PDA

View Full Version : Why is Ryan Clark so disrespected?



SMASHMOUTHFOOTBALL
04-15-2009, 10:36 AM
I understand we need a backup for the S position; although I do believe Mundy is going to step in just fine, so I wouldn't have a urge to draft a S in the 1st 4 rnds.
If you go to nfldraftcountdown they have us selecting D. McBath S TTU and they are quoted to saying he can compete for the free safety job. Am I missing something--Clark is turning 30--its old but not that old--He should have another 3-4 solid years left in playing that position. He to me is the most underrated player on our team ( Ike gets no love either) I truly felt like Ike and Ryan should of made pro-bowl last year.
So what gives; how can you be a major nfl draft projecter and not know what you are talking about. I also have heard others say we need to draft a replacement for Clark who is in his last year but we need to resign the guy, he won't break the bank and does more for our team than most others could imagine.

IT ALL JUST MAKES ME SO ANGRY!!!!

steelz09
04-15-2009, 10:38 AM
agreed - I have really turned around on Clark. I think he's solid and is a very immportant piece to our D.

He is getting older but I don't think we draft a S within the first 4 rounds of this years draft.

RuthlessBurgher
04-15-2009, 10:43 AM
There are a lot of reasons why we may draft a safety that aren't about disrespecting Clark.

Troy Polamalu has a long injury history prior to last season.

Ryan Clark's contract is up after this season and there are several other guys that they will want to sign as well so there may not be enough for everyone (Miller, Starks, Colon, Keisel, Ward, Hampton, Reed, etc.)

Tyrone Carter is 33 years old.

Ryan Mundy was released in training camp after a high ankle sprain and was only on our practice squad since 11-11-08.

Anthony Smith is on the Green Bay Packers.

Oviedo
04-15-2009, 10:54 AM
There are a lot of reasons why we may draft a safety that aren't about disrespecting Clark.

Troy Polamalu has a long injury history prior to last season.

Ryan Clark's contract is up after this season and there are several other guys that they will want to sign as well so there may not be enough for everyone (Miller, Starks, Colon, Keisel, Ward, Hampton, Reed, etc.)

Tyrone Carter is 33 years old.

Ryan Mundy was released in training camp after a high ankle sprain and was only on our practice squad since 11-11-08.

Anthony Smith is on the Green Bay Packers.

I agree and I don't think drafting a safety is disrespect towards Clark. It is just a sound business strategy for shoring up a defensive secondray that isn't all that deep. If Mundy and Roy Lewis can perform the problem is far less. Just got to be prepared.

SteelHead
04-15-2009, 10:58 AM
Ryan Clark is definitely an unknown commodity in this league. I was reading a mock draft somewhere a few weeks back and they had us taking Sean Smith out of Utah at FS/SS in the 1st , stating that Clark was only "serviceable" at the position. I agree the FS/SS position on our team does need to be addressed this or next year at the latest but Ryan is rock solid for us right now. Plus Troy trusts him back there and he has said many times how important that is to him on the field. Remember when Hope left. Our depth at both safeties is paper thin.

SteelCzar76
04-15-2009, 11:02 AM
There are a lot of reasons why we may draft a safety that aren't about disrespecting Clark.

Troy Polamalu has a long injury history prior to last season.

Ryan Clark's contract is up after this season and there are several other guys that they will want to sign as well so there may not be enough for everyone (Miller, Starks, Colon, Keisel, Ward, Hampton, Reed, etc.)

Tyrone Carter is 33 years old.

Ryan Mundy was released in training camp after a high ankle sprain and was only on our practice squad since 11-11-08.

Anthony Smith is on the Green Bay Packers.


Good points Ruthless.(Though as i have always maintained, Troy is and remains the best in the game)

But,....the catch here (in terms of drafting a S) is,...this just so happens to be one of the poorest groups at the Safety position (Free and Strong) in years. And as such does the organization really want to draft any of these cats at any point ?

RuthlessBurgher
04-15-2009, 11:05 AM
There are a lot of reasons why we may draft a safety that aren't about disrespecting Clark.

Troy Polamalu has a long injury history prior to last season.

Ryan Clark's contract is up after this season and there are several other guys that they will want to sign as well so there may not be enough for everyone (Miller, Starks, Colon, Keisel, Ward, Hampton, Reed, etc.)

Tyrone Carter is 33 years old.

Ryan Mundy was released in training camp after a high ankle sprain and was only on our practice squad since 11-11-08.

Anthony Smith is on the Green Bay Packers.


Good points Ruthless.(Though as i have always maintained, Troy is and remains the best in the game)

But,....the catch here (in terms of drafting a S) is,...this just so happens to be one of the poorest groups at the Safety position (Free and Strong) in years. And as such does the organization really want to draft any of these cats at any point ?

I agree that Troy is the best safety in the game (suck on that, Ed Reed supporters! Where was Reed in the AFC Championship game anyway? Probably trying to hide from Hines Ward and James Harrison, I would guess). However, if he does go down with an injury (as he has been prone to do throughout his career) it ain't pretty behind him right now.

SteelCzar76
04-15-2009, 11:19 AM
There are a lot of reasons why we may draft a safety that aren't about disrespecting Clark.

Troy Polamalu has a long injury history prior to last season.

Ryan Clark's contract is up after this season and there are several other guys that they will want to sign as well so there may not be enough for everyone (Miller, Starks, Colon, Keisel, Ward, Hampton, Reed, etc.)

Tyrone Carter is 33 years old.

