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View Full Version : Hines Ward IS Clutch...



J_C_Steel
06-01-2008, 12:55 PM
This is something I posted over on StillerNation a while ago. I thought you guys might like to read it...

When you bring your best at the biggest moments, that's clutch. When you have one 100-yard receiving game all year, and that comes in a playoff game, that's clutch.

Here's an interesting statistical comparison.

Hines Ward in the playoffs:

11 games (team record 7-4)

67 catches, 896 yards, 13.4 yards per catch, 8 touchdowns
7 rushes, 31 yards, 4.4 yards per rush
Five 100-yard receiving games

Average game -- 6.1 catches, 81.5 yards, 13.4 yards per catch, .73 TDs

Plaxico Burress in the playoffs:

8 games (team record 4-4)

32 catches, 505 yards, 15.8 yards per catch, 5 touchdowns
One 100-yard receiving game

Average game -- 4 catches, 63.1 yards, 15.8 yards per catch, .63 TDs

Terrell Owens in the playoffs:

10 games (team record 4-6)

50 catches, 702 yards, 14.0 yards per catch, 4 touchdowns
Three 100-yard receiving games

Average game -- 5 catches, 70.2 yards, 14.0 yards per catch, .40 TDs

Randy Moss in the playoffs:

8 games (team record 4-4)

35 catches, 723 yards, 20.7 yards per catch, 9 touchdowns
Three 100-yard receiving games

Average game -- 4.4 catches, 90.4 yards, 20.7 yards per catch, 1.13 TDs

Marvin Harrison in the playoffs:

14 games (team record 7-7)

60 catches, 835 yards, 14.2 yards per catch, 2 touchdowns
One 100-yard receiving game

Average game -- 4.3 catches, 59.6 yards, 14.2 yards per catch, .14 TDs

Reggie Wayne in the playoffs:

11 games (team record 7-4)

55 catches, 758 yards, 13.8 yards per catch, 6 touchdowns
One 100-yard receiving game (it was a 200-yard game)

Average game -- 5 catches, 68.9 yards, 13.8 yards per catch, .55 TDs


What does this tell you? Well, it tells you that Hines Ward, despite not being nearly as talented as the other above-listed gentlemen, has OUT-PERFORMED every one of them, save Randy Moss, in the playoffs.

And Randy Moss is probably the most talented wide receiver ever.

Terrell Owens, Marvin Harrison, and Reggie Wayne may get to Canton, but they haven't performed NEARLY at Hines Ward's level in the playoffs. Plaxico Burress may put up better regular season statistics than Hines, but he hasn't made the post-season impact that Hines has.

Hines has more playoff 100-yard receiving games than Plaxico Burress, Marvin Harrison, and Reggie Wayne COMBINED (5 to 3) -- and he did that in 22 less games (33 total games to 11). Also, Hines scores touchdowns at almost double the rate of Terrell Owens in the playoffs.

He may have had his worst year in the last seven this past campaign, but Hines brought it when it mattered. Let's give him props for his 10-catch, 135-yard performance against the Jags, and for his prior playoff performances.

I, for one, am glad that Hines is on this team. Especially in January.

http://www.photojournalism.org/2006webimages/webwinners/singles/source/image/sports_action-2.jpg

Flasteel
06-01-2008, 02:35 PM
Remind me again. Who on that list has a Super Bowl MVP trophy in their case? :D

Hines Ward has already earned his ticket to Canton in my opinion and the best part is we're still going to get a few more years of watching him play. When we took him out of Georgia in '98, it made the draft for me even though he was a Bulldog. Despite that, I never would have envisioned that he would go on to have the career that he's had and make the impact he's made.

I really don't get the mentality of those who bash Ward or speak ill of him. He epitomizes toughness and as you did a fine job of detailing J C, he's as clutch as they come. While I don't know the man personally, it seems pretty obvious that he's at least as good of a man off the field as he is a warrior on it.

In every sense imaginable, Hines Ward is an asset to the Steeler legacy.

MeetJoeGreene
06-01-2008, 03:05 PM
Somehow I don't think this will turn into a 35 page thread and generate the arguments that it did on SN.

Nice solid research and analysis JC.

It would be hard for me to argue with those facts even if I were of a mind to. Which I am not.

AngryAsian
06-01-2008, 03:17 PM
Yet another Steeler to be proud of. This is quite a statement... My All Time Favorite Steeler Receiver Ever.

