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Mr Smartmonies
07-07-2008, 08:36 PM
Passer Rating with 2 WR's (at least 6.25 attempts per game)

1 Tom Brady NE 158.3
2 Todd Collins Was 129.3
3 Matt Moore Car 119.4
4 A.J. Feeley Phi 110.4
5 Carson Palmer Cin 109.4
6 Chris Redman Atl 107.6
7 Donovan McNabb Phi 103.6
8 Luke McCown TB 101.5
9 Jeff Garcia TB 101.2
10 Ben Roethlisberger Pit 98.7
11 Jake Delhomme Car 96.5
12 Jason Campbell Was 96.3
13 Drew Brees NO 94.6
14 David Garrard Jac 93.3
15 Kurt Warner Ari 92.6
16 Tony Romo Dal 91.5
17 Marc Bulger StL 91.2
18 Brett Favre GB 89.4
19 Matt Hasselbeck Sea 89.3
20 Josh McCown Oak 88.8



Passer ratings with 3 Wr's (at least 6.25 attempts per game)

1 Tom Brady NE 130.1
2 David Garrard Jac 101.4
3 Kurt Warner Ari 100.8
4 Peyton Manning Ind 98.3
5 Brett Favre GB 97.4
6 Tony Romo Dal 90.9
7 Jay Cutler Den 89.9
8 Drew Brees NO 88.2
9 Ben Roethlisberger Pit 86.4
10 Donovan McNabb Phi 84.9
11 Derek Anderson Cle 84.3
12 Matt Schaub Hou 83.1
13 Carson Palmer Cin 82.6
14 Joey Harrington Atl 80.5
15 Daunte Culpepper Oak 78.4
16 Jeff Garcia TB 78.4
17 Kyle Boller Bal 77.7
18 Matt Hasselbeck Sea 76.8
19 Eli Manning NYG 76.4
20 Philip Rivers SD 76.3

Passer ratings with 4 or more WR's (at least 6.25 attempts per game)

1 Ben Roethlisberger Pit 109.3
2 Matt Hasselbeck Sea 108.8
3 Tom Brady NE 103.8
4 Brett Favre GB 91.2
5 Jon Kitna Det 90.3
6 Drew Brees NO 87.7
7 Donovan McNabb Phi 85.5
8 Chad Pennington NYJ 84.4
9 Philip Rivers SD 83.5
10 Carson Palmer Cin 79.6
11 Jason Campbell Was 78.8
12 Kurt Warner Ari 76.6
13 Derek Anderson Cle 74.0
14 Vince Young Ten 73.3
15 Cleo Lemon Mia 71.4
16 Kellen Clemens NYJ 64.6

Passer ratings from the Shotgun

1 Tom Brady NE 106.4
2 Ben Roethlisberger Pit 104.6
3 Sage Rosenfels Hou 104.3
4 David Garrard Jac 100.8
5 Todd Collins Was 99.8
6 Brett Favre GB 94.4
7 Tony Romo Dal 93.0
8 Chad Pennington NYJ 92.1
9 Troy Smith Bal 91.8
10 Peyton Manning Ind 91.1
11 Matt Hasselbeck Sea 91.0
12 Jake Delhomme Car 89.7
13 Shaun Hill SF 87.9
14 Kurt Warner Ari 87.9
15 Chris Redman Atl 86.3
16 Brian Griese Chi 85.9
17 Jay Cutler Den 83.3
18 Quinn Gray Jac 83.2
19 Philip Rivers SD 80.4
20 Jeff Garcia TB 80.0


Why the drop on Passer rating when we got to 3Wr's ?

Why so good when were in 4 wides and shotgun?

NKySteeler
07-07-2008, 08:47 PM
Why the drop on Passer rating when we got to 3Wr's ?

Maybe less blocking available and more time looking down-field resulting in sacks/hurries/knock-downs.

Why so good when were in 4 wides and shotgun?

From the "gun" he's immediately looking thru his progression, and possibly hitting the slant. But either way, he's got more time to "look" opposed to "set up"...

Mr Smartmonies
07-07-2008, 08:50 PM
why didn't Arians stay with the spread offense after that 1st possession? I don't think we saw it again until 2nd half. (I may be wrong)

NKySteeler
07-07-2008, 08:54 PM
why didn't Arians stay with the spread offense after that 1st Position? I don't think we saw it again until 2nd half. (I may be wrong)

Because Arians is a moron of an OC that cannot adjust to the ebb/flow of a game with adjustments, and a second-rate coach at best. He will not be able to get this team past the WC, just as he couldn't in Cleveland..... Not that I'm sayin' anything... Just my :2c .

