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Mr Smartmonies
07-21-2008, 01:37 PM
Jom, I could not find that thread where we were discussing Palmer and Ben. You had asked me how many of Ben's longer throws were a result of just his recievers being good runners after the catch. I had no stat at the time that I could give you. But I just happened to stumble across the article below on one of those scout .com sites. The first paragraph answers your question.

Passing yards at the catch


An overlooked category that should be considered anytime you're comparing quarterbacks is how much yardage is gained by the length of their completed throws versus how much they're being helped by the receivers who tack on yards while running with the ball after the catch. Among quarterbacks with at least 1000 pass attempts over the past four years, Roethlisberger is second only to Peyton Manning in yards-at-the-catch average with 7.7 yards versus the Colts quarterbacks' 7.9 yards. By comparison, the Patriots' Tom Brady is 12th at 6.8 yards.

Below you'll see how Roethlisberger's numbers after four seasons compare with the Colts' Peyton Manning, the Dolphins' Dan Marino, the Broncos' John Elway, the Patriots' Tom Brady, the Bills' Jim Kelly, the Cowboys' Troy Aikman, the Packers' Brett Favre and the 49ers' Joe Montana when they were each entering their fifth NFL season. While other amazing quarterbacks such as Steve Young were certainly deserving to be in the mix, the eight quarterbacks selected will provide a valid point of reference

Yards: Roethlisberger's 11,673 yards isn't in the same arena with Manning's 16,418 or Marino's 16,177. But it's good enough for fourth place behind Kelly's 12,901 yards. That means that the Pittsburgh QB finished higher than Aikman (10,527), Favre (10,412), Brady (10,233), and Montana (8,069).


Completion Percent: Roethlisberger's 63.2 percent completion rate is better than any of the elite eight's completion percentages after four seasons. He barely nudged out Joe Montana (63.1) and is just slightly ahead of Brett Favre (62.3). Tom Brady (61.9), Peyton Manning (61.0), Dan Marino (60.9), Troy Aikman (60.2) and Jim Kelly (59.2) weren't far behind, but John Elway (54.0) completed almost ten percent less of his passes than Roethlisberger.

Touchdowns: If you compare the quarterbacks based on total touchdown passes over their first four seasons, Big Ben places third with 84 scores behind Marino (142) and Manning (111). But he is second only to Marino in the percent of his passes resulting in a touchdown with 5.8 percent compared to the former Dolphin great's 6.9 percent. Manning tossed an even 5.0 percent for touchdowns, third-best out of the group. Joe Montana put up just 52 scores but that was 4.6 percent of the passes he threw during his first four years. Brady had 69 TD passes (4.5 percent), Favre posted 70 (4.4 percent), Elway threw 66 (3.8 percent), Kelly logged 81 (3.6 percent) and Aikman had 54 (3.5 percent).

Passer rating: Roethlisberger's 92.5 score after four seasons places him second in this group behind Dan Marino (95.2). Montana placed third with a rating of 88.0, followed by Brady (85.9), Favre (85.2), Manning (85.1), Kelly (82.7), Aikman (76.4), and the late-blooming Elway (71.9).

Shawn
07-21-2008, 01:42 PM
Yea! What MSM said biznitch. :lol:

Oviedo
07-21-2008, 02:07 PM
Jom, I could not find that thread where we were discussing Palmer and Ben. You had asked me how many of Ben's longer throws were a result of just his recievers being good runners after the catch. I had no stat at the time that I could give you. But I just happened to stumble across the article below on one of those scout .com sites. The first paragraph answers your question.

Passing yards at the catch


An overlooked category that should be considered anytime you're comparing quarterbacks is how much yardage is gained by the length of their completed throws versus how much they're being helped by the receivers who tack on yards while running with the ball after the catch. Among quarterbacks with at least 1000 pass attempts over the past four years, Roethlisberger is second only to Peyton Manning in yards-at-the-catch average with 7.7 yards versus the Colts quarterbacks' 7.9 yards. By comparison, the Patriots' Tom Brady is 12th at 6.8 yards.

