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NorthCoast
03-01-2009, 07:55 PM
Without Question, Carson Palmer Is a Better Quarterback than Ben Roethlisberger

by Ryan Michael
[url]http://bleacherreport.com/articles/125548-without-question-carson-palmer-is-a-better-quarterback-then-ben-roethlisberger[/url

After Ben Roethlisberger won Super Bowl XLIII this year, many have began to believe that he is one of the best quarterbacks in professional football.

If people don't feel that he's better then Peyton Manning or Tom Brady, they most certainly would feel that Big Ben is better then his division rival Carson Palmer.

Strange how quickly we forget, how little it takes for one football player to be forgotten and another to be revered.

In the case of Carson Palmer versus Ben Roethlisberger, I personally feel that the choice is obvious.

Many people would lead you to believe that Ben Roethlisberger is the better quarterback and the success he achieved this year is bound to only help the momentum of that argument.

With that being said, let's take a closer look at the two quarterbacks to see if we can reach a more accurate conclusion.

I will begin by posting the career statistics for both quarterbacks.

Since they both began playing in the NFL in 2004, it should prove to be relatively easy to compare and contrast their success.

Ben Roethlisberger (2004-2008): 1,189 of 1,905 (62.4 percent) for 14,974 yards, 101 touchdowns and 69 interceptions. QB Rating: 89.4.

Carson Palmer (2004-2008): 1,380 of 2,165 (63.7 percent) for 15,630 yards, 107 TD's and 67 interceptions. QB Rating: 88.9.

Keep in mind; Carson Palmer only played 65 games during that span where Ben Roethlisberger played 72 games.

With that being said, a few things become clear when looking at those statistics:

· Carson Palmer has a higher completion percentage.

· Carson Palmer has thrown for more yards.

· Carson Palmer has thrown more touchdown passes.

· Carson Palmer has thrown fewer interceptions.

The one curious thing that might stand out from all of that is to notice that despite Palmer's superiority in all of the above-mentioned categories, Ben Roethlisberger still has a higher quarterback rating.

This is due to the fact that Roethlisberger averages 7.9-yards per pass where as Palmer averages 7.2-yards per pass.

So, if Palmer beats out Ben Roethlisberger in virtually every passing category, why is it that many still feel that Roethlisberger is the better quarterback?

Unfortunately, the answer is painfully obvious.

During the course of Ben Roethlisberger's five-year career, he has managed to gather an impressive winning record.

His career win/lose record is 59-22 including going 8-2 in the postseason.

The two Super Bowls he has won during that time span might prove to be the biggest factor in his defense.

Carson Palmer on the other hand has a win-lose record of 32-33, thus leading many people to clearly identify superiority with the quarterback who has the more impressive winning record.

I can say that Ben Roethlisberger certainly deserves a share of the credit for helping the Steelers win as many games as they have, but does that really mean that Carson Palmer isn't just as good?

Many would say that question is ridiculous and all I would have to do is look at their win-loss records to be able to clearly see who the better quarterback is.

Now that we have taken a look at the individual statistics and winning records, lets take a look at the support each quarterback has been getting from his teammates during that period of time.

I'll begin with the running game.

Obviously the more support the quarterback is getting on the ground will make it easier for him to throw by now being part of a balanced attack.

Essentially, the better your running game is, the less pressure there is on the pass and the easier it becomes to throw the football because the defense is being kept honest.

Here are the rushing totals of both the Pittsburgh Steelers and Cincinnati Bengals between the years of 2004 and 2008.

Pittsburgh Steelers (2004-2008): 10,537 total team-rushing yards, an average of 2,107 rushing yards per season.

Cincinnati Bengals (2004-2008): 8,455 total team-rushing yards, an average of 1,691 rushing yards per season.

During the five years that both quarterbacks have been active, the Steelers have had a significant advantage in the running game. They've averaged 416 more rushing yards per season then the Bengals.

