PDA

View Full Version : Have to laugh at the Kobe/Michael comparisons



AngryAsian
06-17-2008, 11:31 PM
Michael would of never let his team get blown out in a finals game. He carried his team.... Kobe looks like he'll be ready to point some fingers after this game is over. What a game. My hats off to the Celts. Congrats... this one is done.

NKySteeler
06-17-2008, 11:38 PM
this one is done.

Thank God!..... I'm tired of NBA ruling the highlights and discussions on various channels... Sorry, I'm just not into pro basketball.

stlrz d
06-17-2008, 11:51 PM
Michael would of never let his team get blown out in a finals game. He carried his team.... Kobe looks like he'll be ready to point some fingers after this game is over. What a game. My hats off to the Celts. Congrats... this one is done.

It took a three headed monster of Garnett, Pierce and Allen to do this. Gasol sure helped Kobe in the regular season, but he was no match for Garnett.

sd steel
06-18-2008, 01:51 AM
Im not an NBA fan, but I have always beeen a Celts fan since Bird. Its all jungle ball now. But as far a Kobe vs Jordan, Jordan made his team better and brought up their level of play, whereas Kobe is a ball hog. Yes he is a spectacular athlete, and he is great when he has the ball, but he can't win by himself and he doesn't make the guys around him better. Kobe isn't in Jordan's class imo.

stlrz d
06-18-2008, 07:29 AM
Im not an NBA fan, but I have always beeen a Celts fan since Bird. Its all jungle ball now. But as far a Kobe vs Jordan, Jordan made his team better and brought up their level of play, whereas Kobe is a ball hog. Yes he is a spectacular athlete, and he is great when he has the ball, but he can't win by himself and he doesn't make the guys around him better. Kobe isn't in Jordan's class imo.

Nobody wins by themselves. Jordan always had a superb rebounder (HoGrant, Rodman), a big man who could hit a mid-range shot (Cartwright, Wennington) and deadly accurate 3 point shooters who could hit a shot when the D had collapsed on Jordan (Hodges, Paxson). Oh, and a pretty good player in Pippen who wasn't exactly a slacker while Jordan was gone. I'm not saying that Jordan didn't make those guys better and I'm not saying that he did either. That's right up there with the chicken and the egg argument, imo. For example, did Jordan make Hodges better because he got him open looks? I'd say no. Hodges was good enough to hit the shots whenever he got those looks. Kobe got his guys plenty of open looks and they couldn't hit the shots. How is that his fault? You see what I mean? The "Jordan made his guys better" argument is a circular one at best.

This is where you'll say that Kobe never won until he got Shaq. Let me help you (and others who believe that) out on that one. Kobe and Shaq both joined the Lakers at the same time but it took them until 2000 to win a championship. Then they won 3 together. Shaq had never won it without Kobe just as Kobe had never won it without Shaq. Shaq then went to Miami and won it with D Wade, who had neve won it without Shaq. See what I'm sayin'?

As for Kobe being a "ball hog" I would say you disqualified yourself by saying you're not an NBA fan...becasue you obviously haven't been watching.

ghettoscott
06-18-2008, 08:39 AM
I agree AS, dont really like the Kobe/Michael comparison's...IMO Kobe is the closest thing that we currently have in the Association to Michael but that is where it ends. What is even funnier is the Lebron/Michael comparisons.

LasVegasGuy
06-18-2008, 01:12 PM
I agree AS, dont really like the Kobe/Michael comparison's...IMO Kobe is the closest thing that we currently have in the Association to Michael but that is where it ends. What is even funnier is the Lebron/Michael comparisons.


Easy on Lebron the guy has game he just doesn't have a supporting cast. I agree with you guys their will only be one MJ so these comparisons are ridiculous.

Shawn
06-18-2008, 04:41 PM
Lebron is the sickness. Give the guy some players. Also, the guy has more class in his pinkie than Bryant does in his entire body.

AngryAsian
06-18-2008, 08:09 PM
Lebron is the sickness. Give the guy some players. Also, the guy has more class in his pinkie than Bryant does in his entire body.