Ryan Mundy was released in training camp after a high ankle sprain and was only on our practice squad since 11-11-08.

Anthony Smith is on the Green Bay Packers.


Good points Ruthless.(Though as i have always maintained, Troy is and remains the best in the game)

But,....the catch here (in terms of drafting a S) is,...this just so happens to be one of the poorest groups at the Safety position (Free and Strong) in years. And as such does the organization really want to draft any of these cats at any point ?

I agree that Troy is the best safety in the game (suck on that, Ed Reed supporters! Where was Reed in the AFC Championship game anyway? Probably trying to hide from Hines Ward and James Harrison, I would guess). However, if he does go down with an injury (as he has been prone to do throughout his career) it ain't pretty behind him right now.


I most certainly feel you Ruthless,..but this years Safety Class "ain't much of a looker" either. :lol: Which (along with Smiths "release") leads me to believe that the Tomlin is relatively confident in Mundy ?

BradshawsHairdresser
04-15-2009, 11:36 AM
Well, I'll be the dissenting voice in this thread.

I like Ryan Clark. I think he's a character guy and a hard-worker. He was better for us than Anthony Smith.

I don't agree that he's at "all-pro" level, however. A couple of big hits during the season don't confer that status. His soon-to-expire contract is reason enough to look for his replacement...but I believe we could upgrade the position, finding someone better in coverage and run support.

RussBII
04-15-2009, 11:48 AM
Ryan Clark is definitely an unknown commodity in this league. I was reading a mock draft somewhere a few weeks back and they had us taking Sean Smith out of Utah at FS/SS in the 1st , stating that Clark was only "serviceable" at the position. I agree the FS/SS position on our team does need to be addressed this or next year at the latest but Ryan is rock solid for us right now. Plus Troy trusts him back there and he has said many times how important that is to him on the field. Remember when Hope left. Our depth at both safeties is paper thin.

Money. I think that's the biggest upside to Ryan Clark. That and the slobberknocker ability. I don't even care if he gets two or three 15 yard penalties on that this year. Folks should fear him... He hits harder than A.Smith ever did, and he's not a moron.

stlrz d
04-15-2009, 11:58 AM
Well, I'll be the dissenting voice in this thread.

I like Ryan Clark. I think he's a character guy and a hard-worker. He was better for us than Anthony Smith.

I don't agree that he's at "all-pro" level, however. A couple of big hits during the season don't confer that status. His soon-to-expire contract is reason enough to look for his replacement...but I believe we could upgrade the position, finding someone better in coverage and run support.

He's quite fine in those areas, and the fact that he stays home and honors his responsibilities is why Troy can do what he does.

Usually when you see Troy trying to chase down a WR from behind it's not because Troy blew the coverage, it's because he's trying to account for someone else's mistake. That didn't happen too often last season that I recall.

feltdizz
04-15-2009, 11:59 AM
Clark missed games because he hits so hard...

RuthlessBurgher
04-15-2009, 12:08 PM
Clark missed games because he hits so hard...

I don't recall that. The biggest chunk of games he missed was because Denver's altitude + sickle cell anemia = exploding spleen. As discussed on another thread, I'd imagine that he won't be traveling with us for the Bronco game this season, even though his spleen and gall bladder have been removed.

aggiebones
04-15-2009, 12:17 PM
We won't pay alot to the FS and when Clark's contract is up, he may be gone. So we'll need some competition there to replace him.
If we can sign him great, but too many other teams will pay alot to pluck a good Super Bowl champion while damaging our team in the process. The nature of the beast.

AngryAsian
04-15-2009, 01:52 PM
Well, I'll be the dissenting voice in this thread.

I like Ryan Clark. I think he's a character guy and a hard-worker. He was better for us than Anthony Smith.

I don't agree that he's at "all-pro" level, however. A couple of big hits during the season don't confer that status. His soon-to-expire contract is reason enough to look for his replacement...but I believe we could upgrade the position, finding someone better in coverage and run support.

He's quite fine in those areas, and the fact that he stays home and honors his responsibilities is why Troy can do what he does.

Usually when you see Troy trying to chase down a WR from behind it's not because Troy blew the coverage, it's because he's trying to account for someone else's mistake. That didn't happen too often last season that I recall.


BINGO!!! The reason Troy has been stellar is that we have such a rock in Clark at FS. Is he all-pro? No. But why do we have to have all-pro in both positions. Can someone please name me the last team that have ever produced to pro-bowl players in both the SS and FS positions in the same year, regardless of first or second string status. Clark is what this team needed in a FS, because Troy plays so unlike a typical SS. As for depth in the position, we surely need it. But I think we are very strong capable with our two starting horses and any "talk" about drafting for a safety this year is to beef up the subs behind our two studs. I love the way Clark plays the position and the laterality that he is able to give Troy so that Troy can be who he is... Clark contributes without asking to be "the guy." Yet another great FA acquisition of a high character guy.

SteelHoss
04-15-2009, 02:08 PM
Well, I'll be the dissenting voice in this thread.

I like Ryan Clark. I think he's a character guy and a hard-worker. He was better for us than Anthony Smith.

I don't agree that he's at "all-pro" level, however. A couple of big hits during the season don't confer that status. His soon-to-expire contract is reason enough to look for his replacement...but I believe we could upgrade the position, finding someone better in coverage and run support.

He's quite fine in those areas, and the fact that he stays home and honors his responsibilities is why Troy can do what he does.

Usually when you see Troy trying to chase down a WR from behind it's not because Troy blew the coverage, it's because he's trying to account for someone else's mistake. That didn't happen too often last season that I recall.