The result of such means Ben Roethlisberger has had more backing from the running game to help balance the passing attack.

This meant the defenses had to expect a potent running game as well as the Steelers' passing attack when playing against Roethlisberger.

On the other side, Carson Palmer was not getting the same backing from his running game.

This meant defenses knew he was more inclined to have to pass to succeed and were able to cover the passing game more aggressively.

What we have here is Carson Palmer having a higher completion percentage, throwing for more yards, more touchdowns, and less interceptions even though there was more pressure on him to throw the football.

The numbers are quite remarkable when looking at them under that context.

It would also only be fair to look at the backing both quarterbacks had in other areas of the offense as well.

I'll begin with the offensive line.
Since, Ben Roethlisberger has been sacked 192 times and Carson Palmer has been sacked 108 times, this would lead many to believe that the Bengals had a better offensive line then the Steelers.

I wouldn't say this to be true.

Palmer is a pocket-passer who usually remains in the pocket.

Roethlisberger likes to move around more and create more plays. Often times he succeeds but that also results in more sacks from time to time.

Unless you’re a Bengals fan, you'd be hard pressed to be able to name a single offensive lineman besides Willie Anderson.

The Steelers always have more offensive lineman going to the Pro Bowl and they blatantly have an offensive line that makes room for more rushing yards.

Clearly, I'd say that the Steelers have had the better offensive line.

Now, we have the Wide Receivers. Cincinnati has become known for their star players, Chad Ocho Cinco and T.J. Houshmandzadeh—it would become easy to assume that Carson has had the better weapons to throw to.

Let's take a closer look.

Who do you feel is better? Chad Ocho Cinco or Hines Ward?

I'd be inclined to give the advantage to Ocho Cinco, but Ward is a heck of player himself who actually knows how to block.

It might not seem like much, but that does help on the plays when Roethlisberger isn't calling his number.

Then you have T.J. Houshmandzadeh.

Most people feel he is one of the better threats in the game but he's only eclipsed the 1,000-yard mark twice in his eight-year career.

He's only eclipsed the 10-touchdown mark once in his eight-year career.

Although, he has been a reliable receiver, he's been far from a Superstar.

That being said, is he that much better then Santonio Holmes?

Could you name a single Tight End Carson Palmer has thrown too?

Most people can't either although many are familiar with Heath Miller.

My point is Palmer wasn't throwing to many caliber receivers beyond Chad Ocho Cinco and T.J. Houshmandzadeh.

Even when looking at the receiving corps, I don't think Carson Palmer has had too much of an advantage their either.

Now, that we've covered the offense, let's cover the defense which is 50 percent of winning football games all together.

I'm going to compare in terms of points allowed because when it comes down to it, that's the biggest factor in determining the outcome of football games.

Here are the rankings of the Pittsburgh Steelers' defense from 2004 to 2008:

2004: First

2005: Third

2006: 11th

2007: Second

2008: First

That combines to an average of a 3rd ranked defense during the years that Roethlisberger was active.

Furthermore, his Steelers made the playoffs every year the defense was ranked in the top-10 and failed to do so the one and only time it was ranked just outside that range.

Here are the rankings of the Cincinnati Bengals defense from 2004 to 2008:

2004: 21st

2005: 22nd

2006: 17th

2007: 24th

2008: 19th

That combines to an average of a 20th ranked defense in the years that Palmer has been active. They were not even ranked in the better half of the league a single time in all five of Carson Palmer's years.

Considering that defense wins championships and plays a 50 percent role in winning football games, how much of an advantage do you think Ben Roethlisberger was getting when his defense ranked an average of third in the league when Palmer's ranked an average of 20th?

It is absolutely amazing how easily this slips the minds of many people …

Let me ask you this: how much better do you think Carson Palmer's statistics would have been had his defense been ranked an average of third in every year he played?

Obviously, playing with a poor defense requires Carson Palmer to have to play under more pressure.

