (15 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
6. Jammal Brown (Saints) 3.0 sacks allowed (15 starts)
6. Jared Gaither (Ravens) 3.0 sacks allowed (15 starts)
6. Marcus McNeill (Chargers) 3.0 sacks allowed (14 starts)
6. Tony Ugoh (Colts) 3.0 sacks allowed (12 starts)
6. Chris Samuels (Redskins) 3.0 sacks allowed (12 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
6. Todd Weiner (Falcons) 3.0 sacks allowed (11 starts)
13. Walter Jones (Seahawks) 3.5 sacks allowed (12 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
14. D’Brickashaw Ferguson (Jets) 4.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
14. Bryant McKinnie (Vikings) 4.0 sacks allowed (12 starts)
14. Max Starks (Steelers) 4.0 sacks allowed (11 starts)
17. Joe Thomas (Browns) 4.5 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
17. Branden Albert (Cheifs) 4.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)
19. Levi Brown (Bengals) 5.5 sacks allowed (11 starts)
20. Mike Gandy (Cardinals) 6.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)
21. David Diehl (Giants) 6.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
22. Flozell Adams (Cowboys) 7.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)
23. Khalif Barnes (Jags) 7.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
23. Matt Light (Pats) 7.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
23. Chad Clifton (Packers) 7.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)
23. Kwame Harris (Raiders) 7.5 sacks allowed (11 starts)
27. Joe Staley (49ers) 8.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
28. Donald Penn (Bucs) 8.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
29. Jeff Backus (Lions) 9.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)
30. John St. Clair (Bears) 9.75 sacks allowed (16 starts)
31. Duane Brown (Texans) 11.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
31. Jason Peters (Bills) 11.5 sacks allowed (13 starts) *PRO-BOWL*

Mister Pittsburgh
04-29-2009, 12:50 PM
I am thinking we will have to get a little more creative than draft and develop unless we end up picking in the top 15 because it seems most OT that could start year one are picked then. I am all for draft and develop being the best method, until it gets to the point that you are starting mediocre talent because you refuse to get more creative like a trade or sign a bigtime free agent.

steelers43
04-29-2009, 01:03 PM
PEters is a complete jerk. No thanks.

frankthetank1
04-29-2009, 01:28 PM
[quote=aggiebones]If memory serves, Peters had a bad or at least mediocre season last year and was complaining about contract stuff. Do we really want a guy that can only be happy sitting on a huge pile of money cause at some point he'll be unhappy again. We'll make a move after this season if Starks won't resign. I'm OK with delaying t hings for a season. Stop worrying soo much about the $8.5M on Starks. Some guys have us trapped a bit and they get a bit more money from it.

How do you think we will address this? Try and trade for someone, sign a free agent, or draft an OT at pick 32 next draft and start him from the get-go......


they wont address. they haven't in years. enjoy last years superbowl and this years run, it will be the last for awhile[/quote:zki3gcx8]

you probably said the same thing after the 2005 sb too. your right the fo sucks. all the team does is win the division and win sb's :roll:

feltdizz
04-29-2009, 01:45 PM
I am thinking we will have to get a little more creative than draft and develop unless we end up picking in the top 15 because it seems most OT that could start year one are picked then. I am all for draft and develop being the best method, until it gets to the point that you are starting mediocre talent because you refuse to get more creative like a trade or sign a bigtime free agent.

I think when you draft OT in the top 10 you are so bad you have to start him.

Besides the Steelers I wonder how many teams sit their 1st round picks... or are patient enough not to throw them out there.

feltdizz
04-29-2009, 01:48 PM
[quote=aggiebones]If memory serves, Peters had a bad or at least mediocre season last year and was complaining about contract stuff. Do we really want a guy that can only be happy sitting on a huge pile of money cause at some point he'll be unhappy again. We'll make a move after this season if Starks won't resign. I'm OK with delaying t hings for a season. Stop worrying soo much about the $8.5M on Starks. Some guys have us trapped a bit and they get a bit more money from it.