BINGO!!! The reason Troy has been stellar is that we have such a rock in Clark at FS. Is he all-pro? No. But why do we have to have all-pro in both positions. Can someone please name me the last team that have ever produced to pro-bowl players in both the SS and FS positions in the same year, regardless of first or second string status. Clark is what this team needed in a FS, because Troy plays so unlike a typical SS. As for depth in the position, we surely need it. But I think we are very strong capable with our two starting horses and any "talk" about drafting for a safety this year is to beef up the subs behind our two studs. I love the way Clark plays the position and the laterality that he is able to give Troy so that Troy can be who he is... Clark contributes without asking to be "the guy." Yet another great FA acquisition of a high character guy.


Very well said. :Bow

SteelHead
04-15-2009, 02:11 PM
It will be interesting to see what kind of attention he gets when he hits FA. I take him for the type to take a "hometown discount". Let's remember he is or will be , what 31 when that comes around and this is already his third team. From all his interviews and quotes he seems to really relish the atmosphere here and unlike say a Bryant McFadden he already knows that the grass is not always greener on the other side.

BradshawsHairdresser
04-15-2009, 05:27 PM
Clark is smart and disciplined, and that is why he has been successful. I admire him greatly for getting the most out of his ability.i

But how is it disrespecting him to recognize that he's getting older, his contract is drawing to an end, and we may soon draft a faster, more athletic player who will replace him in a year or so?

SMASHMOUTHFOOTBALL
04-15-2009, 07:27 PM
Clark is smart and disciplined, and that is why he has been successful. I admire him greatly for getting the most out of his ability.i

But how is it disrespecting him to recognize that he's getting older, his contract is drawing to an end, and we may soon draft a faster, more athletic player who will replace him in a year or so?

Did you not read my post? I am not saying he is being disrespected by the Steelers and for those reasons. I am saying some so called experts are saying we should draft a rook and he can compete for Clarks job this season. Plus we have bigger needs this year unless a S just falls in our laps in rounds 1-4, we can wait.

Captain Lemming
04-16-2009, 08:33 AM
A couple of big hits during the season don't confer that status. His soon-to-expire contract is reason enough to look for his replacement...but I believe we could upgrade the position, finding someone better in coverage and run support.
Run support?
Do you even know what Secondary player had the most tackles?
Hint. He is a safety and it wasnt Troy.
Only the two James LBers had more tackles than Clarke who was third on a great defense.

Our "Free" safety had over TWICE the tackles as the softie ALLPro in Baltimore. Reed is a ballHawk without Peer, but he does not support the run Nearly as well as Clark does.

"A couple of big hits" do not result in nearly 90 tackles.

In pass defense its true Clark doesn't get many picks.

However, considering he is the last line of defense, on a defense which allows Troy to attack the backfield with regularity, the fact that we gave up so few long passes against some of the leagues most prolific passers on last years schedule, tells me Clark was very effective in coverage.

He is invisible in coverage because he is rarely attacked.

Troy is the best in the league, but whenever you see a Steeler safety fooled out of position and end up trailing somebody, usually it is Troy. Clark has Someone blanketed so nobody notices him. Half the time Clark has to come over and stop the TD.

A rookie must be more talented true.
But experienced, cerebral and safe, Clark is the ideal match for the whirlwind of chaos that Troy creates.

Oviedo
04-16-2009, 09:25 AM
A couple of big hits during the season don't confer that status. His soon-to-expire contract is reason enough to look for his replacement...but I believe we could upgrade the position, finding someone better in coverage and run support.
Run support?
Do you even know what Secondary player had the most tackles?
Hint. He is a safety and it wasnt Troy.
Only the two James LBers had more tackles than Clarke who was third on a great defense.

Our "Free" safety had over TWICE the tackles as the softie ALLPro in Baltimore. Reed is a ballHawk without Peer, but he does not support the run Nearly as well as Clark does.

"A couple of big hits" do not result in nearly 90 tackles.

In pass defense its true Clark doesn't get many picks.

However, considering he is the last line of defense, on a defense which allows Troy to attack the backfield with regularity, the fact that we gave up so few long passes against some of the leagues most prolific passers on last years schedule, tells me Clark was very effective in coverage.

He is invisible in coverage because he is rarely attacked.

Troy is the best in the league, but whenever you see a Steeler safety fooled out of position and end up trailing somebody, usually it is Troy. Clark has Someone blanketed so nobody notices him. Half the time Clark has to come over and stop the TD.

A rookie must be more talented true.
But experienced, cerebral and safe, Clark is the ideal match for the whirlwind of chaos that Troy creates.

Great points. The reason we don't notice Clark is because he rearely does anything wrong. If a DB isn't getting noticed, particularly a FS, it is because he is doing everything right.

You bring up an excellent point in Clark's tackling/hitting ability. He is actually a better tackler than Troy and he hits harder. Troy is just a "freak" when it comes to how quickly he can react and the body control he has to make plays.

I'd like to see Clark stay but only at a cap friendly price. The fact is 31 year old DBs, especially Safeties, don't typically get big free agent contracts so it is possible we can keep him.

BradshawsHairdresser
04-16-2009, 03:27 PM
A couple of big hits during the season don't confer that status. His soon-to-expire contract is reason enough to look for his replacement...but I believe we could upgrade the position, finding someone better in coverage and run support.
Run support?
Do you even know what Secondary player had the most tackles?
Hint. He is a safety and it wasnt Troy.
Only the two James LBers had more tackles than Clarke who was third on a great defense.