In 2007 LeBron single handedly placed his entire team on his shoulders and took them to the finals. Talk about no supporting casts. I think that Cleveland was dumb acquiring Ben Wallace from the Bulls. Ben's good years are behind him and all he has is his afro. They need to build a supporting cast around LeBron before he jumps ship.

eniparadoxgma
06-23-2008, 09:22 PM
Still don't understand the hate for Kobe, AS...

Anyhow, I agree with Stlrz D...and I also agree with GhettoScott and LVG.

There's only one MJ. There's only one Kobe. There's only one Lebron. I think it's silly to compare them.

As far as all out talent, ambition, and the ability to take over a game any number of ways, Kobe is the closest there is right now, bar none.

papillon
06-23-2008, 11:59 PM
[quote="sd steel":o78yrfee]Im not an NBA fan, but I have always beeen a Celts fan since Bird. Its all jungle ball now. But as far a Kobe vs Jordan, Jordan made his team better and brought up their level of play, whereas Kobe is a ball hog. Yes he is a spectacular athlete, and he is great when he has the ball, but he can't win by himself and he doesn't make the guys around him better. Kobe isn't in Jordan's class imo.

Nobody wins by themselves. Jordan always had a superb rebounder (HoGrant, Rodman), a big man who could hit a mid-range shot (Cartwright, Wennington) and deadly accurate 3 point shooters who could hit a shot when the D had collapsed on Jordan (Hodges, Paxson). Oh, and a pretty good player in Pippen who wasn't exactly a slacker while Jordan was gone. I'm not saying that Jordan didn't make those guys better and I'm not saying that he did either. That's right up there with the chicken and the egg argument, imo. For example, did Jordan make Hodges better because he got him open looks? I'd say no. Hodges was good enough to hit the shots whenever he got those looks. Kobe got his guys plenty of open looks and they couldn't hit the shots. How is that his fault? You see what I mean? The "Jordan made his guys better" argument is a circular one at best.

This is where you'll say that Kobe never won until he got Shaq. Let me help you (and others who believe that) out on that one. Kobe and Shaq both joined the Lakers at the same time but it took them until 2000 to win a championship. Then they won 3 together. Shaq had never won it without Kobe just as Kobe had never won it without Shaq. Shaq then went to Miami and won it with D Wade, who had neve won it without Shaq. See what I'm sayin'?

As for Kobe being a "ball hog" I would say you disqualified yourself by saying you're not an NBA fan...becasue you obviously haven't been watching.[/quote:o78yrfee]

All of those players played for other teams at one point or another and didn't have the success that they enjoyed in Chicago. Yea, Hodges, Kerr and Paxson were pure shooters, but, they got shots with the Bulls becuase defenses had to defend MIchael with 2 players.

Wennington and Cartwright were able to get free for mid-range jumpers because MIchael was attacking the rim and defenses had to collapse on him or give him a dunk.

I'll give ya the rebounders, Jordan had little to do with their veracity on glass and don't forget Dennis Rodman who was probably the best rebounder in the NBA during those championship years for the Bulls.

Just my 2 cents...There is only one player in NBA history that I would take before Michael Jordan if I were starting a team and that's Magic Johnson. A 6'9" point guard for crying out loud.

Pappy

BIG FAN
06-24-2008, 01:58 AM
[quote="sd steel":5ob9w14i]Im not an NBA fan, but I have always beeen a Celts fan since Bird. Its all jungle ball now. But as far a Kobe vs Jordan, Jordan made his team better and brought up their level of play, whereas Kobe is a ball hog. Yes he is a spectacular athlete, and he is great when he has the ball, but he can't win by himself and he doesn't make the guys around him better. Kobe isn't in Jordan's class imo.

Nobody wins by themselves. Jordan always had a superb rebounder (HoGrant, Rodman), a big man who could hit a mid-range shot (Cartwright, Wennington) and deadly accurate 3 point shooters who could hit a shot when the D had collapsed on Jordan (Hodges, Paxson). Oh, and a pretty good player in Pippen who wasn't exactly a slacker while Jordan was gone. I'm not saying that Jordan didn't make those guys better and I'm not saying that he did either. That's right up there with the chicken and the egg argument, imo. For example, did Jordan make Hodges better because he got him open looks? I'd say no. Hodges was good enough to hit the shots whenever he got those looks. Kobe got his guys plenty of open looks and they couldn't hit the shots. How is that his fault? You see what I mean? The "Jordan made his guys better" argument is a circular one at best.

