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Oviedo
07-16-2008, 01:27 PM
It must be something in the air or just boring times for sports editors.

Fox seems to have it right with Ben as #3.

http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/ja ... arterbacks (http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/jaguarjoe72/2008/07/15/Rating_the_quarterbacks)

They share my personal opinion about D. Anderson and Carson Palmer and state it exactly as I would have:

11. Derek Anderson, Browns. See David Garrard-except that Cleveland didn't make the playoffs last year and the Jags did. Like the Jags, expectations are high in Cleveland.

12. Carson Palmer, Bengals. Most magazines/analysts rate Palmer 3rd or 4th in their rankings, but what has he ever done to deserve that? He has two dynamite receivers and he can't lead that team to the playoffs?


Anderson will not repeat last year's performancethis season. Expect QB controvery in C-land by week 10. I would give Palmer the nod over Anderson and Garrard.

Jom112
07-16-2008, 01:33 PM
The guys says what has Palmer done but then he ranks Matt Ryan as the 19th best QB in the NFL. :shock:

Plus the guys is just a blogger, I don't even think he works for Fox Sports. Come on Oviedo you're better than this, posting "JaguarJoes" personal rankings...

RuthlessBurgher
07-16-2008, 01:34 PM
The guys says what has Palmer done but then he ranks Matt Ryan as the 19th best QB in the NFL.

I don't think I need to say anything else...

Derek Anderson ahead of Carson Palmer is just silly. What has Derek Anderson done?

Jigawatts
07-16-2008, 02:08 PM
The guys says what has Palmer done but then he ranks Matt Ryan as the 19th best QB in the NFL.

I don't think I need to say anything else...

Derek Anderson ahead of Carson Palmer is just silly. What has Derek Anderson done?

He's guilty of impersonating Shaggy.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/8/8a/250px-Shaggy_scooby_wnsd2.jpg

proudpittsburgher
07-17-2008, 10:02 AM
The guys says what has Palmer done but then he ranks Matt Ryan as the 19th best QB in the NFL. :shock:

Plus the guys is just a blogger, I don't even think he works for Fox Sports. Come on Oviedo you're better than this, posting "JaguarJoes" personal rankings...

I would agree with you, but if he's right, he's right. Blogger or not. This is all opinion, and each man is entitled to his opinion.

Shawn
07-17-2008, 10:06 AM
The guys says what has Palmer done but then he ranks Matt Ryan as the 19th best QB in the NFL. :shock:

Plus the guys is just a blogger, I don't even think he works for Fox Sports. Come on Oviedo you're better than this, posting "JaguarJoes" personal rankings...

No way on this green earth is Palmer the third best QB in the NFL. Seriously, you would take Palmer over Ben? Really? I don't think so. Have you ever seen Ben play without his starting WRs? He threw a terrific game with his #3 and #4 WRs as starters. Palmer has hit the playoffs once with Doush and Chad.

Oviedo
07-17-2008, 10:17 AM
The guys says what has Palmer done but then he ranks Matt Ryan as the 19th best QB in the NFL. :shock:

Plus the guys is just a blogger, I don't even think he works for Fox Sports. Come on Oviedo you're better than this, posting "JaguarJoes" personal rankings...

No way on this green earth is Palmer the third best QB in the NFL. Seriously, you would take Palmer over Ben? Really? I don't think so. Have you ever seen Ben play without his starting WRs? He threw a terrific game with his #3 and #4 WRs as starters. Palmer has hit the playoffs once with Doush and Chad.


I agree that while this is from a blogger this is a much more accurate assessment of the Top 5. After that, it really becomes jumbled. Palmer has had an embarassment of riches with regards to Johnson and TJ plus don't forget how good Henry was when playing. Yet he doesn't seem to get the job done. Maybe it is the team and the defense, but also mybe it is him.

A QB's job is to win. Manning did it without much of a defense until the last couple of years.

Jom112
07-17-2008, 10:33 AM
Such hate towards Carson. :nono

Anyway, we can get back into an endless Carson/Ben debate again but obviously you guys will favor Ben and I will favor Carson and that most likely wouldn't change.

All I can say is that both QB's have a good amount of targets this season. Both have had their one off season, so let's see who does better this season. You guys keep saying Ben doesn't have anyone to throw to but this season with Ward, Holmes, Sweed, Miller, Mendenhall and FWP you have no excuses.

Man, I can't wait for the season to start...

Shawn
07-17-2008, 10:36 AM
Such hate towards Carson. :nono

Anyway, we can get back into an endless Carson/Ben debate again but obviously you guys will favor Ben and I will favor Carson and that most likely wouldn't change.

All I can say is that both QB's have a good amount of targets this season. Both have had their one off season, so let's see who does better this season. You guys keep saying Ben doesn't have anyone to throw to but this season with Ward, Holmes, Sweed, Miller, Mendenhall and FWP you have no excuses.

Man, I can't wait for the season to start...

You probably said all of that with a straight face...which amazes me. What has Palmer done with the plethera of talent around him? Nothing. Nuff said...next debate.

Jom112
07-17-2008, 10:53 AM
You probably said all of that with a straight face...which amazes me. What has Palmer done with the plethera of talent around him? Nothing. Nuff said...next debate.

Alright SMG, I'll bite.

First you keep saying that Carson is only good because of the talent around him but did you ever stop to think that maybe he is the reason that the talent looks so good? What did TJ Housh do prior to Carson arriving?

In three seasons here are TJ's #'s without Carson:

2003 2 games 0 receptions 0 yards 0 TD
2002 16 games 41 receptions 492 yards 1 TD
2001 12 games 21 receptions 228 yards 0 TD

Then Carson takes over in 2004 and rest is history. Not all of this is because of Carson, but having that franchise QB who has been spending his offseasons training with TJ does help don't you think?

Next as talented as Chris Henry was he was only useful for one season in 2005. He was suspended on and off and injured on and off in 2006. In 2007 he missed half the season and when he came back it took him a while to come up to speed. He was dropping passes and giving up on balls. Anyone that watched the games knows that. I have said for years that a reliable, consistent #3 would be an improvement on Henry. I honestly would have taken Nate Washington over Henry the past two seasons.

Then you have Antonio Chatman, I don't think I need to explain the problem here.

Next is Tab Perry, who looked good in his rookie season but suffered a severe hip injury and missed way too many games. Tab Perry was molded to be that 3rd down option when Chris Perry went down and Chris Henry got suspended. His injury did hurt.