Chavezz
06-01-2008, 04:08 PM
Ward need to have another big year or two or atleast he needs to play big in the playoffs or Super Bowl to make it in to the HOF.

I love Ward the player but when you look at his regular season stats compared to the stats of the WR's that he will be compared to for HOF induction he doesn't really stand out ENOUGH to make it IMO.

I don't disagree that he's the best WR that the Pittsburgh Steelers have ever had but that doesn't mean that he's in the HOF.

Maybe if the HOF comittee takes into consideration his entire body of work, blocking, WR on a run 1st, 2nd and 3rd team, QB's of the likes of Kordell, O'Donnell, Maddox etc. then he might get in if there is a weak HOF class.

I don't think he does it sadly but that's ok, he is/was a great player and if there was a HOVG (Hall of Very Good) he'd be a 1st ballot.

NKySteeler
06-01-2008, 04:24 PM
Yes, JC.... Good post....

...Ward IS clutch, and the numbers definitely prove it... Then, toss in the times where you've seen him play hurt/injured, with the emotion of a true competitor... That, IMO, is what makes him clutch... He battles right down to the end. ... Aching back, injured leg, it doesn't matter... If he can walk, you'll see him back out there. Sometimes that smile seems more like a grimace of pain, but he will go the distance...

costanza2k1
06-01-2008, 04:26 PM
I'm afraid Chavez maybe right. The NFL won't look at his toughness, being clutch, all around solid WR...they will look at stats respective to the other NFL receivers not just team history. Hopefully we can get into another bowl and win it...when he gets there he will be solid. It will be interesting to see how his numbers grow/decline this year with the other weapons around him.

NKySteeler
06-01-2008, 04:43 PM
I don't know stan...

Career numbers:

Ward: 719/8737-65
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/p ... atsId=4323 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=4323)

Plex: 470/7391-51
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/p ... atsId=5037 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5037)

T.O.: 882/13,070-129
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrell_Owens

Moss: 774/12,193-124
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/p ... yerId=1433 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=1433)

Harrison: 1,042/13,944-123
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Harrison

...Maybe not the best career numbers, but combined w/the MVP, and effort, I say yes...

BURGH86STEEL
06-01-2008, 04:57 PM
I think Hines should go into the HOF. I doubt the HOF voters will put him in. If Cris Carter and Monk did not get in when they were supposed to, the voters will have a very hard time putting Hines there. They will overlook that fact that he put up decent numbers in a predominantly run offense. There are times when the HOF selection committee is a joke.

costanza2k1
06-01-2008, 05:15 PM
I don't know stan...

Career numbers:

Ward: 719/8737-65
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/p ... atsId=4323 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=4323)

Plex: 470/7391-51
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/p ... atsId=5037 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5037)

T.O.: 882/13,070-129
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrell_Owens

Moss: 774/12,193-124
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/p ... yerId=1433 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=1433)

Harrison: 1,042/13,944-123
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Harrison

...Maybe not the best career numbers, but combined w/the MVP, and effort, I say yes...


would've helped if I would've looked at the numbers first :oops: I change my stance a bit, I do think he'll still need another Superbowl win, doesn't need to be the MVP just a team win and he's in. I mean what's not to like about him, guy gives it his all and is always smiling when he plays...he truly enjoys the game and makes it better for fans like me.

NKySteeler
06-01-2008, 05:26 PM
I think the "10,000" plateau is a measuring stick as well....

Chavezz
06-01-2008, 08:05 PM
I don't know stan...

Career numbers:

Ward: 719/8737-65
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/p ... atsId=4323 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=4323)

Plex: 470/7391-51
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/p ... atsId=5037 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5037)

T.O.: 882/13,070-129
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrell_Owens

Moss: 774/12,193-124
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/p ... yerId=1433 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=1433)

Harrison: 1,042/13,944-123
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Harrison

...Maybe not the best career numbers, but combined w/the MVP, and effort, I say yes...

Now put up Torry Holt, Issac Bruce, Chad Johnson, Jerry Porter, Derrick Mason and any other #1 WR on their team and you'll see my argument.

Is Wards numbers better than theirs? Probably except for maybe Holt's or Bruce's but that's my point. Are they HOF better than these other guys?

So you got about 5-6 guys in total that are very comparable eligible around the same time. Then you have to figure the guys like Fitzgeralg, Roy Williams, Andre Johnson and other young guys that will be eligible 2-3 years after Ward hangs it up.

