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papillon
12-11-2008, 07:07 AM
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/cityregion/s_602123.html

Thought you all might want to read this.

Yes Sir!

Pappy

flippy
12-11-2008, 07:50 AM
Wonder if we'll be looking back and the darn economy will have lead to the demise of the Steelers franchise?

papillon
12-11-2008, 09:27 AM
I don't know about the demise of the franchise, but, having 17 partners really bothers me. Clearly, Dan Rooney and his son can't afford to buy the Steelers. If I were an investor in the Steelers I would want a say in what happens. I can't imagine how you assemble 17 people to discuss football operations.

Unless, they're basically floating bonds to the 17 investors which guarantees a return of the debt plus interest at some point in the future and these investors have no football operation input. Too many chefs will spoil the soup.

Yes Sir!

Pappy

flippy
12-11-2008, 09:31 AM
I don't know about the demise of the franchise, but, having 17 partners really bothers me. Clearly, Dan Rooney and his son can't afford to buy the Steelers. If I were an investor in the Steelers I would want a say in what happens. I can't imagine how you assemble 17 people to discuss football operations.

Unless, they're basically floating bonds to the 17 investors which guarantees a return of the debt plus interest at some point in the future and these investors have no football operation input. Too many chefs will spoil the soup.

Yes Sir!

Pappy

Yeah, it's the 17 that bothers me in this economy.

I don't want it affecting the product, but I can't help but think it's gonna at some point.

Oviedo
12-11-2008, 09:49 AM
I don't know about the demise of the franchise, but, having 17 partners really bothers me. Clearly, Dan Rooney and his son can't afford to buy the Steelers. If I were an investor in the Steelers I would want a say in what happens. I can't imagine how you assemble 17 people to discuss football operations.

Unless, they're basically floating bonds to the 17 investors which guarantees a return of the debt plus interest at some point in the future and these investors have no football operation input. Too many chefs will spoil the soup.

Yes Sir!

Pappy

We will look back and realize that the worst thing that ever happened to the Steelers is not selling to Druckenmiller. I'm sure the next collective bargaining agreement will eliminate or significantly modify the salary cap. In that case "fat cat" billionaire owners with sweet stadium deals will do to football what happened to baseball.

We may have the Rooneys in charge but this will be an example of winning a battle and losing a war.

flippy
12-11-2008, 10:13 AM
I don't know about the demise of the franchise, but, having 17 partners really bothers me. Clearly, Dan Rooney and his son can't afford to buy the Steelers. If I were an investor in the Steelers I would want a say in what happens. I can't imagine how you assemble 17 people to discuss football operations.

Unless, they're basically floating bonds to the 17 investors which guarantees a return of the debt plus interest at some point in the future and these investors have no football operation input. Too many chefs will spoil the soup.

Yes Sir!

Pappy

We will look back and realize that the worst thing that ever happened to the Steelers is not selling to Druckenmiller. I'm sure the next collective bargaining agreement will eliminate or significantly modify the salary cap. In that case "fat cat" billionaire owners with sweet stadium deals will do to football what happened to baseball.

We may have the Rooneys in charge but this will be an example of winning a battle and losing a war.

Wouldn't be surprised if you are dead on.

Thats why we need to win now.

feltdizz
12-11-2008, 10:21 AM
Drunkenmiller expressed relief in not buying the Steelers.. said he loved money more then football... maybe it was to save face but I think he was being honest. It would have turned into nothing more then an investment to him IMO.

Now 17 people are a lot but but doubt they all get a say in day to day operations...
I think more then half of them are just bottom line, show me the money, type cats...

I doubt the NFL shows the owners box and you see 17 heads arguing in a press box.

papillon
12-11-2008, 10:40 AM
Drunkenmiller expressed relief in not buying the Steelers.. said he loved money more then football... maybe it was to save face but I think he was being honest. It would have turned into nothing more then an investment to him IMO.

Now 17 people are a lot but but doubt they all get a say in day to day operations...
I think more then half of them are just bottom line, show me the money, type cats...

I doubt the NFL shows the owners box and you see 17 heads arguing in a press box.

I don't think that will happen either; on the other hand, they are each posting about 33.5 million if the 570 million is correct. If I'm putting that scratch up for Dan Rooney I'm going to expect ROI. What that is I don't know, I doubt that bonds will work as I mentioned earlier, because, there's really no way to rate them for a football team. And, even if they could rate the bond they certainly would probably garner a "B" rating at best. Going to a football is expendable income and the economy is goint have an affect on the NFL as evidenced by the recent layoffs.

Teams will suffer as well, concessions will be down, merchandising will be down, etc., the cash stream isn't going to be what it was in the past.

Regardless, if I'm an investor, unless, I'm being guaranteed "X" amount of dollars in return for my initial investment of 33.5 million, I'm going to want to have a say in what goes on with the team to help protect my investment.

Yes Sir!

Papillon

Oviedo
12-11-2008, 11:02 AM
Drunkenmiller expressed relief in not buying the Steelers.. said he loved money more then football... maybe it was to save face but I think he was being honest. It would have turned into nothing more then an investment to him IMO.

Now 17 people are a lot but but doubt they all get a say in day to day operations...
I think more then half of them are just bottom line, show me the money, type cats...

I doubt the NFL shows the owners box and you see 17 heads arguing in a press box.

I don't think that will happen either; on the other hand, they are each posting about 33.5 million if the 570 million is correct. If I'm putting that scratch up for Dan Rooney I'm going to expect ROI. What that is I don't know, I doubt that bonds will work as I mentioned earlier, because, there's really no way to rate them for a football team. And, even if they could rate the bond they certainly would probably garner a "B" rating at best. Going to a football is expendable income and the economy is goint have an affect on the NFL as evidenced by the recent layoffs.

Teams will suffer as well, concessions will be down, merchandising will be down, etc., the cash stream isn't going to be what it was in the past.

Regardless, if I'm an investor, unless, I'm being guaranteed "X" amount of dollars in return for my initial investment of 33.5 million, I'm going to want to have a say in what goes on with the team to help protect my investment.

Yes Sir!

Papillon

I think you are right on a lot of points but I bet the majority of the income for the teams is based on TV money, Merchandise and concessions are probably #2 and tickets #3. I think the competitive advanatage between the teams are their stadium deals and knowing elected officials in Pittsburgh and their never ending desire to rape business I doubt the Steelers have one of the most favorable. This will put us at a huge disadvanatge if the cap goes away.

papillon
12-11-2008, 11:10 AM
Drunkenmiller expressed relief in not buying the Steelers.. said he loved money more then football... maybe it was to save face but I think he was being honest. It would have turned into nothing more then an investment to him IMO.

Now 17 people are a lot but but doubt they all get a say in day to day operations...
I think more then half of them are just bottom line, show me the money, type cats...

I doubt the NFL shows the owners box and you see 17 heads arguing in a press box.

I don't think that will happen either; on the other hand, they are each posting about 33.5 million if the 570 million is correct. If I'm putting that scratch up for Dan Rooney I'm going to expect ROI. What that is I don't know, I doubt that bonds will work as I mentioned earlier, because, there's really no way to rate them for a football team. And, even if they could rate the bond they certainly would probably garner a "B" rating at best. Going to a football is expendable income and the economy is goint have an affect on the NFL as evidenced by the recent layoffs.

Teams will suffer as well, concessions will be down, merchandising will be down, etc., the cash stream isn't going to be what it was in the past.

Regardless, if I'm an investor, unless, I'm being guaranteed "X" amount of dollars in return for my initial investment of 33.5 million, I'm going to want to have a say in what goes on with the team to help protect my investment.

Yes Sir!

Papillon

I think you are right on a lot of points but I bet the majority of the income for the teams is based on TV money, Merchandise and concessions are probably #2 and tickets #3. I think the competitive advanatage between the teams are their stadium deals and knowing elected officials in Pittsburgh and their never ending desire to rape business I doubt the Steelers have one of the most favorable. This will put us at a huge disadvanatge if the cap goes away.

You're probably right about the TV rights and revenue. I don't know when that deal will have to be renegotiated, but, I doubt it will be as lucrative as the current deal, unless, the economy makes a huge turnaround very soon.

Allegheny County and the City of Pittsburgh certainly make life miserable for business owners the Rooneys included. Hopefully, it won't impact the Steelers, but, hard to imagine that it won't.

Yes Sir!

Pappy

ANPSTEEL
12-11-2008, 12:29 PM
its funny you guys picked up on the same issue i had, within that article.

the number 17-

I cant imagine that Dan woke up one day and said to himself- I think we should get an additional 17 opinions regarding day to day operations.

Now, I am pretty certain that those 17 entities dont have an equal say in operations, and I am sure Dan will still run the team; but there is absolutely no way those investors don't have some degree of expectation in return for their money.

does $33.5 mil get you a really nice luxury box? maybe it comes with a stripper pole???
heck, throw in a couple golf tournaments~


Anyway you look at it, you come to the same conclusion.

the rooneys are struggling to continue to afford the team, under the constraints placed by the league.

An organization saddled with overwhelming debt, is not a good organization.

The Rooneys have concocted a plan to retain ownership of the family business. But in doing so, may have only managed to slow down the inevitable.

I for one would have preferred the team being sold to Drunkenmiller than what ever contrived ownership structure is currently being negotiated.

1 with no debt is preferable to 19 with $600mil in debt.

The Steelers are going to have to make some operations changes in efforts to afford the servicing of that obligation. Hopefully those changes don't affect the guys on the field, or the location of the team.

RuthlessBurgher
12-11-2008, 01:12 PM
I don't know about the demise of the franchise, but, having 17 partners really bothers me. Clearly, Dan Rooney and his son can't afford to buy the Steelers. If I were an investor in the Steelers I would want a say in what happens. I can't imagine how you assemble 17 people to discuss football operations.

Unless, they're basically floating bonds to the 17 investors which guarantees a return of the debt plus interest at some point in the future and these investors have no football operation input. Too many chefs will spoil the soup.

Yes Sir!

Pappy

The 17 investors will not have a say in the day-to-day operations of the club. The McGinley family has owned 20% of the team for decades, but those have always been non-voting shares in the team, and that has never been an issue.

papillon
12-11-2008, 02:31 PM
I don't know about the demise of the franchise, but, having 17 partners really bothers me. Clearly, Dan Rooney and his son can't afford to buy the Steelers. If I were an investor in the Steelers I would want a say in what happens. I can't imagine how you assemble 17 people to discuss football operations.

Unless, they're basically floating bonds to the 17 investors which guarantees a return of the debt plus interest at some point in the future and these investors have no football operation input. Too many chefs will spoil the soup.

Yes Sir!

Pappy

The 17 investors will not have a say in the day-to-day operations of the club. The McGinley family has owned 20% of the team for decades, but those have always been non-voting shares in the team, and that has never been an issue.

The McGinleys are family and were life long friends of The Chief. The money that they have made by being Art Rooney Srs. friend is stuff of legend. They never wanted anything to do with running the football team, only to be associated with it as an owner and it cost them almost nothing to get involved. Mostly, it cost them faith in Art senior.

The 17 "new" investors aren't going to be as philanthropic or passe in their ownership. While I realize that 18 people really can't be involved in the day-to-day business of the Steelers, they are going to have some expectation of ROI for their investment. These "new owners" are going to want to manage their investment in some fashion. Thirty three million isn't chump change and I have to assume that this "cash on hand" for them and not a loan of any sort.

I can't imagine that the NFL would allow investors to go in debt, so that, Dan Rooney can go in debt to purchase the team. Maybe, they have to put up a specific amount of the fee, prove they have the rest available and then can get a collateralized loan for the differerence if they so choose.

Art Rooney senior had too many kids... :P

Yes Sir!

Pappy

feltdizz
12-11-2008, 04:27 PM
If I'm investing 33.5 Million then I want a guarantee on my return... surely these investors were told they would see X amount of dollars... butthese guys will have input into drafting a player or trading a player, merchandising and promotional material is what I see them talking about.. or a golf tournament..LOL.

I'm sure there are understandings in place about who controls the day to day and who the face of the Steelers are. Now 10 or 20 years from now.. sure we could see some movement within the ranks or a power play for control when someone within the 17 wants out....