Our "Free" safety had over TWICE the tackles as the softie ALLPro in Baltimore. Reed is a ballHawk without Peer, but he does not support the run Nearly as well as Clark does.

"A couple of big hits" do not result in nearly 90 tackles.

In pass defense its true Clark doesn't get many picks.

However, considering he is the last line of defense, on a defense which allows Troy to attack the backfield with regularity, the fact that we gave up so few long passes against some of the leagues most prolific passers on last years schedule, tells me Clark was very effective in coverage.

He is invisible in coverage because he is rarely attacked.

Troy is the best in the league, but whenever you see a Steeler safety fooled out of position and end up trailing somebody, usually it is Troy. Clark has Someone blanketed so nobody notices him. Half the time Clark has to come over and stop the TD.

A rookie must be more talented true.
But experienced, cerebral and safe, Clark is the ideal match for the whirlwind of chaos that Troy creates.


Clark is a heady player, and it's true he doesn't make many mental mistakes. But you're saying he hardly ever gets beat in coverage??? If he is as good as you say, he should be all-pro and will command huge money when his contract expires next year.

The fact that Clark is a better tackler than Troy does not mean Clark is one of the best...Troy is often undisciplined with his tackles--it's easily one of the weakest aspects of his game. You say Clark garnered 90 tackles? Try 50, with 35 assists (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... t/2008.htm (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2008.htm)). 50 isn't bad at all, but how many of those were in run support? How many were guys that had beaten him in coverage? The stats don't give the answer to that. A few years ago, Ike had a large number of tackles, but it was pointed out that many of those were on players that had beaten him on a route. How many times does Clark get tooled, or run over, on a tackle attempt?

Don't misunderstand. I think Clark has been a good complementary player for this team. But we have 10 players entering the final year of their contract...we are not going to be able to sign them all. So if we get a chance to upgrade from a 31-year old, 185-pound, injury-prone free safety to a bigger, stronger, faster and more athletic youngster who is just as bright, we ought to jump on it. Again, I don't see how is disrespects Clark to say that.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
04-16-2009, 08:35 PM
I wouldn't say that Clark gets disrespected as much as he gets overlooked. But not by me. I used to get into many arguments over on the Trib board when I'd prop him up - and I am not usually one to get into those pointless circular arguments on the boards.

From the time he arrived in Pittsburgh to replace Hope I thought that he was a great player for this system. I liked him, and defended him, from the first time I saw him.

After the '06 season, most posters had him being replaced by Anthony Smith heading into '07. We all talk about the loss of Aaron Smith and how that affected our D.....and rightfully so. However, Clark was also missing and I think that he also had a lot to do with the defensive collapse.

Clark is underappreciated as a vital cog who just does his job on a defense full of stars.

Captain Lemming
04-17-2009, 02:19 AM
Clark is a heady player, and it's true he doesn't make many mental mistakes. But you're saying he hardly ever gets beat in coverage??? If he is as good as you say, he should be all-pro and will command huge money when his contract expires next year.


In case you missed it, the whole point of this thread, my post included is that Clark is "underrated".
If he were an "All Pro" he would not be "underrated" now would he? :HeadBanger


The fact that Clark is a better tackler than Troy does not mean Clark is one of the best...Troy is often undisciplined with his tackles--it's easily one of the weakest aspects of his game.


You say Clark garnered 90 tackles? Try 50, with 35 assists (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... t/2008.htm (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2008.htm)).
Do you really think I meant 90 "solo" tackles? That is absurd. When talking about Harrisons great season how many times do you read the dude had 100 or 101 tackles with 16 sacks. Dont act like you didn't know what I was saying.

BTW I said Clark had "nearly" 90 tackles.
87 by my source:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/p ... yerId=4301 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=4301)


50 isn't bad at all, but how many of those were in run support? How many were guys that had beaten him in coverage? The stats don't give the answer to that.

A few years ago, Ike had a large number of tackles, but it was pointed out that many of those were on players that had beaten him on a route. How many times does Clark get tooled, or run over, on a tackle attempt?

These stats answer that one:

The Steelers allowed fewer big plays (20 yards or longer) than any team in the league. They ranked No. 1 in 20-yard runs (4), 20-yard passes (23) and 40-yard passes (2) and tied for second in fewest 40-yard runs (1).

The above stats are a direct result of a secondary that is without peer in run support. Runners dont get loose against our secondary.
Clark is the top tackler in the best run defending secondary in the league. And yes Ike is one of the leagues best run defending corners.


Don't misunderstand. I think Clark has been a good complementary player for this team. But we have 10 players entering the final year of their contract...we are not going to be able to sign them all.

No argument.


So if we get a chance to upgrade from a 31-year old, 185-pound, injury-prone free safety to a bigger, stronger, faster and more athletic youngster who is just as bright, we ought to jump on it. Again, I don't see how is disrespects Clark to say that.
No rookie will be "just as bright" for lack of game savvy.
We already drafted the "Bigger, Stronger, faster." His name is Anthony, and he couldn't come close to replacing Clark.

Frankly I got no beef with drafting a safety at some point to groom to be Clarks replacement. Mundy might be that guy already.

But to imagine that Clarks level of play can be replaced by a kid, aint gonna happen

BradshawsHairdresser
04-17-2009, 11:50 AM
Clark is a heady player, and it's true he doesn't make many mental mistakes. But you're saying he hardly ever gets beat in coverage??? If he is as good as you say, he should be all-pro and will command huge money when his contract expires next year.