This is where you'll say that Kobe never won until he got Shaq. Let me help you (and others who believe that) out on that one. Kobe and Shaq both joined the Lakers at the same time but it took them until 2000 to win a championship. Then they won 3 together. Shaq had never won it without Kobe just as Kobe had never won it without Shaq. Shaq then went to Miami and won it with D Wade, who had neve won it without Shaq. See what I'm sayin'?

As for Kobe being a "ball hog" I would say you disqualified yourself by saying you're not an NBA fan...becasue you obviously haven't been watching.

All of those players played for other teams at one point or another and didn't have the success that they enjoyed in Chicago. Yea, Hodges, Kerr and Paxson were pure shooters, but, they got shots with the Bulls becuase defenses had to defend MIchael with 2 players.

Wennington and Cartwright were able to get free for mid-range jumpers because MIchael was attacking the rim and defenses had to collapse on him or give him a dunk.

I'll give ya the rebounders, Jordan had little to do with their veracity on glass and don't forget Dennis Rodman who was probably the best rebounder in the NBA during those championship years for the Bulls.

Just my 2 cents...There is only one player in NBA history that I would take before Michael Jordan if I were starting a team and that's Magic Johnson. A 6'9" point guard for crying out loud.

Pappy[/quote:5ob9w14i]

Your two cents is worth a million.

stlrz d
06-24-2008, 06:43 AM
Pap - That's why I say it's a circular argument. Those guys were good enough to do what they do but didn't have the opportunities. Kobe or LeBron or AI (if he'd give up the ball) would have allowed those guys to get open shots as well. That's my whole point...when the D collapsed on Kobe his supporting cast didn't come through even when he got them the ball. Jordan's supporting cast did.

AngryAsian
06-24-2008, 08:26 AM
Some Clarification: No I'm not a hater of Kobe Bryant's game.... he's the most talented ball player in the NBA without question. My statement previously and now has been that the Kobe and MJ comparisons are ridiculous. MJ was far and away the better ball player in his prime and Kobe, thought extremely talented isn't in the same league. Just MHO. As for Kobe not having the supporting cast? I can't understand these statements. Kobe has equal if not better cast members than Michael did his first trip to the Finals with "his" team. So let's see some numbers:

Criteria.... 1) number one in there respective conferences when the playoffs began, 2) reaching the NBA Finals for the first time with the "assembled" teams, 3) both of them being "the man" on their teams and 4) both of them were league MVPs.

'90-91 Chicago Bulls '07-08 LA Lakers

Coaching:

Both with Phil Jackson


Regular Season record and numbers:

Bulls- 61-21 #1 rated offense #7 rated defense at the end of the regular season
Lakers- 57-25 #3 rated offense #5 rated defense at the end of the regular season


Post Season record leading up to the Finals:

Bulls- 11-1 beating the Knicks, Sixers and Pistons
Lakers- 12-3 beating the Nuggets, Jazz and Spurs


Supporting Cast Members (pts/asst/rbds-- per game):

Small Forward:
Pippen- 17.8/6.2/7.3
Radmonovich- 8.4/1.9/3.3

Power Forward:
Grant- 12.8/2.3/8.4
Odom- 14.2/3.5/10.6

Centers:
Cartwright/Perdue/Williams- 5.4/0.3/4.2
Gasol/Bynum/Turiaf- 12.83/2.27/7.3

Point Guards:
Paxon/Armstrong/Hodges- 7.5/2.86/1.16
Fischer/Farmar/Vujacic- 9.87/2.2/2.1



*I highlighted the data that showed the advantage to either MJ/Kobe. I'm sure Kobe will get another chance but IMO, Kobe shrunk when his team needed him the most and both MJ and Kobe during their respective first runs in the Finals got double and triple teamed. The only difference that most keep making is that MJ had the supporting cast members to elevate the team for the wins required to attain a championship. Numbers don't lie people... Kobe far and away had the better supporting cast members. The Lakers had the deeper bench. This is just my take on it and my assessment on the bogus opinions of the Sportsguys on ESPN making the MJ and Kobe comparisons. MJ was and is still the top dog in his sport without peer.... and if he has no peer then comparisons can't be made.