Not trying to be down on Ward at all, I probably defend him more than most but I'm just trying to be realistic.

NKySteeler
06-01-2008, 08:17 PM
...and other young guys that will be eligible 2-3 years after Ward hangs it up.

Then maybe you just hit the nail on the head.... It will depend on WHEN he is eligible, compared to others...

Chavezz
06-01-2008, 08:21 PM
...and other young guys that will be eligible 2-3 years after Ward hangs it up.

Then maybe you just hit the nail on the head.... It will depend on WHEN he is eligible, compared to others...

I think that's the key. It needs to be in a class where he is either the only or one of two WR's. They aren't going to put 3 WR's in on the same year would they?

NKySteeler
06-01-2008, 08:33 PM
They aren't going to put 3 WR's in on the same year would they?

I don't think so.... Regardless how good they are.... Someone or two of them (in this situation) would probably be left out, IMO.

SteelHoss
06-01-2008, 08:43 PM
I love Hines Ward. He's been a work horse and undoubtely a clutch player. Another Super Bowl and some more pro-bowls would'nt hurt his resume before HOF voters though.

Flasteel
06-01-2008, 09:37 PM
It's hard to argue that he's some type of lock, especially when you stack up the numbers, but the position does take more into account than simply that. As NKy mentioned, throw in the Super Bowl MVP and the fact that he has for the better part of a decade been considered the best blocking receiver in the game and I think you've established HoF credentials...but it's certainly debatable at this point.

I vote yes, but I am a card-carrying homer. :D

proudpittsburgher
06-01-2008, 11:00 PM
Remind me again. Who on that list has a Super Bowl MVP trophy in their case? :D

I really don't get the mentality of those who bash Ward or speak ill of him. He epitomizes toughness and as you did a fine job of detailing J C, he's as clutch as they come. While I don't know the man personally, it seems pretty obvious that he's at least as good of a man off the field as he is a warrior on it.


Agree completely. I really don't know what people want out of a receiver, and it's what I hate most about idiots like Mark Madden and his ilk.

fordfixer
06-02-2008, 02:25 AM
Yet another Steeler to be proud of. This is quite a statement... My All Time Favorite Steeler Receiver Ever.
Agreed :D

AngryAsian
06-02-2008, 03:28 AM
It would be a travesty to have a scumbag like Mike Irvin in the Hall and not have Hines in there. Irvin might have two more SB rings than Hines, but when you look at Hines' numbers coming from a franchise that has had a run only type mentality to its offense, no franchise qb to be in sync with and surpass two other franchise HOF receivers like Swann and Stallworth.... how could you argue with that resume.

RuthlessBurgher
06-02-2008, 01:52 PM
I was surprised to see only 2 TD's in 14 playoff games for Marvin Harrison. Hines has 6 more TD's in 3 fewer games. And Harrison had Peyton as his QB for his entire career. Hines has been through Tomczak, Stewart, Graham, and Maddox before Ben showed up.

SteelHoss
06-02-2008, 02:14 PM
If I had a vote, Hines would have mine. However, I truly believe that there is alot of Steeler bias out there. IMO Donnie Shell should be in the Hall as should LC Greenwood.
The national sports media frustrates me with how it constantly overlooks Pittsburgh professional athletes. Roberto Clemente was a prime example. He never got the recognition he deserved until the '71 WS. Clemente got his props during that series.
Writers and broadcasters including Curt Gowdy where wondering where the Great Roberto had been hiding.
Not to take anything away from his talent, but Plaxico is now a big star because of his exposure in the Big "A."

RuthlessBurgher
06-02-2008, 02:25 PM
If I had a vote, Hines would have mine. However, I truly believe that there is alot of Steeler bias out there. IMO Donnie Shell should be in the Hall as should LC Greenwood.
The national sports media frustrates me with how it constantly overlooks Pittsburgh professional athletes. Roberto Clemente was a prime example. He never got the recognition he deserved until the '71 WS. Clemente got his props during that series.
Writers and broadcasters including Curt Gowdy where wondering where the Great Roberto had been hiding.
Not to take anything away from his talent, but Plaxico is now a big star because of his exposure in the Big "A."

Dirt Dawson was a big of a lock as I could have imagined when he retired. He's barely getting consideration as a finalist now, though. I'm confused. :?