Since, he clearly was not getting the backing on the other side of the ball that Roethlisberger was getting, then wouldn't it be logical to assume that playing when having to score points is more difficult then needing to score less points while letting your defense close the door and win?

So, what he has here is a much different comparison then most people would feel there to be.

Many people blend an individual player's talent in with the success of his team to get a perception of a player that might be higher then the reality.

I'm not taking anything away from Ben Roethlisberger, he's certainly one of the better quarterbacks of our generation.

When comparing Ben Roethlisbergerto Carson Palmer however, we see that Palmer has been more accurate, more productive, and has done so with far less backing then Roethlisberger has.

If you take into consideration all of the above points mentioned, you'll come to the conclusion that Carson Palmer is the better quarterback.

He might not have the luxury of playing for the better team but he certainly has proved to be more productive despite playing under far worse circumstances.

It might not be a popular choice but Carson Palmer is clearly the better quarterback of the two.



All I have to say is haaa, haaa, haaa,........

AkronSteel
03-01-2009, 08:05 PM
:wft
:HeadBanger

What a d-bag! Give it a rest with the Palmer is better than Roethlisberger crap! It's just dumb....the guy can't even get his team to the playoffs let alone win when he gets there...all Big Ben does is win! He makes plays when he has to! When Palmer can actually beat Ben head to head on a consistent basis then I will give him some props. Until then all the Bengals fans and beat writers and homers can just go somewhere with themselves!

:bungalssuck

Mister Pittsburgh
03-01-2009, 08:07 PM
One thing this idiot fails to realize is that for the first years of Bens career he was asked to mostly only throw on 3rd down, not out of the no huddle mind you. This allowed D's to swap into nickel and dime formations or pin their ears back and come. I wouldn't really call that balanced. Balanced is when the opposing D doesn't know whether you will pass or run. I would be interested in seeing a breakdown of attempts per down.

RuthlessBurgher
03-01-2009, 08:17 PM
Here is an SAT question for you folks...

Ben Roethlisberger is to Carson Palmer as...

a. Troy Aikman is to Jim Everett or Drew Bledsoe
b. John Elway is to Dave Krieg or Steve DeBerg
c. Bart Starr is to John Hadl or Jim Hart
d. All of the Above

Winners are only concerned about rings and could care less about their own stats.
Losers cling to their own statistics like grim death because they have nothing else.

anger 82&95
03-01-2009, 08:18 PM
It is not a “popular choice” due to the completely asinine nature of the arguments!!!

VirgilBosett
03-01-2009, 08:18 PM
This is down right hilarious.

Blind faith at it's best.

Jom112
03-01-2009, 08:21 PM
Until then all the Bengals fans and beat writers and homers can just go somewhere with themselves!



Here is some info on the writer:



My name is Ryan Michael. I am a 20-year old college student who is aspiring to one day become a successful sports writer. My primary areas of expertise are the NFL and the WWE although I do have a great appreciation for most sports.

I am a die-hard fan of the Indianapolis Colts which you will notice is always my primary source of material. Whether I'm discussing the hero-worship of Peyton Manning or the inspirational leadership of Tony Dungy, it's all there.


Meh, it's just another pointless Carson vs. Ben debate. This time by an INDY fan.

The way I look at is, if Carson was the QB for the Steelers do they win 2 SB's in 5 seasons? Probably not, it's a tough thing to accomplish so no way to say.

If Ben was the QB for the Bengals, do we win a SB in his first 5 seasons? DEFINITELY not.

So there really is no way to compare the two fairly. It is what it is, they're both good QB's and both franchises are lucky to have them. Leave it at that...

RuthlessBurgher
03-01-2009, 08:25 PM
I'm not a Carson hater. He's unquestionably a top 10 QB in this league with the talent to be top 5. However, Ben has vaulted himself into top 3 territory. He's at his best when it counts the most, and those are the type of guys that come home with hardware.

Flasteel
03-01-2009, 08:28 PM
Until then all the Bengals fans and beat writers and homers can just go somewhere with themselves!



Here is some info on the writer:



My name is Ryan Michael. I am a 20-year old college student who is aspiring to one day become a successful sports writer. My primary areas of expertise are the NFL and the WWE although I do have a great appreciation for most sports.

I am a die-hard fan of the Indianapolis Colts which you will notice is always my primary source of material. Whether I'm discussing the hero-worship of Peyton Manning or the inspirational leadership of Tony Dungy, it's all there.


Meh, it's just another pointless Carson vs. Ben debate.

The way I look at is, if Carson was the QB for the Steelers do they win 2 SB's in 5 seasons? Probably not, it's a tough thing to accomplish so no way to say.

If Ben was the QB for the Bengals, do we win a SB in his first 5 seasons? DEFINITELY not.

So there really is no way to compare the two fairly. It is what it is, they're both good QB's and both franchises are lucky to have them. Leave it at that...

Thanks for the background Jom. The argument is absurd to begin with, but considering this drivel was written by some guy who's probably never even been laid, we should all just chuckle and move on.

The real acid test would be to ask Bengal fans who they'd rather have under center.
What say you Jom?

Jom112
03-01-2009, 08:36 PM
Thanks for the background Jom. The argument is absurd to begin with, but considering this drivel was written by some guy who's probably never even been laid, we should all just chuckle and move on.

The real acid test would be to ask Bengal fans who they'd rather have under center.
What say you Jom?

I'd go with Carson. It's based on many things though. I mean I watch Carson and read a lot more on him, so I have a lot of respect for what he does for the Team, not just his play on Sundays.

When you're constantly reading things such has how he brings the receivers to Cali in the offseason to train with him (He recently put up Henry and his family in his house to help him develop). Henry, Caldwell, Simpson and TJ have all been training with him. Chad used to but stopped about two seasons ago because he's too busy, now look how Chad's doing.

There is more to a QB then just some stats that a 20 year old is going to post. If you guys had Carson, I'm sure you guys would feel the same way about him. As I'm sure you do about Ben, because of all he does for your team...

feelthesteel
03-01-2009, 10:09 PM
Rings baby Rings
and were goin for more.
:bungalssuck :bungalssuck :bungalssuck :bungalssuck :bungalssuck :bungalssuck

there were alot of great QBs when Terry played too.
Stabler Staubach dude from the Chargers Fouts yadda yadda yadda
who gives a rats ass
4 RINGS!!

DukieBoy
03-01-2009, 10:24 PM
Ben Roethlisberger = 8 - 2 playoff record, 2x SuperBowl winning QB.
Carson Palmer = 0 - 1 playoff record, no SB appearances.

I'll take performance over potential as the more meaningful measure in this argument

RuthlessBurgher
03-01-2009, 10:28 PM
Thanks for the background Jom. The argument is absurd to begin with, but considering this drivel was written by some guy who's probably never even been laid, we should all just chuckle and move on.

The real acid test would be to ask Bengal fans who they'd rather have under center.
What say you Jom?

I'd go with Carson. It's based on many things though. I mean I watch Carson and read a lot more on him, so I have a lot of respect for what he does for the Team, not just his play on Sundays.

When you're constantly reading things such has how he brings the receivers to Cali in the offseason to train with him (He recently put up Henry and his family in his house to help him develop). Henry, Caldwell, Simpson and TJ have all been training with him. Chad used to but stopped about two seasons ago because he's too busy, now look how Chad's doing.

There is more to a QB then just some stats that a 20 year old is going to post. If you guys had Carson, I'm sure you guys would feel the same way about him. As I'm sure you do about Ben, because of all he does for your team...

Troy Polamalu has nothing but good things to say about his time at USC with Carson, so he must be a good guy, and he certainly can play. However, I will still continue to give Carson grief about those John Morell Sausage ads. Ben's first Fathead commercial was painfully awkward and cringeworthy, but at least he wasn't shoving a phallic shaped food item into his Cornhole.

:wft was he thinking?!?! :lol: :bungalssuck

DukieBoy
03-01-2009, 10:37 PM
Thanks for the background Jom. The argument is absurd to begin with, but considering this drivel was written by some guy who's probably never even been laid, we should all just chuckle and move on.

The real acid test would be to ask Bengal fans who they'd rather have under center.
What say you Jom?

I'd go with Carson. It's based on many things though. I mean I watch Carson and read a lot more on him, so I have a lot of respect for what he does for the Team, not just his play on Sundays.

When you're constantly reading things such has how he brings the receivers to Cali in the offseason to train with him (He recently put up Henry and his family in his house to help him develop). Henry, Caldwell, Simpson and TJ have all been training with him. Chad used to but stopped about two seasons ago because he's too busy, now look how Chad's doing.

There is more to a QB then just some stats that a 20 year old is going to post. If you guys had Carson, I'm sure you guys would feel the same way about him. As I'm sure you do about Ben, because of all he does for your team...

We all know that football is a TEAM game. Ben proved himself as a leader of this team in the face of significant challenges (O-line issues, injuries -which all teams face and must overcome, Ben's own significant injuries, plenty of criticism of the offense, and a reg season schedule rated as most difficult plus a challenging playoff run). And he was clutch when games were on the line several times over. Stats tell a story, just not the whole story. I don't know that Carson Palmer has the leadership capacity of the clutch capacity that Ben has proven. Maybe, maybe not. Sure, we'd root for our team as you say. But I am real glad that Ben is in Pgh rather than Carson.

Chadman
03-01-2009, 11:16 PM
Wow....

don't know about you guys, but after reading that- Chadman is convinced...

:shock:

Thank God for posters like Jom!

sd steel
03-01-2009, 11:48 PM
Intriguing argument, and I think it shows that a style and a scheme and even a whole team can make a QB look good. But if you watch the games, it is easy to see that Ben has a will to win. Although this is helped by the organization and the Pittsburgh Steeler style of play, I think he could be successful if plugged into another organization. He has escapability and a school yard, old school broken play feel that can't be taught. Whereas Carson is a "by the book drop back passer". He is accurate and he can put up points as long as his line is doing their job. Ben is able to create plays without an oline or a great rushing attack.

So yes a QB can be a product of the system, but if he can't take also work without the success of the system he will still lose. Ben has had alot of support from the defense and a decent rushing attack, but he has still been successful when the we had let downs in other areas of our game.

Bottom line is Ben is a winner and Carson isn't.....Period.

stlrz d
03-02-2009, 12:17 AM
Hmmmm...who would I take?

Probably the guy who's won 73% of the games he's started. The guy who is 8-2 in the playoffs. The guy who has 2 rings in his first 5 seasons.

As for the stuff Jom mentioned about Palmer...Ben does stuff like that too. But one thing Palmer's done that Ben hasn't? Ben hasn't given the old, "The best team didn't win today" spiel to the media.

:stirpot

jrobitaille23
03-02-2009, 12:49 AM
This is a pretty good debate to have but the author is kinda clueless with his analysis. Having a great running game or a better one as he contends the Steelers do (and they do:)) to justify why Ben has a better QB rating is such b.s. Ben is stuck with more 3rd and longs and obvious passing downs that it more than negates the supposed better balance. The Bengals threw quite a bit more than we did when Carson was on his game. Just look at Ben's numbers in 04 SB run where he was very strong against DEN, IND and CIN. It isn't like Ben walked into a great situation either. There is a reason we were able to draft him where we did, because we were awful the prior year. I have been very vocal in my criticism of Ben i.e. slow processing of info, holds ball too long, not tucking and running more, letting play clock go to 1 every time. That said, he does things NO QB in history has been able to do with his playmaking ability. He has carte blanche after two SB and I would take him over any QB.

stlrz d
03-02-2009, 12:53 AM
And another thing...Palmer gets a lot of yards when the Bengals are down and the opposing defense is playing prevent.

Djfan
03-02-2009, 02:21 AM
This is such a lame comparison. I bet the kid gets a job since the media is famous for it's ability to bend the truth and make it stick.

Jom, I would take Ben over Palmer anyday, but applaud your attention to your team, and your willingness to stick to your guns.

Sorry, but the media has tried to ignore Ben and pump up Carson. Fact is that there are lots of guys I think who deserve the attention of the sports media before Carson. That being said, he has a ton of time to step it up and shine. He also seems to have the skills to do just that.

Ben already has, of course.

MeetJoeGreene
03-02-2009, 08:32 AM
Carson probably does have a few better "measurables" than Ben. Carson is a technically sound quarterback. That is not to say the Palmer's measures are somehow "far superior" to Ben's... maybe just a tad.

Ben has more PROVEN intangibles than Carson does at this point.

People seem to think that Ben wins BECAUSE he is on the Steelers. We, as fans, think the Steelers win, in a large part, because of Ben.

DukieBoy
03-02-2009, 08:33 AM
This is such a lame comparison. I bet the kid gets a job since the media is famous for it's ability to bend the truth and make it stick.

Jom, I would take Ben over Palmer anyday, but applaud your attention to your team, and your willingness to stick to your guns.

Sorry, but the media has tried to ignore Ben and pump up Carson. Fact is that there are lots of guys I think who deserve the attention of the sports media before Carson. That being said, he has a ton of time to step it up and shine. He also seems to have the skills to do just that.

Ben already has, of course.

Glitzy pass-happy California kid, from a high-profile college program in a high-profile conference, with a Hollywood movie star-sounding name
-vs-
Team-oriented Midwest kid from a pedestrian college program in a little-respected conference playing in a Steel town with a 4-syllable last name so long it barely fits on his jersey.

Who does the media pick?
If Palmer ever wins more than one playoff game the media will annoint him King and put him in the HOF and tell us the told us so for years.

DukieBoy
03-02-2009, 08:35 AM
Carson probably does have a few better "measurables" than Ben. Carson is a technically sound quarterback. That is not to say the Palmer's measures are somehow "far superior" to Ben's... maybe just a tad.

Ben has more PROVEN intangibles than Carson does at this point.

People seem to think that Ben wins BECAUSE he is on the Steelers. We, as fans, think the Steelers win, in a large part, because of Ben.


Right on.
Ben has made "intangibles" into "TANGIBLES".

Oviedo
03-02-2009, 08:45 AM
Another off season piece to trash. There are so many people who want to minimize everything about the Steelers and their success. I put this in the same garbage bucket as last year's "the Browns are going to the Super Bowl" articles.

Palmer has a great arm but he lacks the intangibles to be a great QB. Just another "soft" USC QB who mentally lacks the toughness to be truly great.

steelblood
03-02-2009, 09:33 AM
Toughness is not a QB stat, but it should be. Peyton and Carson are both pocket passers that will begin to bail out and rush themselves in the face of a constant blitz. Ben, on the other hand, often gets better when under pressure. I have a lot of respect for Palmer and have seem him make some great throws under duress. However, too often, I have seen him look like a mediocre QB when his O-line plays poorly. I would probably rather have Carson Palmer if we had the best o-line in the game, threw a lot of deep balls, and played in decent weather. But, we don't. And, I'm glad we have Ben.

Starlifter
03-02-2009, 09:55 AM
no disrespect to Jom, but as usual the Off-season is the only time fans of the bungles or clowns can say something positive about their team. Last years debacle is over and at least 4 in the national media will pick them as the team to beat next season. They will focus on every stat except the one that counts most, W-L. The article is also cowardly. It was written at a time when few are reading, and even less care. Imagine if he had dared to say Carson was better right in the midst of that special 4-11-1 season? Every person in cincy and the rest of the world would have called him a moron. But in march? when no one is looking? sounds like a perfect time to talk about the bungles.....

Chachi
03-02-2009, 10:27 AM
Reading this thread, I couldn't help but be reminded of this......

http://www.hulu.com/watch/57938/saturda ... e-wii-guys (http://www.hulu.com/watch/57938/saturday-night-live-wii-guys)

feltdizz
03-02-2009, 11:35 AM
the difference is 3rd down completions and 4th quarter QB ratings...

Carson is real innaccurate when the game is on the line.. maybe it's his WR's as well... but I think he, like most USC QB's, just doesn't have that will to win. I think he relies on talent more then guts.

..and guts win every time.

NorCal-Steeler
03-02-2009, 11:54 AM
Palmer also sat his rookie year learning the system, while Ben had to go in and win.

Djfan
03-02-2009, 03:00 PM
We need to reinstate MSM for this thread.

:stirpot :stirpot

DBinAL
03-02-2009, 04:33 PM
Jom112 wrote:


I'd go with Carson. It's based on many things though. I mean I watch Carson and read a lot more on him, so I have a lot of respect for what he does for the Team, not just his play on Sundays.

When you're constantly reading things such has how he brings the receivers to Cali in the offseason to train with him (He recently put up Henry and his family in his house to help him develop). Henry, Caldwell, Simpson and TJ have all been training with him. Chad used to but stopped about two seasons ago because he's too busy, now look how Chad's doing.

There is more to a QB then just some stats that a 20 year old is going to post. If you guys had Carson, I'm sure you guys would feel the same way about him. As I'm sure you do about Ben, because of all he does for your team...
Jom112 - It's great that you are president of the Carson Palmer Fan Club, but Palmer is not paid to be Mr. Wonderful during the off-season. He's paid to win football games on Sunday. He has yet to live up to those expectations.

Ben does all of what Palmer does and more. By the way, he has found a way to win games on Sundays. It's a no brainer - Ben wins....and wins...and wins.

RussBII
03-02-2009, 05:30 PM
I think Carson is a helluva QB. He's just had to take several steps backwards because of the god-awful organization he plays for. No offense to Jom, who is quite frankly in the pantheon of Cool Bengals Fans. I only know one other. They are rare.

The fact that Marvin Lewis is still the coach there just kills me. I think that if Carson could've steadily improved with a team, opposed to that roller coaster in Cinci he'd easily be considered a top 5 QB w/o hesitation. I'm surprised he hasn't begged for a trade yet.

Maybe that John Morrell Sausage money is too much to give up...

Better than Ben? I dunno, different than Ben, that's for sure. I still want Big Ben in the black and gold and no one else.

NorthCoast
03-02-2009, 09:50 PM
Ben absolutely carried the team on his shoulders to get into his first Superbowl. His playoff run was amazing but we all have to agree that it WAS the defense that won the first Superbowl, not Ben's play. So parts of this guy's arguments could be valid, but the sum total is that Ben has found ways to make plays and for the same reasons we grind our teeth about him (holds the ball too long) are the reasons he wins in the clutch. Consider these stats:

QB Rating Playing from Behind:
B. Roethlisberger: 90.9
C. Palmer: 76.3

But it is really the stat below that is amazing because when you are playing with no margin for error, a bad play easily ends up as a loss:

Playing from 1 - 8 pts behind:
B. Roethlisberger: 119.4
C. Palmer: 74.3

So where does Palmer really shine? The numbers below are telling. He excels when the games are out of reach and in catch up mode:

QB Rating:
ATTEMPTS 1-THROUGH-10 CP= 39.4 BB= 69.6
ATTEMPTS 11-THROUGH-20 CP= 79.0 BB= 95.9
ATTEMPTS 21-THROUGH-30 CP= 67.7 BB= 73.7
ATTEMPTS 31+ CP= 114.8 BB= 81.2

(BTW, it was interesting to note that both QBs take time to 'warm up' as evidenced by attempts 1-10, or this could be a case of taking high risk chances down the field early.)

Scarletfire1970
03-02-2009, 10:04 PM
We need to reinstate MSM for this thread.

:stirpot :stirpot
Where is MSM anyway?

Chadman
03-02-2009, 10:16 PM
Was Marino better than Montana? Better than Elway? Better than Young? Aikmen?


Those who have said that different systems create different QB's are right- not all QB's will succeed in every team, simnply becuase the mechanics of each organisation is different.

Is Ben better or worse than Palmer? Peyton? Eli? Jay Cutler? Brady? Brees?

All these guys could probably make some claim to being the 'best', or 'better' than the others on the list.

But would they ALL succeed in Pittsburgh? New England? Denver? Indy? New Orleans? Cincinatti?

Given the EXACT SAME SITUATIONS- only THEN could you honestly tell who is 'best'.

Of course, you'd then have to take into consideration weather conditions, game conditions....

Let's just agree that both Ben & Carson are pretty damn good.

Wolfhound45
03-02-2009, 10:46 PM
Wow. Great analysis by Ryan Michael. After all that he wrote, it is painfully obvious.

Ben Roethlisberger is the better quarterback.

Scoreboard - XL and XLIII

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/images/200902/20090301pdsteelers05_330.jpg

Carson Palmer needs to stick to eating hot dogs with eye black on.

http://cache.deadspin.com/assets/resources/2007/11/carson%20palmer.jpg

DukieBoy
03-02-2009, 11:03 PM
Was Marino better than Montana? Better than Elway? Better than Young? Aikmen?


Those who have said that different systems create different QB's are right- not all QB's will succeed in every team, simnply becuase the mechanics of each organisation is different.

Is Ben better or worse than Palmer? Peyton? Eli? Jay Cutler? Brady? Brees?

All these guys could probably make some claim to being the 'best', or 'better' than the others on the list.

But would they ALL succeed in Pittsburgh? New England? Denver? Indy? New Orleans? Cincinatti?

Given the EXACT SAME SITUATIONS- only THEN could you honestly tell who is 'best'.

Of course, you'd then have to take into consideration weather conditions, game conditions....

Let's just agree that both Ben & Carson are pretty damn good.


86 is better yet.

feltdizz
03-03-2009, 05:45 PM
Ben absolutely carried the team on his shoulders to get into his first Superbowl. His playoff run was amazing but we all have to agree that it WAS the defense that won the first Superbowl, not Ben's play. So parts of this guy's arguments could be valid, but the sum total is that Ben has found ways to make plays and for the same reasons we grind our teeth about him (holds the ball too long) are the reasons he wins in the clutch. Consider these stats:

QB Rating Playing from Behind:
B. Roethlisberger: 90.9
C. Palmer: 76.3

But it is really the stat below that is amazing because when you are playing with no margin for error, a bad play easily ends up as a loss:

Playing from 1 - 8 pts behind:
B. Roethlisberger: 119.4
C. Palmer: 74.3

So where does Palmer really shine? The numbers below are telling. He excels when the games are out of reach and in catch up mode:

QB Rating:
ATTEMPTS 1-THROUGH-10 CP= 39.4 BB= 69.6
ATTEMPTS 11-THROUGH-20 CP= 79.0 BB= 95.9
ATTEMPTS 21-THROUGH-30 CP= 67.7 BB= 73.7
ATTEMPTS 31+ CP= 114.8 BB= 81.2

(BTW, it was interesting to note that both QBs take time to 'warm up' as evidenced by attempts 1-10, or this could be a case of taking high risk chances down the field early.)


QB Rating Playing from Behind:
B. Roethlisberger: 90.9
C. Palmer: 76.3

Ben plays better when he is losing.....that is the difference between Ben and every other QB they try to compare him to.....

Djfan
03-03-2009, 09:05 PM
We need to reinstate MSM for this thread.

:stirpot :stirpot
Where is MSM anyway?

http://steelerstrong.proboards.com/index.cgi