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View Full Version : How can you be statistically..



06-20-2008, 05:30 PM
..in the top 5 all-time at your position, have 4 super bowl rings, 5 pro bowl appearances, and not be in the Hall of Fame? Or better yet...not even be mentioned or considered for election into the hall of fame??

The biggest omission for a Hall of Fame in all of sports.

I just don't get this. And I don't understand why there isn't an out-cry amongst his teammates, team ownership, the media, and the fans of his team.

:HeadBanger

stlrz d
06-20-2008, 08:14 PM
Maybe they don't know his name?

NKySteeler
06-20-2008, 08:33 PM
Yes, Shell should be in, but I truly believe that there is a certain "bias" against the Steelers at this point.... Hell, they don't want the whole squad in there, do they? ... Let's not forget that Dawson ain't there yet either... And he was one of the best at the position.

SteelerNation1
06-20-2008, 08:37 PM
IMO Donnie Shell and LC Greenwood should both be in the hall. I never understood the too many Steelers thing. That is crap. If they were the best at their position at the time they played, won multiple championships, you should probably be in.

NKySteeler
06-20-2008, 08:56 PM
I never understood the too many Steelers thing. That is crap. If they were the best at their position at the time they played, won multiple championships, you should probably be in.

I agree, but you're preaching to the choir..... :|

Mr Smartmonies
06-20-2008, 09:06 PM
You have to understand that the Hall of Fame voting is made up of Voters like Peter King. Last Year Peter King had Jon Kitna as the 9th best QB and BigBen as #17.
How this guy has a hall of fame vote is beyond my comprehension.

NKySteeler
06-20-2008, 09:08 PM
You have to understand that the Hall of Fame voting is made up of Voters like Peter King. Last Year Peter King had Jon Kitna as the 9th best QB and BigBen as #17.
How this guy has a hall of fame vote is beyond my comprehension.

...What denotes a voting position? ....Who gets them, and why?

Mr Smartmonies
06-20-2008, 09:33 PM
You have to understand that the Hall of Fame voting is made up of Voters like Peter King. Last Year Peter King had Jon Kitna as the 9th best QB and BigBen as #17.
How this guy has a hall of fame vote is beyond my comprehension.

...What denotes a voting position? ....Who gets them, and why?

I don't know exactly. I know you have to be a media member. Beat writers mostly get to vote. I think their are like 45 voters or something like that.

They would be better off Using sports handicappers.

RuthlessBurgher
06-20-2008, 10:16 PM
[quote="Mr Smartmonies":2bdo00ca]You have to understand that the Hall of Fame voting is made up of Voters like Peter King. Last Year Peter King had Jon Kitna as the 9th best QB and BigBen as #17.
How this guy has a hall of fame vote is beyond my comprehension.

...What denotes a voting position? ....Who gets them, and why?

I don't know exactly. I know you have to be a media member. Beat writers mostly get to vote. I think their are like 45 voters or something like that.

They would be better off Using sports handicappers.[/quote:2bdo00ca]

I think they should give living Hall of Famers a say in who deserves to join them in Canton. Shouldn't guys who played against the candidates have a better opinion than guys eating doughnuts up in the pressbox? Normally, I don't think the NCAA does many things better than the NFL (I hate the BCS over a playoff system, hate the college OT, etc.), but letting past Heisman winners vote for the Heisman each year makes sense to me.

NKySteeler
06-20-2008, 10:21 PM
hate the college OT

You gotta be kidding me?!.... Why do you hate the college OT system?!.... Personally, I wish the NFL would institute something along these lines so both teams are guaranteed to touch the ball. ... Granted, I do not care for the positioning of the ball and removing the kickoff from the equation, but it is still pretty damn good compared to what is seen on Sundays I think...

Mr Smartmonies
06-20-2008, 10:29 PM
[quote="Mr Smartmonies":1pq7liwo]You have to understand that the Hall of Fame voting is made up of Voters like Peter King. Last Year Peter King had Jon Kitna as the 9th best QB and BigBen as #17.
How this guy has a hall of fame vote is beyond my comprehension.

...What denotes a voting position? ....Who gets them, and why?

I don't know exactly. I know you have to be a media member. Beat writers mostly get to vote. I think their are like 45 voters or something like that.

They would be better off Using sports handicappers.

I think they should give living Hall of Famers a say in who deserves to join them in Canton. Shouldn't guys who played against the candidates have a better opinion than guys eating doughnuts up in the pressbox? Normally, I don't think the NCAA does many things better than the NFL (I hate the BCS over a playoff system, hate the college OT, etc.), but letting past Heisman winners vote for the Heisman each year makes sense to me.[/quote:1pq7liwo]


Yes and know. But they don't do much better. Youcan see that each year when they vote for things like Team MVP. They cannot even do that right.

Honestly sports handicappers should have a say in the matter. I say that with all seriousness and its got nothing to do with me being one. The Beat writer just sticks a microphone under the players chin. That's all he does differently from Joe Fan. But when I wrote last nov to Bouchette about the Steelers struggles in the Running game , he had no idea what I was talking about until the Steelers started drafting and signing backs this offseason. Most writers will point to the most basic of stats like "passing yards." yet , a team with a lot of passing yards is often one who is playing from behind a lot and have to throw to catch up. A good sports capper can break things down to what is really going on, not just what is perceived. for example it was "perceived" that the 2004 steelers were winning because of their running game. but a sports capper will let you know that Bettis rushing yards were coming in the 4th QTR long after the Steelers had taken the lead. He would also compare and contrast the Steelers QB key passing stats in the 1st QTR, and then compare them to Maddox a year before. Hence the new efficient QB allowed the steelers to control the ball by completing third downs early in the game. he helped them pile on points early so that they didn't have to pass late. Vice Versa Maddox's inefficiency in the first halves, led to less ball control, more punts, tired defense, and more passing attempts by games end. I use this as just one example.
A beat writer would never break things down to the finer points. Hence you have people who should be in the hall and not be in the hall.

RuthlessBurgher
06-20-2008, 10:31 PM
hate the college OT

You gotta be kidding me?!.... Why do you hate the college OT system?!.... Personally, I wish the NFL would institute something along these lines so both teams are guaranteed to touch the ball. ... Granted, I do not care for the positioning of the ball and removing the kickoff from the equation, but it is still pretty damn good compared to what is seen on Sundays I think...

I agree that NFL OT would improve if both teams had an opportunity with the ball, but the college version seems to contrived and artificial like deciding a hockey game via shootout instead of continuing to play the game.

Maybe do something like if the first team scores on the first OT drive, kick off to the other team and give them one drive to tie or win. If they tie, then make it sudden death from that point on. If they fail to score on that drive, game over...team 1 wins. If the first team does not score on the first drive, then it is standard sudden death, since both teams will then have had a chance with the ball in their hands.

NKySteeler
06-20-2008, 10:37 PM
I agree that NFL OT would improve if both teams had an opportunity with the ball, but the college version seems to contrived and artificial like deciding a hockey game via shootout instead of continuing to play the game.

Maybe do something like if the first team scores on the first OT drive, kick off to the other team and give them one drive to tie or win. If they tie, then make it sudden death from that point on. If they fail to score on that drive, game over...team 1 wins. If the first team does not score on the first drive, then it is standard sudden death, since both teams will then have had a chance with the ball in their hands.

We gotta get you the tapes of the 4OT Arkansas game and the 5OT (I think) Kentucky game... :P

RuthlessBurgher
06-20-2008, 10:42 PM
I agree that NFL OT would improve if both teams had an opportunity with the ball, but the college version seems to contrived and artificial like deciding a hockey game via shootout instead of continuing to play the game.

Maybe do something like if the first team scores on the first OT drive, kick off to the other team and give them one drive to tie or win. If they tie, then make it sudden death from that point on. If they fail to score on that drive, game over...team 1 wins. If the first team does not score on the first drive, then it is standard sudden death, since both teams will then have had a chance with the ball in their hands.

We gotta get you the tapes of the 4OT Arkansas game and the 5OT (I think) Kentucky game... :P

I won't argue that it cannot be exciting to go back and forth like that, but the whole thing where they start forcing a team to go for two, for instance, does not feel like true football to me.

NKySteeler
06-20-2008, 10:54 PM
I won't argue that it cannot be exciting to go back and forth like that, but the whole thing where they start forcing a team to go for two, for instance, does not feel like true football to me.

Agreed that the 2-point force play is inadequate. But you're talkin' to a guy who may watch college ball on-off from noon till 2am (thanx to Gameplan and games in Hawaii/west coast)..... :lol:

Ozey74
06-20-2008, 11:02 PM
Yes, Shell should be in, but I truly believe that there is a certain "bias" against the Steelers at this point.... Hell, they don't want the whole squad in there, do they? ... Let's not forget that Dawson ain't there yet either... And he was one of the best at the position.


:Agree

Who was that Patriot LB from the 80's that was inducted last year? What a terrible submission that was. The fact that he got in before Shell and Greenwood??

:wft

papillon
06-20-2008, 11:06 PM
Yes, Shell should be in, but I truly believe that there is a certain "bias" against the Steelers at this point.... Hell, they don't want the whole squad in there, do they? ... Let's not forget that Dawson ain't there yet either... And he was one of the best at the position.


:Agree

Who was that Patriot LB from the 80's that was inducted last year? What a terrible submission that was. The fact that he got in before Shell and Greenwood??

:wft

Was it Andre Tippett?

Pappy

Ozey74
06-20-2008, 11:07 PM
Yes, Shell should be in, but I truly believe that there is a certain "bias" against the Steelers at this point.... Hell, they don't want the whole squad in there, do they? ... Let's not forget that Dawson ain't there yet either... And he was one of the best at the position.


:Agree

Who was that Patriot LB from the 80's that was inducted last year? What a terrible submission that was. The fact that he got in before Shell and Greenwood??

:wft

Was it Andre Tippett?

Pappy

Yes, it was. Thank you!

RuthlessBurgher
06-20-2008, 11:08 PM
Yes, Shell should be in, but I truly believe that there is a certain "bias" against the Steelers at this point.... Hell, they don't want the whole squad in there, do they? ... Let's not forget that Dawson ain't there yet either... And he was one of the best at the position.


:Agree

Who was that Patriot LB from the 80's that was inducted last year? What a terrible submission that was. The fact that he got in before Shell and Greenwood??

:wft

Andre Tippett was a player back in the day. It is hard to compare the credentials of a LB to a d-lineman and to a safety, though. In terms of LB's, I'm surprised that Derrick Thomas hasn't gotten more posthumous love from the HOF voters.

papillon
06-20-2008, 11:09 PM
Posted this over at the Trib. Sorry for those of you that post in both places and this is a repeat.

When he retired Shell had 51 interceptions and 19 fumble recoveries which tallies 70 d@mn turnovers. The interceptions were the most by any safety in history when he retired (I think), plus 4 Superbowl wins and 5 pro-bowls or however many he had. It should never have gotten this far, but, it has, and, unfortunately, it will probably be the senior committee that gets him in. I hope he's alive to enjoy the moment.

Wait let me add this to the resume, he played in 201 games and was responsible for 70 turnovers that's .35 per game played. That's amazing in itself. Can you say "ballhawk"?

How about this? His first 3 years in the league he started only 2 games and had 3 INTs and 3 fumble recoveries total in those 3 years. This means that he accounted for 48 INTs and 16 fumble recoveries in 159 games that's .4 TOs per game from 1977 - 1987.

There's just too many Steelers in the HOF and Bettis and Woodson are almost certain locks. Shell will need the senior committee to get him in and hopefully, they aren't as stringent as the baseball senior committee.

Pappy

papillon
06-20-2008, 11:14 PM
Yes, Shell should be in, but I truly believe that there is a certain "bias" against the Steelers at this point.... Hell, they don't want the whole squad in there, do they? ... Let's not forget that Dawson ain't there yet either... And he was one of the best at the position.


:Agree

Who was that Patriot LB from the 80's that was inducted last year? What a terrible submission that was. The fact that he got in before Shell and Greenwood??

:wft

Andre Tippett was a player back in the day. It is hard to compare the credentials of a LB to a d-lineman and to a safety, though. In terms of LB's, I'm surprised that Derrick Thomas hasn't gotten more posthumous love from the HOF voters.

But, Tippett isn't as high up the food chain with LBs as Shell is with safeties. Lambert, Ham, Taylor, Butkus, Nitschke, Lanier, Singletary not much doubt that he isn't in the caliber of thoseplayers and that's the point.

Shell was probably one of the top 5 safeties of all time, hitter, ballhawk, 4 time SB champ, 5 time all-pro and 70 turnovers in 201 games.

Pappy

RuthlessBurgher
06-20-2008, 11:40 PM
Yes, Shell should be in, but I truly believe that there is a certain "bias" against the Steelers at this point.... Hell, they don't want the whole squad in there, do they? ... Let's not forget that Dawson ain't there yet either... And he was one of the best at the position.


:Agree

Who was that Patriot LB from the 80's that was inducted last year? What a terrible submission that was. The fact that he got in before Shell and Greenwood??

:wft

Andre Tippett was a player back in the day. It is hard to compare the credentials of a LB to a d-lineman and to a safety, though. In terms of LB's, I'm surprised that Derrick Thomas hasn't gotten more posthumous love from the HOF voters.

But, Tippett isn't as high up the food chain with LBs as Shell is with safeties. Lambert, Ham, Taylor, Butkus, Nitschke, Lanier, Singletary not much doubt that he isn't in the caliber of thoseplayers and that's the point.

Shell was probably one of the top 5 safeties of all time, hitter, ballhawk, 4 time SB champ, 5 time all-pro and 70 turnovers in 201 games.

Pappy

In addition to the "too many Steelers" sentiment working against them, Donnie Shell and Dirt Dawson have to deal with the fact that safeties and centers are undervalued as compared to some of the more flashy positions. I heard a quote from a voter in print once concerning why Dawson was not getting in. He said something like "The best center is already in the Hall and his name is Stephenson." (My @$$...Dermontti took all of the strengths that Dwight Stephenson had and all of the strengths that Mike Webster had, and combined them into one body). After Jerry Rice gets inducted into the Hall of Fame in a few years, should we stop inducting any more WR's because "The best wide receiver is already in the Hall and his name is Rice?" Dumb, dumb, dumb.

BigLebowski
06-21-2008, 11:56 PM
First off Donnie Shell should be in the hall. LC was great but not as great as those in the hall, IMHO. But I would love to see him in. Dawson, Bettis should get in the hall, but it may take longer than us fans would like. Rod is a guarantee first ballot hall of famer, and I am so proud to have watched him for so many years.

MSM,
I have to disagree cause I don't believe a handicapper should be a voter. And it is no crack at you, but your analysis is done by statistics in a database, not with your eyes on the game itself.

NKy,
I agree with you that college football OT is much more fair and more exciting.

Tippett--eh, the case can be made for both sides, am I upset that he is in and Shell is not, of course. But that should take away from Tippett's career.

Mr Smartmonies
06-22-2008, 01:11 AM
MSM,
I have to disagree cause I don't believe a handicapper should be a voter. And it is no crack at you, but your analysis is done by statistics in a database, not with your eyes on the game itself.

.

I have never missed 1 steeler game since I was 4 years old. Not 1. If you think I know nothing about what I am seeing, you are mightily wrong. But you go ahead and keep telling yourself whatever it is you want to believe.

And furthermore, when these beat writers go into their little room to discuss a player, its almost all done from a stats point of view. Bouchette will go in and say , he had 75 TD', 10,000 rushing yards etc etc. Therefore a sports capper with better understanding of the stats would be a better fit to vote.

Chavezz
06-22-2008, 12:25 PM
Here's a little different perspective? The Pat's are a dynasty by all accounts, cheating or not, but with a team that good, there should be quite a few HOFer's right? Well lets look at who fits the bill.

Bellicheck? Before Spygate there was no question that he would end up in the HOF but the longer this is goes on without complete closure, he may be kept out just to make a point to others who might try underhanded activities to get an edge. Eventually he gets in IMO.

Brady, Yep. Not a lot to say, he keeps putting up these numbers there might be another conversation that needs to be had, not just HOF talk, GOAT talks. Scary I know. The spygate stuff doesn't affect Brady near as much as Bellicheck.


And then?

Moss will most likely get in but he's only been a Pat for one year, he's not part of the "Dynasty". It's not like he's won a championship with the Pats yet so would he go in as a Pat?

Bruschi? To be honest I don't know where his stats stack up against other LB'ers but he's never struck me as a HOF player. He's solid and consistent but I don't know about HOF worthy.

Seau? Was on the downside of his career when he signed with the Pats and wsa just a role player. Might be a HOF'er but can't see it as a Pat.

Roidney Harrison? Borderline/Doubtful IMO.

Richard Seymore was on track early on in his career but I hear a lot of Pat's fans say that he's dropped his level of play year after year. Don't know specifics but that's what I hear.


Who else? Oline is no namers who are better together than they are seperate. The team is exactly that. A Team. They do it with a bunch of good players who play their role without many superstar players.

Just thought it was interesting after I thought about it for a little.

BigLebowski
06-22-2008, 06:47 PM
...

And furthermore, when these beat writers go into their little room to discuss a player, its almost all done from a stats point of view. Bouchette will go in and say , he had 75 TD', 10,000 rushing yards etc etc. Therefore a sports capper with better understanding of the stats would be a better fit to vote.


So you've been in these meetings? :roll:

Flasteel
06-22-2008, 07:04 PM
[quote="Mr Smartmonies":275zwvzw]You have to understand that the Hall of Fame voting is made up of Voters like Peter King. Last Year Peter King had Jon Kitna as the 9th best QB and BigBen as #17.
How this guy has a hall of fame vote is beyond my comprehension.

...What denotes a voting position? ....Who gets them, and why?

I don't know exactly. I know you have to be a media member. Beat writers mostly get to vote. I think their are like 45 voters or something like that.

They would be better off Using sports handicappers.[/quote:275zwvzw]

:shock:


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


:Boobs

BURGH86STEEL
06-22-2008, 09:17 PM
Here's a little different perspective? The Pat's are a dynasty by all accounts, cheating or not, but with a team that good, there should be quite a few HOFer's right? Well lets look at who fits the bill.

Bellicheck? Before Spygate there was no question that he would end up in the HOF but the longer this is goes on without complete closure, he may be kept out just to make a point to others who might try underhanded activities to get an edge. Eventually he gets in IMO.

Brady, Yep. Not a lot to say, he keeps putting up these numbers there might be another conversation that needs to be had, not just HOF talk, GOAT talks. Scary I know. The spygate stuff doesn't affect Brady near as much as Bellicheck.


And then?

Moss will most likely get in but he's only been a Pat for one year, he's not part of the "Dynasty". It's not like he's won a championship with the Pats yet so would he go in as a Pat?

Bruschi? To be honest I don't know where his stats stack up against other LB'ers but he's never struck me as a HOF player. He's solid and consistent but I don't know about HOF worthy.

Seau? Was on the downside of his career when he signed with the Pats and wsa just a role player. Might be a HOF'er but can't see it as a Pat.

Roidney Harrison? Borderline/Doubtful IMO.

Richard Seymore was on track early on in his career but I hear a lot of Pat's fans say that he's dropped his level of play year after year. Don't know specifics but that's what I hear.


Who else? Oline is no namers who are better together than they are seperate. The team is exactly that. A Team. They do it with a bunch of good players who play their role without many superstar players.

Just thought it was interesting after I thought about it for a little.

Ty Law will probably get in.

Chavezz
06-22-2008, 09:20 PM
When was his last season with the Pats?