A side note... Defense wins Championships? Kobe's team finished #5 in the league in team defense where as Michael's team finished #7... Here Kobe once again had the advantage and still couldn't pull out a win.

frankthetank1
06-24-2008, 05:44 PM
the comparisons mark jackson and van gundy were making were absolutely stupid. lebron is better than kobe. at least lebron gets assists and rebounds. kobe shot so badly in the finals, ive never seen an elite player play that badly when it mattered most. he had one good game as far as shooting goes and i wont even go into his soft defense

stlrz d
06-24-2008, 06:36 PM
Some Clarification: No I'm not a hater of Kobe Bryant's game.... he's the most talented ball player in the NBA without question. My statement previously and now has been that the Kobe and MJ comparisons are ridiculous. MJ was far and away the better ball player in his prime and Kobe, thought extremely talented isn't in the same league. Just MHO. As for Kobe not having the supporting cast? I can't understand these statements. Kobe has equal if not better cast members than Michael did his first trip to the Finals with "his" team. So let's see some numbers:

Criteria.... 1) number one in there respective conferences when the playoffs began, 2) reaching the NBA Finals for the first time with the "assembled" teams, 3) both of them being "the man" on their teams and 4) both of them were league MVPs.

'90-91 Chicago Bulls '07-08 LA Lakers

Coaching:

Both with Phil Jackson


Regular Season record and numbers:

Bulls- 61-21 #1 rated offense #7 rated defense at the end of the regular season
Lakers- 57-25 #3 rated offense #5 rated defense at the end of the regular season


Post Season record leading up to the Finals:

Bulls- 11-1 beating the Knicks, Sixers and Pistons
Lakers- 12-3 beating the Nuggets, Jazz and Spurs


Supporting Cast Members (pts/asst/rbds-- per game):

Small Forward:
Pippen- 17.8/6.2/7.3
Radmonovich- 8.4/1.9/3.3

Power Forward:
Grant- 12.8/2.3/8.4
Odom- 14.2/3.5/10.6

Centers:
Cartwright/Perdue/Williams- 5.4/0.3/4.2
Gasol/Bynum/Turiaf- 12.83/2.27/7.3

Point Guards:
Paxon/Armstrong/Hodges- 7.5/2.86/1.16
Fischer/Farmar/Vujacic- 9.87/2.2/2.1



*I highlighted the data that showed the advantage to either MJ/Kobe. I'm sure Kobe will get another chance but IMO, Kobe shrunk when his team needed him the most and both MJ and Kobe during their respective first runs in the Finals got double and triple teamed. The only difference that most keep making is that MJ had the supporting cast members to elevate the team for the wins required to attain a championship. Numbers don't lie people... Kobe far and away had the better supporting cast members. The Lakers had the deeper bench. This is just my take on it and my assessment on the bogus opinions of the Sportsguys on ESPN making the MJ and Kobe comparisons. MJ was and is still the top dog in his sport without peer.... and if he has no peer then comparisons can't be made.

A side note... Defense wins Championships? Kobe's team finished #5 in the league in team defense where as Michael's team finished #7... Here Kobe once again had the advantage and still couldn't pull out a win.

I don't believe you can compare averages from different eras and draw the conclusion you are attempting to make.


the comparisons mark jackson and van gundy were making were absolutely stupid. lebron is better than kobe. at least lebron gets assists and rebounds. kobe shot so badly in the finals, ive never seen an elite player play that badly when it mattered most. he had one good game as far as shooting goes and i wont even go into his soft defense

Were you even watching? Just for starters, you're aware that Kobe had 30 assists for the finals, right? I don't remember the numbers, but I'm almost certain that Pierce and Rondo were the only two who had more. As for rebounds...when the D collapses on you, you pass the ball and someone fires up a shot you're usually not in ideal rebounding position. Soft defense? Didn't look like Kobe was playing soft to me. Sure looked like some of his teammates were though.

frankthetank1
06-25-2008, 08:22 AM
Some Clarification: No I'm not a hater of Kobe Bryant's game.... he's the most talented ball player in the NBA without question. My statement previously and now has been that the Kobe and MJ comparisons are ridiculous. MJ was far and away the better ball player in his prime and Kobe, thought extremely talented isn't in the same league. Just MHO. As for Kobe not having the supporting cast? I can't understand these statements. Kobe has equal if not better cast members than Michael did his first trip to the Finals with "his" team. So let's see some numbers:

Criteria.... 1) number one in there respective conferences when the playoffs began, 2) reaching the NBA Finals for the first time with the "assembled" teams, 3) both of them being "the man" on their teams and 4) both of them were league MVPs.

'90-91 Chicago Bulls '07-08 LA Lakers

Coaching:

Both with Phil Jackson


Regular Season record and numbers:

Bulls- 61-21 #1 rated offense #7 rated defense at the end of the regular season
Lakers- 57-25 #3 rated offense #5 rated defense at the end of the regular season


Post Season record leading up to the Finals:

Bulls- 11-1 beating the Knicks, Sixers and Pistons
Lakers- 12-3 beating the Nuggets, Jazz and Spurs


Supporting Cast Members (pts/asst/rbds-- per game):

Small Forward:
Pippen- 17.8/6.2/7.3
Radmonovich- 8.4/1.9/3.3

Power Forward:
Grant- 12.8/2.3/8.4
Odom- 14.2/3.5/10.6

Centers:
Cartwright/Perdue/Williams- 5.4/0.3/4.2
Gasol/Bynum/Turiaf- 12.83/2.27/7.3

Point Guards:
Paxon/Armstrong/Hodges- 7.5/2.86/1.16
Fischer/Farmar/Vujacic- 9.87/2.2/2.1



*I highlighted the data that showed the advantage to either MJ/Kobe. I'm sure Kobe will get another chance but IMO, Kobe shrunk when his team needed him the most and both MJ and Kobe during their respective first runs in the Finals got double and triple teamed. The only difference that most keep making is that MJ had the supporting cast members to elevate the team for the wins required to attain a championship. Numbers don't lie people... Kobe far and away had the better supporting cast members. The Lakers had the deeper bench. This is just my take on it and my assessment on the bogus opinions of the Sportsguys on ESPN making the MJ and Kobe comparisons. MJ was and is still the top dog in his sport without peer.... and if he has no peer then comparisons can't be made.

A side note... Defense wins Championships? Kobe's team finished #5 in the league in team defense where as Michael's team finished #7... Here Kobe once again had the advantage and still couldn't pull out a win.

I don't believe you can compare averages from different eras and draw the conclusion you are attempting to make.


the comparisons mark jackson and van gundy were making were absolutely stupid. lebron is better than kobe. at least lebron gets assists and rebounds. kobe shot so badly in the finals, ive never seen an elite player play that badly when it mattered most. he had one good game as far as shooting goes and i wont even go into his soft defense

Were you even watching? Just for starters, you're aware that Kobe had 30 assists for the finals, right? I don't remember the numbers, but I'm almost certain that Pierce and Rondo were the only two who had more. As for rebounds...when the D collapses on you, you pass the ball and someone fires up a shot you're usually not in ideal rebounding position. Soft defense? Didn't look like Kobe was playing soft to me. Sure looked like some of his teammates were though.

regarding kobe and lebron's assist numbers i wasnt talking just about the finals. lebron averages more assists in his career than kobe does. 5 assists a game is very good for kobe lebron averaged more against the celts though. well ray allen didnt do much in the playoffs untill they played the lakers. how many 3's did ray allen shoot over kobe? i remember quite a few. most of the time lebron drives or has the ball down low the d is usually collapsing on him too, he gets his rebounds though.

birtikidis
06-25-2008, 10:55 AM
i personally think kobe is hte best player in the NBA right now.
i know it's not his fault but i'll never like Lebron James. and the reason it's not his fault is because SI put him on the cover with a caption that read "the best ever?"
i'll never like him because of that. i'll admit that he's a great player, but Kobe is better.

frankthetank1
06-25-2008, 10:58 AM
i personally think kobe is hte best player in the NBA right now.
i know it's not his fault but i'll never like Lebron James. and the reason it's not his fault is because SI put him on the cover with a caption that read "the best ever?"
i'll never like him because of that. i'll admit that he's a great player, but Kobe is better.

how can you think kobe is better than lebron? kobe is considerably older than lebron and if you compare kobe's first few years to lebron's its not even close. i dont like lebron either but you dislike him because of an si cover? im sure they have said something similar about kobe in the past

birtikidis
06-25-2008, 11:13 AM
yea i know it's petty.
it just really really annoys me.
and yes i think kobe is better than lebron.

stlrz d
06-25-2008, 02:04 PM
1) Kobe wasn't guarding Ray Allen.

2) Kobe (after Shaq) didn't have anything to work with and had no choice but to shoot.

AngryAsian
06-26-2008, 05:29 AM
D, I know Kobe is your boy and he surely is a talent... and I completely agree that he's the best player in the NBA, but I surely can make a comparison regarding the supporting cast of both Kobe and MJ. Post Shaq, Kobe had nothing to work with. The whole reason Shaq left was Kobe wanted to be the number 1 option on his team.... and he got it. Now the franchise builds a team not only competitive enough but finishes number 1 in the Western Conference.... the most competitive and heavily stacked conference of the two. They roll through the playoffs 12-3 against their competition, but yet people are saying "Kobe didn't have a chance, because his supporting cast wasn't good enough." They were certainly good enough to be number 1 throughout most of the season and good enough to beat the Western conference heavies, but now that the Finals came, they're all of a sudden not good enough and it wasn't Kobe's fault.

Let me make myself extremely clear on this point. I'm not a Laker hater (cheered for them when I was in High School when everybody was a Larry Bird Celtic fan). I've also been hyper critical when it came to Kobe because all the pre-season "Trade me or build a team around me" whining that was done. The reason for the post is as simple as the title of this thread. Prior to the Finals I watched the ESPN hype machine produce one special segment after another about how there has been a void since MJ left and now with Kobe poised to take his MVP status and his team to the Finals, blah blah blah...

I have to laugh. MJ's average in the post season and especially in the Finals was only matched by the amazing performances he produced during situations when his team needed him the most. Was he a saint? No... its been well documented that during that most of his teammates hated him because of how he treated them and his very aggressive nature during his championship runs. I'm not touting MJ's off the court antics here, I'm just comparing Kobe's talent against MJ's during their first trip to the Finals with their respective teams. How could you say that they can't be compared.... all the similarities? Much respect and regards, bro.

AS

frankthetank1
06-26-2008, 11:01 AM
1) Kobe wasn't guarding Ray Allen.

2) Kobe (after Shaq) didn't have anything to work with and had no choice but to shoot.


a lot of the time kobe was guarding ray allen and when he wasnt he was guarding pierce and didnt do a damn thing. i know kobe had no one after shaq left but he has some players around him now and he still doesnt pass all that much. i really dont see much comparison between kobe and lebron. just going by the post season lebron didnt play great against the celts but he hurt them a lot more than kobe did. kobe may be a better shooter but thats about it. lebron is an all around player kobe isnt. keep in mind i hate lebron almost as much as kobe so there is absolutely no bias in my opinion. bird was better than both though

stlrz d
06-26-2008, 08:24 PM
For the record, I have never insinuated that Kobe = MJ. That's the media. What I find ridiculous is that people find the need to trash him when he clearly is the best player in the NBA. LeBron is getting there but he needs to do it for a few more seasons before I'm ready to give him that title. As for the supporting cast, the West is more offensive than defensive and the Lakers were built to win the West. The Celtics defense was too much, coupled with the fact that no one else on the Lakers could get it done. Fisher was ok. Odom had some moments, as did Gasol. Vujacic had one good game. The rest may as well have not even been there.

The Celtics had Garnett, Allen and Pierce to the Lakers' Bryant, Gasol and Fisher. Who do you give the edge there? I had high hopes that offense would triumph over defense but I was wrong.

papillon
06-27-2008, 11:22 AM
Pap - That's why I say it's a circular argument. Those guys were good enough to do what they do but didn't have the opportunities. Kobe or LeBron or AI (if he'd give up the ball) would have allowed those guys to get open shots as well. That's my whole point...when the D collapsed on Kobe his supporting cast didn't come through even when he got them the ball. Jordan's supporting cast did.

I don't agree, Kobe is he11 bent on being the man that everyone talks about as taking and making the clutch shot. He wants to be like Mike. He would never give up the ball and allow someone else to be the actual hero rather than himself. He'd rather force up a long jumper with a hand in his face than give it to an open player.

Maybe, he doesn't have confidence in them, maybe they aren't as good as Jordan's spot up shooters, but, one thing is for sure, he wants to be talked about like Mike. I just don't ever see it happening.

He won his titles with Shaq in his prime and when Shaq left, Shaq won another title with Dwayne Wade. Kpbe had a chance this year to step out from under Shaq's shadow and didn't get it done. Not only did he not get it done, but, his team looked like a team that should be in the lottery and not in the finals. I would have rather had the Spurs playing.

That all being said, Kobe is an entertaining and outstanding basketball player, but, he isn't the champion or leader that Jordan was is his day.

If Jordan hadn't gotten the hair-brained idea that he could actually hit major league pitching the Bulls probably would have won 8 consecutive titles.

Jordan was otherworldly with games on the line, either by scoring or dishing. Kobe is playing in the exact same offense as Jordan, so, the opportunities to include your teammates are there, he just doesn't take them when they present themselves.

Pappy

Iron Shiek
06-27-2008, 04:03 PM
First of all, I buy into the Bill Simmons theory that Jordan was given a "get suspended or retire for a year" ultimatum by Stern regarding his gambling and other stuff.

That aside, I am the biggest Kobe fan, but the Kobe - MJ comparison really do need to stop. I know Kobe got mobbed defensively and couldn't get loose, but there were times he was simply non-existent in the Finals. That didn't happen to MJ.

I'm also a huge Lebron fan as well. He needs to get more consistent in the playoffs before he comes close to either Kobe or MJ, but I can see it happening.

That said, Kobe very easily is the best in the NBA right now. People keep saying that he "now" has a supporting cast, and I sneer at that. Sure they won the "over-rated" west, but he hardly has a supporting cast. Odom can be good every 3rd game and Gasol got supremely exposed in the Finals. I like them and think they are effective, but they showed that they can't pick up the slack.

As for my overrated west comment, Spurs getting old and were hurt, Dallas and Phoenix never played defense and became "coachless" for a reason. Hornets and Jazz are up and coming but weren't ready for the big time. I think Lakers won the West by default. But next year, throw bynum in and some more development for some of these players, maybe a free agent, and the Lakers should be a force.

eniparadoxgma
06-27-2008, 05:38 PM
I don't agree, Kobe is he11 bent on being the man that everyone talks about as taking and making the clutch shot. He wants to be like Mike. He would never give up the ball and allow someone else to be the actual hero rather than himself. He'd rather force up a long jumper with a hand in his face than give it to an open player.

Pappy

No offense Pap, but that's simply not true. Since Kobe is the default go-to clutch player on the team, they routinely set up plays for other players (Odom, Sasha, etc) in those types of situations knowing that the defense will be focused on Kobe.

I have seen him give it up to an open player time and time and time and time again this year.

Quite frankly, your opinion on Kobe's willingness to defer to his teammates is antiquated at best.

Aside from that, Kobe has the "whatever the best way to win" mentality IMO. Since he's the best player in the friggin world right now as well as one of the best clutch shooters, it makes sense for him to be the one to take those shots. He wants to take those shots, much like Ben wants the rock in his hands when the game is on the line. This is the mentality those certain types of players have, that have the most desire to win.

I wouldn't want it any other way.

stlrz d
06-27-2008, 06:23 PM
How about listening to the man's own words spoken by him?


[youtube:39oka9wi]q4Epu-7ITO4[/youtube:39oka9wi]

Mr Smartmonies
06-27-2008, 08:21 PM
[quote="sd steel":2pottkbn]Im not an NBA fan, but I have always beeen a Celts fan since Bird. Its all jungle ball now. But as far a Kobe vs Jordan, Jordan made his team better and brought up their level of play, whereas Kobe is a ball hog. Yes he is a spectacular athlete, and he is great when he has the ball, but he can't win by himself and he doesn't make the guys around him better. Kobe isn't in Jordan's class imo.

Nobody wins by themselves. Jordan always had a superb rebounder (HoGrant, Rodman), a big man who could hit a mid-range shot (Cartwright, Wennington) and deadly accurate 3 point shooters who could hit a shot when the D had collapsed on Jordan (Hodges, Paxson). Oh, and a pretty good player in Pippen who wasn't exactly a slacker while Jordan was gone. I'm not saying that Jordan didn't make those guys better and I'm not saying that he did either. That's right up there with the chicken and the egg argument, imo. For example, did Jordan make Hodges better because he got him open looks? I'd say no. Hodges was good enough to hit the shots whenever he got those looks. Kobe got his guys plenty of open looks and they couldn't hit the shots. How is that his fault? You see what I mean? The "Jordan made his guys better" argument is a circular one at best.

This is where you'll say that Kobe never won until he got Shaq. Let me help you (and others who believe that) out on that one. Kobe and Shaq both joined the Lakers at the same time but it took them until 2000 to win a championship. Then they won 3 together. Shaq had never won it without Kobe just as Kobe had never won it without Shaq. Shaq then went to Miami and won it with D Wade, who had neve won it without Shaq. See what I'm sayin'?

As for Kobe being a "ball hog" I would say you disqualified yourself by saying you're not an NBA fan...becasue you obviously haven't been watching.[/quote:2pottkbn]

The Rules were changed a few years ago. You can't put your hands on a player. Jordan was putting 40 on the pistons and celtics in the 80;'s when he had no one and was getting killed. How can you be so wrong about everything?

stlrz d
06-27-2008, 08:41 PM
[quote="stlrz d":wc8xa7as][quote="sd steel":wc8xa7as]Im not an NBA fan, but I have always beeen a Celts fan since Bird. Its all jungle ball now. But as far a Kobe vs Jordan, Jordan made his team better and brought up their level of play, whereas Kobe is a ball hog. Yes he is a spectacular athlete, and he is great when he has the ball, but he can't win by himself and he doesn't make the guys around him better. Kobe isn't in Jordan's class imo.

Nobody wins by themselves. Jordan always had a superb rebounder (HoGrant, Rodman), a big man who could hit a mid-range shot (Cartwright, Wennington) and deadly accurate 3 point shooters who could hit a shot when the D had collapsed on Jordan (Hodges, Paxson). Oh, and a pretty good player in Pippen who wasn't exactly a slacker while Jordan was gone. I'm not saying that Jordan didn't make those guys better and I'm not saying that he did either. That's right up there with the chicken and the egg argument, imo. For example, did Jordan make Hodges better because he got him open looks? I'd say no. Hodges was good enough to hit the shots whenever he got those looks. Kobe got his guys plenty of open looks and they couldn't hit the shots. How is that his fault? You see what I mean? The "Jordan made his guys better" argument is a circular one at best.

This is where you'll say that Kobe never won until he got Shaq. Let me help you (and others who believe that) out on that one. Kobe and Shaq both joined the Lakers at the same time but it took them until 2000 to win a championship. Then they won 3 together. Shaq had never won it without Kobe just as Kobe had never won it without Shaq. Shaq then went to Miami and won it with D Wade, who had never won it without Shaq. See what I'm sayin'?

As for Kobe being a "ball hog" I would say you disqualified yourself by saying you're not an NBA fan...because you obviously haven't been watching.[/quote:wc8xa7as]

The Rules were changed a few years ago. You can't put your hands on a player. Jordan was putting 40 on the pistons and celtics in the 80;'s when he had no one and was getting killed. How can you be so wrong about everything?[/quote:wc8xa7as]

I'm not wrong. I was in college when the Jordan era began. I remember it quite well.

birtikidis
06-27-2008, 09:37 PM
that's what i love about kobe, he tried to deflect and was fairly humble about his comparison to MJ. Lebron was on the cover of SI with the caption "the best ever?" and was NEVER humble about it. not to that extent. now was he young and immature, probably, but he never said anything about it since...

NKySteeler
06-27-2008, 10:40 PM
Comparisons are complete bull****. Period.... First, you cannot compare apples and oranges. Second, who cares now that the season is over? Maybe Kobe will do a rap about it bashing Shack somehow....

...Sorry, but someone needs to be a prick here and state the obvious.....

I'm just good at it... :twisted: .....

birtikidis
06-27-2008, 11:52 PM
that rap that shaq did was funny as hell