How do you think we will address this? Try and trade for someone, sign a free agent, or draft an OT at pick 32 next draft and start him from the get-go......


they wont address. they haven't in years. enjoy last years superbowl and this years run, it will be the last for awhile

you probably said the same thing after the 2005 sb too. your right the fo sucks. all the team does is win the division and win sb's :roll:[/quote:2tkidq4m]

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005B6QL.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

DOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!

pfelix73
04-29-2009, 02:04 PM
There would be another possibility next year after we the win the SB again-

Franchise tag Max once more. I too think people are worried too much about our LT. Besides, there are bound to be other FA OT's next year as well.

RuthlessBurgher
04-29-2009, 02:46 PM
There would be another possibility next year after we the win the SB again-

Franchise tag Max once more. I too think people are worried too much about our LT. Besides, there are bound to be other FA OT's next year as well.

You do realize that franchising someone a second time is an automatic 20% raise over the previous year's franchise tag value, right? Franchising Starks again would cost over $10 million. Franchising Heath Miller instead would be less than half that, likely in the neighborhood of $4-5 million (using this year's numbers as an approximation, since the 2010 figures are obviously not out yet).

grotonsteel
04-29-2009, 02:47 PM
Max Starks >>>>>>>>>>>>> J Peters.

I would not give Jason Peters 6yrs - 60 million dollars. Way too much money for a tackle who has given max number of sacks.

I don't think Steelers were looking for a 1st Rd Tackle. If that was the case they would have pulled the trigger on Michael Oher or Britton.

Steelers O-LIne 2009:
Starks-Kemo-Hartwig-Ubrik-Colon
Essex-Darnell-Hills

steelers43
04-29-2009, 03:27 PM
There would be another possibility next year after we the win the SB again-

Franchise tag Max once more. I too think people are worried too much about our LT. Besides, there are bound to be other FA OT's next year as well.

Counting on good fa tackles is a stretch. Good ones rarely make it to FA without cause.

A good LT gets signed, transitioned or franchised. They don't get to test the market.

Mel Blount's G
04-29-2009, 04:01 PM
Max Starks >>>>>>>>>>>>> J Peters.

I would not give Jason Peters 6yrs - 60 million dollars. Way too much money for a tackle who has given max number of sacks.

I don't think Steelers were looking for a 1st Rd Tackle. If that was the case they would have pulled the trigger on Michael Oher or Britton.

Steelers O-LIne 2009:
Starks-Kemo-Hartwig-Ubrik-Colon
Essex-Darnell-Hills
Slight addendum

Starks-Kemo-Hartwig-Ubrik-Colon
Essex-Shipley-Darnell-Hills

RuthlessBurgher
04-29-2009, 04:13 PM
Steelers O-LIne 2009:
Starks-Kemo-Hartwig-Ubrik-Colon
Essex-Darnell-Hills
Slight addendum

Starks-Kemo-Hartwig-Ubrik-Colon
Essex-Shipley-Darnell-Hills[/quote]

I'm hoping that Urbik shows enough in camp to make that happen, because I think Stapleton was a weak link as a starter (although his versatility does make him a valuable back-up).

In this scenario, since Stapleton can play guard or center and Essex can play tackle or guard, they would likely be active on gamedays as our primary back-up options, with Shipley and Hills being inactive more often than not.

steelers43
04-29-2009, 04:21 PM
Max - Kemo - Shipley - Urbik - Colon and let them develop. Quit moving them around all camp.

Backups, Essex, Stapleton, Hills

Hartwig cut.

RuthlessBurgher
04-29-2009, 04:43 PM
Max - Kemo - Shipley - Urbik - Colon and let them develop. Quit moving them around all camp.

Backups, Essex, Stapleton, Hills

Hartwig cut.

We aren't cutting our starting center for a rookie 7th round draft pick.

Shipley competes with Stapleton for the starting center job in 2010 when Hartwig's contract is up.

phillyesq
04-29-2009, 05:00 PM
If memory serves, Peters had a bad or at least mediocre season last year and was complaining about contract stuff. Do we really want a guy that can only be happy sitting on a huge pile of money cause at some point he'll be unhappy again. We'll make a move after this season if Starks won't resign. I'm OK with delaying t hings for a season. Stop worrying soo much about the $8.5M on Starks. Some guys have us trapped a bit and they get a bit more money from it.

How do you think we will address this? Try and trade for someone, sign a free agent, or draft an OT at pick 32 next draft and start him from the get-go......

I agree that Peters is not the answer. Terrible season, terrible attitude -- not a Steelers type guy.

Barring Tony Hills somehow becoming a starting caliber LT (and I'm not holding my breath), I think that next year the Steelers try to extend Starks. He has very little incentive to sign an extension right now, but if he decides that he does not want the security next year, and will not sign a reasonable deal, let him walk. Sign a veteran FA (Tra Thomas will likely be available after the Jags drafted OTs in the first and second this year) and bring in a draft pick.

steelers43
04-29-2009, 08:58 PM
Max - Kemo - Shipley - Urbik - Colon and let them develop. Quit moving them around all camp.

Backups, Essex, Stapleton, Hills

Hartwig cut.

We aren't cutting our starting center for a rookie 7th round draft pick.

Shipley competes with Stapleton for the starting center job in 2010 when Hartwig's contract is up.

We'll see. Cutting him will save about $1.3 mill cap. The other option is to cut Stapleton or Shipley and potentially lose a good young player to keep an average older center.

I personally think he will be cut loose. The only thing that may save him is an incredible camp or injury to Stapleton or Shipley.

RuthlessBurgher
04-29-2009, 10:39 PM
Max - Kemo - Shipley - Urbik - Colon and let them develop. Quit moving them around all camp.

Backups, Essex, Stapleton, Hills

Hartwig cut.

We aren't cutting our starting center for a rookie 7th round draft pick.

Shipley competes with Stapleton for the starting center job in 2010 when Hartwig's contract is up.

We'll see. Cutting him will save about $1.3 mill cap. The other option is to cut Stapleton or Shipley and potentially lose a good young player to keep an average older center.

I personally think he will be cut loose. The only thing that may save him is an incredible camp or injury to Stapleton or Shipley.

You can keep all three of them. The five starters from last year stay. Essex stays. Hills stays. And the two rookies from this class make nine o-lineman on the 53 man roster. That is not unreasonable. They may only dress 7 o-linemen on gameday since Essex and Stapleton have position flexiblility (guard/tackle and center/guard, respectively). Two of the o-lineman may be on the 53 man roster but deactivated on most gamedays (which is not unusual). They can let Capizzi, Parquet, and Legursky walk.

steelers43
04-29-2009, 11:12 PM
Max - Kemo - Shipley - Urbik - Colon and let them develop. Quit moving them around all camp.

Backups, Essex, Stapleton, Hills

Hartwig cut.

We aren't cutting our starting center for a rookie 7th round draft pick.

Shipley competes with Stapleton for the starting center job in 2010 when Hartwig's contract is up.

We'll see. Cutting him will save about $1.3 mill cap. The other option is to cut Stapleton or Shipley and potentially lose a good young player to keep an average older center.

I personally think he will be cut loose. The only thing that may save him is an incredible camp or injury to Stapleton or Shipley.

You can keep all three of them. The five starters from last year stay. Essex stays. Hills stays. And the two rookies from this class make nine o-lineman on the 53 man roster. That is not unreasonable. They may only dress 7 o-linemen on gameday since Essex and Stapleton have position flexiblility (guard/tackle and center/guard, respectively). Two of the o-lineman may be on the 53 man roster but deactivated on most gamedays (which is not unusual). They can let Capizzi, Parquet, and Legursky walk.

