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Oviedo
07-14-2008, 04:04 PM
http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/vi ... p?t=434469 (http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=434469)

Ben is number 5 behind Brady, Manning, Palmer and Brees. I'll take Ben over Palmer and Brees anyday. How many Super Bowls did either of them win?

Flasteel
07-14-2008, 04:11 PM
http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=434469

Ben is number 5 behind Brady, Manning, Palmer and Brees. I'll take Ben over Palmer and Brees anyday. How many Super Bowls did either of them win?

I'll take Ben over all of them. :D

SteelHoss
07-14-2008, 06:04 PM
This media bias is really beginning to get on my nerves. Ben definitely IMO ranks in the top three. Palmer & Brees ahead of Ben! C'mon!

Ozey74
07-14-2008, 06:12 PM
I wouldn't take anyone over Ben, but Peyton and Brady ahead of Ben is at least justifiable. Brees & especially Palmer are not.

RuthlessBurgher
07-14-2008, 06:44 PM
I wouldn't take anyone over Ben, but Peyton and Brady ahead of Ben is at least justifiable. Brees & especially Palmer are not.

Brady and Peyton would get killed behind our o-line. We've seen both of them light up the league when they've had time in the pocket, and get shellacked when they have pressure in their faces. If you put Ben behind an above-average o-line like Brees and Palmer have and gave him plenty of time to throw, there is no limit to what he could do.

BURGH86STEEL
07-14-2008, 07:05 PM
http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=434469

Ben is number 5 behind Brady, Manning, Palmer and Brees. I'll take Ben over Palmer and Brees anyday. How many Super Bowls did either of them win?

This seems to be a common mistake people make. SB wins are team accomplishments. I have a feeling that Palmer and Brees would have very successful careers if they were QBs for the Steelers.

IMO there is Manning, Brady, and then everybody else. There can be an arguement for several QBs at the 3 spot. I do not know why people get upset about this stuff. Especially when this is all based on one's opinion.

Ozey74
07-14-2008, 07:12 PM
Brady and Peyton would get killed behind our o-line.

I've been preaching this to all the Peyton lovers that I'm surrounded by. One year, Ben will have an above average line. -I hope.

stlrz d
07-14-2008, 07:23 PM
I wouldn't take anyone over Ben, but Peyton and Brady ahead of Ben is at least justifiable. Brees & especially Palmer are not.

Brady and Peyton would get killed behind our o-line. We've seen both of them light up the league when they've had time in the pocket, and get shellacked when they have pressure in their faces. If you put Ben behind an above-average o-line like Brees and Palmer have and gave him plenty of time to throw, there is no limit to what he could do.

This.


Btw, how many playoff games have Palmer and Brees won...combined? :wink:

Mr Smartmonies
07-14-2008, 08:35 PM
If you smart, all you need to do is look at yards per attempt and third down passing.
If a QB ranks near the top on those lists, he will have a ton of wins. All the other stuff like over all passing yards, is the most important among ESPN and sports writers, but its the least important among professional sports bettors and handicappers. Give me a QB with a great career yards per attempt average and poise on third down , and I got nothing to worry about going forward.

Steel Life
07-14-2008, 08:55 PM
If Brees has one more down year I think you'll see him drop quickly. If Palmer misses the playoffs again, then I don't see how he could still be considered elite. Th e thing I'm confounded over with Ben's perception is how anyone can continuously overlook his efficiency, gaudy YPA & winning percentage.

steeld95
07-14-2008, 08:57 PM
I am tired of seeing Palmer ranked ahead of Ben. Just because he throws a good ball and have good mechanics does not make him a better qb. Until he wins something important, he should not be considered.

You always hear people say Ben wins because of the team around him and he manages the game. That is garbage. During the superbowl run, he played great during the playoffs and was a big reason for our success.

Brees has had plenty of talent around him too...how many superbowl wins does he have? Playoff wins???

Thats fine, rank them ahead of Ben......Ben will just continue to prove them wrong on the field...and thats what counts...not some dumb a$$ reporters rankings!

Mr Smartmonies
07-14-2008, 11:57 PM
I am tired of seeing Palmer ranked ahead of Ben. Just because he throws a good ball and have good mechanics does not make him a better qb. Until he wins something important, he should not be considered.

You always hear people say Ben wins because of the team around him and he manages the game. That is garbage. During the superbowl run, he played great during the playoffs and was a big reason for our success.

Brees has had plenty of talent around him too...how many superbowl wins does he have? Playoff wins???

Thats fine, rank them ahead of Ben......Ben will just continue to prove them wrong on the field...and thats what counts...not some dumb a$$ reporters rankings!


Your right about people always saying Ben's team is so good. Yet,
Who has been surround with more offensive talent then Palmer? People forget
that Rudy Johnson was one of the few backs who has gashed the steelers for 100 yards when their defense was at its peek.

Also consider that for Cincy to improve the defensive side of the ball, Palmer might have to give up a Chad Johnson or a TJ housch. Maybe that pretty ball won't look as good throwing to Cedric if you know what i mean. in the meantime if Palmer could just improve on third down , he might be the one guy that helps his defenee the most by keeping them off the field.

SteelerOfDeVille
07-15-2008, 12:57 AM
There was another poll recently that had Ben at #3. After that poll, I, myself said I'd have him at 3-4, about even with Brees, who I've always felt was underrated.

Brady and Manning - if you can't at least see an argument for those guys being higher rated, ditch the B&G colored glasses.

Basically, IMO, the question is Palmer or Ben... and while I wouldn't rate Palmer higher, I could see the case... he's had 4000+ yards and 25+ TDs each of the last 2 years... in fact, he had 32 TDs the year before. I could see the argument.

Just be glad that he's not behind guys like Romo, Bulger and Hasselbeck that have more gaudy stats. I'm satisfied with a "top 5" ranking... It says he's among the elite and no longer a game manager.

RuthlessBurgher
07-15-2008, 01:03 AM
There was another poll recently that had Ben at #3. After that poll, I, myself said I'd have him at 3-4, about even with Brees, who I've always felt was underrated.

Brady and Manning - if you can't at least see an argument for those guys being higher rated, ditch the B&G colored glasses.

Basically, IMO, the question is Palmer or Ben... and while I wouldn't rate Palmer higher, I could see the case... he's had 4000+ yards and 25+ TDs each of the last 2 years... in fact, he had 32 TDs the year before. I could see the argument.

Just be glad that he's not behind guys like Romo, Bulger and Hasselbeck that have more gaudy stats. I'm satisfied with a "top 5" ranking... It says he's among the elite and no longer a game manager.

Yeah, it a long way from Peter King rating him...what was it?...17th last offseason. In a league of 32 starting QB's, 17 is below average. I mean...that's Derek Anderson territory. :lol: :brownssuck

stlrz d
07-15-2008, 07:20 AM
There was another poll recently that had Ben at #3. After that poll, I, myself said I'd have him at 3-4, about even with Brees, who I've always felt was underrated.

Brady and Manning - if you can't at least see an argument for those guys being higher rated, ditch the B&G colored glasses.

Basically, IMO, the question is Palmer or Ben... and while I wouldn't rate Palmer higher, I could see the case... he's had 4000+ yards and 25+ TDs each of the last 2 years... in fact, he had 32 TDs the year before. I could see the argument.

Just be glad that he's not behind guys like Romo, Bulger and Hasselbeck that have more gaudy stats. I'm satisfied with a "top 5" ranking... It says he's among the elite and no longer a game manager.

I understand your points, but to me it's about more than just stats.

steelblood
07-15-2008, 07:33 AM
Carson Palmer is pretty good. He doesn't have anywhere near Ben's mobility, but he is a very accurate passer and throws a beautiful deep ball. I'm not sure why everyone is always so shocked and offended to see him rated above Ben. If Ben outshines Palmer again this year, writers will begin to come around.

stlrz d
07-15-2008, 07:36 AM
Carson Palmer is pretty good. He doesn't have anywhere near Ben's mobility, but he is a very accurate passer and throws a beautiful deep ball. I'm not sure why everyone is always so shocked and offended to see him rated above Ben. If Ben outshines Palmer again this year, writers will begin to come around.

Because Palmer has exactly zero post season wins.

Oviedo
07-15-2008, 07:58 AM
Carson Palmer is pretty good. He doesn't have anywhere near Ben's mobility, but he is a very accurate passer and throws a beautiful deep ball. I'm not sure why everyone is always so shocked and offended to see him rated above Ben. If Ben outshines Palmer again this year, writers will begin to come around.

Because Palmer has exactly zero post season wins.

Got to agree. Palmer is overrated. He has been surrounded by great offensive talent for several years and can't win a meaningful game. Has he won a game of significance in his entire professional career?

Just because he throws a "pretty" ball doesn't mean he has the intangibles to be a great QB.

ikestops85
07-15-2008, 09:56 AM
If Brees has one more down year I think you'll see him drop quickly. If Palmer misses the playoffs again, then I don't see how he could still be considered elite. Th e thing I'm confounded over with Ben's perception is how anyone can continuously overlook his efficiency, gaudy YPA & winning percentage.

An interesting statement about Brees. He was 440/652 (67.5%) for 4,423 yards with 28 TDs, 18 INTs and an 89.4 passer rating. About the only thing that wasn't very good was his ypa which was a pedestrian 6.8. He had career highs in attempts, completions, completion percentage, yardage and TDs. Without Duece to provide a running game Brees was about all the New Orleans offense had. I'm not sure why you think he had a down year.

As for QBs I don't care where people rank Ben. He fits the Steeler type of football mold which is substance over flash. He gets the job done more often than not whether it's by his arm, legs or even his wits. He willingly sacrifices his body to make a play or try and make a play. He may not be the prettiest QB on the field but he is a winner and wears black and gold and I for one am glad :Cheers

Jom112
07-15-2008, 10:08 AM
Carson Palmer is pretty good. He doesn't have anywhere near Ben's mobility, but he is a very accurate passer and throws a beautiful deep ball. I'm not sure why everyone is always so shocked and offended to see him rated above Ben. If Ben outshines Palmer again this year, writers will begin to come around.

Because Palmer has exactly zero post season wins.

Got to agree. Palmer is overrated. He has been surrounded by great offensive talent for several years and can't win a meaningful game. Has he won a game of significance in his entire professional career?

Just because he throws a "pretty" ball doesn't mean he has the intangibles to be a great QB.

I tired to debate this topic with you guys but no one seems to want to backup that statement:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1144 (http://www.planetsteelers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1144)

It's more than just a "pretty" long ball. I don't see why Steeler fans believe that they need to put down Palmer to validate Ben? Ben is a very good QB (Better than Brees definitely), if some sportswriter feels differently who cares?

Hogerules33
07-15-2008, 10:29 AM
Also consider that for Cincy to improve the defensive side of the ball, Palmer might have to give up a Chad Johnson or a TJ housch. Maybe that pretty ball won't look as good throwing to Cedric if you know what i mean. in the meantime if Palmer could just improve on third down , he might be the one guy that helps his defenee the most by keeping them off the field.

It didn't help Cinci's defense that up and coming Odell Thurman had/has drug problems, and 1st round pick David Pollack broke his neck.

We keep referencing Palmer's lack of post-season wins...even though the only chance he got, he was knocked out of the game on the second play.

All in all I think he is good, but Ben is better. Like Jom said, no need to tear down Palmer just to validate Ben. His numbers speak for themselves.

ikestops85
07-15-2008, 10:57 AM
Also consider that for Cincy to improve the defensive side of the ball, Palmer might have to give up a Chad Johnson or a TJ housch. Maybe that pretty ball won't look as good throwing to Cedric if you know what i mean. in the meantime if Palmer could just improve on third down , he might be the one guy that helps his defenee the most by keeping them off the field.

It didn't help Cinci's defense that up and coming Odell Thurman had/has drug problems, and 1st round pick David Pollack broke his neck.

We keep referencing Palmer's lack of post-season wins...even though the only chance he got, he was knocked out of the game on the second play.

All in all I think he is good, but Ben is better. Like Jom said, no need to tear down Palmer just to validate Ben. His numbers speak for themselves.
:Agree with most of what you said. Carson and Ben are two different types of QBs. Both of whom play the position extremely well. I think Carson is the better pure passer and Ben is the better playmaker. All told I think they are on the same level. The Steelers would still be a winning team with Carson at the helm and the bengals would still be losers with Ben at the helm.

Ozey74
07-15-2008, 11:43 AM
Also consider that for Cincy to improve the defensive side of the ball, Palmer might have to give up a Chad Johnson or a TJ housch. Maybe that pretty ball won't look as good throwing to Cedric if you know what i mean. in the meantime if Palmer could just improve on third down , he might be the one guy that helps his defenee the most by keeping them off the field.

It didn't help Cinci's defense that up and coming Odell Thurman had/has drug problems, and 1st round pick David Pollack broke his neck.

We keep referencing Palmer's lack of post-season wins...even though the only chance he got, he was knocked out of the game on the second play.

All in all I think he is good, but Ben is better. Like Jom said, no need to tear down Palmer just to validate Ben. His numbers speak for themselves.
I think Carson is the better pure passer and Ben is the better playmaker.

I'll take the playmaker over the passer anyday!!!

SteelerOfDeVille
07-15-2008, 11:44 AM
There was another poll recently that had Ben at #3. After that poll, I, myself said I'd have him at 3-4, about even with Brees, who I've always felt was underrated.

Brady and Manning - if you can't at least see an argument for those guys being higher rated, ditch the B&G colored glasses.

Basically, IMO, the question is Palmer or Ben... and while I wouldn't rate Palmer higher, I could see the case... he's had 4000+ yards and 25+ TDs each of the last 2 years... in fact, he had 32 TDs the year before. I could see the argument.

Just be glad that he's not behind guys like Romo, Bulger and Hasselbeck that have more gaudy stats. I'm satisfied with a "top 5" ranking... It says he's among the elite and no longer a game manager.

I understand your points, but to me it's about more than just stats.
It absolutely is more about just stats... My point is, I can see the arguments. It's not like names are being yanked outta left field.

The truth is that while they may not be the ONLY determining factor, stats matter. Otherwise, Marino doesn't belong on the top QB of all time list.

SteelerOfDeVille
07-15-2008, 11:45 AM
Also consider that for Cincy to improve the defensive side of the ball, Palmer might have to give up a Chad Johnson or a TJ housch. Maybe that pretty ball won't look as good throwing to Cedric if you know what i mean. in the meantime if Palmer could just improve on third down , he might be the one guy that helps his defenee the most by keeping them off the field.

It didn't help Cinci's defense that up and coming Odell Thurman had/has drug problems, and 1st round pick David Pollack broke his neck.

We keep referencing Palmer's lack of post-season wins...even though the only chance he got, he was knocked out of the game on the second play.

All in all I think he is good, but Ben is better. Like Jom said, no need to tear down Palmer just to validate Ben. His numbers speak for themselves.
I think Carson is the better pure passer and Ben is the better playmaker.

I'll take the playmaker over the passer anyday!!!
You'd take Mike Vick over Peyton Manning?

Mr Smartmonies
07-15-2008, 11:49 AM
Carson Palmer is pretty good. He doesn't have anywhere near Ben's mobility, but he is a very accurate passer and throws a beautiful deep ball. I'm not sure why everyone is always so shocked and offended to see him rated above Ben. If Ben outshines Palmer again this year, writers will begin to come around.

How accurate is Carson's Ball in the crucial periods of the game?

SteelerOfDeVille
07-15-2008, 12:02 PM
Carson Palmer is pretty good. He doesn't have anywhere near Ben's mobility, but he is a very accurate passer and throws a beautiful deep ball. I'm not sure why everyone is always so shocked and offended to see him rated above Ben. If Ben outshines Palmer again this year, writers will begin to come around.

How accurate is Carson's Ball in the crucial periods of the game?

they all throw pics at various points in the game and Ben isn't immune.

I think steelblood is so spot on there....

Ozey74
07-15-2008, 12:14 PM
Also consider that for Cincy to improve the defensive side of the ball, Palmer might have to give up a Chad Johnson or a TJ housch. Maybe that pretty ball won't look as good throwing to Cedric if you know what i mean. in the meantime if Palmer could just improve on third down , he might be the one guy that helps his defenee the most by keeping them off the field.

It didn't help Cinci's defense that up and coming Odell Thurman had/has drug problems, and 1st round pick David Pollack broke his neck.

We keep referencing Palmer's lack of post-season wins...even though the only chance he got, he was knocked out of the game on the second play.

All in all I think he is good, but Ben is better. Like Jom said, no need to tear down Palmer just to validate Ben. His numbers speak for themselves.
I think Carson is the better pure passer and Ben is the better playmaker.

I'll take the playmaker over the passer anyday!!!
You'd take Mike Vick over Peyton Manning?

Of course not. The have to prove they can win. I should of clarified what I meant.....

SteelerOfDeVille
07-15-2008, 12:36 PM
I think Carson is the better pure passer and Ben is the better playmaker.

I'll take the playmaker over the passer anyday!!!
You'd take Mike Vick over Peyton Manning?

Of course not. The have to prove they can win. I should of clarified what I meant.....
I don't care whether he's a passer, a runner, too short or if it's an ugly throwing motion... if he's a winner, that's the guy I want.

Personally, I take the best winner... period.

Mr Smartmonies
07-15-2008, 12:40 PM
If Brees has one more down year I think you'll see him drop quickly. If Palmer misses the playoffs again, then I don't see how he could still be considered elite. Th e thing I'm confounded over with Ben's perception is how anyone can continuously overlook his efficiency, gaudy YPA & winning percentage.

An interesting statement about Brees. He was 440/652 (67.5%) for 4,423 yards with 28 TDs, 18 INTs and an 89.4 passer rating. About the only thing that wasn't very good was his ypa which was a pedestrian 6.8. He had career highs in attempts, completions, completion percentage, yardage and TDs. Without Duece to provide a running game Brees was about all the New Orleans offense had. I'm not sure why you think he had a down year.



Week 1 Saints Lose to Colts
Our inability to convert third downs and keep the ball hurt us," said sean Payton. (Brees also had 2 interceptions)

Manning = 9.6 Yards per attempt
Brees = 4.7 Yards Per Attempt

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

week 2 Saints LOSe to Bucs

The Saints had some success moving the ball on the ground early."I think we have the ability to be a very good offense. One of the best, if not the best, in the league. Unfortunately we're not playing like it right now," said Drew Brees.

Box score

Saints 0 , 0 , 7, 7, (Zero 1st half points by the offense)

Brees 1 interception

Jeff Garcia = 15.2 Yards per attempt
Drew Brees = 5.3 Yards per attempt
--------------------------------------------------------

Week 3 Saints Lose to Titans

Drew Brees who had another miserable game, he had five turnovers. Brees now has just 1 TD pass versus 7 Interceptions on the season.

Vince Young = 7.2 Yards per Attempt
Drew Brees = 4.7 Yards per Attempt

---------------------------------------------------------------
WEEK 4 BYE
----------------------------------------------------------------

Week 5 Saints lose to Panthers

If we continue to make the dumb mistakes, then it's hard for the result to change," said Saints coach Sean Payton. In a tightly contested affair, the Saints only could muster 6 first half points. They also failed to score in the 4th Quarter.

David Carr = 7.8 Yards per Attempt
Drew Brees = 5.4 Yards per attempt (2 more interceptions)
---------------------------------------------------------------

Saints Begin season 0-4 , effectively Ending their Season.

SteelerOfDeVille
07-15-2008, 12:46 PM
[quote="Steel Life":1k03blx0]If Brees has one more down year I think you'll see him drop quickly. If Palmer misses the playoffs again, then I don't see how he could still be considered elite. Th e thing I'm confounded over with Ben's perception is how anyone can continuously overlook his efficiency, gaudy YPA & winning percentage.

An interesting statement about Brees. He was 440/652 (67.5%) for 4,423 yards with 28 TDs, 18 INTs and an 89.4 passer rating. About the only thing that wasn't very good was his ypa which was a pedestrian 6.8. He had career highs in attempts, completions, completion percentage, yardage and TDs. Without Duece to provide a running game Brees was about all the New Orleans offense had. I'm not sure why you think he had a down year.



Week 1 Saints Lose to Colts
Our inability to convert third downs and keep the ball hurt us," said sean Payton. (Brees also had 2 interceptions)

Manning = 9.6 Yards per attempt
Brees = 4.7 Yards Per Attempt

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

week 2 Saints LOSe to Bucs

The Saints had some success moving the ball on the ground early."I think we have the ability to be a very good offense. One of the best, if not the best, in the league. Unfortunately we're not playing like it right now," said Drew Brees.

Box score

Saints 0 , 0 , 7, 7, (Zero 1st half points by the offense)

Brees 1 interception

Jeff Garcia = 15.2 Yards per attempt
Drew Brees = 5.3 Yards per attempt
--------------------------------------------------------

Week 3 Saints Lose to Titans

Drew Brees who had another miserable game, he had five turnovers. Brees now has just 1 TD pass versus 7 Interceptions on the season.

Vince Young = 7.2 Yards per Attempt
Drew Brees = 4.7 Yards per Attempt

---------------------------------------------------------------
WEEK 4 BYE
----------------------------------------------------------------

Week 5 Saints lose to Panthers

If we continue to make the dumb mistakes, then it's hard for the result to change," said Saints coach Sean Payton. In a tightly contested affair, the Saints only could muster 6 first half points. They also failed to score in the 4th Quarter.

David Carr = 7.8 Yards per Attempt
Drew Brees = 5.4 Yards per attempt (2 more interceptions)
---------------------------------------------------------------

Saints Begin season 0-4 , effectively Ending their Season.[/quote:1k03blx0]
he did struggle out of the gate... but, he finished VERY strong... I would guess that only Brady had better numbers for the last 8-10 games of the season.

Mr Smartmonies
07-15-2008, 01:06 PM
[quote="Steel Life":2ltv9xhw]If Brees has one more down year I think you'll see him drop quickly. If Palmer misses the playoffs again, then I don't see how he could still be considered elite. Th e thing I'm confounded over with Ben's perception is how anyone can continuously overlook his efficiency, gaudy YPA & winning percentage.

An interesting statement about Brees. He was 440/652 (67.5%) for 4,423 yards with 28 TDs, 18 INTs and an 89.4 passer rating. About the only thing that wasn't very good was his ypa which was a pedestrian 6.8. He had career highs in attempts, completions, completion percentage, yardage and TDs. Without Duece to provide a running game Brees was about all the New Orleans offense had. I'm not sure why you think he had a down year.



Week 1 Saints Lose to Colts
Our inability to convert third downs and keep the ball hurt us," said sean Payton. (Brees also had 2 interceptions)

Manning = 9.6 Yards per attempt
Brees = 4.7 Yards Per Attempt

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

week 2 Saints LOSe to Bucs

The Saints had some success moving the ball on the ground early."I think we have the ability to be a very good offense. One of the best, if not the best, in the league. Unfortunately we're not playing like it right now," said Drew Brees.

Box score

Saints 0 , 0 , 7, 7, (Zero 1st half points by the offense)

Brees 1 interception

Jeff Garcia = 15.2 Yards per attempt
Drew Brees = 5.3 Yards per attempt
--------------------------------------------------------

Week 3 Saints Lose to Titans

Drew Brees who had another miserable game, he had five turnovers. Brees now has just 1 TD pass versus 7 Interceptions on the season.

Vince Young = 7.2 Yards per Attempt
Drew Brees = 4.7 Yards per Attempt

---------------------------------------------------------------
WEEK 4 BYE
----------------------------------------------------------------

Week 5 Saints lose to Panthers

If we continue to make the dumb mistakes, then it's hard for the result to change," said Saints coach Sean Payton. In a tightly contested affair, the Saints only could muster 6 first half points. They also failed to score in the 4th Quarter.

David Carr = 7.8 Yards per Attempt
Drew Brees = 5.4 Yards per attempt (2 more interceptions)
---------------------------------------------------------------

Saints Begin season 0-4 , effectively Ending their Season.
he did struggle out of the gate... but, he finished VERY strong.[/quote:2ltv9xhw]

The Season was over after game 4. Pressure was off. At that point you just go out and wing it.

Jom112
07-15-2008, 01:11 PM
The Season was over after game 4. Pressure was off. At that point you just go out and wing it.

Not when you play in the pathetic NFC South...

Mr Smartmonies
07-15-2008, 01:27 PM
The Season was over after game 4. Pressure was off. At that point you just go out and wing it.

Not when you play in the pathetic NFC South...

Tampa bay had the division rapped up early. They were able to sit Garcia the last 3
games of the season. I think they were 7-2 at one point.

This is just like Carson Palmer. I don't give a sh it what he does against the Chiefs when he is sitting there 1-6 on the season. Drew Brees is a fantasy football QB. And he has a 0-2 lifetime record against Roethlisberger.

Jom112
07-15-2008, 01:36 PM
Tampa bay had the division rapped up early. They were able to sit Garcia the last 3
games of the season. I think they were 7-2 at one point.

This is just like Carson Palmer. I don't give a sh it what he does against the Chiefs when he is sitting there 1-6 on the season. Drew Brees is a fantasy football QB. And he has a 0-2 lifetime record against Roethlisberger.

So what you're trying to say is David Garrad > Ben Roethlisberger?

Also Tampa finished 9-7. I remember the Lions getting off to a fast start as well last season only to stumble as usual. An 0-4 start is something that can be overcome in the NFC...

steelblood
07-15-2008, 01:41 PM
Carson Palmer is pretty good. He doesn't have anywhere near Ben's mobility, but he is a very accurate passer and throws a beautiful deep ball. I'm not sure why everyone is always so shocked and offended to see him rated above Ben. If Ben outshines Palmer again this year, writers will begin to come around.

Because Palmer has exactly zero post season wins.

But, to be fair, this is because Palmer plays on a team with a horrendous defense more than anything else. They are both good. Why get your lather up over these writers and their rankings?

ikestops85
07-15-2008, 01:57 PM
[quote=ikestops85][quote="Steel Life":3dz7ejub]If Brees has one more down year I think you'll see him drop quickly. If Palmer misses the playoffs again, then I don't see how he could still be considered elite. Th e thing I'm confounded over with Ben's perception is how anyone can continuously overlook his efficiency, gaudy YPA & winning percentage.

An interesting statement about Brees. He was 440/652 (67.5%) for 4,423 yards with 28 TDs, 18 INTs and an 89.4 passer rating. About the only thing that wasn't very good was his ypa which was a pedestrian 6.8. He had career highs in attempts, completions, completion percentage, yardage and TDs. Without Duece to provide a running game Brees was about all the New Orleans offense had. I'm not sure why you think he had a down year.



Week 1 Saints Lose to Colts
Our inability to convert third downs and keep the ball hurt us," said sean Payton. (Brees also had 2 interceptions)

Manning = 9.6 Yards per attempt
Brees = 4.7 Yards Per Attempt

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

week 2 Saints LOSe to Bucs

The Saints had some success moving the ball on the ground early."I think we have the ability to be a very good offense. One of the best, if not the best, in the league. Unfortunately we're not playing like it right now," said Drew Brees.

Box score

Saints 0 , 0 , 7, 7, (Zero 1st half points by the offense)

Brees 1 interception

Jeff Garcia = 15.2 Yards per attempt
Drew Brees = 5.3 Yards per attempt
--------------------------------------------------------

Week 3 Saints Lose to Titans

Drew Brees who had another miserable game, he had five turnovers. Brees now has just 1 TD pass versus 7 Interceptions on the season.

Vince Young = 7.2 Yards per Attempt
Drew Brees = 4.7 Yards per Attempt

---------------------------------------------------------------
WEEK 4 BYE
----------------------------------------------------------------

Week 5 Saints lose to Panthers

If we continue to make the dumb mistakes, then it's hard for the result to change," said Saints coach Sean Payton. In a tightly contested affair, the Saints only could muster 6 first half points. They also failed to score in the 4th Quarter.

David Carr = 7.8 Yards per Attempt
Drew Brees = 5.4 Yards per attempt (2 more interceptions)
---------------------------------------------------------------

Saints Begin season 0-4 , effectively Ending their Season.
he did struggle out of the gate... but, he finished VERY strong.[/quote:3dz7ejub]

The Season was over after game 4. Pressure was off. At that point you just go out and wing it.[/quote:3dz7ejub]

Puhleez ... they were 2 games back of TB when the teams met in week 13. If they had won that week then they would be 1 game back with 4 to play. You would have to lose your 1st 8 games in the NFCS before you could say your season is over. You have to admit stat wise that Brees had a pretty good season ... not a down year. The Saints on the other hand had a down year. Well, not really, they just felt the effects of playing a 1st place schedule and sank back to the level of their talent. You will see basically the same thing happen to the browns this year.

steeld95
07-15-2008, 02:57 PM
Is there really any point in debating this? Is their any Steeler fan that would trade Ben for any of the other two? I know I wouldn't....but converly if you ask the fans of the Saints or Bengals, they probably wouldn't trade their qb's for Ben either....Bottom line is...who cares what writers say...as long as Ben wins, thats all I care about.

Mr Smartmonies
07-15-2008, 03:39 PM
Also Tampa finished 9-7. I remember the Lions getting off to a fast start as well last season only to stumble as usual. An 0-4 start is something that can be overcome in the NFC...

The Season was over. They sat out half their teamlast 3 games. The lost 3 out
4 to close the season. Find me a few teams that made the playoffs starting 0-4.
YOur season is cooked at that point. its common sense.

Jom112
07-15-2008, 03:45 PM
[quote="Mr Smartmonies":3p2ot6qm]
Also Tampa finished 9-7. I remember the Lions getting off to a fast start as well last season only to stumble as usual. An 0-4 start is something that can be overcome in the NFC...

The Season was over. They sat out half their teamlast 3 games. The lost 3 out
4 to close the season. Find me a few teams that made the playoffs starting 0-4.
YOur season is cooked at that point. its common sense.[/quote:3p2ot6qm]

The point that you're missing is that at 0-4 your season is not over. There is still something to play for and you shouldn't give up. The Saints didn't and they came close to catching Tampa in the second half of the season. The statement that Brees had nothing to play was just made to support your argument not because it's a valid statement.

Also the Chargers did it back in the 90's. It's not a common occurrence but it can be done and has been done, which is why you don't give up. I figured a Steelers fan would understand that (*cough* 2005 *cough*)...

ikestops85
07-15-2008, 04:07 PM
[The Season was over. They sat out half their teamlast 3 games. The lost 3 out
4 to close the season. Find me a few teams that made the playoffs starting 0-4.
YOur season is cooked at that point. its common sense.

The point that you're missing is that at 0-4 your season is not over. There is still something to play for and you shouldn't give up. The Saints didn't and they came close to catching Tampa in the second half of the season. The statement that Brees had nothing to play was just made to support your argument not because it's a valid statement.

Also the Chargers did it back in the 90's. It's not a common occurrence but it can be done and has been done, which is why you don't give up. I figured a Steelers fan would understand that (*cough* 2005 *cough*)...

I also figured a Steelers fan would understand that (*cough* 1976 *cough*). It seems a Steeler team started out 1-4 and ended up doing pretty well for the year.

Mr Smartmonies
07-15-2008, 04:44 PM
Carson Palmer is pretty good. He doesn't have anywhere near Ben's mobility, but he is a very accurate passer and throws a beautiful deep ball. I'm not sure why everyone is always so shocked and offended to see him rated above Ben. If Ben outshines Palmer again this year, writers will begin to come around.

Because Palmer has exactly zero post season wins.

But, to be fair, this is because Palmer plays on a team with a horrendous defense more than anything else. They are both good. Why get your lather up over these writers and their rankings?

Palmer ranked 18th in the NFL last year in 3rd down passing.

At week 9, he was 2nd to last on third down and 4th QTR passing.

While Ben averaged 11 YPA at 67% completion percentage on 3rd 8-10. Palmer
could only average 6 YPA at like 59%. The difference is absolutely huge. And this difference has nothing to do with the Steelers having Casey hampton and the Bengals not having him/ There were 5 games the bengals lost that could have easily been won if it were for better 3rd down and 4th QTR passing. And its not like Palmer lacks weapons.

The truth is that in 2005 the Bengals too k the NFL by storm. They caught everyone by surprise and no one new how to deal with their offense. This is not the first time nor will it be the last time a new high powered offense exposes the league for a season. You don't need to look to far back and see a Browns team that caught everyone off guard with their high wire act. (well I kind of wasn't caught offguard. http://discuss.pittsburghlive.com/viewt ... 64#1639964 (http://discuss.pittsburghlive.com/viewtopic.php?p=1639964&bypass=1639964#1639964)

But you see my point. The Saints were another team that offensively came out of nowhere with a high flying offense. They were studied in the off season and then things the following season "just didn't seem to go right."

bottom line is that the Bengals offense took the league by storm 2 years ago, and
have not been able to muster any sort of repeat performance. Not even close!
it would not be fair to criticize Palmer for not having a SB ring. His team has not been good enough. But his offense has been plenty talented over the past 4 years. If you go back to the end of 2006, he needed to win 1 out of the last 3 games tomakethe playoffs.
After losing the first two, he simply needed to beat the Steelers at home to make it in.
The steelers were just coming off a beating by the Baltimore ravens. They had no playoff hopes what so ever. Palmer had the perfect opportunity to BURY the steelers right then and there and get his team to the playoffs. Yet it didn't happen. Palmer should have lit the steelers up early and often and the game should not have been close. yet his offense, at home , couldn't muster more than 3 points for the first 3 QTR's of the game. We going to blame the Bengals defense for this game as well? Those losses at the end of that 2006 season , were telling. You just can't let those opportunities slip away. And he followed that up with perhaps his worst season ever as a starter.

Mr Smartmonies
07-15-2008, 05:03 PM
[quote="Mr Smartmonies":25ld56jy]
Also Tampa finished 9-7. I remember the Lions getting off to a fast start as well last season only to stumble as usual. An 0-4 start is something that can be overcome in the NFC...

The Season was over. They sat out half their teamlast 3 games. The lost 3 out
4 to close the season. Find me a few teams that made the playoffs starting 0-4.
YOur season is cooked at that point. its common sense.

The point that you're missing is that at 0-4 your season is not over. There is still something to play for and you shouldn't give up. The Saints didn't and they came close to catching Tampa in the second half of the season. ...[/quote:25ld56jy]

Brees Averaged a meager 5.8 Yards per Attempt and threw 3 interceptions in his last two games. If the saints had any kind of chance to catch the bucs, he wasn't helping the Cause. :roll:

Jom112
07-15-2008, 05:40 PM
[quote=Jom112][quote="Mr Smartmonies":28ohsmzd]
Also Tampa finished 9-7. I remember the Lions getting off to a fast start as well last season only to stumble as usual. An 0-4 start is something that can be overcome in the NFC...

The Season was over. They sat out half their teamlast 3 games. The lost 3 out
4 to close the season. Find me a few teams that made the playoffs starting 0-4.
YOur season is cooked at that point. its common sense.

The point that you're missing is that at 0-4 your season is not over. There is still something to play for and you shouldn't give up. The Saints didn't and they came close to catching Tampa in the second half of the season. ...[/quote:28ohsmzd]

Brees Averaged a meager 5.8 Yards per Attempt and threw 3 interceptions in his last two games. If the saints had any kind of chance to catch the bucs, he wasn't helping the Cause. :roll:[/quote:28ohsmzd]

Hence, why I said Ben is definitely a better QB than Brees. That still doesn't validate your statement that Brees had nothing to play for after week 4.

Your a smart guy MSM, but you need to learn how to give in sometimes when you make an inaccurate statement. Instead of digging in and just throwing around stats...

Mr Smartmonies
07-15-2008, 09:25 PM
Jon, I am going to repost my original thoughts below. The post was about the Saints struggles a year ago. The first 4 games set the tone for the entire season .They dug a grave that , to my knowledge, few teams if any have ever dug themselves out of.
But thepoint of these thoughts were not intended to get us caught up in discussing
th amount of effort that Drew Brees should put forth from game 5 on. The thoughts were to shed light on the Many struggles of the New orleans saints in 2007. I will edit my last statement so that you don't hung up on little stuff.

Week 1 Saints Lose to Colts
Our inability to convert third downs and keep the ball hurt us," said sean Payton. (Brees also had 2 interceptions)

Manning = 9.6 Yards per attempt
Brees = 4.7 Yards Per Attempt

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

week 2 Saints LOSe to Bucs

The Saints had some success moving the ball on the ground early."I think we have the ability to be a very good offense. One of the best, if not the best, in the league. Unfortunately we're not playing like it right now," said Drew Brees.

Box score

Saints 0 , 0 , 7, 7, (Zero 1st half points by the offense)

Brees 1 interception

Jeff Garcia = 15.2 Yards per attempt
Drew Brees = 5.3 Yards per attempt
--------------------------------------------------------

Week 3 Saints Lose to Titans

Drew Brees who had another miserable game, he had five turnovers. Brees now has just 1 TD pass versus 7 Interceptions on the season.

Vince Young = 7.2 Yards per Attempt
Drew Brees = 4.7 Yards per Attempt

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WEEK 4 BYE
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Week 5 Saints lose to Panthers

If we continue to make the dumb mistakes, then it's hard for the result to change," said Saints coach Sean Payton. In a tightly contested affair, the Saints only could muster 6 first half points. They also failed to score in the 4th Quarter.

David Carr = 7.8 Yards per Attempt
Drew Brees = 5.4 Yards per attempt (2 more interceptions)
---------------------------------------------------------------

Saints Begin season 0-4, a typical graveyard start for playoff hopeful teams.

proudpittsburgher
07-16-2008, 07:17 AM
No stats from me, but I got a kick out of the guy who said the Steelers would take Eli Manning straight up for Ben in a heartbeat. :shock:

stlrz d
07-16-2008, 07:28 AM
No stats from me, but I got a kick out of the guy who said the Steelers would take Eli Manning straight up for Ben in a heartbeat. :shock:

I'm always amazed by how little credit Ben gets for what he's done. On a Ravens board I frequent someone started a most over rated of all time and there wasn't any mention of Ben...eventually someone asked why and others chimed in that no one really thinks much of him, he's not good enough to be over rated, blah blah blah.

It's ok Ratstains fans...just keep disregarding him. :twisted:

ikestops85
07-16-2008, 12:56 PM
No stats from me, but I got a kick out of the guy who said the Steelers would take Eli Manning straight up for Ben in a heartbeat. :shock:

I'm always amazed by how little credit Ben gets for what he's done. On a Ravens board I frequent someone started a most over rated of all time and there wasn't any mention of Ben...eventually someone asked why and others chimed in that no one really thinks much of him, he's not good enough to be over rated, blah blah blah.

It's ok Ratstains fans...just keep disregarding him. :twisted:

They had the same thread over on a bengals board. Many there listed him as being the most over-rated. I just laugh.

Mr Smartmonies
07-16-2008, 01:00 PM
No stats from me, but I got a kick out of the guy who said the Steelers would take Eli Manning straight up for Ben in a heartbeat. :shock:

I'm always amazed by how little credit Ben gets for what he's done. :

That's why I try my best to spread the word. The truth. Think about it. Peter King had
Ben listed 17th last year while he had Kitna and Cutler at 9 & 10. what does that tell you? It tells me that a Hall of Fame Voter has effectively given Roethlisberger little or no credit at all for that Championship march in 2005, as well as the 1st two years over all.
I have been proven statistically that Ben was the catalyst. He was the difference maker.
But a hall of fame voter didn't even think he belonged in Kitna country. Ultimately, my life won't change one bit. But you could be looking at another great Pittsburgh Steeler that one day could be on the outside looking in at canton OHio. The book on Roethlisberger has been wrote by th media. He had nothing to do with the Steelers run first two years.

Jom112
07-16-2008, 01:25 PM
That's why I try my best to spread the word. The truth. Think about it. Peter King had
Ben listed 17th last year while he had Kitna and Cutler at 9 & 10. what does that tell you? It tells me that a Hall of Fame Voter has effectively given Roethlisberger little or no credit at all for that Championship march in 2005, as well as the 1st two years over all.
I have been proven statistically that Ben was the catalyst. He was the difference maker.
But a hall of fame voter didn't even think he belonged in Kitna country. Ultimately, my life won't change one bit. But you could be looking at another great Pittsburgh Steeler that one day could be on the outside looking in at canton OHio. The book on Roethlisberger has been wrote by th media. He had nothing to do with the Steelers run first two years.

I would take whatever Peter King says with a grain of salt. The only bigger tool than him is Jason Whitlock.

King has a hard on for Brady and the whole AFC East. I remember how he put Kerry Rhodes the safety for the Jets above Polamalu and Ed Reed. So it's not just a biased against Ben, he just has a biased period...

Mr Smartmonies
07-16-2008, 01:51 PM
That's why I try my best to spread the word. The truth. Think about it. Peter King had
Ben listed 17th last year while he had Kitna and Cutler at 9 & 10. what does that tell you? It tells me that a Hall of Fame Voter has effectively given Roethlisberger little or no credit at all for that Championship march in 2005, as well as the 1st two years over all.
I have been proven statistically that Ben was the catalyst. He was the difference maker.
But a hall of fame voter didn't even think he belonged in Kitna country. Ultimately, my life won't change one bit. But you could be looking at another great Pittsburgh Steeler that one day could be on the outside looking in at canton OHio. The book on Roethlisberger has been wrote by th media. He had nothing to do with the Steelers run first two years.

I would take whatever Peter King says with a grain of salt. The only bigger tool than him is Jason Whitlock.

King has a hard on for Brady and the whole AFC East. I remember how he put Kerry Rhodes the safety for the Jets above Polamalu and Ed Reed. So it's not just a biased against Ben, he just has a biased period...

Peter King has been the ring leader of those Voters who have led the charge to keep
Steelers out of the hall of fame. King said is himself. He said " he just can't see anymore Pittsburgh steelers in the hall of fame." He was referring to the 70's team of course. But
then he has carried that over to Dermonti Dawson. He literally is not voting for Dawson because he thinks too many steelers are in the hall. He is to be taken seriously. He messes with people's careers.

stlrz d
07-16-2008, 02:04 PM
No stats from me, but I got a kick out of the guy who said the Steelers would take Eli Manning straight up for Ben in a heartbeat. :shock:

I'm always amazed by how little credit Ben gets for what he's done. On a Ravens board I frequent someone started a most over rated of all time and there wasn't any mention of Ben...eventually someone asked why and others chimed in that no one really thinks much of him, he's not good enough to be over rated, blah blah blah.

It's ok Ratstains fans...just keep disregarding him. :twisted:

They had the same thread over on a bengals board. Many there listed him as being the most over-rated. I just laugh.

You wanna know what's really funny? Those Rats fans all berate Palmer as well and then when someone started a thread asking them to rank the AFCN starting QBs they all put Palmer at #1...simply because they couldn't bring themselves to admit that a Steelers QB was better.

:Hater s

Jom112
07-16-2008, 02:11 PM
You wanna know what's really funny? Those Rats fans all berate Palmer as well and then when someone started a thread asking them to rank the AFCN starting QBs they all put Palmer at #1...simply because they couldn't bring themselves to admit that a Steelers QB was better.

:Hater s

They rate Palmer #1 because he owns the Ravens.




Owns them!!!

Ozey74
07-17-2008, 08:43 PM
Also consider that for Cincy to improve the defensive side of the ball, Palmer might have to give up a Chad Johnson or a TJ housch. Maybe that pretty ball won't look as good throwing to Cedric if you know what i mean. in the meantime if Palmer could just improve on third down , he might be the one guy that helps his defenee the most by keeping them off the field.

It didn't help Cinci's defense that up and coming Odell Thurman had/has drug problems, and 1st round pick David Pollack broke his neck.

We keep referencing Palmer's lack of post-season wins...even though the only chance he got, he was knocked out of the game on the second play.

All in all I think he is good, but Ben is better. Like Jom said, no need to tear down Palmer just to validate Ben. His numbers speak for themselves.
I think Carson is the better pure passer and Ben is the better playmaker.

I'll take the playmaker over the passer anyday!!!
You'd take Mike Vick over Peyton Manning?

No. First and foremost, they have to win (Peyton and Ben are both winners).

It's like if somebody says "I perfer blondes over brunettes."
Does this mean they would bag Betty White instead of Jessica Alba if given a choice?
Most likely no.

SteelTorch
07-18-2008, 08:51 AM
Actually, I agree with a lot of those rankings (which is a first for me). I'd have Brady at #2 though, Spygate being a big reason.

They also said the same thing about Derek Anderson I've been saying: he took the league by surprise, and everyone started figuring him out by the time the second half rolled around. The only reason he still put up numbers is because he was surrounded by offensive talent. :nono

If you're ever bored enough, just compare his first-half season stats with his second-half season stats. (It's actually not that hard, just cut and paste in excel). I think you'll find his YPA dropped to a pathetic 6.2, his rating dropped by almost 20, TD/Int ratio was almost one, threw for over 400 yards less, and his completion percentage was a pitiful 54%. Stats are NOT everything, and don't tell the whole story, b ut there's no denying his production dropped.

Now to be fair, Big Ben's numbers dropped, too. But I'm not as worried about that because:
A) That's natural
B) His numbers dropped from excellent to good, while Derek Anderson's numbers dropped from good to just pathetic.