In case you missed it, the whole point of this thread, my post included is that Clark is "underrated".
If he were an "All Pro" he would not be "underrated" now would he? :HeadBanger

No, the point of this thread is that Clark is DISRESPECTED. Did you read the title?



The fact that Clark is a better tackler than Troy does not mean Clark is one of the best...Troy is often undisciplined with his tackles--it's easily one of the weakest aspects of his game.


You say Clark garnered 90 tackles? Try 50, with 35 assists (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... t/2008.htm (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2008.htm)).
Do you really think I meant 90 "solo" tackles? That is absurd. When talking about Harrisons great season how many times do you read the dude had 100 or 101 tackles with 16 sacks. Dont act like you didn't know what I was saying.

BTW I said Clark had "nearly" 90 tackles.
87 by my source:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/p ... yerId=4301 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=4301)[/quote:26l1vn2e]

Again, this is an area where statistics can skew reality. 35-37 "assisted" tackles can mean anything from getting a hand on to being primarily responsible for the tackle. BTW, you said Clark led our secondary in tackles, but Pola had more solo tackles than Clark...conveniently overlooked by the statistics you cited.



[quote]50 isn't bad at all, but how many of those were in run support? How many were guys that had beaten him in coverage? The stats don't give the answer to that.

A few years ago, Ike had a large number of tackles, but it was pointed out that many of those were on players that had beaten him on a route. How many times does Clark get tooled, or run over, on a tackle attempt?

These stats answer that one:

The Steelers allowed fewer big plays (20 yards or longer) than any team in the league. They ranked No. 1 in 20-yard runs (4), 20-yard passes (23) and 40-yard passes (2) and tied for second in fewest 40-yard runs (1).

The above stats are a direct result of a secondary that is without peer in run support. Runners dont get loose against our secondary.
Clark is the top tackler in the best run defending secondary in the league. And yes Ike is one of the leagues best run defending corners.

Clark is PART of the best run defending secondary in the league. That's a key statement. Your argument is based on TEAM statistics. Put him back there with some different mates and you may not be able to make the same argument.


[quote]Don't misunderstand. I think Clark has been a good complementary player for this team. But we have 10 players entering the final year of their contract...we are not going to be able to sign them all.

No argument.


So if we get a chance to upgrade from a 31-year old, 185-pound, injury-prone free safety to a bigger, stronger, faster and more athletic youngster who is just as bright, we ought to jump on it. Again, I don't see how is disrespects Clark to say that.
No rookie will be "just as bright" for lack of game savvy.
We already drafted the "Bigger, Stronger, faster." His name is Anthony, and he couldn't come close to replacing Clark.

Frankly I got no beef with drafting a safety at some point to groom to be Clarks replacement. Mundy might be that guy already.

But to imagine that Clarks level of play can be replaced by a kid, aint gonna happen[/quote:26l1vn2e]

Not immediately. That's why you draft a rookie this year who can learn behind him on the bench for a season.


The weakest part of your argument is that Clark provides blanket pass coverage. He has gotten the most out of his ability because of his discipline and smarts, but he is prone to problems with bigger, faster receivers.

stlrz d
04-17-2009, 12:42 PM
Again, this is an area where statistics can skew reality. 35-37 "assisted" tackles can mean anything from getting a hand on to being primarily responsible for the tackle. BTW, you said Clark led our secondary in tackles, but Pola had more solo tackles than Clark...conveniently overlooked by the statistics you cited.

He should...he's a strong safety.


Clark is PART of the best run defending secondary in the league. That's a key statement. Your argument is based on TEAM statistics. Put him back there with some different mates and you may not be able to make the same argument.


That's a chicken/egg argument there. Does Clark make the secondary better or do the other members make Clark better? There's no way to prove that unless you try different combinations. That's not going to happen.

The bottom line is our secondary is very good and Clark is part of that. We all saw what happened when he was lost for the season...it wasn't good.

BradshawsHairdresser
04-17-2009, 03:03 PM
Again, this is an area where statistics can skew reality. 35-37 "assisted" tackles can mean anything from getting a hand on to being primarily responsible for the tackle. BTW, you said Clark led our secondary in tackles, but Pola had more solo tackles than Clark...conveniently overlooked by the statistics you cited.

He should...he's a strong safety.

I agree. But I was responding to the OP who said that Clark was the leading tackler in our secondary.



Clark is PART of the best run defending secondary in the league. That's a key statement. Your argument is based on TEAM statistics. Put him back there with some different mates and you may not be able to make the same argument.


That's a chicken/egg argument there. Does Clark make the secondary better or do the other members make Clark better? There's no way to prove that unless you try different combinations. That's not going to happen.

The bottom line is our secondary is very good and Clark is part of that. We all saw what happened when he was lost for the season...it wasn't good.

Again, I agree...Clark was better than Anthony Smith. But is it disrespecting Clark to argue that when his contract expires, we ought to replace him with a younger player who is a better overall player? I don't think so.

Maybe I'm guilty of underrating Clark somewhat...but I think many on this board are overrating him because they can only see him through "homer lenses." Same kind of sentiment I found among many Steelers fans when we parted with Joey Porter--"Oh, the sky is falling, and our defense will be damaged beyond repair!" Was Joey good for us?
Undoubtedly. Did it hurt us to cut him loose and replace him with James Harrison? Not at all. In fact, our defense improved. Why not draft a very good FS prospect if we get the opportunity, and let him learn behind Clark for a year? If he doesn't show anything by the end of this season, we can try to re-sign Clark...but with 10 players entering the final year of their contract, FS seems to be as good a position for a change as any.