Mr Smartmonies
07-07-2008, 08:58 PM
why didn't Arians stay with the spread offense after that 1st Position? I don't think we saw it again until 2nd half. (I may be wrong)

Because Arians is a moron of an OC that cannot adjust to the ebb/flow of a game with adjustments, and a second-rate coach at best. He will not be able to get this team past the WC, just as he couldn't in Cleveland..... Not that I'm sayin' anything... Just my :2c .

YOu maybe right. I am scared now.

Jom112
07-07-2008, 09:34 PM
I'll start off with a couple of points:

1. When you have more WR's, you'll obviously have less blockers. Which is fine when you going against the "stellar" pass rush of say the Bengals defense twice a season. But when you go against a defense twice a season like the Steelers you need more blockers to stay back.

2. In addition when you have 3 or 4 WR sets, you get mis-matches going on with the TE (Or a pass catching RB). Who usually gets covered at that point by a slower, shorter LB. So when you don't have a TE to throw to, it's harder to be successful when you go to 3 and 4 WR sets.

Also 6.25 is an odd # of attempts (Although I do believe I've seen that # somewhere before). Any reason you picked that number?

Shawn
07-07-2008, 10:50 PM
Jom...I have to disagree. First when you run shotgun 5 wr sets...it spreads out a D. It makes it much harder to blitz. Take the Steelers a few years back. I can't remember the year but the Pats figured out if you spread the Steelers out...our blitz was much less effective. It allows the QB to be able to read and know where the blitz is coming from. It's much harder to disquise a blitz when the opposition in in 4-5 wide. Not to mention it can take away a teams ability to take the field with their blitzing LBs. Most teams must match up with the very least a nickle package.

This is why Ben thrived in the 4-5 wide sets. It put him into shotgun and made it harder for the opposition to blitz...and disguise the blitz. Ben in this situation will pick a D apart. The reason Ariens didn't use it more often is unfathomable. I believe that's MSMs point...and it's a good one.

Shawn
07-07-2008, 11:21 PM
PS: I could be wrong but I believe the 6.25 is a number set to give statistical significance to the passer rating. I don't believe MSM set that number himself.

Mr Smartmonies
07-07-2008, 11:23 PM
I'll start off with a couple of points:

1. When you have more WR's, you'll obviously have less blockers. Which is fine when you going against the "stellar" pass rush of say the Bengals defense twice a season. But when you go against a defense twice a season like the Steelers you need more blockers to stay back.

2. In addition when you have 3 or 4 WR sets, you get mis-matches going on with the TE (Or a pass catching RB). Who usually gets covered at that point by a slower, shorter LB. So when you don't have a TE to throw to, it's harder to be successful when you go to 3 and 4 WR sets.

Also 6.25 is an odd # of attempts (Although I do believe I've seen that # somewhere before). Any reason you picked that number?

That is the common number all or most official stats companies use.

Mr Smartmonies
07-07-2008, 11:25 PM
Jom...I have to disagree. First when you run shotgun 5 wr sets...it spreads out a D. It makes it much harder to blitz. Take the Steelers a few years back. I can't remember the year but the Pats figured out if you spread the Steelers out...our blitz was much less effective. It allows the QB to be able to read and know where the blitz is coming from. It's much harder to disquise a blitz when the opposition in in 4-5 wide. Not to mention it can take away a teams ability to take the field with their blitzing LBs. Most teams must match up with the very least a nickle package.

This is why Ben thrived in the 4-5 wide sets. It put him into shotgun and made it harder for the opposition to blitz...and disguise the blitz. Ben in this situation will pick a D apart. The reason Ariens didn't use it more often is unfathomable. I believe that's MSMs point...and it's a good one.

correct. The Steelers should have scrapped the slow 7 step drops that practically encourage the line to break down. And didn't Ben play a shotgun / spread offense in college?

NKySteeler
07-07-2008, 11:35 PM
The Steelers should have scrapped the slow 7 step drops that practically encourage the line to break down. And didn't Ben play a shotgun / spread offense in college?

Obviously he did... That is what won him so much noteriety his Junior year... And BTW, you can factor in that we had a "younger-than-normal" qb the first season since he forwent his senior year.... Unlike most.