We'll see. I think we need the $1.3 in cap space a lot more than we need a 31 year old average center in his last year, especially when we have Stapleton and Shipley to battle it out.

RuthlessBurgher
04-30-2009, 12:29 AM
We were up against the cap before signing Batch, but then got a little bit from releasing Russell, a little bit more from Ike retructuring, even more with Hines' extension, and now they plan to trade or cut Foote. The savings for Foote are more than twice what the savings for Hartwig would be. And he has a 1st round pick ready to step into the lineup for him. Right now, since Stapleton is still penciled in as your starting right guard, all you have behind Hartwig is an '08 UDFA in Legursky and an '09 7th round pick in Shipley, neither of which have any pro playing experience whatsoever. Your solution is to cut the only veteran center on your roster? It's not quite as bad as that other thread in which someone suggested cutting Colon to keep Russell, but the logic is awfully close.

steelers43
04-30-2009, 01:02 AM
We were up against the cap before signing Batch, but then got a little bit from releasing Russell, a little bit more from Ike retructuring, even more with Hines' extension, and now they plan to trade or cut Foote. The savings for Foote are more than twice what the savings for Hartwig would be. And he has a 1st round pick ready to step into the lineup for him. Right now, since Stapleton is still penciled in as your starting right guard, all you have behind Hartwig is an '08 UDFA in Legursky and an '09 7th round pick in Shipley, neither of which have any pro playing experience whatsoever. Your solution is to cut the only veteran center on your roster? It's not quite as bad as that other thread in which someone suggested cutting Colon to keep Russell, but the logic is awfully close.

I guess I have to spell it out for you as you clearly can't comprehend it.

1. We need cap room.

2. Max and Heath are looking for extensions. Colon possibe as well.

3. I don't see Hartwig as anything but serviceable. And 31 this fall.

4. I don't want to cut a young cheap player with hope for a old player with nothing but downside.

5. I think Stapleton and Shipley will give Hartwig a run this fall, thus rendering Hartwig expendable.

Is that clearer?

stlrz d
04-30-2009, 01:34 AM
We were up against the cap before signing Batch, but then got a little bit from releasing Russell, a little bit more from Ike retructuring, even more with Hines' extension, and now they plan to trade or cut Foote. The savings for Foote are more than twice what the savings for Hartwig would be. And he has a 1st round pick ready to step into the lineup for him. Right now, since Stapleton is still penciled in as your starting right guard, all you have behind Hartwig is an '08 UDFA in Legursky and an '09 7th round pick in Shipley, neither of which have any pro playing experience whatsoever. Your solution is to cut the only veteran center on your roster? It's not quite as bad as that other thread in which someone suggested cutting Colon to keep Russell, but the logic is awfully close.

I guess I have to spell it out for you as you clearly can't comprehend it.

1. We need cap room.

2. Max and Heath are looking for extensions. Colon possibe as well.

3. I don't see Hartwig as anything but serviceable. And 31 this fall.

4. I don't want to cut a young cheap player with hope for a old player with nothing but downside.

5. I think Stapleton and Shipley will give Hartwig a run this fall, thus rendering Hartwig expendable.

Is that clearer?

Now it is.

steelers43
04-30-2009, 11:10 AM
We were up against the cap before signing Batch, but then got a little bit from releasing Russell, a little bit more from Ike retructuring, even more with Hines' extension, and now they plan to trade or cut Foote. The savings for Foote are more than twice what the savings for Hartwig would be. And he has a 1st round pick ready to step into the lineup for him. Right now, since Stapleton is still penciled in as your starting right guard, all you have behind Hartwig is an '08 UDFA in Legursky and an '09 7th round pick in Shipley, neither of which have any pro playing experience whatsoever. Your solution is to cut the only veteran center on your roster? It's not quite as bad as that other thread in which someone suggested cutting Colon to keep Russell, but the logic is awfully close.

I guess I have to spell it out for you as you clearly can't comprehend it.

1. We need cap room.

2. Max and Heath are looking for extensions. Colon possibe as well.

3. I don't see Hartwig as anything but serviceable. And 31 this fall.

4. I don't want to cut a young cheap player with hope for a old player with nothing but downside.

5. I think Stapleton and Shipley will give Hartwig a run this fall, thus rendering Hartwig expendable.

Is that clearer?

Now it is.


My aplogies for posting an opinion on a message board. I did not know someone as delicate as you would take such offense.

Is it not an opinion of yours that we will keep Hartwig? Or do you have this as factual evidence? If so, please share.

PS, lighten up francis!

ikestops85
04-30-2009, 11:30 AM
I don't see Hartwig being released this year. Not without another proven center on the roster. If Cowher were still coach I would guarantee Hartwig is safe. With Tomlin I wouldn't go that far (which is one of the reasons I like him). Shipley could cement a roster spot if he can win the long snapper job ... that would be a huge bonus. Next year will be the year we see if some of these backups can step it up and win starting jobs ... Shipley and Hills being 2 of them.

stlrz d
04-30-2009, 11:37 AM
We were up against the cap before signing Batch, but then got a little bit from releasing Russell, a little bit more from Ike retructuring, even more with Hines' extension, and now they plan to trade or cut Foote. The savings for Foote are more than twice what the savings for Hartwig would be. And he has a 1st round pick ready to step into the lineup for him. Right now, since Stapleton is still penciled in as your starting right guard, all you have behind Hartwig is an '08 UDFA in Legursky and an '09 7th round pick in Shipley, neither of which have any pro playing experience whatsoever. Your solution is to cut the only veteran center on your roster? It's not quite as bad as that other thread in which someone suggested cutting Colon to keep Russell, but the logic is awfully close.

I guess I have to spell it out for you as you clearly can't comprehend it.

1. We need cap room.

2. Max and Heath are looking for extensions. Colon possibe as well.

3. I don't see Hartwig as anything but serviceable. And 31 this fall.

4. I don't want to cut a young cheap player with hope for a old player with nothing but downside.

5. I think Stapleton and Shipley will give Hartwig a run this fall, thus rendering Hartwig expendable.

Is that clearer?

Now it is.


My aplogies for posting an opinion on a message board. I did not know someone as delicate as you would take such offense.

Is it not an opinion of yours that we will keep Hartwig? Or do you have this as factual evidence? If so, please share.

PS, lighten up francis!

Delicate? Nah. I was just pointing out that you're posting what you would do, not what you really believe the Steelers will do.

With no center who's proven he can start there's no way they'd be foolish enough to release Hartwig.

steelers43
04-30-2009, 11:43 AM
[quote=RuthlessBurgher]We were up against the cap before signing Batch, but then got a little bit from releasing Russell, a little bit more from Ike retructuring, even more with Hines' extension, and now they plan to trade or cut Foote. The savings for Foote are more than twice what the savings for Hartwig would be. And he has a 1st round pick ready to step into the lineup for him. Right now, since Stapleton is still penciled in as your starting right guard, all you have behind Hartwig is an '08 UDFA in Legursky and an '09 7th round pick in Shipley, neither of which have any pro playing experience whatsoever. Your solution is to cut the only veteran center on your roster? It's not quite as bad as that other thread in which someone suggested cutting Colon to keep Russell, but the logic is awfully close.

I guess I have to spell it out for you as you clearly can't comprehend it.

1. We need cap room.

2. Max and Heath are looking for extensions. Colon possibe as well.

3. I don't see Hartwig as anything but serviceable. And 31 this fall.

4. I don't want to cut a young cheap player with hope for a old player with nothing but downside.

5. I think Stapleton and Shipley will give Hartwig a run this fall, thus rendering Hartwig expendable.

Is that clearer?

Now it is.


My aplogies for posting an opinion on a message board. I did not know someone as delicate as you would take such offense.

Is it not an opinion of yours that we will keep Hartwig? Or do you have this as factual evidence? If so, please share.

PS, lighten up francis!

Delicate? Nah. I was just pointing out that you're posting what you would do, not what you really believe the Steelers will do.

With no center who's proven he can start there's no way they'd be foolish enough to release Hartwig.[/quote:3qlsbhk9]


Yes, it's what I think will happen and what they will do. You act like Hartwig is some kind of superhero or something.

You are also posting what you think will happen but I can't understand why you are taking such a hissy fit over someone disagreeing?

stlrz d
04-30-2009, 11:56 AM
I don't act like he's some kind of "super hero". I disagreed with the person who thought they should have cut Colon instead of Russell for the same reason...and it wasn't because I think Colon is a "super hero".

I post what a successful team will do, which is not cut a capable player when there is no proven, capable replacement.

They won't cut Hartwig since there is no proven back up to take his place. The Steelers don't do foolish things like that.

And I wasn't having a hissy fit. But by making those assumptions it appears as if you are.

steelers43
04-30-2009, 12:02 PM
I don't act like he's some kind of "super hero". I disagreed with the person who thought they should have cut Colon instead of Russell for the same reason...and it wasn't because I think Colon is a "super hero".

I post what a successful team will do, which is not cut a capable player when there is no proven, capable replacement.

They won't cut Hartwig since there is no proven back up to take his place. The Steelers don't do foolish things like that.

And I wasn't having a hissy fit. But by making those assumptions it appears as if you are.

Oh, so you have inside information on Stapleton and his development?

You are the one getting bent out of shape over my opinion. Not the other way around. i.e. hissy fit.

RuthlessBurgher
04-30-2009, 12:11 PM
It just doesn't make sense for a team that obviously is valuing continuity along the o-line (or else they would not have given Kemoeatu a long-term deal, Starks a franchise tag, and Colon an RFA tender that would have required 1st round compensation) would release their veteran starting center in order to go with an unproven players. Stapleton, an UDFA in 2007, has starting experience in the league as a right guard, but has not played in an actual game at center since he was at Rutgers. Plus, that move would force you to make two changes at once (a new starting center and a new starting right guard), which a team that values continuity would hate to do. The only other options are completely inexperienced at this level: the second year player Legursky, an UDFA in 2008, and the rookie Shipley, a 7th round pick in 2009. Dumping Hartwig now would give them their fourth different center to start a season in the past four years. That is not how you want to begin the defense of your Super Bowl title. They may not re-sign Hartwing to another contract beyond this season, but they aren't going to cut him now just because they were able to get a short-armed center from Penn State in the 7th round that every team passed on 6 times this past weekend.

steelers43
04-30-2009, 12:36 PM
It just doesn't make sense for a team that obviously is valuing continuity along the o-line (or else they would not have given Kemoeatu a long-term deal, Starks a franchise tag, and Colon an RFA tender that would have required 1st round compensation) would release their veteran starting center in order to go with an unproven players. Stapleton, an UDFA in 2007, has starting experience in the league as a right guard, but has not played in an actual game at center since he was at Rutgers. Plus, that move would force you to make two changes at once (a new starting center and a new starting right guard), which a team that values continuity would hate to do. The only other options are completely inexperienced at this level: the second year player Legursky, an UDFA in 2008, and the rookie Shipley, a 7th round pick in 2009. Dumping Hartwig now would give them their fourth different center to start a season in the past four years. That is not how you want to begin the defense of your Super Bowl title. They may not re-sign Hartwing to another contract beyond this season, but they aren't going to cut him now just because they were able to get a short-armed center from Penn State in the 7th round that every team passed on 6 times this past weekend.


All of those guys you mentioned us keeping are mid 20's and have upside. The only side the soon to be 31 Hartwig has is downside. If Stapleton or Shipley show enough, Hartwig's almost $2 mill salary become expendable.

pfelix73
04-30-2009, 04:33 PM
Dumping Hartwig at this point or any point between now and this fall is just absurd.

I also don't know if the rook will be good enough to beat out Stapleton at this point. Afterall, Stapleton is a vet now and the rook, well, he's just a rook.

We'll have plenty of time this summer to see if he can move Stapleton from the RG spot. I'd like to see Essex win that spot, actually. Urbik will back up Kemo, or vice versa. Too early for all of that.

Furthermore, going back to re- franchising Max for 2010- 20%? That's only like 1.5 million more than he is getting now. Heck, he's getting the big $ now, so what's another $1.5 mil. +-.....

just sayin'

:tt1

steelers43
04-30-2009, 05:08 PM
Dumping Hartwig at this point or any point between now and this fall is just absurd.

I also don't know if the rook will be good enough to beat out Stapleton at this point. Afterall, Stapleton is a vet now and the rook, well, he's just a rook.

We'll have plenty of time this summer to see if he can move Stapleton from the RG spot. I'd like to see Essex win that spot, actually. Urbik will back up Kemo, or vice versa. Too early for all of that.

Furthermore, going back to re- franchising Max for 2010- 20%? That's only like 1.5 million more than he is getting now. Heck, he's getting the big $ now, so what's another $1.5 mil. +-.....

just sayin'

:tt1

YOu clearly think much higher of Hartwig than I. I can think of a lot of reasons not to pay him his almost $2 mill salary.

Mister Pittsburgh
04-30-2009, 07:13 PM
Should we all just count Doug Legursky out? Didn't they sign him to a 2 year deal? Legursky is larger than Shipley and a former competitive power lifter. I am not counting him out for surprising some people this camp.

COLLEGE: Was a three-time All-Conference USA selection…started 32 straight games for the Thundering Herd to close out his career…ranked among the strongest football players to play at Marshall and holds Marshall weight room records for the squat (705 lbs.) and the hang clean (430 lbs.)…majored in education. 2007: Started all 12 games at center and earned All-Conference USA honors for a second consecutive year from league coaches and the media...named to the Rimington Trophy Watch List....played in 47 consecutive games for Marshall. 2006: Started all 12 games at center for the Thundering Herd...was a 2006 Rimington Trophy nominee at the beginning of the season...earned first team All-Conference USA honors on both the media and coaches teams...Marshall’s strongest student-athlete in weight training. 2005: Started all 11 games along the offensive line for the Herd, 10 of them at center...was a 2005 Rimington Trophy nominee at the beginning of the season, the only true sophomore to be named to the watch list...earned second team All-Conference honors. 2004: Saw action in all 12 games along the offensive line and saw significant time at center as a true freshman.

stlrz d
04-30-2009, 11:16 PM
RB & Pfelix - Thank you. Dumping Hartwig makes no sense whatsoever...unless you are someone who believes that just any big body can be turned into an O lineman.

steelers43
04-30-2009, 11:26 PM
RB & Pfelix - Thank you. Dumping Hartwig makes no sense whatsoever...unless you are someone who believes that just any big body can be turned into an O lineman.


I haven't seen anyone say they believe that.

stlrz d
04-30-2009, 11:32 PM
RB & Pfelix - Thank you. Dumping Hartwig makes no sense whatsoever...unless you are someone who believes that just any big body can be turned into an O lineman.


I haven't seen anyone say they believe that.

Whatever.

steelers43
04-30-2009, 11:36 PM
[quote="stlrz d":8hsgqlbb]RB & Pfelix - Thank you. Dumping Hartwig makes no sense whatsoever...unless you are someone who believes that just any big body can be turned into an O lineman.


I haven't seen anyone say they believe that.

Whatever.[/quote:8hsgqlbb]

Up against the cap,

strapped to sign or extend players,

a mediocre center making almost $2 mill,

three young up and coming centers,

Add them all up and you get the possiblity or maybe even the likelihood of Hartwig being gone. There's a reason his SB and first year salary equalled about $2 mill and his second year salary is almost $2 mill itself.

If the young guys are any good, Hartwig is HISTORY!

pfelix73
05-01-2009, 10:22 AM
I was wondering if you had a chance to read from that one thread on what Craig Wolfley was saying?

You might not value his opinion or the opinion of some of the coaching staff, but if you did, you would realize that Hartwig was actually one of the better performing linemen from last year. So you would give up your starting Center for cap space? Aren't they OK right now anyway?

frankthetank1
05-01-2009, 10:26 AM
i think hartwig is ok. he was pretty good last year. he has a history of injuries that concearn me but he is an average center. if they are going to replace anyone on the oline they should start with colon and stapleton

steelers43
05-01-2009, 11:01 AM
I was wondering if you had a chance to read from that one thread on what Craig Wolfley was saying?

You might not value his opinion or the opinion of some of the coaching staff, but if you did, you would realize that Hartwig was actually one of the better performing linemen from last year. So you would give up your starting Center for cap space? Aren't they OK right now anyway?

Yeah, he was okay. Okay doesn't thrill me. Stapleton, Colon, Max, etc. were also okay and many want to replace them.

Somehow Hartwig is a superhero in many eyes. He's a replaceable part, served his purpose well and the center competition should be wide open. If it's close, his age and salary will play a part in keeping a younger player with more upside and less salary.

pfelix73
05-01-2009, 11:14 AM
Yea, well, as an old OL here talking, the MOST IMPORTANT thing along the OL is cohesiveness. I'm sure you've heard this many times. It's very true that this unit works as just that. It's the most important unit of 5 men on a football team. They got better as the year went along and their communication with one another will only improve with another camp and season. Most of them are young and I expect good things out of this bunch in 2009.....

You keep Hartwig there and maybe even try and re-sign him at a good price.

steelers43
05-01-2009, 11:20 AM
Yea, well, as an old OL here talking, the MOST IMPORTANT thing along the OL is cohesiveness. I'm sure you've heard this many times. It's very true that this unit works as just that. It's the most important unit of 5 men on a football team. They got better as the year went along and their communication with one another will only improve with another camp and season. Most of them are young and I expect good things out of this bunch in 2009.....

You keep Hartwig there and maybe even try and re-sign him at a good price.

While I agree that time helps an OL, the moving around the last few camps has hurt the team. Tomlin needs to stop that crap.

Now, I see no reason to re-sign Hartwig. He'll be 32 next season and I'd rather get a jump on the chemistry of the future and spend that money on players with upside and a future. Starks, Colon, etc.

stlrz d
05-01-2009, 11:28 AM
Let the record reflect that no one is calling Hartwig a super hero.

All they are saying is that a smart FO doesn't cut a guy when there is no proven back up on the roster to take his place.

A person would have to be stupid or stoned (or both) to do such a thing.

steelers43
05-01-2009, 11:33 AM
Let the record reflect that no one is calling Hartwig a super hero.

All they are saying is that a smart FO doesn't cut a guy when there is no proven back up on the roster to take his place.

A person would have to be stupid or stoned (or both) to do such a thing.

Let the record show,

- I am not saying cut him now. I am saying cut him after one or more of the young guys step up in camp.

- I feel sorry for those who have to retort to such lame attempted insults just to give their obviously sad lives some meaning. Get a hobby, besides wondering about me and my life/smoking habits.

pfelix73
05-01-2009, 12:08 PM
I see where you are coming from. Camp will determine who is doing what, obviously. However, we also can't assume that someone is going to take over any position anytime soon.

Sure, the rookie could be a huge surprise and step right in and win that RG spot- or not. If he does, then Stapleton can move over to C.

Personally, I'd like to see Shipley win the job, but probably won't happen from a wiley old vet like Hartwig. Shipley will get the chance to carry his gear up to the showers though.....

Maybe in 2010. We have our starting 5 in place.

:tt2