Below you'll see how Roethlisberger's numbers after four seasons compare with the Colts' Peyton Manning, the Dolphins' Dan Marino, the Broncos' John Elway, the Patriots' Tom Brady, the Bills' Jim Kelly, the Cowboys' Troy Aikman, the Packers' Brett Favre and the 49ers' Joe Montana when they were each entering their fifth NFL season. While other amazing quarterbacks such as Steve Young were certainly deserving to be in the mix, the eight quarterbacks selected will provide a valid point of reference

Yards: Roethlisberger's 11,673 yards isn't in the same arena with Manning's 16,418 or Marino's 16,177. But it's good enough for fourth place behind Kelly's 12,901 yards. That means that the Pittsburgh QB finished higher than Aikman (10,527), Favre (10,412), Brady (10,233), and Montana (8,069).


Completion Percent: Roethlisberger's 63.2 percent completion rate is better than any of the elite eight's completion percentages after four seasons. He barely nudged out Joe Montana (63.1) and is just slightly ahead of Brett Favre (62.3). Tom Brady (61.9), Peyton Manning (61.0), Dan Marino (60.9), Troy Aikman (60.2) and Jim Kelly (59.2) weren't far behind, but John Elway (54.0) completed almost ten percent less of his passes than Roethlisberger.

Touchdowns: If you compare the quarterbacks based on total touchdown passes over their first four seasons, Big Ben places third with 84 scores behind Marino (142) and Manning (111). But he is second only to Marino in the percent of his passes resulting in a touchdown with 5.8 percent compared to the former Dolphin great's 6.9 percent. Manning tossed an even 5.0 percent for touchdowns, third-best out of the group. Joe Montana put up just 52 scores but that was 4.6 percent of the passes he threw during his first four years. Brady had 69 TD passes (4.5 percent), Favre posted 70 (4.4 percent), Elway threw 66 (3.8 percent), Kelly logged 81 (3.6 percent) and Aikman had 54 (3.5 percent).

Passer rating: Roethlisberger's 92.5 score after four seasons places him second in this group behind Dan Marino (95.2). Montana placed third with a rating of 88.0, followed by Brady (85.9), Favre (85.2), Manning (85.1), Kelly (82.7), Aikman (76.4), and the late-blooming Elway (71.9).

I assume that Carson Palmer wasn't even in the same area code on some of these.

Oviedo
07-21-2008, 02:09 PM
Jom, I could not find that thread where we were discussing Palmer and Ben. You had asked me how many of Ben's longer throws were a result of just his recievers being good runners after the catch. I had no stat at the time that I could give you. But I just happened to stumble across the article below on one of those scout .com sites. The first paragraph answers your question.

Passing yards at the catch


An overlooked category that should be considered anytime you're comparing quarterbacks is how much yardage is gained by the length of their completed throws versus how much they're being helped by the receivers who tack on yards while running with the ball after the catch. Among quarterbacks with at least 1000 pass attempts over the past four years, Roethlisberger is second only to Peyton Manning in yards-at-the-catch average with 7.7 yards versus the Colts quarterbacks' 7.9 yards. By comparison, the Patriots' Tom Brady is 12th at 6.8 yards.

Below you'll see how Roethlisberger's numbers after four seasons compare with the Colts' Peyton Manning, the Dolphins' Dan Marino, the Broncos' John Elway, the Patriots' Tom Brady, the Bills' Jim Kelly, the Cowboys' Troy Aikman, the Packers' Brett Favre and the 49ers' Joe Montana when they were each entering their fifth NFL season. While other amazing quarterbacks such as Steve Young were certainly deserving to be in the mix, the eight quarterbacks selected will provide a valid point of reference

Yards: Roethlisberger's 11,673 yards isn't in the same arena with Manning's 16,418 or Marino's 16,177. But it's good enough for fourth place behind Kelly's 12,901 yards. That means that the Pittsburgh QB finished higher than Aikman (10,527), Favre (10,412), Brady (10,233), and Montana (8,069).


Completion Percent: Roethlisberger's 63.2 percent completion rate is better than any of the elite eight's completion percentages after four seasons. He barely nudged out Joe Montana (63.1) and is just slightly ahead of Brett Favre (62.3). Tom Brady (61.9), Peyton Manning (61.0), Dan Marino (60.9), Troy Aikman (60.2) and Jim Kelly (59.2) weren't far behind, but John Elway (54.0) completed almost ten percent less of his passes than Roethlisberger.

Touchdowns: If you compare the quarterbacks based on total touchdown passes over their first four seasons, Big Ben places third with 84 scores behind Marino (142) and Manning (111). But he is second only to Marino in the percent of his passes resulting in a touchdown with 5.8 percent compared to the former Dolphin great's 6.9 percent. Manning tossed an even 5.0 percent for touchdowns, third-best out of the group. Joe Montana put up just 52 scores but that was 4.6 percent of the passes he threw during his first four years. Brady had 69 TD passes (4.5 percent), Favre posted 70 (4.4 percent), Elway threw 66 (3.8 percent), Kelly logged 81 (3.6 percent) and Aikman had 54 (3.5 percent).

Passer rating: Roethlisberger's 92.5 score after four seasons places him second in this group behind Dan Marino (95.2). Montana placed third with a rating of 88.0, followed by Brady (85.9), Favre (85.2), Manning (85.1), Kelly (82.7), Aikman (76.4), and the late-blooming Elway (71.9).



I assume that Carson Palmer wasn't even in the same area code on some of these. No doubt Palmer is a "good" NFL QB, but he isn't the player that the hype makes him out to be Heisman not withstanding

stlrz d
07-21-2008, 02:40 PM
Got a link for this?

I can think of a few places where I'd like to share it! :Clap

Ozey74
07-21-2008, 03:00 PM
Got a link for this?

I can think of a few places where I'd like to share it! :Clap


Yes, I second the request for the link!!

SteelerNation1
07-21-2008, 08:18 PM
Here's the link. This is a great article. I meant to post it a few days ago.

http://pit.scout.com/a.z?s=68&p=2&c=770206

Ozey74
07-21-2008, 08:30 PM
Here's the link. This is a great article. I meant to post it a few days ago.

http://pit.scout.com/a.z?s=68&p=2&c=770206

Thank you!! Excellent peice....

stlrz d
07-21-2008, 08:31 PM
Here's the link. This is a great article. I meant to post it a few days ago.

http://pit.scout.com/a.z?s=68&p=2&c=770206

Thank you!

I like this bit too:


Passing against the blitz: Roethlisberger keeps his cool in the face of danger and remains confident that he can make a play despite the added pressure. It's a a trait that is both a blessing and a curse for the Steelers QB.

Believing that he can make a play with players breathing down his neck certainly contributed to Roethlisberger's 17 sacks in blitz situations. And that put him in a tie with Chicago Bears QB Rex Grossman and the New York Jets' Kellen Clemens for the most times dropped to the turf when facing the blitz last season. But that same determination and optimism helped him finish second in the league in passer rating (105.8 ) in that same situation. Brady was the only quarterback to handle the blitz better, posting a 118.7 rating.

BIG FAN
07-22-2008, 01:29 AM
Excellent post, I'm not much of a stat freak but a good read.
Nice job!

Jom112
07-22-2008, 10:19 AM
Nice article MSM. As for the Yard at the Catch, it would be interesting to see how it was for the first four seasons and not just 2007. The writer appears to show certain stats for 2007 and chooses to focus on other stats for the first four years.



I assume that Carson Palmer wasn't even in the same area code on some of these.

You shouldn't assume Oviedo.

Here are Carson's #'s. I used the first four years eventhough Carson didn't play his first season, so this is more what he did in three season's of play:

90.8 passer rating (Ben 92.5)

78 TD's (Ben 84 TD's)

63.67 Completion % (Ben 63.2)

10,768 Yards (Ben 11,637)

43 INT's (Ben 54)

Seems about the same as Ben in all those categories. If you use the first four seasons that Palmer played here are the #'s:

90.1 passer rating

104 TD's

64.1 Completion %

14,899 Yards

63 INT's (Ben 54)

But it's hard to compare years 1-4 to someone else's 2-5. Eitherway I would say both QB's stats are comparable...

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
07-22-2008, 12:20 PM
Nice article MSM. As for the Yard at the Catch, it would be interesting to see how it was for the first four seasons and not just 2007. The writer appears to show certain stats for 2007 and chooses to focus on other stats for the first four years.



I assume that Carson Palmer wasn't even in the same area code on some of these.

You shouldn't assume Oviedo.

Here are Carson's #'s. I used the first four years eventhough Carson didn't play his first season, so this is more what he did in three season's of play:

90.8 passer rating (Ben 92.5)

78 TD's (Ben 84 TD's)

63.67 Completion % (Ben 63.2)

10,768 Yards (Ben 11,637)

43 INT's (Ben 54)

Seems about the same as Ben in all those categories. If you use the first four seasons that Palmer played here are the #'s:

90.1 passer rating

104 TD's

64.1 Completion %

14,899 Yards

63 INT's (Ben 54)

But it's hard to compare years 1-4 to someone else's 2-5. Eitherway I would say both QB's stats are comparable...

Both QB's stats may be comparable, but I think you can also consider Ben's 2006 season an aberration. For whatever reason - be it the motorcycle accident, the surgery a week before the season started, mental fatigue from a near death experience, or anything else - Ben had a season that we can justifiably argue that was so subpar that it will not be repeated in the foreseeable future.

So now, take those numbers out of the mix and what do you have?

2004 - unexpectedly thrust into the starting lineup in week two, leads team to 15-1 record and has the greatest season for any rookie QB in history.

2005 - Youngest QB to ever lead his team to SB victory. Youngest both in terms of age and experience (second year).

2006 - expletive deleted :lol:

2007 - Pro Bowl season in which he set team record in passing yardage and QB rating, having the second highest rating in the league behind Brady, and third highest TD total in a run happy offense. He also led the team to the playoffs for the third time in his four year career - '06 being the only year in which he didn't.

I know that you can give Palmer some leeway too - maybe eliminate the first half of '06 due to his return from injury - but I don't think that you can still rate him with Ben. IMO Ben is reaching for the "elite" tier where currently only Brady and Manning reside. After that, there is the group of very good QBs which include guys such as Palmer, Romo, Brees etc. I see Ben as the only tweener between those two tiers right now.

Mr Smartmonies
07-22-2008, 01:20 PM
Nice article MSM. As for the Yard at the Catch, it would be interesting to see how it was for the first four seasons and not just 2007. The writer appears to show certain stats for 2007 and chooses to focus on other stats for the first four years.

[...


Among quarterbacks with at least 1000 pass attempts over the past four years, Roethlisberger is second only to Peyton Manning in yards-at-the-catch average with 7.7 yards versus the Colts quarterbacks' 7.9 yards

Jom112
07-22-2008, 01:43 PM
Nice article MSM. As for the Yard at the Catch, it would be interesting to see how it was for the first four seasons and not just 2007. The writer appears to show certain stats for 2007 and chooses to focus on other stats for the first four years.

[...


Among quarterbacks with at least 1000 pass attempts over the past four years, Roethlisberger is second only to Peyton Manning in yards-at-the-catch average with 7.7 yards versus the Colts quarterbacks' 7.9 yards

Not sure how I missed that. All I can say it's been a very long weekend. :Beer
(Especially considering it's tuesday now)

Anyway, thanks for the stats. I will admit it's definitely not something I expected. Would you happen to know what the RAC is for the Steeler receivers compared to other receivers?

Mr Smartmonies
07-22-2008, 08:36 PM
Nice article MSM. As for the Yard at the Catch, it would be interesting to see how it was for the first four seasons and not just 2007. The writer appears to show certain stats for 2007 and chooses to focus on other stats for the first four years.

[...


Among quarterbacks with at least 1000 pass attempts over the past four years, Roethlisberger is second only to Peyton Manning in yards-at-the-catch average with 7.7 yards versus the Colts quarterbacks' 7.9 yards

Not sure how I missed that. All I can say it's been a very long weekend. :Beer
(Especially considering it's tuesday now)

Anyway, thanks for the stats. I will admit it's definitely not something I expected. Would you happen to know what the RAC is for the Steeler receivers compared to other receivers?

RAC? I'm assuming you mean YAC?

NFL Yards after Catch

1 Green Bay Packers 2294
2 New Orleans Saints 2112
3 New England Patriots 2052
4 Seattle Seahawks 1873
5 Chicago Bears 1858
6 Atlanta Falcons 1824
7 Philadelphia Eagles 1813
8 Dallas Cowboys 1767
9 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 1764
10 Denver Broncos 1699
11 Cincinnati Bengals 1655
12 Detroit Lions 1650
13 Indianapolis Colts 1620
14 Arizona Cardinals 1616
15 Miami Dolphins 1612
16 Kansas City Chiefs 1596
17 Washington Redskins 1570
18 Cleveland Browns 1520
19 Buffalo Bills 1465
20 New York Jets 1461
21 San Diego Chargers 1423
22 Carolina Panthers 1398
23 Baltimore Ravens 1398
24 New York Giants 1392
25 Houston Texans 1387
26 Tennessee Titans 1382
27 Oakland Raiders 1367
28 St. Louis Rams 1364
29 Minnesota Vikings 1358
30 Jacksonville Jaguars 1332
31 Pittsburgh Steelers 1294
32 San Francisco 49ers 1142

stlrz d
07-22-2008, 08:57 PM
I've heard some people refer to it as RAC too. RAC...YAC...same thing.

I didn't think ours would be the greatest, but I'm shocked to see us at 31...I didn't think it was that bad! :shock:

BIG FAN
07-22-2008, 09:04 PM
I've heard some people refer to it as RAC too. RAC...YAC...same thing.

I didn't think ours would be the greatest, but I'm shocked to see us at 31...I didn't think it was that bad! :shock:

RAC, used to be run after catch.
You are right.

Mr Smartmonies
07-22-2008, 09:32 PM
I've heard some people refer to it as RAC too. RAC...YAC...same thing.

I didn't think ours would be the greatest, but I'm shocked to see us at 31...I didn't think it was that bad! :shock:

In 2005 the steelers receivers were 5th best in Yards after catch.

BIG FAN
07-22-2008, 09:46 PM
[quote="stlrz d":9q1n70cg]I've heard some people refer to it as RAC too. RAC...YAC...same thing.

I didn't think ours would be the greatest, but I'm shocked to see us at 31...I didn't think it was that bad! :shock:

In 2005 the steelers receivers were 5th best in Yards after catch.[/quote:9q1n70cg]

We were also a sixth seed in the playoffs.
I must admit though you will sooner or much later get me into this stat thing.

proudpittsburgher
07-23-2008, 10:42 AM
[quote="stlrz d":2c3epr1w]I've heard some people refer to it as RAC too. RAC...YAC...same thing.

I didn't think ours would be the greatest, but I'm shocked to see us at 31...I didn't think it was that bad! :shock:

In 2005 the steelers receivers were 5th best in Yards after catch.[/quote:2c3epr1w]

Hmm, run after the catch. Reminds me of a certain Santonio Holmes . . .

. . . running after the catch for a TD . . .


. . . in overtime . . .


. . . to end the season with a win . . .


.. . and knock a certain team out of the playoffs . . .


. . . hm, which team was that again? :stirpot :bungalssuck

Jom112
07-23-2008, 11:08 AM
RAC, YAC, same difference...

I only asked for that because when you look at yards-at-catch it should be used in conjunction with yards-after-catch.

Sometimes it's deceptive because you could dump off to RB's like LT or Westbrook and they do all the work. Or like Peyton you can hit Dallas Clark in stride and he takes it for several more yards.

I am surprised that the Steelers are second to last in YAC. Do you guys think that's Bens fault or the receivers fault? Or both?

ikestops85
07-23-2008, 11:37 AM
RAC, YAC, same difference...

I only asked for that because when you look at yards-at-catch it should be used in conjunction with yards-after-catch.

Sometimes it's deceptive because you could dump off to RB's like LT or Westbrook and they do all the work. Or like Peyton you can hit Dallas Clark in stride and he takes it for several more yards.

I am surprised that the Steelers are second to last in YAC. Do you guys think that's Bens fault or the receivers fault? Or both?

I don't necessarily think it is anyones fault. The steelers average 4.59 YAC for each completion. By comparison the bengals average 4.43 YAC per completion. Green Bay has the best figure at 5.99 and the opposite end is the Texans with 4.0. So while this total yardage figure isn't impressive the actual average per completion is above average. I do agree that it has been better in previous years.

Mr Smartmonies
07-23-2008, 03:41 PM
RAC, YAC, same difference...

I only asked for that because when you look at yards-at-catch it should be used in conjunction with yards-after-catch.

Sometimes it's deceptive because you could dump off to RB's like LT or Westbrook and they do all the work. Or like Peyton you can hit Dallas Clark in stride and he takes it for several more yards.

I am surprised that the Steelers are second to last in YAC. Do you guys think that's Bens fault or the receivers fault? Or both?

In 2005, Ben threw fewer shorter passes then any QB in the league. Yet they were 5th best in YAC. Football outsiders did a study that showed how remarkable that was. They said the longer a QB throws the ball, the less YAC will be because you have to be very accurate on those long throws and it is just hard to do. But Ben was on the money. The study was tremendous. They also discussed his first down passing where they explained just how good it was and how there was no need for the Steelers to pass the ball anymore, because He was picking up 1st downs by throwing on first downs. They were never getting to third down. This past year YAC decrease has much to do with WArd and Nate Washington. Here is Ward last 4 years.

2004 5.0
2005 4.9
2006 4.7
2007 3.6 a sign of a great player , beginning to slow.