MeetJoeGreene
06-02-2008, 02:31 PM
If I had a vote, Hines would have mine. However, I truly believe that there is alot of Steeler bias out there. IMO Donnie Shell should be in the Hall as should LC Greenwood.
The national sports media frustrates me with how it constantly overlooks Pittsburgh professional athletes. Roberto Clemente was a prime example. He never got the recognition he deserved until the '71 WS. Clemente got his props during that series.
Writers and broadcasters including Curt Gowdy where wondering where the Great Roberto had been hiding.
Not to take anything away from his talent, but Plaxico is now a big star because of his exposure in the Big "A."

Dirt Dawson was a big of a lock as I could have imagined when he retired. He's barely getting consideration as a finalist now, though. I'm confused. :?

$$$$$

SteelHoss
06-02-2008, 02:41 PM
If I had a vote, Hines would have mine. However, I truly believe that there is alot of Steeler bias out there. IMO Donnie Shell should be in the Hall as should LC Greenwood.
The national sports media frustrates me with how it constantly overlooks Pittsburgh professional athletes. Roberto Clemente was a prime example. He never got the recognition he deserved until the '71 WS. Clemente got his props during that series.
Writers and broadcasters including Curt Gowdy where wondering where the Great Roberto had been hiding.
Not to take anything away from his talent, but Plaxico is now a big star because of his exposure in the Big "A."

Dirt Dawson was a big of a lock as I could have imagined when he retired. He's barely getting consideration as a finalist now, though. I'm confused. :?


Like I said, the HOF voters are biased against the Steelers. We already have a wing at the HOF. Demonti Dawson took the center position to new levels of play. He was arguably the best center to ever play the game.

motter1975
06-02-2008, 04:05 PM
I would think that since Hines has surpassed John Stallworth (another HOFer) to become the Steeler's all time leading receiver in most categories, this alone should make him Hall of Fame worthy. He's also done it in less time than Stallworth did.

I understand what y'all are saying about who among his contemporaries he'll have to be compared to, but I would think the selection committee would take into consideration being the best your team has ever had at your position (stats wise).

Just my thoughts.

RuthlessBurgher
06-02-2008, 04:23 PM
I would think that since Hines has surpassed John Stallworth (another HOFer) to become the Steeler's all time leading receiver in most categories, this alone should make him Hall of Fame worthy. He's also done it in less time than Stallworth did.

I understand what y'all are saying about who among his contemporaries he'll have to be compared to, but I would think the selection committee would take into consideration being the best your team has ever had at your position (stats wise).

Just my thoughts.

"Best your team has ever had at your position" is not the way it works. The Broncos never had any Hall of Famers until Elway got in. So the best player they've ever had at every position other than QB was not in the Hall (until Gary Zimmerman gets inducted this summer...of course, he was a Viking for the first half of his career too).

Iron Shiek
06-02-2008, 04:41 PM
I would think that since Hines has surpassed John Stallworth (another HOFer) to become the Steeler's all time leading receiver in most categories, this alone should make him Hall of Fame worthy. He's also done it in less time than Stallworth did.

I understand what y'all are saying about who among his contemporaries he'll have to be compared to, but I would think the selection committee would take into consideration being the best your team has ever had at your position (stats wise).

Just my thoughts.


Best your team has ever had at your position? You can chalk up no Stains getting into the HOF for the rest of the NFL's life then. (not that any in the past were that good anyway...)

As for Hines, everyone has already mentioned everything about him that makes him worthy. I will just say one thing: when you are watching a Steeler game, and EVERY game the announcers mention some facet of the game that he brings (i.e. his blocking), then people take notice. He is widely known for basically "revolutionizing" that aspect of the WR position. That kind of achievement, along with his very good stats and SBMVP does it for me. And with his penchant for blocking being well known, I could surely see some voters taking that into account.

However he does have to overcome the "bias". I agree that there could be an inadvertant hesitance to continue to add Steelers. I hope that isn't the case though.

AngryAsian
06-02-2008, 04:43 PM
1 more SuperBowl ring and I would think that would get him in the Hall. That was the rationale some of the analysts used when discussing the induction of Irvin.... not the his numbers were stellar but he was a part of a SB dynasty in the 90s.

motter1975
06-02-2008, 05:10 PM
I would think that since Hines has surpassed John Stallworth (another HOFer) to become the Steeler's all time leading receiver in most categories, this alone should make him Hall of Fame worthy. He's also done it in less time than Stallworth did.

I understand what y'all are saying about who among his contemporaries he'll have to be compared to, but I would think the selection committee would take into consideration being the best your team has ever had at your position (stats wise).

Just my thoughts.

"Best your team has ever had at your position" is not the way it works. The Broncos never had any Hall of Famers until Elway got in. So the best player they've ever had at every position other than QB was not in the Hall (until Gary Zimmerman gets inducted this summer...of course, he was a Viking for the first half of his career too).

Yes, but when you surpass the accomplishments of another HOFer who WAS the best the team had at that position, wouldn't you think that should go a LONG way to getting you in the HOF. Not saying that just because you're the best in a long line of mediocre players your team has had playing the position you should get in, but if you surpass a HOFer, I think you've got a pretty good argument for why you belong.

As another, non-Steelers example, say by the end of his career, Brian Urlacher has surpassed what Mike Singletary and Dick Butkus acomplished as Bears, wouldn't you think that would go a long way to showing that Urlacher deserves to be in the Hall of Fame?

Just my opinion.

Steelworth
06-02-2008, 06:59 PM
JC, nice to see this not turning into a 35 page pissing match like on SN.

One thing I always enjoyed there though was you putting Crash in his place when it came to Hines. :D His irrational hate for Hines Ward always clouded his usually good debating skills.

Anyways, I wouldn't want anyone else on my team in a crucial 3rd and long situation in the final moments with the big game on the line.

SteelForce
06-02-2008, 07:06 PM
As it stands now, and I HATE to say this, but Hines isn't getting in. There is a clear and undeniable bias against Steelers, and the numbers give the voters the cover they need to vote against him and pretend the Steeler bias doesn't exist.

Do I believe he's worthy?? Absolutely. But watching Donnie Shell, and LC and Dawson abd a half dozen others get passed over for inferior players year after year has finally eroded my confidence in credentials alone being the sole criteria for induction.

RuthlessBurgher
06-02-2008, 07:36 PM
I would think that since Hines has surpassed John Stallworth (another HOFer) to become the Steeler's all time leading receiver in most categories, this alone should make him Hall of Fame worthy. He's also done it in less time than Stallworth did.

I understand what y'all are saying about who among his contemporaries he'll have to be compared to, but I would think the selection committee would take into consideration being the best your team has ever had at your position (stats wise).

Just my thoughts.

"Best your team has ever had at your position" is not the way it works. The Broncos never had any Hall of Famers until Elway got in. So the best player they've ever had at every position other than QB was not in the Hall (until Gary Zimmerman gets inducted this summer...of course, he was a Viking for the first half of his career too).

Yes, but when you surpass the accomplishments of another HOFer who WAS the best the team had at that position, wouldn't you think that should go a LONG way to getting you in the HOF. Not saying that just because you're the best in a long line of mediocre players your team has had playing the position you should get in, but if you surpass a HOFer, I think you've got a pretty good argument for why you belong.

As another, non-Steelers example, say by the end of his career, Brian Urlacher has surpassed what Mike Singletary and bad word Butkus acomplished as Bears, wouldn't you think that would go a long way to showing that Urlacher deserves to be in the Hall of Fame?

Just my opinion.

Bad Word Butkus sounds even cooler than Bad Word LeBeau. Could have been a nickname of that era, kinda like Night Train Lane. :lol:

Slapstick
06-05-2008, 10:01 AM
If Hines plays four more years and averages 70-75 receptions per year, he will end his career with 1,000 catches...

If he can do that, it would be difficult to keep him out of the HoF...

SteelerOfDeVille
06-05-2008, 02:36 PM
Somehow I don't think this will turn into a 35 page thread and generate the arguments that it did on SN.
Why SN and not Hines? :P

papillon
06-05-2008, 02:54 PM
Somehow I don't think this will turn into a 35 page thread and generate the arguments that it did on SN.
Why SN and not Hines? :P

Oh no you didn't :twisted: :mrgreen:

Pappy

Shawn
06-05-2008, 03:32 PM
Excellent post JC...and I completely agree. And yes Ward is a HOFr right now.

AngryAsian
06-05-2008, 04:33 PM
Excellent post JC...and I completely agree. And yes Ward is a HOFr right now.


Johnny come lately from vacation. :lol: