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BradshawsHairdresser
02-19-2009, 06:25 PM
Over $15 million for the 2008 and 2009 seasons combined, and--
--he's not in the top tier of offensive tackles
--he wasn't even a starter until Smith went down
--there's no indication other teams were even all that interested in him

Yes, he played adequately and got better as the season wore on. But 8 million +?
For Max???

Colbert's spending like he's Obama...

True Fan
02-19-2009, 06:47 PM
well, that's what happens when you chose to ignore certain positions on the team for years in a row

decleater
02-19-2009, 07:43 PM
Over $15 million for the 2008 and 2009 seasons combined, and--
--he's not in the top tier of offensive tackles
--he wasn't even a starter until Smith went down
--there's no indication other teams were even all that interested in him

Yes, he played adequately and got better as the season wore on. But 8 million +?
For Max???

Colbert's spending like he's Obama...
Yeah, Colbert's a real dumb azz for making the decision that helped enormously to bring us a 'SB winning team this past season. :moon

AkronSteel
02-19-2009, 07:54 PM
Over $15 million for the 2008 and 2009 seasons combined, and--
--he's not in the top tier of offensive tackles
--he wasn't even a starter until Smith went down
--there's no indication other teams were even all that interested in him

Yes, he played adequately and got better as the season wore on. But 8 million +?
For Max???

Colbert's spending like he's Obama...
Yeah, Colbert's a real dumb azz for making the decision that helped enormously to bring
us a 'SB winning team this past season. :moon

:Clap

I'm so tired of the Colbert bashing, its ridiculous! The guy has put us in a position to compete every year and now we have won two World Championships under his watch! Man....if we could all only be this bad at our job....I guess the economy might not actually be as bad as it is!

:HeadBanger

Ozey74
02-19-2009, 09:02 PM
Right on!! I've been critical of Colbert in the past, but them days are over. I really like what he's done the past 2 years of the draft (and we yet to know how Mendenhall will turn out). True, Sweed made me scratch my head in wonder a few times his rookie year, but so did Timmons his rookie year.


:tt2

SidSmythe
02-19-2009, 09:12 PM
Colbert is cool

BURGH86STEEL
02-19-2009, 09:29 PM
well, that's what happens when you chose to ignore certain positions on the team for years in a row

They did not ignore certain positions on the team for years in a row. I wish people would stop making comments like that without look at facts. People need to look at the factors that go into the decisions teams make/made.

AkronSteel
02-19-2009, 09:37 PM
well, that's what happens when you chose to ignore certain positions on the team for years in a row

They did not ignore certain positions on the team for years in a row. I wish people would stop making comments like that without look at facts. People need to look at the factors that go into the decisions teams make/made.

How true you are my friend!

Lets look at those facts!

Max Starks - 3rd Rounder
Trai Essex - 3rd Rounder
Chris Kemoeatu - 6th Rounder
Willie Colon - 4th Rounder
Tony Hills - 4th Rounder
Darnell Stapleton - UDFA

Justin Hartwig - signed in FA
Sean Mahan - signed in........oh to heck with all that!!! :oops:

The team has addressed the OL through out the last few years but not with premium picks! The investment was still made either way though!! Did they all work out? No...but that never happens with any team! I do however think that this year is big in the draft to help in the trenches!

RuthlessBurgher
02-19-2009, 09:47 PM
Colbert is cool

I don't know that I would go that far. He's a pretty darn good talent evaluator, but he ain't exactly Fonzie.

http://www.usafootball.com/file_manager_speedy_renderer.php?media_id=4873&rendering_context=view_article

True Fan
02-19-2009, 09:47 PM
well, that's what happens when you chose to ignore certain positions on the team for years in a row

They did not ignore certain positions on the team for years in a row. I wish people would stop making comments like that without look at facts. People need to look at the factors that go into the decisions teams make/made.


i'm sorry, you are correct. the steelers did not ignore those positions, they chose to ignore spending premium picks to draft quality individuals and then decided to sign cheap FAs.

BURGH86STEEL
02-19-2009, 10:19 PM
[quote="True Fan":ha39ggq2]well, that's what happens when you chose to ignore certain positions on the team for years in a row

They did not ignore certain positions on the team for years in a row. I wish people would stop making comments like that without look at facts. People need to look at the factors that go into the decisions teams make/made.


i'm sorry, you are correct. the steelers did not ignore those positions, they chose to ignore spending premium picks to draft quality individuals and then decided to sign cheap FAs.[/quote:ha39ggq2]

It is more complex than spending premium picks to draft quality individuals on the O or D line. There are so many factors that go into who gets drafted. Sometimes, premium Olinemen were not available where the Steelers drafted. Sometimes, they had quality players at those positions. Would it be logical to draft a LT 3 years ago if you were paying Smith top money as a starter and had him for 3 more seasons? Hard for teams to stock pile players with free agency. Would you rather have a starter like Troy, Woodley, or Holmes or pick up another marginal lineman? There are other factors that go into decision making. There are no easy answers. In any event, they have several winning seasons and 2 SBs to show for it. They must be doing something right.

I cannot say I blame them for not spending a lot of money in FA. I do not think those big money FA signings work out most of the time.

pfelix73
02-19-2009, 10:29 PM
Well, that just about seals the deal on which position in round 1 we won't be going after...

Congrats to the Steelers for franchising him and keeping him around. Now, let's get a long-term deal done. See ya, Marvel.

OR- I wonder if they'd keep Marvel and move him back to the right side.??

In that case, see ya Willie.

costanza2k1
02-19-2009, 11:35 PM
Bottom line the entire organization is measured by SBs won from the top to bottom. Starts with the owners all the way down to the ball boys. That's it. He has 2 now and the last one was with only 3 players that were left over from the past Director of Operations who by the way won 0 during his tenure as D of O.

careydavis
02-20-2009, 03:34 AM
Over $15 million for the 2008 and 2009 seasons combined, and--
--he's not in the top tier of offensive tackles
--he wasn't even a starter until Smith went down
--there's no indication other teams were even all that interested in him

Yes, he played adequately and got better as the season wore on. But 8 million +?
For Max???

Colbert's spending like he's Obama...
Yeah, Colbert's a real dumb azz for making the decision that helped enormously to bring us a 'SB winning team this past season. :moon

so you really think that Max Starks was the key huh?
:D

Mel Blount's G
02-20-2009, 03:45 AM
Well, that just about seals the deal on which position in round 1 we won't be going after...

Congrats to the Steelers for franchising him and keeping him around. Now, let's get a long-term deal done. See ya, Marvel.

OR- I wonder if they'd keep Marvel and move him back to the right side.??

In that case, see ya Willie.
Pretty bold of you to assume Marvel's gonna play isn't it? Sorry for my pessimism but I cannot put any stock in Marvel. If he plays, how effective will/can he be and how long can his back last?

BradshawsHairdresser
02-20-2009, 01:20 PM
OK, you guys have convinced me...the Super Bowl win means that Colbert can do no wrong. He has done a fantastic job assembling the best offensive line in the league!
He's done such a great job, we probably don't even need to draft an offensive lineman for the next 3 years! Kemo's agent is right--he's obviously one of the top guards in the league. Heck, we still got $11 million or so under the cap--if Max is worth 8 million we might as well give Kemo at least 5 million. That would still leave us enough to spring for a big, new deal for Colon. And don't forget, Simmons is rested and ready to return. Who says we need to be able to score rushing touchdowns? Or keep our quarterback from getting sacked 50 times a season? We have a Super Bowl O-line--anyone who suggests we need to do anything differently than we've been doing with that line is obviously not a true fan.

stlrz d
02-20-2009, 01:34 PM
It's not the 70s anymore. There are more teams taking talent from the draft and that pesky little free agency (and parity) thing all but assures that you can't be great at every position.

I agree the O line needs to get better, but too much focus on the O line will have people screaming about other spots being ignored. You know it to be true.

Oviedo
02-20-2009, 02:53 PM
I'd say Colbert gets credit for building a better TEAM than 31 other GMs. It's a balancing act because every area cannot be top notch staffed with first rate players. It the system development world it is called "balanced design."

No GM is perfect but Colbert is among the best no matter how much people want to complain and act like they could do better given the same constraints and most important living in the real world.

RuthlessBurgher
02-20-2009, 02:54 PM
It's not the 70s anymore. There are more teams taking talent from the draft and that pesky little free agency (and parity) thing all but assures that you can't be great at every position.

I agree the O line needs to get better, but too much focus on the O line will have people screaming about other spots being ignored. You know it to be true.

Yeah, we haven't drafted an All-Pro long snapper in, well, EVER!!! Get to it Colbert! You've ignored this position for too long. First round long snapper, baby! If the Giants game didn't show you the importance of that position, then nothing will!!! :mrgreen:

BradshawsHairdresser
02-21-2009, 11:26 AM
I'd say Colbert gets credit for building a better TEAM than 31 other GMs. It's a balancing act because every area cannot be top notch staffed with first rate players. It the system development world it is called "balanced design."

No GM is perfect but Colbert is among the best no matter how much people want to complain and act like they could do better given the same constraints and most important living in the real world.

Hey, guess what? I AGREE with you that Colbert has done a fine job overall. But c'mon--making Max Starks one of the highest-paid tackles in the league? How many can honestly say they feel real good about giving out HALF of our cap space for a player the Steelers didn't even consider to be starter material at the beginning of last season?

stlrz d
02-21-2009, 11:30 AM
I'd say Colbert gets credit for building a better TEAM than 31 other GMs. It's a balancing act because every area cannot be top notch staffed with first rate players. It the system development world it is called "balanced design."

No GM is perfect but Colbert is among the best no matter how much people want to complain and act like they could do better given the same constraints and most important living in the real world.

Hey, guess what? I AGREE with you that Colbert has done a fine job overall. But c'mon--making Max Starks one of the highest-paid tackles in the league? How many can honestly say they feel real good about giving out HALF of our cap space for a player the Steelers didn't even consider to be starter material at the beginning of last season?

Well I'm not an expert on what the Steelers' options were with him, but I assume they did it because they don't want him to walk and they haven't yet been able to work out a long term deal with him. There's an article posted by fordfixer stating that Max wants to stay so we'll see how much he really means that. If they do a cap friendly long term deal then he's sincere. If not then he's just another money grabber.

I'm not thrilled with how much he'll get if he doesn't sign long term, but I wouldn't be happy with him leaving either. Marvel is done and we have no other option at LT.

RuthlessBurgher
02-21-2009, 11:47 AM
I'd say Colbert gets credit for building a better TEAM than 31 other GMs. It's a balancing act because every area cannot be top notch staffed with first rate players. It the system development world it is called "balanced design."

No GM is perfect but Colbert is among the best no matter how much people want to complain and act like they could do better given the same constraints and most important living in the real world.

Hey, guess what? I AGREE with you that Colbert has done a fine job overall. But c'mon--making Max Starks one of the highest-paid tackles in the league? How many can honestly say they feel real good about giving out HALF of our cap space for a player the Steelers didn't even consider to be starter material at the beginning of last season?

What are his other options? Jordan Gross re-signed in Carolina before free agency started. Vernon Carey re-signed in Miami before free agency started. The next best veteran LT to hit the market is Khalif Barnes, and he gave up more sacks last year than Starks did. I'm not a Starks guy (My ideal scenario would be for one of the top 4 LT's to slip to the middle of the first round and we trade up to get him, allowing the rookie one year to adjust to the NFL while Starks plays out his one year franchise deal), but Max, unfortunately, is the best option for the team right now. You simply cannot go into next season without someone proven protecting your $102 million QB's blind side. I don't think we win the Super Bowl if he did not get the transition tag last year and someone like Essex, Colon, Hills, Parquet, or Capizzi had to step in as the starting LT when Marvel went down. The law of supply and demand for LT's dictates that you have to pay a premium price for a guy even if he isn't an All-Pro (the fact is that merely adequate LT's around the league make a pretty penny...that's just the way things work). Without any other viable options right now, using the franchise tag was the sensible thing to do.

Discipline of Steel
02-21-2009, 11:55 AM
I'd say Colbert gets credit for building a better TEAM than 31 other GMs. It's a balancing act because every area cannot be top notch staffed with first rate players. It the system development world it is called "balanced design."

No GM is perfect but Colbert is among the best no matter how much people want to complain and act like they could do better given the same constraints and most important living in the real world.

Hey, guess what? I AGREE with you that Colbert has done a fine job overall. But c'mon--making Max Starks one of the highest-paid tackles in the league? How many can honestly say they feel real good about giving out HALF of our cap space for a player the Steelers didn't even consider to be starter material at the beginning of last season?

Doesnt FattMaxx's salary from last year come off our cap number before his new salary is added in? If true, that would mean the deal only eats a couple mil from our cap.

RuthlessBurgher
02-21-2009, 11:58 AM
I'd say Colbert gets credit for building a better TEAM than 31 other GMs. It's a balancing act because every area cannot be top notch staffed with first rate players. It the system development world it is called "balanced design."

No GM is perfect but Colbert is among the best no matter how much people want to complain and act like they could do better given the same constraints and most important living in the real world.

Hey, guess what? I AGREE with you that Colbert has done a fine job overall. But c'mon--making Max Starks one of the highest-paid tackles in the league? How many can honestly say they feel real good about giving out HALF of our cap space for a player the Steelers didn't even consider to be starter material at the beginning of last season?

Doesnt FattMaxx's salary from last year come off our cap number before his new salary is added in? If true, that would mean the deal only eats a couple mil from our cap.

I think the $19 million figure already took into account that the salary's for Max, Marvel, Kemo, Essex, Colon, McFadden, Washington, etc. were already off the books for '09. I think we are down to about ten-and-a-half mil in cap space after the Starks tag.

pfelix73
02-21-2009, 12:07 PM
I don't agree that 'Marvel is done'. He'll go elsewhere and play for a few more years, so I don't think he's 'done'. OR we'll re-sign him for 1 or 2 years.

Colbert did the right thing and franchise tag Starks. But you're right about one thing- We'll see how sincere he is at staying a Steeler. I heard he's one of the leaders and jokesters in the locker room, so I hope he does sign a new long-term contract.

Let's not forget that both Kemo and Starks are young guys who are just coming into their prime of their careers. Yes, Kemo too. He'll get a good contract from us or someone else.

Let's also not forget that Starks has 2 SB rings now as a starting OT. He NEVER should have lost his job to Colon in the 1st place! But maybe it's a good thing that he did, because he was moved to the left side.

Remember that cohesiveness along the OL is most important, so the more guys stay in their old positions the better off they'll be. We don't need 4 out of 5 new starters like some on here think. We'll see what they do with Kemo/ Essex/ Smith/ Colon now.

With this said, I predict that they may let Kemo walk and re-sign Essex and allow him to play LG. Re-sign Willie and/or even Smith and we'd have a OL like this:

Starks/ Capizzi
Essex/ Rook
Hartwig/ Stapleton
Simmons
Colon/ Smith/ Hills


At the most there'd be 2 positions filled if Smith would start at RT. I'd move him back.

stlrz d
02-21-2009, 12:24 PM
pfelix - my opinion on Marvel is based on recent history. I hope to be proven wrong by him as it would be great to have him back but I just don't think his ailing back can take the pounding anymore.

pfelix73
02-21-2009, 12:33 PM
I'm just going by what the reports were on him. (although they were almost the same last year too)

Ed Buchetter reported some time ago that the Steelers think his back problems are now 'behind' him. And since the Steelers doctors know more about him than say a another team, they could get him at a reasonable price for at least 1 year. Then he could prove that his back is OK and no longer an issue. OR is still an issue for that matter.

It they could get him cheap, why not move him back to the right side? If it were up to me- I'd let Colon go. IMO- he and Stapleton were the weak links.

stlrz d
02-21-2009, 12:39 PM
I'm just going by what the reports were on him. (although they were almost the same last year too)

Ed Buchetter reported some time ago that the Steelers think his back problems are now 'behind' him. And since the Steelers doctors know more about him than say a another team, they could get him at a reasonable price for at least 1 year. Then he could prove that his back is OK and no longer an issue. OR is still an issue for that matter.

It they could get him cheap, why not move him back to the right side? If it were up to me- I'd let Colon go. IMO- he and Stapleton were the weak links.

Well if that were the case then I'd like to see him back at LT with Max at RT. Hartwig for one more year at center, a rookie (Mack or Unger?) at one guard and Stapleton at the other. Goodbye to Kemo.

Draft another guard to take over for either Mack or Unger when they move to center after Hartwig's deal is up.

Thoughts?

RuthlessBurgher
02-21-2009, 12:47 PM
I'm just going by what the reports were on him. (although they were almost the same last year too)

Ed Buchetter reported some time ago that the Steelers think his back problems are now 'behind' him. And since the Steelers doctors know more about him than say a another team, they could get him at a reasonable price for at least 1 year. Then he could prove that his back is OK and no longer an issue. OR is still an issue for that matter.

It they could get him cheap, why not move him back to the right side? If it were up to me- I'd let Colon go. IMO- he and Stapleton were the weak links.

Colon could be kept cheaply with just a RFA tender for a million or a million and a half. He'll be back for at least one more year.

pfelix73
02-21-2009, 12:48 PM
We're back to that moving all of these guys around again... Which isn't a good thing.

I'd just keep Starks at LT now that he's demonstrated that he can play LT in the NFL and keep Hartwig at C. I thought Essex played well at G during camp last year and during games too. I'd like to see what he can do at LG. Simmons will win his job back at LG. Unless he gets hurt again, I just don't see Stapleton winning a competition with him at RG.

RT is up for grabs, IMO. Maybe Hills will surprise or Smith/ Starks like you said.....

pfelix73
02-21-2009, 12:50 PM
Is that the case with Colon? I don't know all these RFA rules, etc.... Well then, I guess he'll return too......If that's the case, then Smith may be the odd man out...I'd be surprised if they brought both Smith and Colon back, but who knows?

RuthlessBurgher
02-21-2009, 12:51 PM
I'm just going by what the reports were on him. (although they were almost the same last year too)

Ed Buchetter reported some time ago that the Steelers think his back problems are now 'behind' him. And since the Steelers doctors know more about him than say a another team, they could get him at a reasonable price for at least 1 year. Then he could prove that his back is OK and no longer an issue. OR is still an issue for that matter.

It they could get him cheap, why not move him back to the right side? If it were up to me- I'd let Colon go. IMO- he and Stapleton were the weak links.

Well if that were the case then I'd like to see him back at LT with Max at RT. Hartwig for one more year at center, a rookie (Mack or Unger?) at one guard and Stapleton at the other. Goodbye to Kemo.

Draft another guard to take over for either Mack or Unger when they move to center after Hartwig's deal is up.

Thoughts?

If you had Max and Marvel as your tackles, I would have Colon starting at guard over Stapleton. The only issue with that is if a tackle gets hurt, you'd likely have to move Colon back to tackle, meaning two moves to fill one hole.