BTW, I'd like to see the Steelers draft a DT who might replace Casey Hampton. Does that mean I'm disrespecting Casey? I'd like to see a DE drafted to perhaps replace Keisel. Does that mean I'm disrespecting Keisel? If Hines wants the moon to stay on this team, I'd like to see Sweed or someone else step up and replace him. So I guess I'm disrespecting Hines? At some point, you have to look for younger and better, or you deteriorate.

Oviedo
04-17-2009, 03:27 PM
Sooner or later we have to from a total roster standpoint get younger and less expensive. The only way that happens is phasing out players on the backside of their careers who make more money. That is not disrespect, that is living within the limitation of a business model that operates under a salary cap. It also means that there are some valuable contributors who are good players you have to replace sooner than you may want to.

Clark falls into that catgory. It would be great to keep him for 2-3 more years but it probably won't be feasible at a salary greater than he is making now. He will undoubtably be looking for more money since it will be the last contract of his career. Just the way it works. Not disrespect, just business.

BradshawsHairdresser
04-17-2009, 07:05 PM
Sooner or later we have to from a total roster standpoint get younger and less expensive. The only way that happens is phasing out players on the backside of their careers who make more money. That is not disrespect, that is living within the limitation of a business model that operates under a salary cap. It also means that there are some valuable contributors who are good players you have to replace sooner than you may want to.

Clark falls into that catgory. It would be great to keep him for 2-3 more years but it probably won't be feasible at a salary greater than he is making now. He will undoubtably be looking for more money since it will be the last contract of his career. Just the way it works. Not disrespect, just business.

$$$$$$$$$$$$

Steelerphile
04-18-2009, 10:45 AM
I guess I am not the type of guy that sees Ryan Clark as an all-pro safety. I don't think he has all the coverage and ball skills that he is being given credit for. Ryan Clark has a career total of 5 interceptions and 9 return yards in a 7-year career.

These are not the type of numbers that strike fear into QBs and offensive coordinators. So, if someone asserts that passers are afraid to throw against Ryan Clark, I think that is somewhat amusing. Why would they be afraid? QBs are afraid to pass against DBS who might pick the ball off and then do something with it. Someone like Rob Woodson who has 71 career ints and over 1,400 return yards or even Mike Wagner who has 36 career ints and about 500 return yards,

Clark is given credit for limiting offenses to small numbers of plays over 40 and 20 yards. I don't give Clark all the credit for those stats personally. I think the pass rush the Steelers generated had the most to do with it and the other DBS in the secondary all had more passes defensed than Clark in 2008, who had six and 1 INT.

People say he is so much better than Anthony Smith was, but this is not true either, because the Steeler defense was number 1 or close to it when Anthony Smith played a lot. Anthony Smith did not so much have a bad season as a bad game against NE, which carried over to the next week against Jacksonville. A more mature A Smith still might be a good player, but he needed a fresh start because the NE debacle was being held against him in PGH.

Randy Moss would have lit Ryan Clark up in the NE game in 2008 but there was a cold downpour and Moss dropped three passes right in his hands in which he had Clark beaten. And Matt Cassell was playing QB.

Clark is a spiritual man and I think that he was so thankful and felt so blessed to be able to play this year, that he really brought it to the best of his ability in 2008 and he was in on a lot of tackles. He was an asset to the defense, but not an all-pro IMO.

I think there still might be lingering effects from the removal of his spleen and pancreas. There were times when he made tackles and appeared to take a blow in the torso area near where these organs were removed. He would lay and the field and seem to be distressed. That is why I think he started tackling by leaving his feet and lauching his head and shoulder at players, in order to not receive a blow in his torso. I also think that is a dangerous way to tackle.

Somehow the Steelers have maintained a highly ranked defense with or without Ryan Clark. I think Ryan Mundy looks like a prospect but we shall see. Personally I think most safeties have better ball skills than Clark. Just my opinion. But Clark is a great guy and great teammate and an inspiration to us all.

Oviedo
04-18-2009, 10:56 AM
I guess I am not the type of guy that sees Ryan Clark as an all-pro safety. I don't think he has all the coverage and ball skills that he is being given credit for. Ryan Clark has a career total of 5 interceptions and 9 return yards in a 7-year career.

These are not the type of numbers that strike fear into QBs and offensive coordinators. So, if someone asserts that passers are afraid to throw against Ryan Clark, I think that is somewhat amusing. Why would they be afraid? QBs are afraid to pass against DBS who might pick the ball off and then do something with it. Someone like Rob Woodson who has 71 career ints and over 1,400 return yards or even Mike Wagner who has 36 career ints and about 500 return yards,

Clark is given credit for limiting offenses to small numbers of plays over 40 and 20 yards. I don't give Clark all the credit for those stats personally. I think the pass rush the Steelers generated had the most to do with it and the other DBS in the secondary all had more passes defensed than Clark in 2008, who had six and 1 INT.

People say he is so much better than Anthony Smith was, but this is not true either, because the Steeler defense was number 1 or close to it when Anthony Smith played a lot. Anthony Smith did not so much have a bad season as a bad game against NE, which carried over to the next week against Jacksonville. A more mature A Smith still might be a good player, but he needed a fresh start because the NE debacle was being held against him in PGH.

Randy Moss would have lit Ryan Clark up in the NE game in 2008 but there was a cold downpour and Moss dropped three passes right in his hands in which he had Clark beaten. And Matt Cassell was playing QB.

Clark is a spiritual man and I think that he was so thankful and felt so blessed to be able to play this year, that he really brought it to the best of his ability in 2008 and he was in on a lot of tackles. He was an asset to the defense, but not an all-pro IMO.

I think there still might be lingering effects from the removal of his spleen and pancreas. There were times when he made tackles and appeared to take a blow in the torso area near where these organs were removed. He would lay and the field and seem to be distressed. That is why I think he started tackling by leaving his feet and lauching his head and shoulder at players, in order to not receive a blow in his torso. I also think that is a dangerous way to tackle.

Somehow the Steelers have maintained a highly ranked defense with or without Ryan Clark. I think Ryan Mundy looks like a prospect but we shall see. Personally I think most safeties have better ball skills than Clark. Just my opinion. But Clark is a great guy and great teammate and an inspiration to us all.

Being an All Pro is meaningless. Every year we see undeserving players with that monicker. A team is about the sum of the parts being greater than any single part. That is what Clark is. He does what he is asked very well within the scheme we employ. His stats are meaningless because our defense is designed to have the priorities of stop the run first, sack the QB and prevent him from throwing the ball and lastly intercept the ball if thrown. Stats are for fantasy football not real football and Clark is just right for what we ask him to do.

RuthlessBurgher
04-18-2009, 11:03 AM
People say he is so much better than Anthony Smith was, but this is not true either, because the Steeler defense was number 1 or close to it when Anthony Smith played a lot. Anthony Smith did not so much have a bad season as a bad game against NE, which carried over to the next week against Jacksonville. A more mature A Smith still might be a good player, but he needed a fresh start because the NE debacle was being held against him in PGH.

It wasn't just the New England game where Anthony Smith struggled. The Steelers lost 3 of their last 4 that year, giving up 34, 29, 24, and 27 points in those games. The defense was very good early in that season, and painfully mediocre down the stretch. The loss of Aaron Smith probably had more to do with it than the loss of Ryan Clark, but I don't think we should shortchange the effect that the loss of Clark had on the team.

Steelerphile
04-18-2009, 11:13 AM
I guess I am not the type of guy that sees Ryan Clark as an all-pro safety. I don't think he has all the coverage and ball skills that he is being given credit for. Ryan Clark has a career total of 5 interceptions and 9 return yards in a 7-year career.

These are not the type of numbers that strike fear into QBs and offensive coordinators. So, if someone asserts that passers are afraid to throw against Ryan Clark, I think that is somewhat amusing. Why would they be afraid? QBs are afraid to pass against DBS who might pick the ball off and then do something with it. Someone like Rob Woodson who has 71 career ints and over 1,400 return yards or even Mike Wagner who has 36 career ints and about 500 return yards,

Clark is given credit for limiting offenses to small numbers of plays over 40 and 20 yards. I don't give Clark all the credit for those stats personally. I think the pass rush the Steelers generated had the most to do with it and the other DBS in the secondary all had more passes defensed than Clark in 2008, who had six and 1 INT.

People say he is so much better than Anthony Smith was, but this is not true either, because the Steeler defense was number 1 or close to it when Anthony Smith played a lot. Anthony Smith did not so much have a bad season as a bad game against NE, which carried over to the next week against Jacksonville. A more mature A Smith still might be a good player, but he needed a fresh start because the NE debacle was being held against him in PGH.

Randy Moss would have lit Ryan Clark up in the NE game in 2008 but there was a cold downpour and Moss dropped three passes right in his hands in which he had Clark beaten. And Matt Cassell was playing QB.

Clark is a spiritual man and I think that he was so thankful and felt so blessed to be able to play this year, that he really brought it to the best of his ability in 2008 and he was in on a lot of tackles. He was an asset to the defense, but not an all-pro IMO.

I think there still might be lingering effects from the removal of his spleen and pancreas. There were times when he made tackles and appeared to take a blow in the torso area near where these organs were removed. He would lay and the field and seem to be distressed. That is why I think he started tackling by leaving his feet and lauching his head and shoulder at players, in order to not receive a blow in his torso. I also think that is a dangerous way to tackle.

Somehow the Steelers have maintained a highly ranked defense with or without Ryan Clark. I think Ryan Mundy looks like a prospect but we shall see. Personally I think most safeties have better ball skills than Clark. Just my opinion. But Clark is a great guy and great teammate and an inspiration to us all.

Being an All Pro is meaningless. Every year we see undeserving players with that monicker. A team is about the sum of the parts being greater than any single part. That is what Clark is. He does what he is asked very well within the scheme we employ. His stats are meaningless because our defense is designed to have the priorities of stop the run first, sack the QB and prevent him from throwing the ball and lastly intercept the ball if thrown. Stats are for fantasy football not real football and Clark is just right for what we ask him to do.

The number of interceptions and pass defenses a player gets is an indication of his abilities. Clark did what he was asked to do but if you are suggesting that Ryan Clark is irreplacable, then I would disagree. he is a part of the defense and if he weren't there, someone else would do his job, maybe as well and possibly better.

Steelerphile
04-18-2009, 11:18 AM
People say he is so much better than Anthony Smith was, but this is not true either, because the Steeler defense was number 1 or close to it when Anthony Smith played a lot. Anthony Smith did not so much have a bad season as a bad game against NE, which carried over to the next week against Jacksonville. A more mature A Smith still might be a good player, but he needed a fresh start because the NE debacle was being held against him in PGH.