The next receiver in the list is Glen Holt, a receiver that was waived by the Dallas cowboys (Even with the zero depth at WR that they have). He's a return specialist and nothing more at this point. It would be like counting Alan Rossum as a WR threat.

Chad is great, but Ward has been just as dependable for you guys. I do love however how you guys always say Hines is a HOF worthy wide receiver, but then say Ben has nothing to throw to. Give Ward some credit in these debates. The only person you guys undervalue more in these debates is Heath Miller.

Then you take into account that the running game has been pathetic the past two seasons (Not to mention the defense) and you expect this team to win games??? Even our ST's have been horrid the past two seasons. So 8 and 7 wins with one of the leagues worst defenses, a subpar running game and subpar ST's play is pretty damn good IMHO.

I created a thread in the trash talk forum that go over the games logs of how Carson has done late in games, but no one wants to debate with me there. They want to point at passer ratings and stupid stats but don't want to argue the facts.

I didn't want to go down the route of making excuses but after hearing every single excuse in the book being made for Ben (Who I countless times have complimented), you guys leave me with no choice...

Shawn
07-17-2008, 11:12 AM
You probably said all of that with a straight face...which amazes me. What has Palmer done with the plethera of talent around him? Nothing. Nuff said...next debate.

Alright SMG, I'll bite.

First you keep saying that Carson is only good because of the talent around him but did you ever stop to think that maybe he is the reason that the talent looks so good? What did TJ Housh do prior to Carson arriving?

In three seasons here are TJ's #'s without Carson:

2003 2 games 0 receptions 0 yards 0 TD
2002 16 games 41 receptions 492 yards 1 TD
2001 12 games 21 receptions 228 yards 0 TD

Then Carson takes over in 2004 and rest is history. Not all of this is because of Carson, but having that franchise QB who has been spending his offseasons training with TJ does help don't you think?

Next as talented as Chris Henry was he was only useful for one season in 2005. He was suspended on and off and injured on and off in 2006. In 2007 he missed half the season and when he came back it took him a while to come up to speed. He was dropping passes and giving up on balls. Anyone that watched the games knows that. I have said for years that a reliable, consistent #3 would be an improvement on Henry. I honestly would have taken Nate Washington over Henry the past two season.

Then you have Antonio Chatman, I don't think I need to explain the problem here.

Next is Tab Perry, who looked good in his rookie season but suffered a severe hip injury and missed way too many games. Tab Perry was molded to be that 3rd down option when Chris Perry went down and Chris Henry got suspended. His injury did hurt.

The next receiver in the list is Glen Holt, a receiver that was waived by the Dallas cowboys (Even with the zero depth at WR that they have). He's a return specialist and nothing more at this point. It would be like counting Alan Rossum as a WR threat.

Chad is great, but Ward has been just as dependable for you guys.

Then you take into account that the running game has been pathetic (Not to mention the defense) and you expect this team to win games???

I created a thread in the trash talk forum that go over the games logs of how Carson has done late in games, but no one wants to debate with me there. They want to point at passer ratings and stupid stats but don't want to argue the facts.

I didn't want to go down the route of making excuses but after hearing every single excuse in the book being made for Ben (Who I countless times have complimented), you guys leave me with no choice...

Last time I checked...passer ratings and stats are indeed facts. Another fact...Ben has been in significantly more playoff games and has won a SB. So, if stats and accomplishments don't determine skill...what does? Please give me some "facts" that would allow us to assess Carsons "skill".

Jom112
07-17-2008, 11:45 AM
Last time I checked...passer ratings and stats are indeed facts. Another fact...Ben has been in significantly more playoff games and has won a SB. So, if stats and accomplishments don't determine skill...what does? Please give me some "facts" that would allow us to assess Carsons "skill".

So you pick at one line if the whole post and focus on that? And semantics nonetheless.

That comment was made because "passer rating" in the fourth quarter doesnt take into account running the clock out at the end of games or spiking the football. If you look at the actual game logs then you can see how Carson performed.

So while I agree passer ratings are facts, the actual game logs would be a better indication of how Carson actually did in those games, wouldn't you agree?

Here is the thread BTW, that discusses how Palmer performed late in games:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1144 (http://www.planetsteelers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1144)

I finally got one answer (that responds to the topic) from Ike, but unfortunatley it's more passer ratings. :HeadBanger

Also from a statistical standpoint (Passing Yards, Completion %, Passer Rating, # of TD's, etc...), Carson has always looked good with the exception of last season. So we can talk stats if you want to but really do you want to go down that road again?

stlrz d
07-17-2008, 02:00 PM
Chris Henry played in 2005...wasn't that Palmer's best season? 8)

ikestops85
07-17-2008, 02:16 PM
Last time I checked...passer ratings and stats are indeed facts. Another fact...Ben has been in significantly more playoff games and has won a SB. So, if stats and accomplishments don't determine skill...what does? Please give me some "facts" that would allow us to assess Carsons "skill".

So you pick at one line if the whole post and focus on that? And semantics nonetheless.

That comment was made because "passer rating" in the fourth quarter doesnt take into account running the clock out at the end of games or spiking the football. If you look at the actual game logs then you can see how Carson performed.

So while I agree passer ratings are facts, the actual game logs would be a better indication of how Carson actually did in those games, wouldn't you agree?

Here is the thread BTW, that discusses how Palmer performed late in games:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1144 (http://www.planetsteelers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1144)

I finally got one answer (that responds to the topic) from Ike, but unfortunatley it's more passer ratings. :HeadBanger

Also from a statistical standpoint (Passing Yards, Completion %, Passer Rating, # of TD's, etc...), Carson has always looked good with the exception of last season. So we can talk stats if you want to but really do you want to go down that road again?

Joms, I realize that passer rating does not begin to cover everything regarding a QB's performance late in games. For example, it doesn't include the QB's scrambling ability or running for a first down and getting out of bounds. It is a good starting point to see how a QB does as a PASSER in these circumstances. Not how he does as a leader.

That's why in my post I said I hadn't done a lot of research on it. However the research I did shows Carson is nothing special either in the 4th quarter or when within 7 points in the 4th quarter. In only 1 of his 4 years of playing did he show significant improvement in his passer rating for those categories. In most cases he was surprisingly ordinary.

You can't just list a few games where the rest of the team let him down as proof. I remember a Steeler game where he was handed the game in the 4th quarter on fumbles by Parker and Coclough (sp). I agree that going over each game log would be a more viable way but far too tedious for me. :2c

Jom112
07-17-2008, 02:47 PM
Chris Henry played in 2005...wasn't that Palmer's best season? 8)

31 receptions 422 yards and 6 TD's in 2005 for Henry. Like I said we don't need a stud #3 receiver just the same one each week.

Look at Nate Washington's #'s the last couple of seasons:

2007: 29 receptions 450 yards 5 TD's
2006: 35 receptions 624 yards 4 TD's

So you're telling me Washington is garbage but Carson is luckly to have Chris Henry? Even Cedric Wilson can put up similar #'s to that...



Joms, I realize that passer rating does not begin to cover everything regarding a QB's performance late in games. For example, it doesn't include the QB's scrambling ability or running for a first down and getting out of bounds. It is a good starting point to see how a QB does as a PASSER in these circumstances. Not how he does as a leader.

That's why in my post I said I hadn't done a lot of research on it. However the research I did shows Carson is nothing special either in the 4th quarter or when within 7 points in the 4th quarter. In only 1 of his 4 years of playing did he show significant improvement in his passer rating for those categories. In most cases he was surprisingly ordinary.

You can't just list a few games where the rest of the team let him down as proof. I remember a Steeler game where he was handed the game in the 4th quarter on fumbles by Parker and Coclough (sp). I agree that going over each game log would be a more viable way but far too tedious for me. :2c

That is only one stat Ike. And one of the "average" seasons that you talk about his passer rating was 91.9. 91.9 is not average.

Also here are some more stats for you:

Behind by 9-16 Points
Carson 90.8
Ben 84.4

When the game is tied
Carson 100.5
Ben 89.2

Which is why I posted the game logs of the games that were in question. They showed how Carson actually played.

I'm trying to avoid using just stats because from a purely statistical standpoint Carson has done better than Ben in 3 out of the 4 seasons that each have played...

Shawn
07-17-2008, 04:48 PM
Last time I checked...passer ratings and stats are indeed facts. Another fact...Ben has been in significantly more playoff games and has won a SB. So, if stats and accomplishments don't determine skill...what does? Please give me some "facts" that would allow us to assess Carsons "skill".

So you pick at one line if the whole post and focus on that? And semantics nonetheless.

That comment was made because "passer rating" in the fourth quarter doesnt take into account running the clock out at the end of games or spiking the football. If you look at the actual game logs then you can see how Carson performed.

So while I agree passer ratings are facts, the actual game logs would be a better indication of how Carson actually did in those games, wouldn't you agree?

Here is the thread BTW, that discusses how Palmer performed late in games:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1144 (http://www.planetsteelers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1144)

I finally got one answer (that responds to the topic) from Ike, but unfortunatley it's more passer ratings. :HeadBanger

Also from a statistical standpoint (Passing Yards, Completion %, Passer Rating, # of TD's, etc...), Carson has always looked good with the exception of last season. So we can talk stats if you want to but really do you want to go down that road again?

I picked the one line because it was really the only one that made sense.

And yes I want to talk stats.

Super Bowl Victories:

Ben-1
Palmer-0

Nuff said.

Shawn
07-17-2008, 04:54 PM
PS...it really irritates me that you are making me look up stats but I think last years numbers are fairly telling.

Ben- 32TDs 11 ints passer rating of 104.1 yards 3,154
Carson- Passer rating of 86.7... yards...4,131 26 tds 20 ints

I don't know but Bens look quite a bit better to me.

stlrz d
07-17-2008, 06:35 PM
Chris Henry played in 2005...wasn't that Palmer's best season? 8)

31 receptions 422 yards and 6 TD's in 2005 for Henry. Like I said we don't need a stud #3 receiver just the same one each week.

Look at Nate Washington's #'s the last couple of seasons:

2007: 29 receptions 450 yards 5 TD's
2006: 35 receptions 624 yards 4 TD's

So you're telling me Washington is garbage but Carson is luckly to have Chris Henry? Even Cedric Wilson can put up similar #'s to that...



No, what I'm saying is with Chris Henry opening things up it helps him, as it should any QB, but without Henry...not so much.

Meanwhile, as has been pointed out on this thread already, Ben has gotten it done even without his starting receivers in the lineup.

Ozey74
07-17-2008, 08:21 PM
[quote="stlrz d":1g3j5shd]Chris Henry played in 2005...wasn't that Palmer's best season? 8)

31 receptions 422 yards and 6 TD's in 2005 for Henry. Like I said we don't need a stud #3 receiver just the same one each week.

Look at Nate Washington's #'s the last couple of seasons:

2007: 29 receptions 450 yards 5 TD's
2006: 35 receptions 624 yards 4 TD's

So you're telling me Washington is garbage but Carson is luckly to have Chris Henry? Even Cedric Wilson can put up similar #'s to that...




Meanwhile, as has been pointed out on this thread already, Ben has gotten it done even without his starting receivers in the lineup.[/quote:1g3j5shd]

Stlrz d is correct. Check the stat line of the Steelers/Seahawks game last year and check out how Ward & Holmes did........

Mr Smartmonies
07-17-2008, 08:36 PM
Last time I checked...passer ratings and stats are indeed facts. Another fact...Ben has been in significantly more playoff games and has won a SB. So, if stats and accomplishments don't determine skill...what does? Please give me some "facts" that would allow us to assess Carsons "skill".

So you pick at one line if the whole post and focus on that? And semantics nonetheless.

That comment was made because "passer rating" in the fourth quarter doesnt take into account running the clock out at the end of games or spiking the football. If you look at the actual game logs then you can see how Carson performed.

So while I agree passer ratings are facts, the actual game logs would be a better indication of how Carson actually did in those games, wouldn't you agree?



Bengals vs Bills I pick this game cause I can remember losing a bet on the Bengals. :(

4th QTR (Bengals up 21 -16 start of 4TH QTR)

9-R.Lindell kicks 75 yards from BUF 30 to CIN -5. 16-G.Holt, Touchback.
1-10-CIN 20 (13:54) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete deep right to 85-C.Johnson (56-K.Ellison, 37-G.Wilson). Pass tipped at CIN 32 by K.Ellison, nearly intercepted by G.Wilson at CIN 37.
2-10-CIN 20 (13:47) 33-K.Watson right guard to CIN 22 for 2 yards (37-G.Wilson).
3-8-CIN 22 (13:05) (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete
Larson punts

1-10-CIN 8 (11:24) 32-R.Johnson left guard to CIN 5 for -3 yards (90-C.Kelsay).
2-13-CIN 5 (10:46) 9-C.Palmer pass short left to 82-R.Kelly to CIN 13 for 8 yards (33-J.Greer, 55-A.Crowell). Caught in flat at CIN 10.
3-5-CIN 13 (10:08) (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete
Larson punts

1-10-CIN 26 (5:45) 9-C.Palmer pass short left to 33-K.Watson to CIN 38 for 12 yards (55-A.Crowell). Screen, caught at CIN 27.
1-10-CIN 38 (5:12) (No Huddle) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short middle to 16-G.Holt [27-C.Wire]. Underthrown, receiver at CIN 48.
2-10-CIN 38 (5:08) (No Huddle) 33-K.Watson left guard to CIN 41 for 3 yards (93-A.Hargrove, 37-G.Wilson).
3-7-CIN 41 (4:26) (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short right to 16-G.Holt (24-T.McGee). Receiver and coverage along sideline at CIN 46. Pressure on QB: A.Hargrove.
Larson punts

4th possession in 4th QTR , Buffalo now plays prevent

1-10-CIN 22 (2:14) 9-C.Palmer scrambles right end pushed ob at CIN 29 for 7 yards (55-A.Crowell).
2-3-CIN 29 (2:06) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 86-D.Coats to CIN 39 for 10 yards (93-A.Hargrove; 55-A.Crowell). Caught at CIN 36.
Two-Minute Warning
1-10-CIN 39 (1:59) 9- C.Palmer pass incomplete deep left to 85-C.Johnson. CIN-85-C.Johnson was injured during the play. Removed from field on stretcher. Thrown wide of receiver at BUF 38.
Timeout #3 by CIN at 01:53.
2-10-CIN 39 (1:53) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short middle (97-J.McCargo). Pass batted at line.
3-10-CIN 39 (1:48) (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass short left to 33-K.Watson pushed ob at BUF 45 for 16 yards (94-A.Schobel). Screen, caught at CIN 34.
1-10-BUF 45 (1:41) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 86-D.Coats to BUF 36 for 9 yards (25-K.Thomas, 93-A.Hargrove). Caught at BUF37.
2-1-BUF 36 (1:21) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass short right to 33-K.Watson to BUF 28 for 8 yards (55-A.Crowell).
1-10-BUF 28 (:56) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short left to 84-T.Houshmandzadeh. Dropped, receiver in flat at BUF 22.
2-10-BUF 28 (:51) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 27-D.Dorsey to BUF 19 for 9 yards (55-A.Crowell). Dump pass, caught at BUF 25.
3-1-BUF 19 (:29) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 10-M.Maxwell to BUF 14 for 5 yards (33-J.Greer). Slant pattern, caught at BUF 14.
1-10-BUF 14 (:18) 9-C.Palmer spiked the ball to stop the clock.
2-10-BUF 14 (:18) 9-C.Palmer pass short left intended for 10-M.Maxwell INTERCEPTED by 25-K.Thomas at BUF 4. 25-K.Thomas to BUF 12 for 8 yards (10-M.Maxwell).

Losman kneels.

Ozey74
07-17-2008, 08:46 PM
Last time I checked...passer ratings and stats are indeed facts. Another fact...Ben has been in significantly more playoff games and has won a SB. So, if stats and accomplishments don't determine skill...what does? Please give me some "facts" that would allow us to assess Carsons "skill".

So you pick at one line if the whole post and focus on that? And semantics nonetheless.

That comment was made because "passer rating" in the fourth quarter doesnt take into account running the clock out at the end of games or spiking the football. If you look at the actual game logs then you can see how Carson performed.

So while I agree passer ratings are facts, the actual game logs would be a better indication of how Carson actually did in those games, wouldn't you agree?



Bengals vs Bills I pick this game cause I can remember losing a bet on the Bengals. :(

4th QTR (Bengals up 21 -16 start of 4TH QTR)

9-R.Lindell kicks 75 yards from BUF 30 to CIN -5. 16-G.Holt, Touchback.
1-10-CIN 20 (13:54) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete deep right to 85-C.Johnson (56-K.Ellison, 37-G.Wilson). Pass tipped at CIN 32 by K.Ellison, nearly intercepted by G.Wilson at CIN 37.
2-10-CIN 20 (13:47) 33-K.Watson right guard to CIN 22 for 2 yards (37-G.Wilson).
3-8-CIN 22 (13:05) (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete
Larson punts

1-10-CIN 8 (11:24) 32-R.Johnson left guard to CIN 5 for -3 yards (90-C.Kelsay).
2-13-CIN 5 (10:46) 9-C.Palmer pass short left to 82-R.Kelly to CIN 13 for 8 yards (33-J.Greer, 55-A.Crowell). Caught in flat at CIN 10.
3-5-CIN 13 (10:08) (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete
Larson punts

1-10-CIN 26 (5:45) 9-C.Palmer pass short left to 33-K.Watson to CIN 38 for 12 yards (55-A.Crowell). Screen, caught at CIN 27.
1-10-CIN 38 (5:12) (No Huddle) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short middle to 16-G.Holt [27-C.Wire]. Underthrown, receiver at CIN 48.
2-10-CIN 38 (5:08) (No Huddle) 33-K.Watson left guard to CIN 41 for 3 yards (93-A.Hargrove, 37-G.Wilson).
3-7-CIN 41 (4:26) (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short right to 16-G.Holt (24-T.McGee). Receiver and coverage along sideline at CIN 46. Pressure on QB: A.Hargrove.
Larson punts

4th possession in 4th QTR , Buffalo now plays prevent

1-10-CIN 22 (2:14) 9-C.Palmer scrambles right end pushed ob at CIN 29 for 7 yards (55-A.Crowell).
2-3-CIN 29 (2:06) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 86-D.Coats to CIN 39 for 10 yards (93-A.Hargrove; 55-A.Crowell). Caught at CIN 36.
Two-Minute Warning
1-10-CIN 39 (1:59) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete deep left to 85-C.Johnson. CIN-85-C.Johnson was injured during the play. Removed from field on stretcher. Thrown wide of receiver at BUF 38.
Timeout #3 by CIN at 01:53.
2-10-CIN 39 (1:53) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short middle (97-J.McCargo). Pass batted at line.
3-10-CIN 39 (1:48) (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass short left to 33-K.Watson pushed ob at BUF 45 for 16 yards (94-A.Schobel). Screen, caught at CIN 34.
1-10-BUF 45 (1:41) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 86-D.Coats to BUF 36 for 9 yards (25-K.Thomas, 93-A.Hargrove). Caught at BUF37.
2-1-BUF 36 (1:21) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass short right to 33-K.Watson to BUF 28 for 8 yards (55-A.Crowell).
1-10-BUF 28 (:56) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short left to 84-T.Houshmandzadeh. Dropped, receiver in flat at BUF 22.
2-10-BUF 28 (:51) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 27-D.Dorsey to BUF 19 for 9 yards (55-A.Crowell). Dump pass, caught at BUF 25.
3-1-BUF 19 (:29) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 10-M.Maxwell to BUF 14 for 5 yards (33-J.Greer). Slant pattern, caught at BUF 14.
1-10-BUF 14 (:18) 9-C.Palmer spiked the ball to stop the clock.
2-10-BUF 14 (:18) 9-C.Palmer pass short left intended for 10-M.Maxwell INTERCEPTED by 25-K.Thomas at BUF 4. 25-K.Thomas to BUF 12 for 8 yards (10-M.Maxwell).

Losman kneels.

Great work again!! :Clap

Scarletfire1970
07-17-2008, 09:12 PM
Carson Palmer has had the luxury of working with the same #1 and #2 WRs throughout his career. Ben had Hines and Plax the first year, then Hines and ARE/Wilson the second year, then Hines and Wilson the 3rd year and Hines and Holmes last year. We all agree that Hines is on the downside of his career and until we got Holmes we had no true deep threat after Plax left.

If you want to use the excuse that it is the defenses fault they can't win games, I watched the games last year. It was the offense that has been struggling. Carson hasn't been the same since his injury.

Mr Smartmonies
07-17-2008, 09:59 PM
One of the things that have truly gone with much discussion or without much scrutiny when it comes to Carson, the final 3 games of the 2006 season. Particularly the final game of 2006. Palmer only needed to win 1 game out of the final 3 to sneak into the playoffs. After losing 2 of them, he would then get the Steelers at home. The Steelers had just come off a beating agaiinst the Ravens which ended their season. Carson Palmer at home, had the steelers right where he wated them. He should have drilled Pittsburgh. Yet his offense scored only 3 points in the first 3 Quarters. He end up losing in OT. The game shouldn't have been close. The bengals were a solid Favorite in that game. Those are the kind of games that are very winnable, yet he just hasn't shown he has it. And he is coming on his 6th season now.

Shawn
07-18-2008, 12:25 AM
One of the things that have truly gone with much discussion or without much scrutiny when it comes to Carson, the final 3 games of the 2006 season. Particularly the final game of 2006. Palmer only needed to win 1 game out of the final 3 to sneak into the playoffs. After losing 2 of them, he would then get the Steelers at home. The Steelers had just come off a beating agaiinst the Ravens which ended their season. Carson Palmer at home, had the steelers right where he wated them. He should have drilled Pittsburgh. Yet his offense scored only 3 points in the first 3 Quarters. He end up losing in OT. The game shouldn't have been close. The bengals were a solid Favorite in that game. Those are the kind of games that are very winnable, yet he just hasn't shown he has it. And he is coming on his 6th season now.

$$$ This is the difference between winners and losers. Ben is a winner...Palmer is a :loser It really is that simple.

Jom112
07-18-2008, 10:07 AM
PS...it really irritates me that you are making me look up stats but I think last years numbers are fairly telling.

Ben- 32TDs 11 ints passer rating of 104.1 yards 3,154
Carson- Passer rating of 86.7... yards...4,131 26 tds 20 ints

I don't know but Bens look quite a bit better to me.

I can't wait for this season to begin SMG. I have no doubt that Carson will put up better numbers. Just wait and see...

Jom112
07-18-2008, 10:12 AM
Last time I checked...passer ratings and stats are indeed facts. Another fact...Ben has been in significantly more playoff games and has won a SB. So, if stats and accomplishments don't determine skill...what does? Please give me some "facts" that would allow us to assess Carsons "skill".

So you pick at one line if the whole post and focus on that? And semantics nonetheless.

That comment was made because "passer rating" in the fourth quarter doesnt take into account running the clock out at the end of games or spiking the football. If you look at the actual game logs then you can see how Carson performed.

So while I agree passer ratings are facts, the actual game logs would be a better indication of how Carson actually did in those games, wouldn't you agree?



Bengals vs Bills I pick this game cause I can remember losing a bet on the Bengals. :(

4th QTR (Bengals up 21 -16 start of 4TH QTR)

9-R.Lindell kicks 75 yards from BUF 30 to CIN -5. 16-G.Holt, Touchback.
1-10-CIN 20 (13:54) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete deep right to 85-C.Johnson (56-K.Ellison, 37-G.Wilson). Pass tipped at CIN 32 by K.Ellison, nearly intercepted by G.Wilson at CIN 37.
2-10-CIN 20 (13:47) 33-K.Watson right guard to CIN 22 for 2 yards (37-G.Wilson).
3-8-CIN 22 (13:05) (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete
Larson punts

1-10-CIN 8 (11:24) 32-R.Johnson left guard to CIN 5 for -3 yards (90-C.Kelsay).
2-13-CIN 5 (10:46) 9-C.Palmer pass short left to 82-R.Kelly to CIN 13 for 8 yards (33-J.Greer, 55-A.Crowell). Caught in flat at CIN 10.
3-5-CIN 13 (10:08) (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete
Larson punts

1-10-CIN 26 (5:45) 9-C.Palmer pass short left to 33-K.Watson to CIN 38 for 12 yards (55-A.Crowell). Screen, caught at CIN 27.
1-10-CIN 38 (5:12) (No Huddle) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short middle to 16-G.Holt [27-C.Wire]. Underthrown, receiver at CIN 48.
2-10-CIN 38 (5:08) (No Huddle) 33-K.Watson left guard to CIN 41 for 3 yards (93-A.Hargrove, 37-G.Wilson).
3-7-CIN 41 (4:26) (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short right to 16-G.Holt (24-T.McGee). Receiver and coverage along sideline at CIN 46. Pressure on QB: A.Hargrove.
Larson punts

4th possession in 4th QTR , Buffalo now plays prevent

1-10-CIN 22 (2:14) 9-C.Palmer scrambles right end pushed ob at CIN 29 for 7 yards (55-A.Crowell).
2-3-CIN 29 (2:06) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 86-D.Coats to CIN 39 for 10 yards (93-A.Hargrove; 55-A.Crowell). Caught at CIN 36.
Two-Minute Warning
1-10-CIN 39 (1:59) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete deep left to 85-C.Johnson. CIN-85-C.Johnson was injured during the play. Removed from field on stretcher. Thrown wide of receiver at BUF 38.
Timeout #3 by CIN at 01:53.
2-10-CIN 39 (1:53) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short middle (97-J.McCargo). Pass batted at line.
3-10-CIN 39 (1:48) (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass short left to 33-K.Watson pushed ob at BUF 45 for 16 yards (94-A.Schobel). Screen, caught at CIN 34.
1-10-BUF 45 (1:41) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 86-D.Coats to BUF 36 for 9 yards (25-K.Thomas, 93-A.Hargrove). Caught at BUF37.
2-1-BUF 36 (1:21) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass short right to 33-K.Watson to BUF 28 for 8 yards (55-A.Crowell).
1-10-BUF 28 (:56) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short left to 84-T.Houshmandzadeh. Dropped, receiver in flat at BUF 22.
2-10-BUF 28 (:51) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 27-D.Dorsey to BUF 19 for 9 yards (55-A.Crowell). Dump pass, caught at BUF 25.
3-1-BUF 19 (:29) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 10-M.Maxwell to BUF 14 for 5 yards (33-J.Greer). Slant pattern, caught at BUF 14.
1-10-BUF 14 (:18) 9-C.Palmer spiked the ball to stop the clock.
2-10-BUF 14 (:18) 9-C.Palmer pass short left intended for 10-M.Maxwell INTERCEPTED by 25-K.Thomas at BUF 4. 25-K.Thomas to BUF 12 for 8 yards (10-M.Maxwell).

Losman kneels.

Steelers vs. Cardinals.

Pittsburgh Steelers at 00:46
1-10-PIT 9 (:46) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete deep left to 10-S.Holmes (25-E.Green).
2-10-PIT 9 (:40) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass deep right to 10-S.Holmes ran ob at PIT 40 for 31 yards (58-K.Dansby).
1-10-PIT 40 (:32) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete deep right to 85-N.Washington.
2-10-PIT 40 (:26) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger sacked at PIT 32 for -8 yards (90-D.Dockett, 97-C.Pace). Penalty on PIT-74-W.Colon, Offensive Holding, declined.
3-18-PIT 32 (:19) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass deep middle intended for 85-N.Washington INTERCEPTED by 20-R.Brown at ARI 45. 20-R.Brown to 50 for 5 yards (85-N.Washington).
Arizona Cardinals at 00:06
1-10- (:06) 7-M.Leinart kneels to ARI 49 for -1 yards.

END GAME

No one is perfect. Plus I remember Ben throwing an INT to end the game against us as well in 2006...

Jom112
07-18-2008, 10:14 AM
[quote="stlrz d":1xelbx8n]Chris Henry played in 2005...wasn't that Palmer's best season? 8)

31 receptions 422 yards and 6 TD's in 2005 for Henry. Like I said we don't need a stud #3 receiver just the same one each week.

Look at Nate Washington's #'s the last couple of seasons:

2007: 29 receptions 450 yards 5 TD's
2006: 35 receptions 624 yards 4 TD's

So you're telling me Washington is garbage but Carson is luckly to have Chris Henry? Even Cedric Wilson can put up similar #'s to that...



No, what I'm saying is with Chris Henry opening things up it helps him, as it should any QB, but without Henry...not so much.

Meanwhile, as has been pointed out on this thread already, Ben has gotten it done even without his starting receivers in the lineup.[/quote:1xelbx8n]

So a #3 receiver that doesn't play every snap opens things up? Believe me Chris Perry was more of the reason why we were successful that season than Chris Henry was. Both contributed but not as much as you would like to believe...

Jom112
07-18-2008, 10:17 AM
Carson Palmer has had the luxury of working with the same #1 and #2 WRs throughout his career. Ben had Hines and Plax the first year, then Hines and ARE/Wilson the second year, then Hines and Wilson the 3rd year and Hines and Holmes last year. We all agree that Hines is on the downside of his career and until we got Holmes we had no true deep threat after Plax left.

If you want to use the excuse that it is the defenses fault they can't win games, I watched the games last year. It was the offense that has been struggling. Carson hasn't been the same since his injury.

Don't forget Health Miller came in Ben's second season as well. A big TE threat is something you guys grossly underestimate. Just see how Carson will utilize Ben Utecht this season.

I fully expect you guys to complain that it's because Carson got more weapons like Utecht that he does well this season and it's not him. Yet for the past 3 years you guys rarely acknowledge how much Miller has helped Ben...

Oviedo
07-18-2008, 10:37 AM
PS...it really irritates me that you are making me look up stats but I think last years numbers are fairly telling.

Ben- 32TDs 11 ints passer rating of 104.1 yards 3,154
Carson- Passer rating of 86.7... yards...4,131 26 tds 20 ints

I don't know but Bens look quite a bit better to me.

I can't wait for this season to begin SMG. I have no doubt that Carson will put up better numbers. Just wait and see...

Putting up better numbers isn't winning or helping your teams. Because you are in a pass happy offense doesn't mean anything. Passer rating is a much more accurate comparison. Ben's will be better than Palmer.

Jom112
07-18-2008, 10:47 AM
Putting up better numbers isn't winning or helping your teams. Because you are in a pass happy offense doesn't mean anything. Passer rating is a much more accurate comparison. Ben's will be better than Palmer.

Here are Carson and Ben's passer ratings for the past three seasons against Top Ten Defenses:

2007:

Carson: 6 Top Ten Defenses (87.42 average)

Patriots - 65.7
Titans - 113.0
Ravens - 100.3
Ravens - 91.7
Steelers - 102.2
Steelers - 51.6

Ben: 2 Top Ten Defenses (122.3 average)

Patriots - 86.3
Ravens - 158.3

2006:

Carson: 8 Top Ten Defenses (91.66 average)

Ravens - 52.4
Ravens - 97.7
Raiders - 90.0
Patriots - 78.9
Steelers - 98.2
Steelers - 91.0
Chargers - 131.1
Panthers - 94.0

Ben: 6 Top Ten Defenses (58.9 average)

Ravens - 46.2
Ravens - 47.2
Jags - 38.7
Raiders - 61.7
Chargers - 58.5
Panthers - 101.3

And before you guys start making excuses between the two Baltimore Raven games that season Ben posted a 85.1, 106.2 and a 101.3 against the Bucs, Browns and Panthers respectively.

2005:

Carson: 7 Top Ten Defenses (106.97 average)

Bears - 130.3
Steelers - 53.8
Steelers - 101.5
Ravens - 128.4
Ravens - 124.6
Jags - 108.0
Packers - 102.2

Ben: 1 Top Ten Defense (85.0 average)

Ravens - 85.0


2004:

Carson - 9 Top Ten Defenses (75.38 average)

Steelers - 52.1
Steelers - 82.9
Ravens - 43.4
Ravens - 127.1
Jets - 105.2
Dolphins - 53.3
Patriots - 65.7
Redskins - 63.7
Broncos - 85.0

Ben - 7 Top Ten Defenses (88.34 average)

Ravens - 82.5
Ravens - 125.1
Jets - 33.6
Dolphins - 74.6
Patriots - 126.4
Eagles - 109.3
Redskins - 66.9


The discrepancy between the number of top defenses played between the two quarter backs surprised me when I actually looked up the numbers. 30 for Carson to 16 for Ben...

Oviedo
07-18-2008, 10:51 AM
Putting up better numbers isn't winning or helping your teams. Because you are in a pass happy offense doesn't mean anything. Passer rating is a much more accurate comparison. Ben's will be better than Palmer.

Thanks for walking into that. Here are Carson and Ben's passer ratings for the past three seasons against Top Ten Defenses:

2007:

Carson: 6 Top Ten Defenses

Patriots - 65.7
Titans - 113.0
Ravens - 100.3
Ravens - 91.7
Steelers - 102.2
Steelers - 51.6

Ben: 2 Top Ten Defenses

Patriots - 86.3
Ravens - 158.3

2006:

Carson: 8 Top Ten Defenses

Ravens - 52.4
Ravens - 97.7
Raiders - 90.0
Patriots - 78.9
Steelers - 98.2
Steelers - 91.0
Chargers - 131.1
Panthers - 94.0

Ben: 5 Top Ten Defenses

Ravens - 46.2
Ravens - 47.2
Jags - 38.7
Raiders - 61.7
Chargers - 58.5

2005:

Carson: 7 Top Ten Defenses

Bears - 130.3
Steelers - 53.8
Steelers - 101.5
Ravens - 128.4
Ravens - 124.6
Jags - 108.0
Packers - 102.2

Ben: 1 Top Ten Defense
Ravens - 85.0


The discrepancy between the number of top defenses played between the two quarter backs surprised me when I actually looked up the numbers. 21 for Carson to 8 for Ben...

It is a season overall not a game here or there. If Carson only has good numbers against good teams he must really suck against bad teams to drop his rating so far. Sounds like a very inefficient, inconsistent QB. Maybe he has a focus problem.

Jom112
07-18-2008, 12:08 PM
It is a season overall not a game here or there. If Carson only has good numbers against good teams he must really suck against bad teams to drop his rating so far. Sounds like a very inefficient, inconsistent QB. Maybe he has a focus problem.

:Hater

Actually, you do have somewhat of a point there. Personally though I think it's more of a team immaturity than Carson being inconsistant. You see players like Chad get all pumped up to play in Miami or on MNF, but other times he's not focused.

QB's in general I think are more mature and prepare harder every week. Just watching Ben and Carson in interviews should tell you that...

Mr Smartmonies
07-18-2008, 06:29 PM
Last time I checked...passer ratings and stats are indeed facts. Another fact...Ben has been in significantly more playoff games and has won a SB. So, if stats and accomplishments don't determine skill...what does? Please give me some "facts" that would allow us to assess Carsons "skill".

So you pick at one line if the whole post and focus on that? And semantics nonetheless.

That comment was made because "passer rating" in the fourth quarter doesnt take into account running the clock out at the end of games or spiking the football. If you look at the actual game logs then you can see how Carson performed.

So while I agree passer ratings are facts, the actual game logs would be a better indication of how Carson actually did in those games, wouldn't you agree?



Bengals vs Bills I pick this game cause I can remember losing a bet on the Bengals. :(

4th QTR (Bengals up 21 -16 start of 4TH QTR)

9-R.Lindell kicks 75 yards from BUF 30 to CIN -5. 16-G.Holt, Touchback.
1-10-CIN 20 (13:54) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete deep right to 85-C.Johnson (56-K.Ellison, 37-G.Wilson). Pass tipped at CIN 32 by K.Ellison, nearly intercepted by G.Wilson at CIN 37.
2-10-CIN 20 (13:47) 33-K.Watson right guard to CIN 22 for 2 yards (37-G.Wilson).
3-8-CIN 22 (13:05) (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete
Larson punts

1-10-CIN 8 (11:24) 32-R.Johnson left guard to CIN 5 for -3 yards (90-C.Kelsay).
2-13-CIN 5 (10:46) 9-C.Palmer pass short left to 82-R.Kelly to CIN 13 for 8 yards (33-J.Greer, 55-A.Crowell). Caught in flat at CIN 10.
3-5-CIN 13 (10:08) (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete
Larson punts

1-10-CIN 26 (5:45) 9-C.Palmer pass short left to 33-K.Watson to CIN 38 for 12 yards (55-A.Crowell). Screen, caught at CIN 27.
1-10-CIN 38 (5:12) (No Huddle) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short middle to 16-G.Holt [27-C.Wire]. Underthrown, receiver at CIN 48.
2-10-CIN 38 (5:08) (No Huddle) 33-K.Watson left guard to CIN 41 for 3 yards (93-A.Hargrove, 37-G.Wilson).
3-7-CIN 41 (4:26) (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short right to 16-G.Holt (24-T.McGee). Receiver and coverage along sideline at CIN 46. Pressure on QB: A.Hargrove.
Larson punts

4th possession in 4th QTR , Buffalo now plays prevent

1-10-CIN 22 (2:14) 9-C.Palmer scrambles right end pushed ob at CIN 29 for 7 yards (55-A.Crowell).
2-3-CIN 29 (2:06) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 86-D.Coats to CIN 39 for 10 yards (93-A.Hargrove; 55-A.Crowell). Caught at CIN 36.
Two-Minute Warning
1-10-CIN 39 (1:59) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete deep left to 85-C.Johnson. CIN-85-C.Johnson was injured during the play. Removed from field on stretcher. Thrown wide of receiver at BUF 38.
Timeout #3 by CIN at 01:53.
2-10-CIN 39 (1:53) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short middle (97-J.McCargo). Pass batted at line.
3-10-CIN 39 (1:48) (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass short left to 33-K.Watson pushed ob at BUF 45 for 16 yards (94-A.Schobel). Screen, caught at CIN 34.
1-10-BUF 45 (1:41) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 86-D.Coats to BUF 36 for 9 yards (25-K.Thomas, 93-A.Hargrove). Caught at BUF37.
2-1-BUF 36 (1:21) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass short right to 33-K.Watson to BUF 28 for 8 yards (55-A.Crowell).
1-10-BUF 28 (:56) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short left to 84-T.Houshmandzadeh. Dropped, receiver in flat at BUF 22.
2-10-BUF 28 (:51) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 27-D.Dorsey to BUF 19 for 9 yards (55-A.Crowell). Dump pass, caught at BUF 25.
3-1-BUF 19 (:29) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 10-M.Maxwell to BUF 14 for 5 yards (33-J.Greer). Slant pattern, caught at BUF 14.
1-10-BUF 14 (:18) 9-C.Palmer spiked the ball to stop the clock.
2-10-BUF 14 (:18) 9-C.Palmer pass short left intended for 10-M.Maxwell INTERCEPTED by 25-K.Thomas at BUF 4. 25-K.Thomas to BUF 12 for 8 yards (10-M.Maxwell).

Losman kneels.

Steelers vs. Cardinals.

Pittsburgh Steelers at 00:46
1-10-PIT 9 (:46) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete deep left to 10-S.Holmes (25-E.Green).
2-10-PIT 9 (:40) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass deep right to 10-S.Holmes ran ob at PIT 40 for 31 yards (58-K.Dansby).
1-10-PIT 40 (:32) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete deep right to 85-N.Washington.
2-10-PIT 40 (:26) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger sacked at PIT 32 for -8 yards (90-D.Dockett, 97-C.Pace). Penalty on PIT-74-W.Colon, Offensive Holding, declined.
3-18-PIT 32 (:19) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass deep middle intended for 85-N.Washington INTERCEPTED by 20-R.Brown at ARI 45. 20-R.Brown to 50 for 5 yards (85-N.Washington).
Arizona Cardinals at 00:06
1-10- (:06) 7-M.Leinart kneels to ARI 49 for -1 yards.

END GAME

No one is perfect. Plus I remember Ben throwing an INT to end the game against us as well in 2006...

wHAT A jOKE! You started with the last hail mary drive with 46 seconds. You forgot about the one before that.

.
1-10-PIT 8 (4:08) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass short right to 39-W.Parker to PIT 20 for 12 yards (94-A.Smith).
1-10-PIT 20 (3:40) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass short middle to 83-H.Miller to PIT 31 for 11 yards (58-K.Dansby).
1-10-PIT 31 (3:18) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger scrambles left end ran ob at PIT 39 for 8 yards (25-E.Green).
2-2-PIT 39 (3:11) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass deep left to 10-S.Holmes pushed ob at ARI 39 for 22 yards (25-E.Green).
1-10-ARI 39 (3:02) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass short middle to 85-N.Washington to ARI 30 for 9 yards (58-K.Dansby).
2-1-ARI 30 (2:35) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete short middle to 83-H.Miller.
3-1-ARI 30 (2:35) (Shotgun) 44-N.Davenport right tackle to ARI 23 for 7 yards (94-A.Smith, 20-R.Brown).
1-10-ARI 23 (2:04) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger scrambles left end pushed ob at ARI 7 for 16 yards (21-A.Rolle).
Two-Minute Warning
1-7-ARI 7 (1:54) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass short left to 10-S.Holmes for 7 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

stlrz d
07-18-2008, 07:05 PM
[quote="stlrz d":1zfdu9dq]Chris Henry played in 2005...wasn't that Palmer's best season? 8)

31 receptions 422 yards and 6 TD's in 2005 for Henry. Like I said we don't need a stud #3 receiver just the same one each week.

Look at Nate Washington's #'s the last couple of seasons:

2007: 29 receptions 450 yards 5 TD's
2006: 35 receptions 624 yards 4 TD's

So you're telling me Washington is garbage but Carson is luckly to have Chris Henry? Even Cedric Wilson can put up similar #'s to that...



No, what I'm saying is with Chris Henry opening things up it helps him, as it should any QB, but without Henry...not so much.

Meanwhile, as has been pointed out on this thread already, Ben has gotten it done even without his starting receivers in the lineup.

So a #3 receiver that doesn't play every snap opens things up? Believe me Chris Perry was more of the reason why we were successful that season than Chris Henry was. Both contributed but not as much as you would like to believe...[/quote:1zfdu9dq]


So why was 2005 his best season?

Scarletfire1970
07-18-2008, 08:08 PM
Carson Palmer has had the luxury of working with the same #1 and #2 WRs throughout his career. Ben had Hines and Plax the first year, then Hines and ARE/Wilson the second year, then Hines and Wilson the 3rd year and Hines and Holmes last year. We all agree that Hines is on the downside of his career and until we got Holmes we had no true deep threat after Plax left.

If you want to use the excuse that it is the defenses fault they can't win games, I watched the games last year. It was the offense that has been struggling. Carson hasn't been the same since his injury.

Don't forget Health Miller came in Ben's second season as well. A big TE threat is something you guys grossly underestimate. Just see how Carson will utilize Ben Utecht this season.

I fully expect you guys to complain that it's because Carson got more weapons like Utecht that he does well this season and it's not him. Yet for the past 3 years you guys rarely acknowledge how much Miller has helped Ben...

Heath Miller caught 39 balls for 459 yards his first year, 34 for 393 his second year and 47 for 566 yards last year. Are you saying he has a bigger impact than Chad Johnson and TJ Housh has had for the Bengals with those stats? While Heath Miller might be a good TE, the Steelers were never a team to utilize that position. Hopefully that will change.

I won't complain if Carson has a good season this year. I fully expect that he won't though. He hasn't been the same player since his injury. You can make up any excuses you want for him, but watching the games, he doesn't look like the same player.

Mr Smartmonies
07-18-2008, 10:29 PM
Is there any possible way that Carson Palmer could at least win 1 playoff game before
we have to sit here and listen about how great he is? I mean the guy absolutely sucks on third down and his 4th QTR performances have been dreadful. I really don't care about how many total yards he racks up against Prevent defenses. Win a playoff game, Carson and then maybe we can have a discussion, In the meantime, you haven't
made any difference in Cincy. they were losing without you , and their losing with
you. If your so damn good, then carry the team on your back and at least win a playoff game for pete's sake.