Shawn
07-07-2008, 11:49 PM
Jom...I have to disagree. First when you run shotgun 5 wr sets...it spreads out a D. It makes it much harder to blitz. Take the Steelers a few years back. I can't remember the year but the Pats figured out if you spread the Steelers out...our blitz was much less effective. It allows the QB to be able to read and know where the blitz is coming from. It's much harder to disquise a blitz when the opposition in in 4-5 wide. Not to mention it can take away a teams ability to take the field with their blitzing LBs. Most teams must match up with the very least a nickle package.

This is why Ben thrived in the 4-5 wide sets. It put him into shotgun and made it harder for the opposition to blitz...and disguise the blitz. Ben in this situation will pick a D apart. The reason Ariens didn't use it more often is unfathomable. I believe that's MSMs point...and it's a good one.

correct. The Steelers should have scrapped the slow 7 step drops that practically encourage the line to break down. And didn't Ben play a shotgun / spread offense in college?

Yup...so again why wasn't Ariens using more of it? I would have loved to see Ariens break a D down with no huddle 4-5 wide sets two to three times a game. Change it up...I mean dayum Ben has proven he thrives in these sets and situations. I truely believe I could coach this O better.

Jom112
07-07-2008, 11:59 PM
Jom...I have to disagree. First when you run shotgun 5 wr sets...it spreads out a D. It makes it much harder to blitz. Take the Steelers a few years back. I can't remember the year but the Pats figured out if you spread the Steelers out...our blitz was much less effective. It allows the QB to be able to read and know where the blitz is coming from. It's much harder to disquise a blitz when the opposition in in 4-5 wide. Not to mention it can take away a teams ability to take the field with their blitzing LBs. Most teams must match up with the very least a nickle package.

This is why Ben thrived in the 4-5 wide sets. It put him into shotgun and made it harder for the opposition to blitz...and disguise the blitz. Ben in this situation will pick a D apart. The reason Ariens didn't use it more often is unfathomable. I believe that's MSMs point...and it's a good one.

5 wide receiver sets, yes. 3 wide receiver sets, no.

4 wide, we'll flip a coin to see which side that falls on... :lol:





That is the common number all or most official stats companies use.

Thanks, I knew the # looked familar. Just wasn't sure from where...

Mr Smartmonies
07-08-2008, 12:14 AM
The Steelers should have scrapped the slow 7 step drops that practically encourage the line to break down. And didn't Ben play a shotgun / spread offense in college?

Obviously he did... That is what won him so much noteriety his Junior year... And BTW, you can factor in that we had a "younger-than-normal" qb the first season since he forwent his senior year.... Unlike most.

your absolutely right. But it doesn't matter. You can't convince them. Just let Ben keep beating their heads in.

RuthlessBurgher
07-08-2008, 12:29 AM
Brady had a perfect passer rating when 2 WR's were in the game!?!?

sd steel
07-08-2008, 01:24 AM
It's pretty hard to run out of a shotgun 5 receiver set.

Yes we could be a high octane passing offense all of the time, but if the defense knows this, they will eventually find a way to stop it.

You can blame Arians, but we do have a pretty good ground game, and it eats the clock. Coaches need to mix it up. If they don't most teams will solve your puzzle rather quickly. BTW, I don't count any of Brady's* stats, because he is a cheater. It's easier to complete passes if you know what the defense is doing before the play.

I agree Arians should go no huddle shotgun 4 and 5 receiver sets more often, but we still have to grind it to win, IMO.

Hogerules33
07-08-2008, 03:44 AM
It's pretty hard to run out of a shotgun 5 receiver set.


Agreed, seeing as how in a 5 wide set there is no running back lol :Cheers



Yes we could be a high octane passing offense all of the time, but if the defense knows this, they will eventually find a way to stop it.

You can blame Arians, but we do have a pretty good ground game, and it eats the clock. Coaches need to mix it up. If they don't most teams will solve your puzzle rather quickly. BTW, I don't count any of Brady's* stats, because he is a cheater. It's easier to complete passes if you know what the defense is doing before the play.

I agree Arians should go no huddle shotgun 4 and 5 receiver sets more often, but we still have to grind it to win, IMO.

I agree with everything you say here. Shotgun 4 and 5 receiver sets are nice when you need to score quickly, or when you want to mix it up, but it is not something you can do all the time in the NFL. With a strong running game you can control the tempo of the game, and control the clock especially. You can also use the run to set up the pass (play-action, etc). I'd love to see Ben's play-action stats compared to other QB's in the NFL, as I bet they are quite high.

There are some teams in college that use a shotgun 4/5 wide set as their base offense (Texas Tech, Hawaii, others). Their QB's put up disgusting numbers each year, but it is a one dimensional offense that is successful for two reasons mainly. First, not many defenses are used to seeing it, so there is a preparation factor. Secondly, in college receivers only need 1 foot in bounds for a catch, which helps tremendously for clock management in a passing based system.

stlrz d
07-08-2008, 07:16 AM
http://campussqueeze.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/kgun.png



:lol: :lol: :lol:

ANPSTEEL
07-08-2008, 07:24 AM
i'll suggest to you that

2 wide is almost certainly 1st and 2nd down.

with 3 wide being 3rd (and long) which is why the lesser rating

but keeping in mind that

4 wide is indeed the "KGun" which is run from the shotgun.




you want to see something odd on that list... look for Peyton Manning...

apparently the colts only run 3 wide- or there is a mistake with the list.

frankthetank1
07-08-2008, 09:24 AM
Brady had a perfect passer rating when 2 WR's were in the game!?!?

i dont think that means much of anything. how often were they in a 2 wr set? id bet less than 15 % of the time

Jom112
07-08-2008, 09:41 AM
Brady had a perfect passer rating when 2 WR's were in the game!?!?

i dont think that means much of anything. how often were they in a 2 wr set? id bet less than 15 % of the time

I would say about as often as you guys use 5 wide sets...

frankthetank1
07-08-2008, 09:52 AM
Brady had a perfect passer rating when 2 WR's were in the game!?!?

i dont think that means much of anything. how often were they in a 2 wr set? id bet less than 15 % of the time

I would say about as often as you guys use 5 wide sets...


yea that sounds about right. what team would use 5 wr sets with nate washington and ced wilson as their number 3 and 4 wr

RuthlessBurgher
07-08-2008, 10:16 AM
Brady had a perfect passer rating when 2 WR's were in the game!?!?

i dont think that means much of anything. how often were they in a 2 wr set? id bet less than 15 % of the time

Well, their top 2 WR's were Moss and Welker. When Donte "Nicco" Stallworth came into the game as a 3rd WR, Brady's passer rating dropped significantly. I'm glad the Browns are counting on this alien-possessed wideout as a starter. :lol: :brownssuck

Shawn
07-08-2008, 10:17 AM
It's pretty hard to run out of a shotgun 5 receiver set.

Yes we could be a high octane passing offense all of the time, but if the defense knows this, they will eventually find a way to stop it.

You can blame Arians, but we do have a pretty good ground game, and it eats the clock. Coaches need to mix it up. If they don't most teams will solve your puzzle rather quickly. BTW, I don't count any of Brady's* stats, because he is a cheater. It's easier to complete passes if you know what the defense is doing before the play.

I agree Arians should go no huddle shotgun 4 and 5 receiver sets more often, but we still have to grind it to win, IMO.

That's why you splash the pot with it sporatically. It doesn't become the mainstay of your O but seeing it...no huddle 4-5 wide should be in the game plan 2-3 times a game.

Jom112
07-08-2008, 10:27 AM
That's why you splash the pot with it sporatically. It doesn't become the mainstay of your O but seeing it...no huddle 4-5 wide should be in the game plan 2-3 times a game.

:Agree

You guys should be using more 4 and 5 wide sets. Especially considering the lack of CB depth that our division has. The Ravens backups are garbage, Clevelend is looking even worse now after losing bodden and another corner for the season to an injury...

Shawn
07-08-2008, 10:29 AM
And let me add something here. I have been saying this for awhile now. A good O IMO should/can show all sorts of looks...3TE sets....dual back shotgun sets, 5 wide, Tall Wr sets etc and so on. When you can do all this well...you can exploit EVERY teams weakness instead of just being able to handle 80% of the teams. If I were coaching...I would want my team to be as versatile as possible. This assures your team that you can game plan around any teams weakness.

Shawn
07-08-2008, 10:31 AM
That's why you splash the pot with it sporatically. It doesn't become the mainstay of your O but seeing it...no huddle 4-5 wide should be in the game plan 2-3 times a game.

:Agree

You guys should be using more 4 and 5 wide sets. Especially considering the lack of CB depth that our division has. The Ravens backups are garbage, Clevelend is looking even worse now after losing bodden and another corner for the season to an injury...

Exactly...our division weakness revolves around poor secondarys...why on this green earth wouldn't you exploit that with Ben and our WR crew?

Jigawatts
07-08-2008, 01:06 PM
That's why you splash the pot with it sporatically. It doesn't become the mainstay of your O but seeing it...no huddle 4-5 wide should be in the game plan 2-3 times a game.

:Agree

You guys should be using more 4 and 5 wide sets. Especially considering the lack of CB depth that our division has. The Ravens backups are garbage, Clevelend is looking even worse now after losing bodden and another corner for the season to an injury...

Exactly...our division weakness revolves around poor secondarys...why on this green earth wouldn't you exploit that with Ben and our WR crew?

Because that's not Steelers football. :Blah :roll:

SteelerOfDeVille
07-08-2008, 07:01 PM
PS: I could be wrong but I believe the 6.25 is a number set to give statistical significance to the passer rating. I don't believe MSM set that number himself.
I also get the impression that this is "total passes".

I can't imagine that Ben averaged over 6.25 passes per game in each of those formations....

papillon
07-08-2008, 10:01 PM
And let me add something here. I have been saying this for awhile now. A good O IMO should/can show all sorts of looks...3TE sets....dual back shotgun sets, 5 wide, Tall Wr sets etc and so on. When you can do all this well...you can exploit EVERY teams weakness instead of just being able to handle 80% of the teams. If I were coaching...I would want my team to be as versatile as possible. This assures your team that you can game plan around any teams weakness.

If you try to be too versatile and always game plan around another team's weakness you run the risk of not doing those that your team does best (whatever that may be). I'm a supporter of versatility, but, only to the degree that the players' skills allow. I think in a few games last year the Steelers tried exploiting a weakness on the other team, the problem was, the Steelers didn't really have the personnel to do this.

Pappy

RuthlessBurgher
07-08-2008, 11:58 PM
And let me add something here. I have been saying this for awhile now. A good O IMO should/can show all sorts of looks...3TE sets....dual back shotgun sets, 5 wide, Tall Wr sets etc and so on. When you can do all this well...you can exploit EVERY teams weakness instead of just being able to handle 80% of the teams. If I were coaching...I would want my team to be as versatile as possible. This assures your team that you can game plan around any teams weakness.

If you try to be too versatile and always game plan around another team's weakness you run the risk of not doing those that your team does best (whatever that may be). I'm a supporter of versatility, but, only to the degree that the players' skills allow. I think in a few games last year the Steelers tried exploiting a weakness on the other team, the problem was, the Steelers didn't really have the personnel to do this.

Pappy

With the variety of different styles and sizes amongst the WR's now with Ward, Holmes, Sweed, Washington, and Baker, plus twin threats at TE with Miller and Spaeth, and a plethora of options in your rushing attack with Parker, Mendenhall, Moore, Russell, and Davis, this team can go double tight smashmouth just as easily as it can go empty backfield 5 wide. The variety of weapons at Ben's disposal now means that we can play to the opponents weaknesses every week, since we theoretically should be able to line up in seemingly endless different combinations of personnel now.

Shawn
07-09-2008, 12:20 AM
And let me add something here. I have been saying this for awhile now. A good O IMO should/can show all sorts of looks...3TE sets....dual back shotgun sets, 5 wide, Tall Wr sets etc and so on. When you can do all this well...you can exploit EVERY teams weakness instead of just being able to handle 80% of the teams. If I were coaching...I would want my team to be as versatile as possible. This assures your team that you can game plan around any teams weakness.

If you try to be too versatile and always game plan around another team's weakness you run the risk of not doing those that your team does best (whatever that may be). I'm a supporter of versatility, but, only to the degree that the players' skills allow. I think in a few games last year the Steelers tried exploiting a weakness on the other team, the problem was, the Steelers didn't really have the personnel to do this.

Pappy

With the variety of different styles and sizes amongst the WR's now with Ward, Holmes, Sweed, Washington, and Baker, plus twin threats at TE with Miller and Spaeth, and a plethora of options in your rushing attack with Parker, Mendenhall, Moore, Russell, and Davis, this team can go double tight smashmouth just as easily as it can go empty backfield 5 wide. The variety of weapons at Ben's disposal now means that we can play to the opponents weaknesses every week, since we theoretically should be able to line up in seemingly endless different combinations of personnel now.


Exactly...our current talent doesn't limit us. We have 4 good RBs, 3 good WRs, a franchise qb, backs that can run, and catch. TEs that can catch and block. While I appreciate what Pappy said. It's football...these guys should be able to switch in and out of different sets with ease...the talent is there. We have...speed...we have power...we have quickness....we have height. The Steelers are being built to do it all. The Steelers are being built to be versatile, modern, and innovative. I truely believe Tomlin will make his mark on the NFL through a new breed of versatility.