It wasn't just the New England game where Anthony Smith struggled. The Steelers lost 3 of their last 4 that year, giving up 34, 29, 24, and 27 points in those games. The defense was very good early in that season, and painfully mediocre down the stretch. The loss of Aaron Smith probably had more to do with it than the loss of Ryan Clark, but I don't think we should shortchange the effect that the loss of Clark had on the team.

Anthony Smith sat down after the Jacksonville game and Carter started. So all the blame cannot go to Smith. Personally I think the loss of Aaron Smith was more impactful and like the players were saying, the whole team wilted somewhat. Some said first year coach Tomlin was so tough on them that they had no legs left in the last part of the year. He eased up a bit his second season and they were better down the stretch. So you can say Clark would have made a great difference then, but I am not so sure he would have.

stlrz d
04-18-2009, 12:53 PM
Dude, individual stats don't tell the whole story.

Also, that bit about Clark avoiding contact with his torso is ridiculous. Once those organs are gone and the wounds healed there is no more pain from getting hit in the torso without them than there would be with them. No more sensitivity either. I know this for a fact...my spleen was removed in 1984.

RuthlessBurgher
04-18-2009, 02:20 PM
Dude, individual stats don't tell the whole story.

Also, that bit about Clark avoiding contact with his torso is ridiculous. Once those organs are gone and the wounds healed there is no more pain from getting hit in the torso without them than there would be with them. No more sensitivity either. I know this for a fact...my spleen was removed in 1984.

If stlrz_d makes it to the PlanetSteeler tailgate, I am going to sucker punch him in the gut to see if there is no pain from getting hit in the torso where his spleen used to be. :P

stlrz d
04-18-2009, 09:02 PM
Dude, individual stats don't tell the whole story.

Also, that bit about Clark avoiding contact with his torso is ridiculous. Once those organs are gone and the wounds healed there is no more pain from getting hit in the torso without them than there would be with them. No more sensitivity either. I know this for a fact...my spleen was removed in 1984.

If stlrz_d makes it to the PlanetSteeler tailgate, I am going to sucker punch him in the gut to see if there is no pain from getting hit in the torso where his spleen used to be. :P

A sucker punch is how I ended up losing the spleen in the first place!

Captain Lemming
04-19-2009, 03:33 AM
No, the point of this thread is that Clark is DISRESPECTED. Did you read the title?
Yes, the title says he is disrespected. The author of the original post explained the fact that he is disrespected because he is UNDERRATED. While we are at it lets take a look at the first post:

"I understand we need a backup for the S position; although I do believe Mundy is going to step in just fine, so I wouldn't have a urge to draft a S in the 1st 4 rnds.
If you go to nfldraftcountdown they have us selecting D. McBath S TTU and they are quoted to saying he can compete for the free safety job. Am I missing something--Clark is turning 30--its old but not that old--He should have another 3-4 solid years left in playing that position. He to me is the most underrated player on our team ( Ike gets no love either) I truly felt like Ike and Ryan should of made pro-bowl last year.
So what gives; how can you be a major nfl draft projecter and not know what you are talking about. I also have heard others say we need to draft a replacement for Clark who is in his last year but we need to resign the guy, he won't break the bank and does more for our team than most others could imagine."

Look closely at it. Nobody is arguing that simply drafting a safety is disrespecting anybody. Acting like free safety is a weakness that is worthy of a first round pick over our real needs on the oline and dline shows that the writer has no clue how good Clark is. He is underating an excellent player.

You came in and said the comment about "a couple of big hits" and sounded just like the writer.

I gave statistics to back up the my agreement with the original post.



Again, this is an area where statistics can skew reality. 35-37 "assisted" tackles can mean anything from getting a hand on to being primarily responsible for the tackle. BTW, you said Clark led our secondary in tackles, but Pola had more solo tackles than Clark...conveniently overlooked by the statistics you cited.

"Conveniently overlooked?"
Nearly every listing of defensive players "by tackles" lists Clark ahead of Troy, because they sort based on total tackles, INCLUDING THE LIST YOU REFERENCED. Clark had the most tackles of anybody in the secondary. You can make a case for the relative value of solo versus total tackles, but dont act like I made up that standard.


Clark is PART of the best run defending secondary in the league. That's a key statement. Your argument is based on TEAM statistics.

But you said yourself Ike was an overrated tackler and Clark is a better tackler than Troy. Sounds like you've made a pretty good case for Clarks value as a run defender.


Put him back there with some different mates and you may not be able to make the same argument.

You can speculate all you want. But you know what has been proven beyond a doubt? Troys game tanks big time when Clark is out. We have actually seen that :D


Not immediately. That's why you draft a rookie this year who can learn behind him on the bench for a season.

Honestly dude I dont disagree with this, except I would give it "a couple" of seasons. I am not saying he should be an AllPro, borderline probowl backup type is how I see him. He doesnt make a lot of splash plays, which is a limitation. At the same time doesnt allow lot of big plays to be made on him. He is very good, and as I said in my first post an ideal partner for Troy. They complement each other perfectly.


The weakest part of your argument is that Clark provides blanket pass coverage. He has gotten the most out of his ability because of his discipline and smarts, but he is prone to problems with bigger, faster receivers.

I really think you believe what you are saying but havent even thought it through. He is not big, not a blazer. Of course he struggles agains big fast receivers right?

Be specific.
Please tell the class the long list of big fast receivers who "give him problems".
If those darn Cardinals had any good receivers I could make my case using the SB as an example. :wink: